POC gets off for kicking Kearney's head

by brennomac Mon 15 Apr 2013, 2:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just announced that POC isn't going to get any sanction for the kick into Dave Kearney's head at the weekend.

Nobody believes that POC intended to kick Kearney but his action was clumsy bordering on the reckless and he should have been cited. Somehow if this wasn't a match between two Irish teams (Leinster were never going to cite POC)and was a HC match against a French or English team - and the citing officer wasn't Irish - he would have been cited. Still might have got off with a warning but somehow I think Paulie and Munster are very lucky that he's going to be there for the Clermont game.

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 11:04 am

Biltong wrote:So I suppose better a shin to the head than a boot?

What, is it ,ike rather being hit with a toothpick than the piece of meat at the end of it?

Your shin wouldn't have the full force of your leg behind it and you wouldn't be able to control/aim the direction as well as your boot.

Look at it this way - if you were trying to harm someone/defend yourself and you could only use your shin or your foot - which would you think would be the most useful?

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 11:07 am

Biltong wrote:It all comes down to the brass tax.

Is it acceptable for a player to kick at a ball that is mere inches from a player's face?

And in this case a player that isn't even moving?

The answer is an emphatic NO. It is dangerous and reckless to contemplate, and should be eradicated from the game. It is even more dangerous than rucking, it is more dangerous than a high tackle.

Therefor actions such as this should be harshly penalised in order to discourage players from taking a swing at a ball lying on the ground near a player's head.

He was moving - he was placing the ball out - but normally you would have someone there to protect it (and the player).

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 11:11 am

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:so what are you saying now. because the TJ didnt see it poc didnt kick him in the head, Sorry sorry i know you have clarified already. Shin him in the head.

I'm saying a lot of people there on the spot (and the citing commissioner later) didn't see him kick Kearney in the head probably because he didn't kick him in the head. He kicked the ball (and while kicking the ball, his shin hit Kearney's head).

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 11:17 am

Sin é wrote:
Biltong wrote:It all comes down to the brass tax.

Is it acceptable for a player to kick at a ball that is mere inches from a player's face?

And in this case a player that isn't even moving?

The answer is an emphatic NO. It is dangerous and reckless to contemplate, and should be eradicated from the game. It is even more dangerous than rucking, it is more dangerous than a high tackle.

Therefor actions such as this should be harshly penalised in order to discourage players from taking a swing at a ball lying on the ground near a player's head.

He was moving - he was placing the ball out - but normally you would have someone there to protect it (and the player).

And normally in that situation where a player is on the ground trying to place the ball back for his team, the first opposition player there would get over it and try to steal it and win turnover ball, not aim a wild kick at it.

by **Biltong** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 11:20 am

Sin é wrote:
GoodinTightSpaces wrote:so what are you saying now. because the TJ didnt see it poc didnt kick him in the head, Sorry sorry i know you have clarified already. Shin him in the head.

I'm saying a lot of people there on the spot (and the citing commissioner later) didn't see him kick Kearney in the head probably because he didn't kick him in the head. He kicked the ball (and while kicking the ball, his shin hit Kearney's head).

you are missing the point mate.

It doesn't matter what he connected Kearney with, it is the action that is reckless.

by Mickado Tue 16 Apr 2013, 11:26 am

Sin é wrote:
Biltong wrote:So I suppose better a shin to the head than a boot?

What, is it ,ike rather being hit with a toothpick than the piece of meat at the end of it?

Your shin wouldn't have the full force of your leg behind it and you wouldn't be able to control/aim the direction as well as your boot.

Look at it this way - if you were trying to harm someone/defend yourself and you could only use your shin or your foot - which would you think would be the most useful?

Your instep (where your shin meets the middle of the top of your foot) would probably cause the most damage. That's the sweetspot for any kicker, POC toe (eventually) made contact with the ball, after his instep wrapped around Kearney's head.

You didn’t answer my question though, would you only attend to a teammate who had been kicked unconscious if you thought it was done with malice?

If you wouldn’t (and would attend to them regardless) then you’d have to assume that the Leinster players (including Dave’s brother) either didn’t see it happen (possible) or just didn’t care that he’d been kicked (highly improbable). If they didn’t see it, then their reaction to it (or lack of) is completely irrelevant in the context of this discussion i.e. should there have been a citing.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 16 Apr 2013, 11:36 am

There are a number of martial arts that instruct you to kick with your shin as it is stronger than your foot, MMA for instance.

Also it is a simple law of the lever, the end of the leaver having the most swing and therefore the most power. Guessing that POC's leg is about 3' or so, he only probably lost out on about 6" of power which equates to about 12% of the power.

Can you imagine someone kicking you that hard in the head with a solid bone?

Again, accidental (he didn't mean to hit Kearney) but the chances of him connecting with the ball and not connecting with Kearney in doing so were practically nil.

by thebluesmancometh Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:20 pm

Sin é wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:hahaha

Well it was more than reckless, because reckless implies he didn't mean to hurt or do anything that can hurt another player, but he clearly makes the decision to kick through kearneys head which is more than reckless IMHO

Well, he missed then, because he didn't kick through Kearney's head.

I'm confused sin e lets look at the facts...

1, Is POC view obstructed in anyway as to the position of the ball in relation to the head?

2, From POC's view is the head in between him and the ball?

3, Does POC make contact with the head before the ball (with whatever part of the leg)

4, Does Kearney receive a blow worthy of taking him away from the game?

They are the four questions I need answering, and IMHO the answers go...

No

Yes

Yes

Yes

Enough to make me think POC decided to go for the ball despite a head being in the way, hence kicking through the head.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:21 pm

This decision is nothing short of disgraceful. The citing official has gone beyond his remit and make a mockery of a process and made a political decision on the eve of a massive European club game. It is not up to this citing official to decide on intent or mitigating factors- that would be the panels jurisdiction. The citing official must decide if POC has a case to answer. He absolutely does, it is as clear as day. Therefore POC should have been afforded the opportunity to defend his actions. Clearly he didn't mean to kick Kearney's head and there was no intent. It was however reckless and given his precious disciplinary issues POC may have been banned. Personally I don't think he should have been for this offence. However the issue here is that a clear process has been abused and a citing official acting beyond his remit. It is an absolute disgrace.

by LordDowlais Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:23 pm

As I have said earlier, it does look like an accident, but there is an opportunity there to do some damage to a player, weather this was POC intention only he will ever know. What I will say though is this, the man does have a history of "loosing it", I remember him getting sent off against the Ospreys one year for punching a player off the ball, so he does have a sinister side to him, but I am all for giving people the benefit of the doubt and will say that he genuinely went for the ball with no intention of hurting anybody, but in all honesty only POC will know what his real motive was.

by **Biltong** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:24 pm

Hookisms, I think any action such as this deserves a ban irrespective of the player or the occasion.

I don't care if the ban is 1 week or ten, the point is the next player is going to get away with this on the basis that he had no intent, and another got away with the same action.

You won't remove this type of action from the game if you don't take a stance as the judiciary officer.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:30 pm

Biltong wrote:Hookisms, I think any action such as this deserves a ban irrespective of the player or the occasion.

I don't care if the ban is 1 week or ten, the point is the next player is going to get away with this on the basis that he had no intent, and another got away with the same action.

You won't remove this type of action from the game if you don't take a stance as the judiciary officer.

I agree, you can't have playing the ball while seriously harming another getting in to the game. It will turn a lot of people off rugby.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:32 pm

Biltong you are making the same mistake as everyone else on this thread by placing yourself into the disciplinary committee. To me whether he should have for banned or not is not the issue. Personally I think from looking at the evidence he may have escaped a ban, perhaps a couple of weeks. But that is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. A citing official in this case just has to decide if there is a case to answer. He doesn't look at intent, if POC was sorry, his precious record, if it was shin or boot. No, those are factors for the disciplinary committee to take into account. This citing official has acted beyond his remit in deciding that POC shouldn't even be called to give an account of the event. We have seen plenty of players banned for making contact with the eye area even when it was accidental and there was no intent. An IRFU official has made a clearly political decision. It is absolutely disgraceful and a clear abuse of the process. Whether or not POC should be banned is an entirely different question altogether.

by **Biltong** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:38 pm

Hookisms, I am only looking at the action and how it can be prevented, nothing else.

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:39 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Sin é wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:hahaha

Well it was more than reckless, because reckless implies he didn't mean to hurt or do anything that can hurt another player, but he clearly makes the decision to kick through kearneys head which is more than reckless IMHO

Well, he missed then, because he didn't kick through Kearney's head.

I'm confused sin e lets look at the facts...

1, Is POC view obstructed in anyway as to the position of the ball in relation to the head?

No. I'd ask can you see what POC saw?

2, From POC's view is the head in between him and the ball?
No.

3, Does POC make contact with the head before the ball (with whatever part of the leg).
No.

4, Does Kearney receive a blow worthy of taking him away from the game?
We don't know as to which will take him away from the game. He got a blow to the head when he hit the ground and then he got a blow to the face from POC's shin.

They are the four questions I need answering, and IMHO the answers go...

No

Yes

Yes

Yes

Enough to make me think POC decided to go for the ball despite a head being in the way, hence kicking through the head.

by geoff998rugby Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:43 pm

Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:44 pm

Biltong, nothing can be done about this in the future if players aren't called to account for their actions. Whether POC should be banned or not is an interesting question and I don't really have any strong feelings one way or the other. But players must be called to account- there is a process to go through and on this occasion a citing official has circumvented that. There is a clear dereliction of duty here and someone working beyond there remit. How do expect to stop injuries like this happening in the future if players at snot called to account?

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:45 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Biltong you are making the same mistake as everyone else on this thread by placing yourself into the disciplinary committee. To me whether he should have for banned or not is not the issue. Personally I think from looking at the evidence he may have escaped a ban, perhaps a couple of weeks. But that is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. A citing official in this case just has to decide if there is a case to answer. He doesn't look at intent, if POC was sorry, his precious record, if it was shin or boot. No, those are factors for the disciplinary committee to take into account. This citing official has acted beyond his remit in deciding that POC shouldn't even be called to give an account of the event. We have seen plenty of players banned for making contact with the eye area even when it was accidental and there was no intent. An IRFU official has made a clearly political decision. It is absolutely disgraceful and a clear abuse of the process. Whether or not POC should be banned is an entirely different question altogether.

To me a Citing Officer is similar to a Director of Public Prosecutions who does decide if there is enough evidence that the likely hood of a court case there would be a prosecution (and that public money isn't being wasted in a hopeless case that has no merit).

Bear in mind as well, the Citing Officer isn't the only official who didn't see a need to take any action (Ref & Touch Judge).

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:46 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Biltong, nothing can be done about this in the future if players aren't called to account for their actions. Whether POC should be banned or not is an interesting question and I don't really have any strong feelings one way or the other. But players must be called to account- there is a process to go through and on this occasion a citing official has circumvented that. There is a clear dereliction of duty here and someone working beyond there remit. How do expect to stop injuries like this happening in the future if players at snot called to account?

That is a good point. Being cited doesn't mean punished (which I think a lot of us just take for granted) it means 'we have a few questions and wouldn't mind hearing your side of the story'.

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:52 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

I'm looking at it from the way the laws are laid out.

For example, a couple of years ago in a Leinster v Munster game, Jonathan Sexton made a deliberate kick to the head of Mafi (it was in retaliation for a hard tackle). Mafi got treatment for a wound to his eye (as well as a yellow card for his retaliation to Sexton). Sexton was later cited and got 2 weeks suspension (and that was a deliberate kick in the face).

Now tell me, what are the citing committee going to do with an accidental bang on the head?

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

by **Biltong** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:54 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Biltong, nothing can be done about this in the future if players aren't called to account for their actions. Whether POC should be banned or not is an interesting question and I don't really have any strong feelings one way or the other. But players must be called to account- there is a process to go through and on this occasion a citing official has circumvented that. There is a clear dereliction of duty here and someone working beyond there remit. How do expect to stop injuries like this happening in the future if players at snot called to account?

Essentially you agree with me, it must be stopped and it must have been cited. Once cited the only way to stop it from happening is to issue a ban, how big I don't care either, it is more to do with the fact that players must be aware they will be held accountable.

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:57 pm

Biltong wrote:Hookisms, I am only looking at the action and how it can be prevented, nothing else.

I think you have to bear in mind that was an instinctive action to get the ball. That is what every kid who takes up rugby is thought to do - compete for the ball. Impossible to legislate for instinct.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 16 Apr 2013, 12:58 pm

I would have banned him for 2-5 weeks, POC's not a dirty player but that was reckless and dangerous and it forced the guy to leave the pitch.

by **Biltong** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:01 pm

Sin é wrote:
Biltong wrote:Hookisms, I am only looking at the action and how it can be prevented, nothing else.

I think you have to bear in mind that was an instinctive action to get the ball. That is what every kid who takes up rugby is thought to do - compete for the ball. Impossible to legislate for instinct.

Yes your are correct, it was instinctive..........................for a soccer player.

Look, my kid plays u10 rugby, their instinct is to tuck the ball under the arm and run with it, if it is lying loose the instinct is to either dive on it or pick it up and run with it, if someone else has it, their instinct it to rip the ball away and run with it.

They don't have an instinct to kick it. Haven't seen it, they aren't being taught to kick it, in fact in 20 matches sonce last year, their fly half has managed one conversion in two seasons.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:04 pm

Biltong wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Biltong wrote:Hookisms, I am only looking at the action and how it can be prevented, nothing else.

I think you have to bear in mind that was an instinctive action to get the ball. That is what every kid who takes up rugby is thought to do - compete for the ball. Impossible to legislate for instinct.

Yes your are correct, it was instinctive..........................for a soccer player.

Look, my kid plays u10 rugby, their instinct is to tuck the ball under the arm and run with it, if it is lying loose the instinct is to either dive on it or pick it up and run with it, if someone else has it, their instinct it to rip the ball away and run with it.

They don't have an instinct to kick it. Haven't seen it, they aren't being taught to kick it, in fact in 20 matches sonce last year, their fly half has managed one conversion in two seasons.

Again agree completely with Biltong.
If anything you try to coach them not to kick it. Every coach has said "DIVE ON IT" thousands of times. To say he was coached to kick it is definitely incorrect. He didn't have opposition he could have actually picked it out of Kearney's hands.

by GunsGerms Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:13 pm

I think its fair enough that POC got off. I really cant see what was to be gained from or why he would want to kick DK in the head. My guess is it was just really clumsy. Not sure what the rules are on clumsiness however it looks to me like he was just trying to hack on the ball but in the heat of the moment got a head by accident. Id like to think thats what happened anyway.

There is possibly some truth in the complaint that because its POC he got off because it wouldnt be the first time he has. However, not sure the incident warrented much sanction anyway.

That said Im glad Drico slammed POC into the ground directly after the incident. Accident or no accident he needed to be shown that the Leinster boys look out for eachother.

by Mickado Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:16 pm

Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

I'm looking at it from the way the laws are laid out.

For example, a couple of years ago in a Leinster v Munster game, Jonathan Sexton made a deliberate kick to the head of Mafi (it was in retaliation for a hard tackle). Mafi got treatment for a wound to his eye (as well as a yellow card for his retaliation to Sexton). Sexton was later cited and got 2 weeks suspension (and that was a deliberate kick in the face).

Now tell me, what are the citing committee going to do with an accidental bang on the head?

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:16 pm

GunsGerms wrote:I think its fair enough that POC got off. I really cant see what was to be gained from or why he would want to kick DK in the head. My guess is it was just really clumsy. Not sure what the rules are on clumsiness however it looks to me like he was just trying to hack on the ball but in the heat of the moment got a head by accident. Id like to think thats what happened anyway.

There is possibly some truth in the complaint that because its POC he got off because it wouldnt be the first time he has. However, not sure the incident warrented much sanction anyway.

That said Im glad Drico slammed POC into the ground directly after the incident. Accident or no accident he needed to be shown that the Leinster boys look out for eachother.

For clumsiness read recklessness. As an example there was a Gloucester player banned a couple of seasons ago where he rucked a player who was laying on the wrong side, and accidentally caught him in the face. He was cited and the disciplinary panel accepted that he had not meant to make contact with the face, but that he was reckless as to whether that happened. I fail to see how POC's swinging leg is any different in all honesty.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:18 pm

Is there a clip of that incident Ozzy? Do you remember the Gloucester lad's name?

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:20 pm

I think it was Attwood, possibly in a European game.

by BlueMuff Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:22 pm

Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

by LeinsterFan4life Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:25 pm

BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

Thats about the third time you have said that.

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:27 pm

BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

Blue Muff - Why do you insist on turning this into a provincial argument? The likes of Biltong, Bluesman and Ozzy are also participating here and agree that POC deserved to be cited. Neither of them are irish supporters.

by Mickado Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:29 pm

You've to go back to 2010 for the last time Munster were wronged? And you show us a clip of a player committing an offence for which he WAS CITED AND BANNED!

At least Mafi was in a position to defend himself after it, unlike Kearney, Heary, Darcy and Cullen.

by GunsGerms Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:29 pm

BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

That was years ago. In the meantime:

Hayes got banned for stamping in Healys head. O'Connell got off.
O'Leary got off for a clothesline on Healy and laying him out.
Quinlan copped a small ban for eye gouging Cullen.

Most of the ill dicipline has come from Munster in recent years so not sure why you would bring up an incident involving Sexton years ago. Maybe look at the recent record of your own team before referencing ancient news.

by thebluesmancometh Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

Blue Muff - Why do you insist on turning this into a provincial argument? The likes of Biltong, Bluesman and Ozzy are also participating here and agree that POC deserved to be cited. Neither of them are irish supporters.

And I'm a big POC fan

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:30 pm

Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

I'm looking at it from the way the laws are laid out.

For example, a couple of years ago in a Leinster v Munster game, Jonathan Sexton made a deliberate kick to the head of Mafi (it was in retaliation for a hard tackle). Mafi got treatment for a wound to his eye (as well as a yellow card for his retaliation to Sexton). Sexton was later cited and got 2 weeks suspension (and that was a deliberate kick in the face).

Now tell me, what are the citing committee going to do with an accidental bang on the head?

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Well if you can't stomack mentioniong a similar type incident - how about Ronan O'Gara's recent one for kicking/hacking an Edinburgh player in the HCup.

The Judge said it was ridiculous he was cited for it in the first place and he was suspending him for a week because O'Gara had admitted doing it so he had to act on his admittance of guilt.

by thebluesmancometh Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:32 pm

Sin é wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:
Sin é wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:hahaha

Well it was more than reckless, because reckless implies he didn't mean to hurt or do anything that can hurt another player, but he clearly makes the decision to kick through kearneys head which is more than reckless IMHO

Well, he missed then, because he didn't kick through Kearney's head.

I'm confused sin e lets look at the facts...

1, Is POC view obstructed in anyway as to the position of the ball in relation to the head?

No. I'd ask can you see what POC saw?

2, From POC's view is the head in between him and the ball?
No.

3, Does POC make contact with the head before the ball (with whatever part of the leg).
No.

4, Does Kearney receive a blow worthy of taking him away from the game?
We don't know as to which will take him away from the game. He got a blow to the head when he hit the ground and then he got a blow to the face from POC's shin.

They are the four questions I need answering, and IMHO the answers go...

No

Yes

Yes

Yes

Enough to make me think POC decided to go for the ball despite a head being in the way, hence kicking through the head.

These answers make you look extremely foolish to anyone who ha watched the clip

by Mickado Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:33 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

That was years ago. In the meantime:

Hayes got banned for stamping in Healys head. O'Connell got off.
O'Leary got off for a clothesline on Healy and laying him out.
Quinlan copped a small ban for eye gouging Cullen.

Most of the ill dicipline has come from Munster in recent years so not sure why you would bring up an incident involving Sexton years ago. Maybe look at the recent record of your own team before referencing ancient news.

Mafi was suspended for a clothesline tackle on Darcy from behind too.

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:34 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

Blue Muff - Why do you insist on turning this into a provincial argument? The likes of Biltong, Bluesman and Ozzy are also participating here and agree that POC deserved to be cited. Neither of them are irish supporters.

In fairness - all they have seen is the isolated clip. Would I be right in saying that Bluesman is a Cardiff/Wales supporter and might see POC as a threat to Warburton's captaincy of the Lions*?

No harm in that - just that not everyone might not be as impartial as you claim!

by Mickado Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:35 pm

The Judge said it was ridiculous he was cited for it in the first place and he was suspending him for a week because O'Gara had admitted doing it so he had to act on his admittance of guilt.

A judge? Was this in court or something?

He said it was rediculous that he was cited but he still banned him? That's very odd.

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

Blue Muff - Why do you insist on turning this into a provincial argument? The likes of Biltong, Bluesman and Ozzy are also participating here and agree that POC deserved to be cited. Neither of them are irish supporters.

In fairness - all they have seen is the isolated clip. Would I be right in saying that Bluesman is a Cardiff/Wales supporter and might see POC as a threat to Warburton's captaincy of the Lions*?

No harm in that - just that not everyone might not be as impartial as you claim!

by **Biltong** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

Blue Muff - Why do you insist on turning this into a provincial argument? The likes of Biltong, Bluesman and Ozzy are also participating here and agree that POC deserved to be cited. Neither of them are irish supporters.

In fairness - all they have seen is the isolated clip. Would I be right in saying that Bluesman is a Cardiff/Wales supporter and might see POC as a threat to Warburton's captaincy of the Lions*?
No harm in that - just that not everyone might not be as impartial as you claim!

I suppose that is the standard response if nothing else works, eh?

So what would the motivation for my reasoning be?

by thebluesmancometh Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:37 pm

In fairness - all they have seen is the isolated clip. Would I be right in saying that Bluesman is a Cardiff/Wales supporter and might see POC as a threat to Warburton's Laugh

Robshaw, BOD's, AWJ's captaincy of the Lions*?

Come on... Foolish now turns to deluded!!

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:37 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

Blue Muff - Why do you insist on turning this into a provincial argument? The likes of Biltong, Bluesman and Ozzy are also participating here and agree that POC deserved to be cited. Neither of them are irish supporters.

In fairness - all they have seen is the isolated clip. Would I be right in saying that Bluesman is a Cardiff/Wales supporter and might see POC as a threat to Warburton's captaincy of the Lions*?

No harm in that - just that not everyone might not be as impartial as you claim!

Wow. Just when I thought you couldn't make yourself look any more daft than you were, you managed it. Bravo. clap

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:38 pm

Mickado wrote:
The Judge said it was ridiculous he was cited for it in the first place and he was suspending him for a week because O'Gara had admitted doing it so he had to act on his admittance of guilt.

A judge? Was this in court or something?

He said it was rediculous that he was cited but he still banned him? That's very odd.

I think Blackett is a Judge - chairman of the Incident Reviewing Committee who come to a judgement if you prefer.

He said that the only reason he was getting any suspension was because ROG went in and admitted guilt so he had to sanction him - with all of a week.

by **Biltong** Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:38 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

Blue Muff - Why do you insist on turning this into a provincial argument? The likes of Biltong, Bluesman and Ozzy are also participating here and agree that POC deserved to be cited. Neither of them are irish supporters.

In fairness - all they have seen is the isolated clip. Would I be right in saying that Bluesman is a Cardiff/Wales supporter and might see POC as a threat to Warburton's captaincy of the Lions*?

No harm in that - just that not everyone might not be as impartial as you claim!

Wow. Just when I thought you couldn't make yourself look any more daft than you were, you managed it. Bravo.

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:40 pm

Biltong wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e put the rose tinted glasses away, you are embarressing yourself and starting to look very foolish

As I posted earlier, its the IRB who makes the rules and decides the santions. Get onto them about it.

Neither here nor there, but if you want to drag up citings from Leinster Munster games then Munster aren't going to come out of it smelling of roses. Head stamps, contact with the eye area, high challenges etc.

Sexton only got 2 weeks for this malicious deliberate kick to Maifis head. Dont recall there been such a clamour for him to be banned for weeks on end.

https://youtu.be/9U227_GpgO0

Blue Muff - Why do you insist on turning this into a provincial argument? The likes of Biltong, Bluesman and Ozzy are also participating here and agree that POC deserved to be cited. Neither of them are irish supporters.

In fairness - all they have seen is the isolated clip. Would I be right in saying that Bluesman is a Cardiff/Wales supporter and might see POC as a threat to Warburton's captaincy of the Lions*?

No harm in that - just that not everyone might not be as impartial as you claim!

Wow. Just when I thought you couldn't make yourself look any more daft than you were, you managed it. Bravo.

Surprised at you Biltong - are you not a moderator - always thought you were meant to encourage debating the post not ridiculing the poster.

by thebluesmancometh Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:40 pm

The more I see the clip the more I think he should be banned, if I was being 100% honest \Kearney is looking shaken after the tackle in the air, and his placement of the ball is slow, and he can't seem to strecth out, POC has nothing obstructing his view, and no players from either side go in for a ruck, maybe in reaction to Kearney looking hurt?, but POC can barely see any ball through Kearneys head but doesn't let his head get in the way of a good strike...

4 weeks for me. It gets worse everytime I see it

by Sin é Tue 16 Apr 2013, 1:42 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:In fairness - all they have seen is the isolated clip. Would I be right in saying that Bluesman is a Cardiff/Wales supporter and might see POC as a threat to Warburton's Robshaw, BOD's, AWJ's captaincy of the Lions*?

Come on... Foolish now turns to deluded!!

And them too - have you seen the betting on the next Lions captain?

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