Inept Guscott opinion once again.

First topic message reminder :

Hi Jerry, after Wilkinson and O' Connell shone in their respective Heineken Cup quarter-final matches, do you think Warren Gatland will have them in mind for his upcoming Lions selection now? Is it just too late in their careers? MattB
Hi MattB, I can't fault Jonny Wilkinson's or Paul O'Connell's performances at the weekend. Both were big influences in their teams' wins. At fly-half the Lions aren't overly blessed; Sexton is a definite but then it gets thin with Flood, Farrell and Biggar - so Wilkinson must be in with a big shout.
Second row is very competitive and I'm not so sure O'Connell will make it, but his experience would help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22070244

So Biggar is thin is he Jeremy? What a sad comment, especially when you compare Sexton to Biggars performance in the 6 Nations, Sexton was miles behind the 6 Nations winner. Wilkinson in with a shot bwhahahahahaha. Gatland ain't gonna make the same mistake as that numpty in 2003.

My stats quite clearly show that Farrell is more experienced than Madigan. They are not similar.

Madigan seems to spend a lot of time on the bench as cover for Sexton.

How many minutes did Madigan play in the HC finals?

Farrell is a non attacking, in the pocket, purely there for goalkicking 10. It would be suicidal to have him anywhere near the tests. He would be out of his depth as a backline general. Can't see how that isnt obvious. Madigan hasnt played test rugby so why would he go? Leinsters opponents dont include Oz do they?

Sexton seems the favourite but isnt he still injured? What kind of prep is that? Anyway you look at it the 10 pos isnt looking good.No one can even agree amongst 5-6 players, and even then the best choice is injured...phew.

I am not even sure Farrell will tour, though he has an obvious advocate.

100%beefy wrote:I am not even sure Farrell will tour, though he has an obvious advocate.

He's a safe bet, and goes well in the 6N type matches. Its just this is a step up and safe doesnt win Lions tours. In 09 the Lions were only competitive when the took it to the Boks. Bold selections will be needed over safe ones.

Respected ex player and pundit v one eyed fan. Guscott wins.

Fair comment really, "thin" was perhaps the wrong word.

Bigger shouldn't tour imo, I've seen little to suggest he's good enough.

Sexton, Farrell & Laidlaw as 9/10 cover.

Bit early on POC but if fit he should tour as he's immense, no better lock in world rugby when fully firing.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Bit early on POC but if fit he should tour as he's immense, no better lock in world rugby when fully firing.

Tend to agree with that. The Ireland Oz match in '11 was POC at his inspirational best. He was so fired up and dragged his side with him. In other matches he's been the shell of that performance however.

Taylorman wrote:Farrell is a non attacking, in the pocket, purely there for goalkicking 10. It would be suicidal to have him anywhere near the tests. He would be out of his depth as a backline general. Can't see how that isnt obvious. Madigan hasnt played test rugby so why would he go? Leinsters opponents dont include Oz do they?

Sexton seems the favourite but isnt he still injured? What kind of prep is that? Anyway you look at it the 10 pos isnt looking good.No one can even agree amongst 5-6 players, and even then the best choice is injured...phew.

I agree. Also if Gatland plans 2 FHs and a utility player, that may limit him even more. Wherever he might have played, he is absolutely not a centre. So he needs to be top 2 FH in my book. Sexton is clearly number one, then, who knows. I don't particularly rate Biggar and don't think he's any better than Farrell really. Shame Madigan hasn't had more HC/international experience, he looks top draw to me.

Hood83 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Farrell is a non attacking, in the pocket, purely there for goalkicking 10. It would be suicidal to have him anywhere near the tests. He would be out of his depth as a backline general. Can't see how that isnt obvious. Madigan hasnt played test rugby so why would he go? Leinsters opponents dont include Oz do they?

Sexton seems the favourite but isnt he still injured? What kind of prep is that? Anyway you look at it the 10 pos isnt looking good.No one can even agree amongst 5-6 players, and even then the best choice is injured...phew.

I agree. Also if Gatland plans 2 FHs and a utility player, that may limit him even more. Wherever he might have played, he is absolutely not a centre. So he needs to be top 2 FH in my book. Sexton is clearly number one, then, who knows. I don't particularly rate Biggar and don't think he's any better than Farrell really. Shame Madigan hasn't had more HC/international experience, he looks top draw to me.

Yeah you just cannot go from familiar club surroundings and conditions to oversaes internationals in the SH as a 10 and expect to lead the charge. The ozzie smarts would totally confound a FH in that situation. 10 is so crucial for this tour, particularly if up against Genia, Cooper and possibly Leleifano at 9, 10 and 12, all 3 playing top notch at the mo, albeit at sxv, but they'll slip into test rugby seamlessly.

beshocked wrote:[b]I might be wrong but I thought Sexton was the number 1 fly half for Leinster.

Em....... that time is getting shorter and shorter.

Convention suggests there is always a Number 1 in any position. Reality with Leinster is that there are two No10s that bring their own big game. There is no gasp of panic when either is named.

Next season? Well, we'll wait for next season when it happens; increasingly being like a revolutionary year of change for Leinster!

But I digress. Back to that Number 1 business... sometimes it's true, sometimes its merely convention.

Taylorman wrote:

Yeah you just cannot go from familiar club surroundings and conditions to oversaes internationals in the SH as a 10 and expect to lead the charge.

Well whether you can or can't expect it...it can happen.

Not from NH club rugby to a successful win against the SH- no chance. Wins are rare enough let alone having a 10 with club form alone being able to carry a series, away. Dreams however, are free, I agree.

Besides, what will Gstland be telling the Ozzies...? 'We couldnt find a suitable 10 from any of the four test sides so we thought we'd go watch some club rugby' geez... can see Cooper and the buzzards circling overhead now.
Its true Cooper and Genia have only been playing sxv, but at test level they have made oppositions reel and they are both hitting form at the mo, are fresh and certainly looking for more.

I say it will be Sexton, Farrell, Biggar for 10. 2 from those if only 2 go.

Taylorman wrote:Not from NH club rugby to a successful win against the SH- no chance. Wins are rare enough let alone having a 10 with club form alone being able to carry a series, away. Dreams however, are free, I agree.

Ahh you're adding a bundle to your initial point there Taylorman. Even a seasoned veteran NH flyhalf might be under pressure trying to pull off a series win in SH. So no bownie points for experience there, I'm afraid. Which clears the air to repeat the initial point...a guy of Madigan's temperament could easily 'lead the charge'. Series win? Hmmm - up in the air; but 'lead the charge' - yep, doable.

Won't happen against Oz, and why wasnt Madigan playing in Sextons place...is he considered no. 3?

Ive seen him play before and yes hes very good but the order of whats being asked here is well above anything hes achieved so far.

Taylorman wrote:Won't happen against Oz, and why wasnt Madigan playing in Sextons place...is he considered no. 3?

Ive seen him play before and yes hes very good but the order of whats being asked here is well above anything hes achieved so far.

Every schoolkid has to play club for a first time, every club guy has to play Province for a a first time, every Provincial player has to play International for a first time, and every International (well, in the top six sides in Europe anyway) have to play down SH way for a first time.

Is the Lions more important than an Ireland v Australia game? Not in my book, it isn't. So Madigan, 23 years of age and held back in Province only because Sexton was doing the business, is no pup going into a wolves den...he's an already International who, if chosen, will be going on a first jaunt down south - has to happen sometime - now would be as good a time as any.

Some would say it might be even the best time to try out the sun down there, given that the Lions is considered an amalgem of the 'best' of the 'home' Nations. Better to learn with a good bunch of men than without

Yes agree with that from an experience point of view- not from having a competitve advantage.

From an international rugby sense outside the NH the Lions are deemed bigger than any of the four home unions singularly- i.e.- Oz will place far more emphasis on this tour than the Welsh tour- same with the 09' Lions in SA rather than the England tour last year. So will the media and ticket sales so in one sense not having complete unity amongst players and fans in the NH only serves to hurt the chances of success.

Ideally it should serve as an opportunity to showcase NH rugby as a whole, one of unity. But it seems to polarize opinion more than anything else.

Its a pity and its something we can only criticise from a logical point of view as we don't have the equivalent so we have to take the lead and assume we would have the same.

Taylorman wrote:Yes agree with that from an experience point of view- not from having a competitve advantage.

From an international rugby sense outside the NH the Lions are deemed bigger than any of the four home unions singularly- i.e.- Oz will place far more emphasis on this tour than the Welsh tour- same with the 09' Lions in SA rather than the England tour last year. So will the media and ticket sales so in one sense not having complete unity amongst players and fans in the NH only serves to hurt the chances of success.

Ideally it should serve as an opportunity to showcase NH rugby as a whole, one of unity. But it seems to polarize opinion more than anything else.

Its a pity and its something we can only criticise from a logical point of view as we don't have the equivalent so we have to take the lead and assume we would have the same.

Maybe that's where it (Lions) needs to go...... toward NH rugby as distinct from 'home' nations rugby. France and Italy joining the club and thus making it a smaller club for the Nations that have had the bulk of it since it began. Hmm, that mightn't go down so well in some quarters!

But yes too, the lack of unity within the Lions as four Nations fans try to juggle favourites and as the Lions coach himself tries to juggle expectations (and some of the role is definitely political tiptoeing, whatever the publicity might say) can give the SH opponent a bit of an edge. But there you go, that's probably as it should be considering its one Nation taking on four.

Every 4 years we have the World cup, and every other four the Lions tour.
Why not even up the demographics that go into these sides as a NH SH series instead. The NH can still retain the Lions name even if they open up to France, Italy etc.

In the SH we use the four year period as build up, somehow accrediting points to players that can qualify for selection, weighted towards the year of the series. The matches can be shared between the 3 or 4 or ? SH countries.

That way we have something everyone can be part of, but no one owns. Its contributory and a celebration of the game rather than divisive in nature. Coaches across the countries have input and selection is gradual based on performance over time, with perhaps minimum contributions guaranteed.

This way you remove the national advantages and replace it with something with more buy in, in terms of the spirit of the game...either that or perhaps it'll create World war 3 instead...

Taylorman wrote:Every 4 years we have the World cup, and every other four the Lions tour.
Why not even up the demographics that go into these sides as a NH SH series instead. The NH can still retain the Lions name even if they open up to France, Italy etc.

In the SH we use the four year period as build up, somehow accrediting points to players that can qualify for selection, weighted towards the year of the series. The matches can be shared between the 3 or 4 or ? SH countries.

That way we have something everyone can be part of, but no one owns. Its contributory and a celebration of the game rather than divisive in nature. Coaches across the countries have input and selection is gradual based on performance over time, with perhaps minimum contributions guaranteed.

This way you remove the national advantages and replace it with something with more buy in, in terms of the spirit of the game...either that or perhaps it'll create World war 3 instead...

Now there's a good idea, Taylorman. But yes, I can also see WW3 in it too

Taylorman wrote:

100%beefy wrote:I am not even sure Farrell will tour, though he has an obvious advocate.

He's a safe bet, and goes well in the 6N type matches. Its just this is a step up and safe doesnt win Lions tours. In 09 the Lions were only competitive when the took it to the Boks. Bold selections will be needed over safe ones.

The Lions don't win Lions tours, not since 1997 anyway.

I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with Guscott.

I don't believe there is a real form no.1 contender for the Lions 10 jersey at the moment. If Sexton is fit and playing he will probably go, but after that...
Biggar, Farrell, Madigan, Flood, none of these strike me as players who the Aussies will fear and are all at a similar level in my opinion.

Having said that I've liked Madigan when I've seen him so I would take him and then after that I think Farrell is likely to be involved in winning silverwear for Sarries so he will go too. Then its just hoping Sexton is back.

I think Biggar will miss out as Gatland has avoided picking him in the past and I dont think his form has been good enough to force Gatland to look at him.

As with many positions for the Lions, there seems to be a lack of in-form options I think.