Zebre - A worthy Heineken Cup contender! (including all-party face-saving compromise)

After 21 losses out of 21 games, it has to be a no-brainer.

It's not as if there's no secondary European contest or anything...

[ed] Compromise

A hypothetical European seeding based on current league positions and current qualifying rules. Based on EuroTable rankings http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Don't knock me detail - just principle.
A European compromise without tears could be devised. Indeed all stakeholders could claim victory.

Let's assume 1. The Rabo want to hold what they have and 2. The franglos want to base entry more meritocratically.

Country, league pos/extra qualifiers, side, Eurotable ranking

Tier 1
Fra 1 Clermont Auvergne 100.00
Ire 2 Leinster 90.95
Fra 2 Toulon 86.13
Eng 1 Saracens 85.69
Ire 1 Ulster 83.51
Eng 2 Harlequins 82.38
Fra 5 Racing Metro 78.12
Fra 4 Castres 75.4

Tier 2
Fra 6 Montpellier 75.2
Eng 7 Leicester Tigers 74.66
Eng 8 Gloucester Rugby 72.14
Sco 3 Glasgow 72.14
Eng 4 Northampton Saints 71.79
Fra 3 Toulouse 71.75
Fra HEC+1 Perpignan 71.1
Wal 5 Ospreys 68.39

Tier 3
Ire 6 Munster 67.42
Eng 7 Exeter Chiefs 66.29
Wal 4 Scarlets 62.8
Ita 7 Benetton Treviso 50.98
Ire Amlin+1 Connacht 47.13
Wal 9 Cardiff Blues 40.57
Sco 10 Edinburgh 33.81
Ita 12 Zebre 18.55

Eight pools. Eight winners. Fewer games.
Possibility of H/A quarters and semis.

Plus the extra added unexpected bonus: as there are only three sides in each pool, additional domestic league fixtures can be arranged outside the International windows.

OK. I underestimated them.

Actually it's 27 from 27. But they have secured ten LBPs incuding one in European competition.

Surely they're better than Bordeaux-Begles, Rovigo, Mogliano and Cavalieri Prato.

It's not as though good sides get dumped from the Class One drug of the Heino?

Great article.

Greytiger,

As so often mentioned England are more than welcome to change their qualification system if they wish.

greytiger wrote:OK. I underestimated them.

Actually it's 27 from 27. But they have secured ten LBPs incuding one in European competition.

Surely they're better than Bordeaux-Begles, Rovigo, Mogliano and Cavalieri Prato.

It's not as though good sides get dumped from the Class One drug of the Heino?

Haven't Zebre only been in existence for a year, so how did they manage to sneak in 24 more Heino pool games than any other team? This is clearly a fix and I demand a public inquiry

red_stag wrote:Greytiger,

As so often mentioned England are more than welcome to change their qualification system if they wish.

Did you hear about the 'secret' talks? http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/181018.html

OK much of it is retreaded, but does Zebre really deserve a re-run at the top table?

They are the second best team in Italy, who would you rather the FIR enter instead?
Calvisano, Crociati? I think Zebre are better than both those teams.


What would happen if England only had one decent team? say 1 Tigers and 11 London Welshes? would you say 5 of those London Welshes shouldn't be allowed in?
No the RFU would enter tigers and the top 5 London Welshes no matter how poor they were.
FIR are entering its best 2 teams, and as poor as Zebre are, they are still the second best team in Italy.

"There has been some compromise in that they have agreed it can be the top four in the RaboDirect, with the other two places determined by nationality to ensure all six nations are represented."

That would mean Munster (semi finalists this year, record number of semi finals reached and knockout stages almost every season) out of the HC if it started this year.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

greytiger wrote:OK. I underestimated them.

Actually it's 27 from 27. But they have secured ten LBPs incuding one in European competition.

Surely they're better than Bordeaux-Begles, Rovigo, Mogliano and Cavalieri Prato.

It's not as though good sides get dumped from the Class One drug of the Heino?

Haven't Zebre only been in existence for a year, so how did they manage to sneak in 24 more Heino pool games than any other team? This is clearly a fix and I demand a public inquiry

Deliberately disingenuous As.

Yes. The Zebras have indeed only been in existence for a year, but the question is whether they deserve an HEC spot.

Kingshu wrote:They are the second best team in Italy, who would you rather the FIR enter instead?
Calvisano, Crociati? I think Zebre are better than both those teams.


What would happen if England only had one decent team? say 1 Tigers and 11 London Welshes? would you say 5 of those London Welshes shouldn't be allowed in?
No the RFU would enter tigers and the top 5 London Welshes no matter how poor they were.
FIR are entering its best 2 teams, and as poor as Zebre are, they are still the second best team in Italy.

Then I'd be looking at the extended current form league guide akin to the many posts I've made previously Kingshu. Certainly not the current ERC rankings list.

greytiger wrote:OK. I underestimated them.

Actually it's 27 from 27. But they have secured ten LBPs incuding one in European competition.

Surely they're better than Bordeaux-Begles, Rovigo, Mogliano and Cavalieri Prato.

It's not as though good sides get dumped from the Class One drug of the Heino?

Better than Bordeaux-Begles? a team that is on 5 undefeated games in a row in T14? Put 40 points past Toulon at home ?

Artful_Dodger wrote:"There has been some compromise in that they have agreed it can be the top four in the RaboDirect, with the other two places determined by nationality to ensure all six nations are represented."

That would mean Munster (semi finalists this year, record number of semi finals reached and knockout stages almost every season) out of the HC if it started this year.

Just to add to this - I think it demonstrates that these changes have absolutely nothing to do with regards to the standard of teams competing in the HC. On the one hand those such as Portnoy argue that its about Zebre not being good enough to compete in the HC, yet at the same time the changes they endorse to make the HC more competitive would result in probably the most competitive team in the history of tournament not being in the competition.

Its completely illogical and contradictory of itself.

Sure the leagues are completely devalued anyway due to playoffs.

Only a chump would try and come first and suffer burnout when you can just get 4th and do well on two fronts.

My proposals agree with neither the current nor the proposed Franglo one.

But there you go...

What is your proposal.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:"There has been some compromise in that they have agreed it can be the top four in the RaboDirect, with the other two places determined by nationality to ensure all six nations are represented."

That would mean Munster (semi finalists this year, record number of semi finals reached and knockout stages almost every season) out of the HC if it started this year.

Just to add to this - I think it demonstrates that these changes have absolutely nothing to do with regards to the standard of teams competing in the HC. On the one hand those such as Portnoy argue that its about Zebre not being good enough to compete in the HC, yet at the same time the changes they endorse to make the HC more competitive would result in probably the most competitive team in the history of tournament not being in the competition.

Its completely illogical and contradictory of itself.

Well if Munster are that competitive (and yes I do know they usually are) then they should be able to qualify on merit, and if they cant they play in the next European competition down. Just because they are Munster/ Leinster/ Tigers/ Clermont/ who ever the point is that they should not have a divine right to play in the HC

red_stag wrote:What is your proposal.

Jeez again?
Briefly that there should be a 32 Euro cup starter round robin.

Seedings based on current form.

8 pools of three. No drop-downs, automatic entrants or lucky losers.

Top of each pool goes to the HEC second goes to the Amlin third goes to the Tertiary Cup

Who me?

Well if we absolutely HAVE to have only 20 teams then I would go 6 English, 6 French, 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian (Decided on Rabo placings) and the next 4 unqualified from the Rabo.

But.....(And here is the different bit) While I would ensure that the 2 x cup winners would get a spot, it would be at the expense of the bottom team in their league not as well as.

This would only be a problem for the Amlin winner as the HC winner will almost certainly qualify anyway.

lostinwales wrote:
Well if Munster are that competitive (and yes I do know they usually are) then they should be able to qualify on merit, and if they cant they play in the next European competition down. Just because they are Munster/ Leinster/ Tigers/ Clermont/ who ever the point is that they should not have a divine right to play in the HC

If the 4 countries that compete in the Rabo have to share only 6 HC spots between them then England and France should only have 2 or 3 max spots,it creates a huge imbalance in the competition otherwise.

lostinwales wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:"There has been some compromise in that they have agreed it can be the top four in the RaboDirect, with the other two places determined by nationality to ensure all six nations are represented."

That would mean Munster (semi finalists this year, record number of semi finals reached and knockout stages almost every season) out of the HC if it started this year.

Just to add to this - I think it demonstrates that these changes have absolutely nothing to do with regards to the standard of teams competing in the HC. On the one hand those such as Portnoy argue that its about Zebre not being good enough to compete in the HC, yet at the same time the changes they endorse to make the HC more competitive would result in probably the most competitive team in the history of tournament not being in the competition.

Its completely illogical and contradictory of itself.

Well if Munster are that competitive (and yes I do know they usually are) then they should be able to qualify on merit, and if they cant they play in the next European competition down. Just because they are Munster/ Leinster/ Tigers/ Clermont/ who ever the point is that they should not have a divine right to play in the HC

To be honest I agree with this as a Munster fan. I would hope that if we needed to qualify that we would. That we'd show that same determination that won us matches against Saracens or Harlequins or Racing Metro this year and has won us the tough European games in the past.

Munster have always organised their resources well to ensure their best chance of success both in the long term and the short term. That has meant in the short term that our players are able to focus on the key games while ensuring that we constantly have fresh players coming through.

From Peter Clohessy, Keith Wood, Mick Galwey, Rob Henderson, John Langford, Jim Williams generation through to our golden generation of Flannery, Hayes, Wallace, Quinlan, O'Gara, O'Connell, Howlett we are now starting to come into an age of Donnacha Ryan, Dave Kilcoyne, Peter O'Mahony, Conor Murray, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls etc.

Our fall from grace hasn't been the worst:

2008 - Champions
2009 - Semi Finals
2010 - Semi Finals
2011 - Did Not Qualify BUT we won the Celtic League and beat Australia
2012 - Quarter Finals
2013 - Semi Finals

All about making sure that things keep moving. Its the Munster Way!

The current and propsed systems (of any League ilk) always seek to be protectionist.

Surely glass ceilings are anti-sport.(?)

But the Zebre don't currently belong in the top Cup.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Who me?

Well if we absolutely HAVE to have only 20 teams then I would go 6 English, 6 French, 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian (Decided on Rabo placings) and the next 4 unqualified from the Rabo.

But.....(And here is the different bit) While I would ensure that the 2 x cup winners would get a spot, it would be at the expense of the bottom team in their league not as well as.

This would only be a problem for the Amlin winner as the HC winner will almost certainly qualify anyway.

I agree with this.

I have been calling for 20 teams - 8,6,6 for some time. It's the compromise I think eventually that will be made.

greytiger/Portnoy is correct. Zebre should be playing in the Amlin as should Connacht,Edinburgh and Dragons next season.

Portnoy, I'll buck a trend. I wouldn't mind too much about your 32 Team Open Pan European thingy.

Seriously, I'd happily make my peace with that. Why 32 teams though?

14 + 12 + 12 = 38

Who gets left out? Something along the lines of the below?

11 FRANCE
9 ENGLAND
4 IRELAND
4 WALES
2 SCOTLAND
2 ITALY

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Who me?

Well if we absolutely HAVE to have only 20 teams then I would go 6 English, 6 French, 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian (Decided on Rabo placings) and the next 4 unqualified from the Rabo.

But.....(And here is the different bit) While I would ensure that the 2 x cup winners would get a spot, it would be at the expense of the bottom team in their league not as well as.

This would only be a problem for the Amlin winner as the HC winner will almost certainly qualify anyway.

I agree with this.

I have been calling for 20 teams - 8,6,6 for some time. It's the compromise I think eventually that will be made.

greytiger/Portnoy is correct. Zebre should be playing in the Amlin as should Connacht,Edinburgh and Dragons next season.

It makes sense. After much willywaving this is what will happen.

IMO the leagues and HCup should serve only to prop up the international game. By that logic Zebre are worthy of their inclusion given how well Italy have done this year in the 6N. There was a time when Treviso were scoffed at too.

They are mid table this year though so if we allow Zebre some time no doubt they will get better. They (Treviso) have only been in the Rabo for a couple of years so thats not bad.

Ive mentioned the 32 team one before.

The Pro 12 unions brought it up but it was rejected by French and I think English.

Was 10 pro 12, 10 Jeff and 12 Top 14 that they wished to enter.

It could have added 8 groups of 3 (seeded based on league finish), top of each group goes into knockout for cup, 2nd in each group a shield, and 3rd got into a plate (maybe joined by other euoopean teams?)

Anyway that is dead in the water now.

And anything less than Jenifer McLadyboy's suggestion, would be swining thing to far in France and Englands favour

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Who me?

Well if we absolutely HAVE to have only 20 teams then I would go 6 English, 6 French, 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian (Decided on Rabo placings) and the next 4 unqualified from the Rabo.

But.....(And here is the different bit) While I would ensure that the 2 x cup winners would get a spot, it would be at the expense of the bottom team in their league not as well as.

This would only be a problem for the Amlin winner as the HC winner will almost certainly qualify anyway.

I agree with this.

I have been calling for 20 teams - 8,6,6 for some time. It's the compromise I think eventually that will be made.

greytiger/Portnoy is correct. Zebre should be playing in the Amlin as should Connacht,Edinburgh and Dragons next season.

And you are correct they would be the ones left out next season by my rules. The French may not like Montpelier being left out (current 6th) at the expense of Biarritz, Stade or Perpignan though. (Should one of them win the Amlin)

No 6Ns side deserves to be in the HEC.

But the financial imperatives make it inevitable unfortunately.

Maybe a proper D1, D2 pan-European club league subtended by European regional leagues would help the growth (along with a similar move in International 4Ns divisions).

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Who me?

Well if we absolutely HAVE to have only 20 teams then I would go 6 English, 6 French, 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian (Decided on Rabo placings) and the next 4 unqualified from the Rabo.

But.....(And here is the different bit) While I would ensure that the 2 x cup winners would get a spot, it would be at the expense of the bottom team in their league not as well as.

This would only be a problem for the Amlin winner as the HC winner will almost certainly qualify anyway.

I agree with this.

I have been calling for 20 teams - 8,6,6 for some time. It's the compromise I think eventually that will be made.

greytiger/Portnoy is correct. Zebre should be playing in the Amlin as should Connacht,Edinburgh and Dragons next season.

Dragons and Connacht will be playing there next season. We always do (except if a welsh or Irish team win the HC). You do realise that not all of the Rabo teams get in the HC? There is some qualification!

If Munster win H-cup or Leinster win the Almin, Connacht will be in the H-cup next year.

However I think your a bit quick to say Connacht should not be playing in H-cup, they could finish in 7th place in the league, Meaning they would still qualify under the 8,6,6 you are calling for.

Bit anti-Connacht to be saying they should be playing in the Amlin, when they can still make your critea of what a team must do to make the H-cup.

Griff when you mean some qualification you mean that only 11 teams get into the HC instead of all 12? Doesn't sound like particular tough qualification to me!

Kingshu Connacht's best bet at qualification for the HC is not through their own efforts currently. They basically ride the coat tails of Munster,Leinster and Ulster. I don't like that.

As things stand in the league table Connacht would deserve to go into the Amlin. Plus they would hardly be a big loss.

I know winning more than 1 match in the HC is a huge achievement for them but when two of those wins was vs the aforementioned Zebre it kind of puts things into perspective.

I know Pro12 fans on here think they are a great side. Solidarity and all that.

Can I ask contributing posters to inspect the recent history of HEC pool stage final tables.

Firstly (maybe) they would recognise that the pools themselves are skewed by spurious historic performances going up to four years back. That means that currently successful teams are handicapped by those whose success is a fading memory.

Secondly perennially, pools are mismatched by the inherent illogicality of their composition by not being set up to produce 'fair' results in the sense that the presence of nominal league/country representatives.

Take this season http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/european-cup/table pools 1, 3 and five each contained entrants who were whitewashed.

So that led to the irrationality of the lucky losers from the best of the rest.

Had the pools contained the same number of teams in eight pools of three, there could have been pool winners going into the HEC, pool seconds into the Amlin and the possibility of thirds going forward to a Tertiary Cup.

Having only three teams in the pool stages, then home and away games for the quarter and semi finals could be accommodated. Thus removing another anomaly - the 'home' tie (another inevitability of the paucity of thinking underpinning the existing set-up).

A pox on the Rabo. A pox on the T14. And a pox on the Jeff.
If a modified http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php rankings process were accommodated, plus eight pools, of three, many of the structural imbalances could be avoided.

Yes, there would still be groups of death etc.. But the process could be seen to be as fair as humanly possible.

Or putting it another way (and returning to the OP):
Hands up those who don't fancy Zebre in their HEC pool next year.

I dont care who Leinster get as long as it isnt Clermont, again!!! Not sure how two of the best teams in the comp can be in the same group. Id be more worried about that.

beshocked wrote:Griff when you mean some qualification you mean that only 11 teams get into the HC instead of all 12? Doesn't sound like particular tough qualification to me!

Kingshu Connacht's best bet at qualification for the HC is not through their own efforts currently. They basically ride the coat tails of Munster,Leinster and Ulster. I don't like that.

As things stand in the league table Connacht would deserve to go into the Amlin. Plus they would hardly be a big loss.

I know winning more than 1 match in the HC is a huge achievement for them but when two of those wins was vs the aforementioned Zebre it kind of puts things into perspective.

I know Pro12 fans on here think they are a great side. Solidarity and all that.

Connacht have the most difficult qualification route to the H-cup out of anybody, new rules will prob make it easier for them to qualify for Europe.
I think its easier to finish in the top 6 of the jeff than to have to finish above the H-cup semi finalists, and last years winners and finalists.

As mentioned in other threads you never complained about English teams getting in before, and we are all aware that you are anti-Connacht, you don't have an issue with Treviso or Cardiff blues, yet Connacht could finish about both of them in the league, and you still single Connacht out?

GunsGerms wrote:I dont care who Leinster get as long as it isnt Clermont, again!!! Not sure how two of the best teams in the comp can be in the same group. Id be more worried about that.

Well that's the ERC rankings for you GG.

I'd be posting up the Eurothingy rankings for last July now (only the site is hanging).

1	Leinster		100.00	1
2	Leicester Tigers		83.13	2
3	Toulouse		80.44	4	1
4	ASM Clermont Auvergne		79.72	3	1
5	Toulon		75.16	5
6	Ospreys		73.36	6
7	Munster		73.02	7
8	Biarritz Olympique		70.53	8
9	Harlequins		70.22	9
10	Saracens		68.63	10
11	Glasgow Warriors		66.64	11
12	Northampton Saints		65.74	12
13	Montpellier		65.72	13
14	Ulster		64.61	14
15	Castres Olympique		63.38	15
16	Scarlets		63.16	16

But that's just crap we have to swallow under the current system.

Under my proposal, the Ladyboys' seed 2 challengers would have come from #s 9-16.

[ed] Who wouldn't have (hand on heart) preferred not to see the best teams in the K-O stages?

How are Leicester 2nd seeds and Ulster 14?

Going by current ranking its

1 ASM Clermont Auvergne 100.00 1

2 Leinster 91.50 3 1

3 Saracens 90.89 2 1

4 Ulster 85.34 6 2

5 Harlequins 84.19 5

6 Toulon 83.09 4 2

7 Racing Metro 92 79.84 7

8 Castres Olympique 77.06 12 4

9 Montpellier 76.86 8 1

10 Leicester Tigers 76.30 9 1

11 Perpignan 74.67 10 1

12 Glasgow Warriors 73.72 16 4

13 Northampton Saints 73.37 15 2

14 Toulouse 73.33 11 3

15 Ospreys 69.90 13 2

16 Munster 69.20 14 2

Because the rankings are based on the last thirty games played GG.

It's based on form.

Look at the current table and tell me how you disagree with it.

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:Griff when you mean some qualification you mean that only 11 teams get into the HC instead of all 12? Doesn't sound like particular tough qualification to me!

Kingshu Connacht's best bet at qualification for the HC is not through their own efforts currently. They basically ride the coat tails of Munster,Leinster and Ulster. I don't like that.

As things stand in the league table Connacht would deserve to go into the Amlin. Plus they would hardly be a big loss.

I know winning more than 1 match in the HC is a huge achievement for them but when two of those wins was vs the aforementioned Zebre it kind of puts things into perspective.

I know Pro12 fans on here think they are a great side. Solidarity and all that.

Connacht have the most difficult qualification route to the H-cup out of anybody, new rules will prob make it easier for them to qualify for Europe.
I think its easier to finish in the top 6 of the jeff than to have to finish above the H-cup semi finalists, and last years winners and finalists.

As mentioned in other threads you never complained about English teams getting in before, and we are all aware that you are anti-Connacht, you don't have an issue with Treviso or Cardiff blues, yet Connacht could finish about both of them in the league, and you still single Connacht out?

Not sure why you are complaining. Under what I suggested Connacht would be able to qualify from their own merits. Plus Connacht can hardly feel hard done by missing out qualification in the past. How often do they finish in the top 6?

Cardiff have won the Amlin and have actually got to the semi final of the HC so at least have shown some form in European competitions. As things stand they are above Connacht in the Pro12 table as well.

Treviso are relatively new to the Pro12 and despite this have made great strides - currently ahead of Cardiff and Connacht. They contribute to the Italian rugby side so do serve an important purpose.

What has Connacht actually achieved? Would anyone really miss their participation in the HC? Probably not. The other 3 Irish regions would be much missed absentees but not the 4th one.

Having Scottish and Italian representation in the HC is important.

GunsGerms wrote:I dont care who Leinster get as long as it isnt Clermont, again!!! Not sure how two of the best teams in the comp can be in the same group. Id be more worried about that.

They can't get them.

Top seeds for next year will be

Leinster
Toulouse
Clermont
Toulon
Munster

Unless...... Sarries win the HC or Biarritz win the Amlin. Then one of them will be in instead of Munster, or if both win Toulon also.

Everyone happy with that?

I'd struggle to believe or concede that Munster are a no. 1 seed unless they go a long way in the HEC.

Currently on form they are 16th in the Euro table.

greytiger wrote:I'd struggle to believe or concede that Munster are a no. 1 seed unless they go a long way in the HEC.

Currently on form they are 16th in the Euro table.

OK will you be happy if Sarries get in ahead of them then?

Why not?

I may not agree with the way in which rugby is administered financially or on the pitch.

But I'm not about to contest objective cold, hard facts over subjective bias.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

greytiger wrote:I'd struggle to believe or concede that Munster are a no. 1 seed unless they go a long way in the HEC.

Currently on form they are 16th in the Euro table.

OK will you be happy if Sarries get in ahead of them then?

I think Sarries deserve to be 1st seed only if we can win the HC. Going to be very tough though. Certainly deserve to be 2nd seeds.

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

greytiger wrote:I'd struggle to believe or concede that Munster are a no. 1 seed unless they go a long way in the HEC.

Currently on form they are 16th in the Euro table.

OK will you be happy if Sarries get in ahead of them then?

I think Sarries deserve to be 1st seed only if we can win the HC. Going to be very tough though. Certainly deserve to be 2nd seeds.

I believe that form is the key.

Nobody deserves anything.

greytiger wrote:I'd struggle to believe or concede that Munster are a no. 1 seed unless they go a long way in the HEC.

Currently on form they are 16th in the Euro table.

They are a semi finalist in the HCup so they cant be bad.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I dont care who Leinster get as long as it isnt Clermont, again!!! Not sure how two of the best teams in the comp can be in the same group. Id be more worried about that.

They can't get them.

Top seeds for next year will be

Leinster
Toulouse
Clermont
Toulon
Munster

Unless...... Sarries win the HC or Biarritz win the Amlin. Then one of them will be in instead of Munster, or if both win Toulon also.

Everyone happy with that?

Thank fook. Anyone see Fofana's try v Toulouse over the weekend?

I think he is the best centre in the world right now.

Sorry slight correction. If it's a Munster Sarries Final (unlikely in fairness) and Sarries win. Toulon would drop out, not Munster.

greytiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

greytiger wrote:I'd struggle to believe or concede that Munster are a no. 1 seed unless they go a long way in the HEC.

Currently on form they are 16th in the Euro table.

OK will you be happy if Sarries get in ahead of them then?

I think Sarries deserve to be 1st seed only if we can win the HC. Going to be very tough though. Certainly deserve to be 2nd seeds.

I believe that form is the key.

Nobody deserves anything.

Of course no one "deserves" anything. I think that is the root of shocked's hatred of Connacht. He has a picture in his head of who is in front of who that is hard for him to change. Sadly he is mostly right in that Connacht (while they can raise their game to destroy Leinster) have not been consistent enough to demand HC rugby. They are a side that can beat most teams "on their day" but tend to lose games too regularly.

Personally I think there is a balance to be had between "form" and "class". The balance is skewed too far against "form" at the moment. But imho the answer is not to shift to the Eurowhatsits which are based "solely" on form.

I would leave the points as they are for 1st 2 years (I think it is about right that an Amlin win is about the same or more valuable that a HC quarter, but an Amlin runner up is not)

Then they should drop the points to 75% for year 3, 50% for year 4, and even 25% for year 5

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I dont care who Leinster get as long as it isnt Clermont, again!!! Not sure how two of the best teams in the comp can be in the same group. Id be more worried about that.

They can't get them.

Top seeds for next year will be

Leinster
Toulouse
Clermont
Toulon
Munster

Unless...... Sarries win the HC or Biarritz win the Amlin. Then one of them will be in instead of Munster, or if both win Toulon also.

Everyone happy with that?

You only have 5 teams there,isn't it 6 top seeds?