POC gets off for kicking Kearney's head

by brennomac Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just announced that POC isn't going to get any sanction for the kick into Dave Kearney's head at the weekend.

Nobody believes that POC intended to kick Kearney but his action was clumsy bordering on the reckless and he should have been cited. Somehow if this wasn't a match between two Irish teams (Leinster were never going to cite POC)and was a HC match against a French or English team - and the citing officer wasn't Irish - he would have been cited. Still might have got off with a warning but somehow I think Paulie and Munster are very lucky that he's going to be there for the Clermont game.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:17 pm

Munster fans have made this worse than ot should have been, by not accepting that POC did something wrong.

by **Notch** Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:19 pm

What? He kicks the ball on, makes a mess of Leinsters possession, follows up the grubber and forces them onto the backfoot. Kicking it was 100% the right call.

by HammerofThunor Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:20 pm

Is there any precedent for this? It perhaps would have been useful for one to be set by IRFU some maybe it should have been cited.

by Thomond Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:22 pm

POC didn't do anything wrong, his execution of it may be, but he is entitled to go for it, it's a bad accident. Ther citing process was a joke, and all that but if it's me, I'm going for that ball, and you're a fool if you think any professional rugby player wouldn't.

by **Notch** Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:22 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Munster fans have made this worse than ot should have been, by not accepting that POC did something wrong.

Well I'm a neutral, if anything I prefer Leinster, and I don't accept POC did anything wrong.

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:25 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Is there any precedent for this? It perhaps would have been useful for one to be set by IRFU some maybe it should have been cited.

The laws of the game are upheld/governed by the IRB, not the IRFU (who would have representation on the IRB like every other rugby union).

by HammerofThunor Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:33 pm

Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Is there any precedent for this? It perhaps would have been useful for one to be set by IRFU some maybe it should have been cited.

The laws of the game are upheld/governed by the IRB, not the IRFU (who would have representation on the IRB like every other rugby union).

True, however if this sort of thing happens again they could review the IRFU decision. If they went for no ban it would direct other unions' responde (unless IRB intervene). Being cited does not mean banned.

by thebluesmancometh Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:33 pm

Sin é wrote:thebluesmancometh - your talking about a split second reaction. POC would have expected Leinster players to dive in to protect the ball.

What I think happened in that they (the Leinster players) thought that Kearney was knocked out/winded from his fall, but he wasn't and managed to present the ball. POC's reaction was quicker than anyone else.

PS - POC isn't stupid - Straight 'A' student in school and do you want to ask him yourself if he is a coward?

Firstly met him and DOC a few times and I am taller and similar size, they joked I shoud have a game, and once I lifted DOC as a lineout lifter (whole other story) Erm

And book smarts generally rarely lend themselves to on field nous lets be honest, I know some real dummies who are thinkers on the pitch!!

Kicking out is not a reaction based thought though, and Kearney had not placed the ball at all, he held it near his chin, or an inch or two from it, he was clearly struggling to place unobstructed and as you say I think a few Leinster players had noticed he was in trouble after the first clumsy taking in the air.

But POC reacted, with such ferocity to kick the ball dead when in reality with noone around picking it up would be the instinctive thought, but I can take the point that POC was trying to spoil ball all game and so he may have just kicked out in that trend or mindset.

Anyway the decision to kick isn't the main issue, it's the execution and little regard of where he was kicking out, at best it's very clumsy and deserves to be cited, at worse it's a cheap shot at a young back, and deserves to be cited.

by Thomond Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:37 pm

Bluesman, Kearney is in the act of placing the ball as POC makes his move like any good breakdown forward should be.

Round 27 second in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-GhyiAR8SI

by SecretFly Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:43 pm

Is this thing still going? I'm telling you all now...Munster/Leinster/Ulster/Connacht? fans..and anyone else involved here.... if you keep this thing going for chat's sake then yep, Paul O'Connell will truly be burdened with it for the rest of his career and beyond. We all know he doesn't deserve that and yet, if this bullshyte continues, the incident will become folklore.

It was a damned stupid and awkward thing for O'Connell to attempt. He knew instantly after the event that he should never have tried that but blood was up and he was being competitive without thinking.

Should he have been cited, should he have gotten a ban, should he have apologised more profusely to Dave Kearney who wouldn't have heard him anyway???

Okay, have your views on any or all of that of course, but I don't think any Irish fan here at least believes that was a malicious hit on Kearney...it was a big awkward blunder. Keep this up and it'll always be remembered as a Black Spot on Paul's career. He doesn't deserve that...not for this, not for a mistake. For a deliberate strike on another player's head he would have deserved the whole show - ban and long memories. Not for this though.

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:54 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Is there any precedent for this? It perhaps would have been useful for one to be set by IRFU some maybe it should have been cited.

The laws of the game are upheld/governed by the IRB, not the IRFU (who would have representation on the IRB like every other rugby union).

True, however if this sort of thing happens again they could review the IRFU decision. If they went for no ban it would direct other unions' responde (unless IRB intervene). Being cited does not mean banned.

The IRFU wouldn't be on the judging panel - it would be people from the other unions. Being cited doesn't necessarily you will be banned, but from Schmidt comments about 'thinking of the children', getting away scot free is going to be actually worse for the game in parents eyes.

by thebluesmancometh Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:07 pm

Thomond wrote:Bluesman, Kearney is in the act of placing the ball as POC makes his move like any good breakdown forward should be.

Round 27 second in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-GhyiAR8SI

He's in the act of struggling to place the ball, and POC reacts excellently, if he had swooped in, stole the ball and made yards it wouldve been a very succesfull move, if he swoops in kicks the ball dead it is a semi succesfull move, if he swoops in, kicks another player in the head, dislodges the ball a bit then gets dumped by his Ireland teammate off the ball...?

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:22 pm

You can justify the if, buts and hows, but you cannot ignore the fact that is is reckless.

by HammerofThunor Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:22 pm

Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Is there any precedent for this? It perhaps would have been useful for one to be set by IRFU some maybe it should have been cited.

The laws of the game are upheld/governed by the IRB, not the IRFU (who would have representation on the IRB like every other rugby union).

True, however if this sort of thing happens again they could review the IRFU decision. If they went for no ban it would direct other unions' responde (unless IRB intervene). Being cited does not mean banned.

The IRFU wouldn't be on the judging panel - it would be people from the other unions. Being cited doesn't necessarily you will be banned, but from Schmidt comments about 'thinking of the children', getting away scot free is going to be actually worse for the game in parents eyes.

I thought each union handled their own discipline matters in the PRO12. Has it changed? But it's irrelevant to the point. A panel making a decision on it would have set a precedent. Whoever it was.

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:42 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Thomond wrote:Bluesman, Kearney is in the act of placing the ball as POC makes his move like any good breakdown forward should be.

Round 27 second in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-GhyiAR8SI

He's in the act of struggling to place the ball, and POC reacts excellently, if he had swooped in, stole the ball and made yards it wouldve been a very succesfull move, if he swoops in kicks the ball dead it is a semi succesfull move, if he swoops in, kicks another player in the head, dislodges the ball a bit then gets dumped by his Ireland teammate off the ball...?

You claimed above that:

Kicking out is not a reaction based thought though, and Kearney had not placed the ball at all, he held it near his chin,

The Leinster player the top left corner coming in is BOD who went on to tackle BOD without the ball. That will give you a clue as to how quickly everything happened. Why did he bother tackling POC without the ball (and BOD was as good a reason to hack the ball away from him).

Notice as well what a great view the touch judge has of what happened.

Kearney's arm is well outstretched and lifted off the ground which is why POC kick the ball and not his head.

In the second image you can see the ball coming out, Kearney arm outstretched on it and you can see the top of Kearney head up against POC shin.

POC gets off for kicking Kearney's head - Page 5 Pictur15

POC gets off for kicking Kearney's head - Page 5 Pictur15

POC gets off for kicking Kearney's head - Page 5 Pictur16

by thebluesmancometh Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:48 pm

Excellent pics

First one highlights my point perfectly, the ball is mere inches from Kearneys chin, who isn't able to place it properly, POC can see the ball barely but has Kearneys head directly in the way of the ball. But hey don't let a head get in your way of something like a good clean kick eh???

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:59 pm

The images keep disappearing.

I see your backtracking now on the 'not placing the ball'.

His leg is at the top of Kearney head and the ball is much lower than his head also.

You can see Kearney head and arm lifted off the ground and the ball is on the ground and moving.

The touch judge has a very good view as well as does Brian O'Driscoll.

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:04 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Is there any precedent for this? It perhaps would have been useful for one to be set by IRFU some maybe it should have been cited.

The laws of the game are upheld/governed by the IRB, not the IRFU (who would have representation on the IRB like every other rugby union).

True, however if this sort of thing happens again they could review the IRFU decision. If they went for no ban it would direct other unions' responde (unless IRB intervene). Being cited does not mean banned.

The IRFU wouldn't be on the judging panel - it would be people from the other unions. Being cited doesn't necessarily you will be banned, but from Schmidt comments about 'thinking of the children', getting away scot free is going to be actually worse for the game in parents eyes.

I thought each union handled their own discipline matters in the PRO12. Has it changed? But it's irrelevant to the point. A panel making a decision on it would have set a precedent. Whoever it was.

Think it had - Nick de Luca hearng was in Dublin (13 weeks for tip tackling an Osprey's player - so must have used Irish disciplinary committee).

sorry - have a dodgy keyboard and keys keep sticking.

by thebluesmancometh Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:07 pm

Sin é wrote:The images keep disappearing.

I see your backtracking now on the 'not placing the ball'.

His leg is at the top of Kearney head and the ball is much lower than his head also.

You can see Kearney head and arm lifted off the ground and the ball is on the ground and moving.

The touch judge has a very good view as well as does Brian O'Driscoll.

Whos backtracking, he is clearly struggling to place the ball, it is inches from his head (as I stated earlier) and POC clearly goes through Kearneys head to get to the ball.

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:14 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Sin é wrote:The images keep disappearing.

I see your backtracking now on the 'not placing the ball'.

His leg is at the top of Kearney head and the ball is much lower than his head also.

You can see Kearney head and arm lifted off the ground and the ball is on the ground and moving.

The touch judge has a very good view as well as does Brian O'Driscoll.

Whos backtracking, he is clearly struggling to place the ball, it is inches from his head (as I stated earlier) and POC clearly goes through Kearneys head to get to the ball.

You are: You orignally stated: .... Kearney had not placed the ball at all, he held it near his chin ......

Whether he is struggling or not, he still managed it and his arm is outstretched with his hand on the ball.

by thebluesmancometh Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:21 pm

Sin é wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:
Sin é wrote:The images keep disappearing.

I see your backtracking now on the 'not placing the ball'.

His leg is at the top of Kearney head and the ball is much lower than his head also.

You can see Kearney head and arm lifted off the ground and the ball is on the ground and moving.

The touch judge has a very good view as well as does Brian O'Driscoll.

Whos backtracking, he is clearly struggling to place the ball, it is inches from his head (as I stated earlier) and POC clearly goes through Kearneys head to get to the ball.

You are: You orignally stated: .... Kearney had not placed the ball at all, he held it near his chin ......

Whether he is struggling or not, he still managed it and his arm is outstretched with his hand on the ball.

Firstly he isn't pointing back towards his own line squarely, he isn't reaching at full stretch with 2 hands presenting a secure ball, he had 2 attempts to place the ball back in one hand and had failed, the ball was inches from his chin (what a shock the pics have gone Erm

) POC has come from directly opposite the ball through Kearneys head, THROUGH KEARNEYS HEAD!! There is no clear obstruction to POC's view, he has done wrong. Not even your mancrush on him can make you think he's innocent!!

by aucklandlaurie Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:33 pm

I dont know if its any help at all but:

This incident reminds me very much of an incident that occured in the test between the All blacks and Scotland in 1967.

The ball came out of a ruck on the Scottish side,Scottish first five Chisholm reached back to pick up the ball at the same time as the chasing ABs lock Colin Meads tried to toe the ball ahead,at no time did Meads's boot contact Chisholm's head, the referee, an Irishman by the name of Kelleher, blew his whistle, and sent Meads off, he was later also suspended for two weeks.

Even the British media at the time were sympathetic and said the New Zealander had been hard done by.

Oh and by the way the All blacks won the test 14 to Scotland 3.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:35 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Just seen this on Leinster fans... This guy makes a VERY good point.

"Hi guys, long time reader and said I would sign up as there are some really tasteless post going on. I am a munster fan and from reading both forums I really am beginning to worry about the state of the national team, and this thread as with the one on munsterfans really sums up all that is wrong with Irish rugby. I have played rugby for many years and the way I judge incidents like this is how would you feel, if say a loved one was at the receiving end of a kick in the head like this. Clearly you would be appalled (excuse the pun). Poc didnt mean to hurt Kearney that I would hope everybody can agree, but he did and it could have been fatal. When you take the pitch you go out to win in an aggressive manner but you must always have regard for the opposition players welfare, which quite clearly Poc did not have in this instance, which would and should have leaded to a lengthy ban, for stupidity more so than malice. Dont get me wrong I am delighted to have him available for the semis but a ban was warranted.
But I would like people to remember all what Poc has done for Ireland when you have been supporting the man, and other Munster players, as should Munster fans with Leinster players. Rivalry is a brilliant thing and helps us have great games to watch like Saturday, but isnt one of the great traits of rugby that you can beat lumps out of each other for 80 minutes but share a pint and a laugh afterwards? Is this being lost to Irish rugby fans with so many non rugby playing fans ignorant to this?"

+1
Very well put

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:39 pm

The pics are there (just refresh) I had some problems trying to upload them in the first place and they kept disappearing, but they are there.

He is only a couple of degrees off being square. Look at where the Leinster players are in the first pick and where the touch judge is.

Is there a requirement to have 2 hands out? Thats a new one on me as I'd imagine that in some situations, a tackled player might not be able to use his two arms.

How many inches do you think the ball was from his chin (considering his arm is outstretched and his hand is on top of the ball).

The rest of your post is just bluster.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:41 pm

Notch wrote:What? He kicks the ball on, makes a mess of Leinsters possession, follows up the grubber and forces them onto the backfoot. Kicking it was 100% the right call.

Disagree entirely. Pick up the ball. Unequivocally the right call.

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:43 pm

This thread is so reminiscent of the Courtney Lawes knee on Ledesma in the RWC. 2 game ban for reckless play. https://www.606v2.com/t13556-should-lawes-be-cited-for-knee-on-ledesma?highlight=courtney+lawes+ledesma Unfortunately the clips are gone.

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:43 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Notch wrote:What? He kicks the ball on, makes a mess of Leinsters possession, follows up the grubber and forces them onto the backfoot. Kicking it was 100% the right call.

Disagree entirely. Pick up the ball. Unequivocally the right call.

BOD is waiting to tackle him (and he does, without the ball)!

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:30 pm

Gibson wrote:This verdict was a required fix and everyone in rugby knows it.

Interesting to see 100% of the non-Irish posters agreeing.

Nothing justifies it SIN. Nothing. It was wildly reckless. He could easily have paralysed him. Then what?

You are badly trying to defend the indefensible. POC should have been cited and got a few weeks ban.

The bigger picture being, it is a horrible example for kids, whose Ma's & Da's,will think again before letting their sons & daughters even start playing, if this kind of reckless behaviour is tolerated at the top-end.

So stop it man, yeah? Just be thankful the Rugby Gods conspired.

I love Paulie by the way. And Im even prouder of Leinster Rugby in their restrained response to this.

And I am glad that Joe had his say, as a coach worried about his player and the game itself.

Laws of the game Gibbo, laws of the game.
Gibbo, what did you think of this at the time - were you embarrassed by Leinster Rugby?

Jennings cleared to face Wasps
Scrum.com
January 15, 2009
Leinster flanker Shane Jennings in action against Toulouse, November 18 2007
Shane Jennings is free to face Wasps after his ban was lifted

Getty Images

Leinster flanker Shane Jennings has been cleared to face Wasps in Saturday's vital Heineken Cup clash after successfully appealing his three-week ban for striking.

Jennings had been banned until January 27 for punching Connacht's Andrew Farley during Leinster's Magners League win at the start of January, but after a three-hour meeting on Wednesday an IRFU appeals panel lifted the ban.

"The three-man IRFU Appeal Committee found that under the Magners League Tournament Rules and particularly the Disciplinary Rules therein that no jurisdiction is given to a disciplinary committee to investigate a citing complaint of a citing commissioner appointed under those rules," said an IRFU statement following the hearing.

"As a result the appeal of Shane Jennings is allowed and the suspension lifted. Shane Jennings is free to play from this point on."

Erm

air very thin up where you are putting yourselves gibbo Very Happy

What about the children ?

by yappysnap Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:50 pm

I genuinely thought the title read "POC gets off kicking Kearney's head" which kind of made me vomit

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:14 pm

greytiger wrote:This thread is so reminiscent of the Courtney Lawes knee on Ledesma in the RWC. 2 game ban for reckless play. https://www.606v2.com/t13556-should-lawes-be-cited-for-knee-on-ledesma?highlight=courtney+lawes+ledesma Unfortunately the clips are gone.

Greytiger - just saw over on leinsterfans that apparently Walsh (the same citing Officer) was the one for the toulon v tigers game that Ayerza broke his collar bone bakkies botha was the culprit. Cocerill's comments make interesting reading:

Richard Cockerill has described the decision by the Heineken Cup organisers not to cite Toulon lock Bakkies Botha for seriously injuring Leicester Tigers prop Marcos Ayerza as "disgraceful".

Leicester's director of rugby slammed European Rugby Cup (ERC) after the second-half incident at the Stade Felix Mayol on Sunday, which left Ayerza with a broken collar bone.

Cockerill accused ERC's disciplinary officer of "not being in touch with the modern game".

"Marcos has broken his collarbone in two," said Cockerill. "He will have surgery today to have it plated and repaired, and he will be out for three months.

"I have been told that there will be no citing of the incident.

"The citing officer put it forward as a citable offence but the gatekeeper from ERC's disciplinary section has decided that it is not worthy of a citing.

"From the footage we have seen, we felt that it was an illegal act (by Botha) of jumping into a tackle.

"It caused a lot of damage to the player and I am very disappointed in the attitude that ERC have come back to us with.

"And I am bitterly disappointed with the inconsistency at disciplinary level within ERC yet again.

"They have failed to deal with what, in my opinion, is an act of foul play.

"I am pretty sure it is against the laws of the game to hurdle into a player – and that has caused damage to our player who will now miss the rest of the season.

"For me, that is a disgraceful decision to not, at least, have a hearing to look at all of the facts.

"To lose one of the best loosehead props in the world in that fashion is disappointing.

"It leaves a sour taste in the mouth. The rule-makers are so fussy on so many things but, when something like this happens, the disciplinary panels and officers decide there is no case to answer."

Samoan Logovi'i Mulipola will be favourite to fill Ayerza's No.1 shirt against Wasps on Sunday.

Cockerill also hinted that a couple of changes could be made in the squad.

Flanker Steve Mafi is back in full training this week, while Leicester were "hopeful" that Tom Croft could also prove his fitness after a back spasm in Toulon.

So it would seem that its not entirely up to the Citing Officer who is cited - and if Walsh was the Citing Officer anyway from his very recent experience, he knew it wasn't going to wash with the Disciplinary Officer.

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:54 pm

Sin é wrote:
greytiger wrote:This thread is so reminiscent of the Courtney Lawes knee on Ledesma in the RWC. 2 game ban for reckless play. https://www.606v2.com/t13556-should-lawes-be-cited-for-knee-on-ledesma?highlight=courtney+lawes+ledesma Unfortunately the clips are gone.

Greytiger - just saw over on leinsterfans that apparently Walsh (the same citing Officer) was the one for the toulon v tigers game that Ayerza broke his collar bone bakkies botha was the culprit. Cocerill's comments make interesting reading:

Richard Cockerill has described the decision by the Heineken Cup organisers not to cite Toulon lock Bakkies Botha for seriously injuring Leicester Tigers prop Marcos Ayerza as "disgraceful".

Leicester's director of rugby slammed European Rugby Cup (ERC) after the second-half incident at the Stade Felix Mayol on Sunday, which left Ayerza with a broken collar bone.

Cockerill accused ERC's disciplinary officer of "not being in touch with the modern game".

"Marcos has broken his collarbone in two," said Cockerill. "He will have surgery today to have it plated and repaired, and he will be out for three months.

"I have been told that there will be no citing of the incident.

"The citing officer put it forward as a citable offence but the gatekeeper from ERC's disciplinary section has decided that it is not worthy of a citing.

"From the footage we have seen, we felt that it was an illegal act (by Botha) of jumping into a tackle.

"It caused a lot of damage to the player and I am very disappointed in the attitude that ERC have come back to us with.

"And I am bitterly disappointed with the inconsistency at disciplinary level within ERC yet again.

"They have failed to deal with what, in my opinion, is an act of foul play.

"I am pretty sure it is against the laws of the game to hurdle into a player – and that has caused damage to our player who will now miss the rest of the season.

"For me, that is a disgraceful decision to not, at least, have a hearing to look at all of the facts.

"To lose one of the best loosehead props in the world in that fashion is disappointing.

"It leaves a sour taste in the mouth. The rule-makers are so fussy on so many things but, when something like this happens, the disciplinary panels and officers decide there is no case to answer."

Samoan Logovi'i Mulipola will be favourite to fill Ayerza's No.1 shirt against Wasps on Sunday.

Cockerill also hinted that a couple of changes could be made in the squad.

Flanker Steve Mafi is back in full training this week, while Leicester were "hopeful" that Tom Croft could also prove his fitness after a back spasm in Toulon.

So it would seem that its not entirely up to the Citing Officer who is cited - and if Walsh was the Citing Officer anyway from his very recent experience, he knew it wasn't going to wash with the Disciplinary Officer.

I looked at the footage and concluded that Cockers was talking out of his renowned arse.

by Sin é Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:46 pm

Its an interesting insight into the citing process (especially since the same Citing Official was involved in both cases).

The procedures seem to be:

1. Citing Officer puts forward a citable offence
2. The Disciplinary Officer also reviews it and makes the decision on whether it is a citable offence or not.

Otherwise - the arguments Cockerill was making are similar for POCgate.
a) Player injured by Botha illegally jumping into a tackle
b) Coach deems it to be foul play
c) Coach annoyed that he is losing his player for 3 months.
Coach says: "I am pretty sure it is against the laws of the game to hurdle into a player – and that has caused damage to our player who will now miss the rest of the season.

"For me, that is a disgraceful decision to not, at least, have a hearing to look at all of the facts.

So the officials who would have seen the incident up close are:
1. Touch Judge
2. Ref
3. Citing Officer
and possibly/probably a Disciplinary Officer.

We definately need more people to have a look at it. I nominate thebluesmancometh Very Happy

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:52 pm

When I looked at the footage I didn't see a jump into the tackle*.

If I had, I'd moan about it.

[ed] the footage I saw was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAPiUeXJqkg

[ed2] just driving legs.

by **George Carlin** Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:13 am

Sin é wrote:Its an interesting insight into the citing process (especially since the same Citing Official was involved in both cases).

The procedures seem to be:

1. Citing Officer puts forward a citable offence
2. The Disciplinary Officer also reviews it and makes the decision on whether it is a citable offence or not.

Otherwise - the arguments Cockerill was making are similar for POCgate.
a) Player injured by Botha illegally jumping into a tackle
b) Coach deems it to be foul play
c) Coach annoyed that he is losing his player for 3 months.
Coach says: "I am pretty sure it is against the laws of the game to hurdle into a player – and that has caused damage to our player who will now miss the rest of the season.

"For me, that is a disgraceful decision to not, at least, have a hearing to look at all of the facts.

So the officials who would have seen the incident up close are:
1. Touch Judge
2. Ref
3. Citing Officer
and possibly/probably a Disciplinary Officer.

We definately need more people to have a look at it. I nominate thebluesmancometh

Didn't Lord Shane of Williams get pinged a few times for trying to hurdle players in games?
Not jumping 'into' them, obviously.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:17 am

Leinster captain Leo Cullen has lost faith in the system employed to cite and punish players for foul play. The secondrow, who in 2009 attended a hearing in defence of Alan Quinlan after the Munster player had been accused of making contact with his eyes in a Heineken Cup semi-final, described the failure to cite Paul O’Connell as “disappointing”.
Cullen said the incident involving O’Connell, which left Leinster winger Dave Kearney unconscious after a kick to the head, has negatively altered his opinion on how rugby’s judicial system works.
Cullen said the kick, which was not punished during the match, was “extremely reckless”.
“Looking back at it, yeah pretty disappointed about the way it has panned out,” said Cullen. “Clearly the player has been knocked unconscious by another player while he was on the ground and obviously my first instinct is to be protective of one of my own players.
“Listen, players have to have faith in the system and I suppose the faith I would have has changed now. Clearly there is an issue there.”

A concern
“I don’t see how the player was going to get to the ball without touching the player’s (Kearney) head, and obviously that’s a bit of a concern,” added the Leinster captain.
“I think it’s all over the web, there’s a lot of hits already, and I think it sends out a pretty bad image for our game. Yeah, I’m disappointed about the way it’s been handled.”
Cullen said it wasimportant for players to know their safety is being protected by administrators and fortyhem to understand there are times when they must show self-restraint.
“You have to . . . playing a contact sport, you have to be at a certain level, emotionally and physically, and there’s always a line, I guess.
“It’s important you don’t go beyond that.I just think there’s a responsibility on the game itself, the people who are in a citing capacity, to deal with incidents,” he said.
Cullen said there was no Leinster reaction to the incident at the time because the players didn’t see what happened as they thought Kearney had been fouled in the air prior to the kick. But he believes there is still time for officials to act.
“Obviously no-one saw it from our side and hence there was no reaction,” explained the secondrow.
"I think it could have been a very simple process. The incident clearly needed to be looked at, at another level and it has not been. There probably still is time to do the citing.”

by Sin é Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:37 pm

Did Leo have a straight face when he was saying that (bearing in mind his own 'mistake' of thinking Kilcoyne's back was a red carpet to be walked on)? Very Happy

by GunsGerms Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:52 pm

Sin é wrote:Did Leo have a straight face when he was saying that (bearing in mind his own 'mistake' of thinking Kilcoyne's back was a red carpet to be walked on)?

Im sure you could find footage of every forward standing on an opposition player at some point in that game. Did Cullen kick anyone in the head? In any case if Kilcoyne lays himself out like a red carpet on the wrong side of the ruck then he is fair game IMO.

by **rodders** Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:53 pm

Red card offence. That should have been the end of O'Connell's season and to be honest if this wasn't a Lions year it would have been.

Makes a mockery of the citing commission and shows were the IRFU's priorities are.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:54 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:Did Leo have a straight face when he was saying that (bearing in mind his own 'mistake' of thinking Kilcoyne's back was a red carpet to be walked on)?

Im sure you could find footage of every forward standing on an opposition player at some point in that game. Did Cullen kick anyone in the head? In any case if ~~Kilcoyne~~ anyone lays himself out like a red carpet on the wrong side of the ruck then he is fair game IMO.

+1

by Sin é Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:01 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:Did Leo have a straight face when he was saying that (bearing in mind his own 'mistake' of thinking Kilcoyne's back was a red carpet to be walked on)?

Im sure you could find footage of every forward standing on an opposition player at some point in that game. Did Cullen kick anyone in the head? In any case if Kilcoyne lays himself out like a red carpet on the wrong side of the ruck then he is fair game IMO.

He was lying flat out, with his face to the ground with his feet at the ruck, so it was just down right nasty that he chose to join the ruck by walking/jogging on his back. Leo better clean his act up because the Citing Officials will be extra careful when reviewing Leinster's games in future.

by Sin é Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:02 pm

rodders wrote:Red card offence. That should have been the end of O'Connell's season and to be honest if this wasn't a Lions year it would have been.

Makes a mockery of the citing commission and shows were the IRFU's priorities are.

Kicking an opponent is not a Red Card Offence. Its a penalty.

by GoodinTightSpaces Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:02 pm

Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:Did Leo have a straight face when he was saying that (bearing in mind his own 'mistake' of thinking Kilcoyne's back was a red carpet to be walked on)?

Im sure you could find footage of every forward standing on an opposition player at some point in that game. Did Cullen kick anyone in the head? In any case if Kilcoyne lays himself out like a red carpet on the wrong side of the ruck then he is fair game IMO.

He was lying flat out, with his face to the ground with his feet at the ruck, so it was just down right nasty that he chose to join the ruck by walking/jogging on his back. Leo better clean his act up because the Citing Officials will be extra careful when reviewing Leinster's games in future.

back again to destroy Munster leinster relations????

by Mickado Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:04 pm

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Red card offence. That should have been the end of O'Connell's season and to be honest if this wasn't a Lions year it would have been.

Makes a mockery of the citing commission and shows were the IRFU's priorities are.

Kicking an opponent is not necessarily a Red Card Offence. Its a penalty.

Fixed that for you.

by **rodders** Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:07 pm

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Red card offence. That should have been the end of O'Connell's season and to be honest if this wasn't a Lions year it would have been.

Makes a mockery of the citing commission and shows were the IRFU's priorities are.

Kicking an opponent is not a Red Card Offence. Its a penalty.

Actually it is a red card and you should know this because Munster have a history of kicking opponents, with Flannery and O'Gara coping hefty bans over the past few years for similar offences but this is the worst.

by Sin é Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:08 pm

Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Red card offence. That should have been the end of O'Connell's season and to be honest if this wasn't a Lions year it would have been.

Makes a mockery of the citing commission and shows were the IRFU's priorities are.

Kicking an opponent is not necessarily a Red Card Offence. Its a penalty.

Fixed that for you.

IRB Laws

10.4 Dangerous play and misconduct
(c) Kicking. A player must not kick an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

by GoodinTightSpaces Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:09 pm

Sin é wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Red card offence. That should have been the end of O'Connell's season and to be honest if this wasn't a Lions year it would have been.

Makes a mockery of the citing commission and shows were the IRFU's priorities are.

Kicking an opponent is not necessarily a Red Card Offence. Its a penalty.

Fixed that for you.

IRB Laws

10.4 Dangerous play and misconduct
(c) Kicking. A player must not kick an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

next match i play i am giving my opponents a good kicking everytime they are out orfrange for a kick

by Sin é Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:10 pm

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Red card offence. That should have been the end of O'Connell's season and to be honest if this wasn't a Lions year it would have been.

Makes a mockery of the citing commission and shows were the IRFU's priorities are.

Kicking an opponent is not a Red Card Offence. Its a penalty.

Actually it is a red card and you should know this because Munster have a history of kicking opponents, with Flannery and O'Gara coping hefty bans over the past few years for similar offences but this is the worst.

The citing Official said that O'Gara should not have been cited. The only reason he had to give him a week was that he admitted guilt before the hearing!

by Mickado Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:20 pm

So, Munster v Clermont - ROG kicks off, Nathan Hines ignores the flight of the ball and runs right up to ROG and boots him in the chest. Penalty Munster.

ya roysh...

by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:26 pm

It was said (by the citing committee) that it was not a kick but a trip.

The offence should have resulted in a penalty trip for the opposition, Rog would probably have won the game with a "drop trip" in injury time anyway.

He is one of Ireland's best ever trippers. and has the record points tally for tripping in the history of the NH game.

Anyway.... Lads... Is this thread still going? Let it lie willyiz?

by Mickado Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:30 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:It was said (by the citing committee) that it was not a kick but a trip.

The offence should have resulted in a penalty trip for the opposition, Rog would probably have won the game with a "drop trip" in injury time anyway.

He is one of Ireland's best ever trippers. and has the record points tally for tripping in the history of the NH game.

Anyway.... Lads... Is this thread still going? Let it lie willyiz?

He took his family out for a day kick to celebrate such a lenient sentence.

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