Lions weaknesses

First topic message reminder :

With the selection made and the current squad packing their bags, where do you think we have the most potential weaknesses? (this is not a country bashing thread btw).

For my opinion I think we have the squad to make a good strong team, but with any touring squad there are a few areas that are relatively weaker than others

Front Row - I think an area of strength, certainly with the first choice. There are some concerns over the bench on hooker, I do not actually think it is really that weak. Our third sting options (In my opinion Stevens and Vinoploa) are weaker / untested - but as third string should not have an impact

Second row - lots of options and some good strength - main concern if the fitness of Gray and POC, both coming back from injury - if they come up to their potential - I think we have a very strong group to choose from

Back row - big debate over Lydiate and Croft and their fitness / form - while still a concern, there are good options in the back row. With the addition of croft, we have some varying styles we can go with. Only other concern is has Gatland put a rod up his back with a captain who may not be the best in his position?

Scrum half - Actually think this is a slightly weaker area. - Philips at his best is very good, but apart from the England game, he was fairly poor in the 6 nations. Additonally his style may not always suit playing Australia. Youngs can be sublime, but not sure he is firing on all cylinders, but he does offer a different challenge to Australia. Murray is a less experiences Phillips. Not sure if there was anyone else really putting their hand up to fly (Maybe Care), which has left us a little weaker here

10 - Weak area - mainly because we have only 2. One is going through a little bit of a dip (and is slightly limited) and one coming back from injury. Will the tour re-invigorate Farrel and will he cope with the pressure. He is not nearly as bad as some people say, or as good as others say. The fact that Hogg may be shoe horned in (after not playing there since school (which to be fair is only 2 weeks agao :-0 )) shows we are short of options

12 / 13 - Weak / Medium- we have limited options to mix around 12 coupled with a grand dad who was (and could still be) world class, but will he survive. We have a strong runner, but off form and some questions about his passing and awareness and a strong performer, but needs to click. Could be a strength if it comes together, but an area to watch

Wings - Strong area - good mix of styles and strike runners. Might have been nice to have a bolter here, as the only area I think we are lacking is the magic dust of pixie feet

Full back - Strong area - 3 very good full backs - all offering something slightly different - if they all hit form, we are spoilt for choice


Gatland - Medium - brought Wales forward and has developed them into the leading NH team, but can he adapt enough to get that win over Australia - if Plan A is not working, does he have the guile to create and execute Plan B - at the moment I am not sure


Over all, I think we have a medium to strong squad - which may get stronger as some of the players gain fitness


Final note - Fans - Very strong (if sometimes a little mental )

nice to read some positives about biggar. i cannot understand why welsh supporters are not more vocal about the obvious turn around in biggar and the player he has become.

still, even when steven jones was the lions 10, you had blinkered welsh supporters screaming for the 10's of yesteryear. not a good word to say about jones' achievement.

the game has moved on, and anyone who thinks 'dink and jink' against the aussies will work are mistaken, we cannot compete in that type of game, we will be bish and bash. like it or not, entertained or not , thats the way it is.

gavstar wrote:nice to read some positives about biggar. i cannot understand why welsh supporters are not more vocal about the obvious turn around in biggar and the player he has become.

still, even when steven jones was the lions 10, you had blinkered welsh supporters screaming for the 10's of yesteryear. not a good word to say about jones' achievement.

the game has moved on, and anyone who thinks 'dink and jink' against the aussies will work are mistaken, we cannot compete in that type of game, we will be bish and bash. like it or not, entertained or not , thats the way it is.

I would say that Sexton has shown plenty of flair as a controlling ten. The decision is never a dink and jink versus a pragmatic territory kicking player. It is rather a player who has skills and can read and empathise with a game versus players who lack skills, or lack empathy.

Barry John had all the attributes, I even saw him tackle once, (he claimed he didn't need to because it was a part of the game that JPR behind him relished).

Biggar and Sexton both show a good understanding and an empathy with the game they are competing. As does Rhys Priestland, I can see why he is valued. Though with Priestland his personal skill level drops with lack of self confidence when he makes a mistake. Biggar and Sexton are almost unflappable these days, any mistake is shrugged off and focus on the next element is imperative.

Biggar and Sexton are two similar players. Which again mystifies me to why Farrell is included ? He has a great deal to prove on this tour.

yes agree sexton and biggar similar. as for farell, well is it dads vote? going could be the make or break for farrell. it's happened before.

on reflection maybe biggar is well out of this one.

Sexton brings a very good attacking game and a solid defence. Biggar is not a big tackler, very conservative and goes for a drop-goal when it clearly isn't on. Sexton and Biggar couldn't be more dissimilar. Farrell has been getting a lot of unfair criticism on here in my opinion, although nowhere near as much as some welsh players have had.

TJ wrote:Phillips does not just look slow - e is seriously slow to get the ball out. He has other attributes - especially his defensive tackling but he is poor at the primary duty of a SH in getting the ball away from the breakdown quickly

its not what he does that is the issue - its what he doesn't do.

if thats what you think the primary role of a 9 is then you must believe Danny care is the greatest SH of all time?

dan biggar is an excellent tackler and also has a good turn over record .
he is involved in far more aspects of play than farrell.
many times you will see biggar has been the one player who gets a lastman tackle in.

he has not had the recognition he deserves , his rate of progress throughout the 6ns was outstanding, his time will come.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

TJ wrote:Phillips does not just look slow - e is seriously slow to get the ball out. He has other attributes - especially his defensive tackling but he is poor at the primary duty of a SH in getting the ball away from the breakdown quickly

its not what he does that is the issue - its what he doesn't do.

if thats what you think the primary role of a 9 is then you must believe Danny care is the greatest SH of all time?

Oh no - plenty better than Care. He is however a far better SH than Philips even with his flaws simply because his speed gives the 10 a couple of seconds extra

Biggar is one of those players that doesn't get the credit he deserves; maybe it's something about his personality and the fact that he has been too headstrong in the past. He has knuckled down over the past 18 months and kept his gob shut and he is slowly becoming the player we anticpated he would become. If he keeps his feet on the ground and maintains a level head he will be a great 10 for Wales

I actually think Biggar got a lot of credit since the 6 Nations. Still, he isn't great in my eyes and has a lot to work on.

Nobody is saying he's great Roger

TJ wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

TJ wrote:Phillips does not just look slow - e is seriously slow to get the ball out. He has other attributes - especially his defensive tackling but he is poor at the primary duty of a SH in getting the ball away from the breakdown quickly

its not what he does that is the issue - its what he doesn't do.

if thats what you think the primary role of a 9 is then you must believe Danny care is the greatest SH of all time?

Oh no - plenty better than Care. He is however a far better SH than Philips even with his flaws simply because his speed gives the 10 a couple of seconds extra

Agreed. Phillips brings his own qualities but they aren't the primary role of a scrum-half. Look at Jonny Sexton, probable starter, he has much preferred the quicker pace of Eoin Reddan, who is no world beater, to the likes of Tomas O'Leary, Isaac Boss and to some extent Conor Murray.

RubyGuby wrote:Nobody is saying he's great Roger

It's the Saint,pal.

The Saint wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Nobody is saying he's great Roger

It's the Saint,pal.

Go look who The original and real Saint is Roger

RubyGuby wrote:

The Saint wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Nobody is saying he's great Roger

It's the Saint,pal.

Go look who The original and real Saint is Roger

Aha! Good man .

Well done, now lend me that fancy Volvo P1800 you drive

Wasn't I driving a mini back then?

No - a white P1800 with the number plate ST 1

Riskysports,
I like your summary. Agree with some points, disagree with a few others, but it’s a good summary.

Front Row:
For me, I don’t understand the Gethin Jenkins pick. He is a good player, but his club has him behind a Lions eligible player who was not selected. For this to happen at a club which is so focused on win at all costs, it shows they clearly don’t rate him so high. As an aside, has Jenkins obtained his early release from Toulon to be on the plane to Hong Kong?

I also don’t like the Matt Stevens selection. Vunipola could turn out to be all right, I think.

I like the Hartley selection, but not Tom Youngs. I think it was a big loss not to have Rory Best.

Second Row:
Paul O’Connell has me worried. Formerly a great player, but I think having just returned after injuries is a bridge too far. I simply don’t think there is much left on his tyres. I will be pleasantly surprised if he is still playing by the end of the series. But will he be good enough? And does Gatland have what it takes to drop him if needed?

Back Row;
Frankly it is an area of strength. I am aware of Croft’s history, and a year off can take a huge edge off the player. I put him in with Paul O’Connell and are worried about his ability to last the series. At least he had the full year off to regain his strength. I probably would have picked Tom Wood instead.

Scrum Half:
Not really worried here, unless Philips returns to his slow delivery and starts the team crabbing across the pitch. I would have Youngs as the Lions starter and Philips as the sub. I am not sure Gatland agrees, however.

Fly Half:
I do worry here. Sexton is fine, and Farrell can win matches. I can only hope Jonny is actually available and all the interviews saying the opposite are a smokescreen. This scenario wouldn’t surprise me at all.

Centres:
Can we have a few more please? Brian O'Driscoll has me worried in the same way as O'Connell and Tom Croft. Will he survive and be playing well? Shame. We need vintage O'Driscoll.

Wings/Fullback: Generally OK here.

Most positions will sort themselves out but I do think that the fly half situation could be serious. Sexton is the real deal but is coming off a serious injury. If we are lucky then he is going to be fresh. Unlucky and hes going to be delicate/ off form. Farrell, despite all the hate, is a good player and at his best I wouldn't have a worry about him playing. But again hes done a hell of a lot in this season and all the signs/reports suggest he is fatigued and out of form .

After these two they all seem to be too young too old out of form or not good enough, or Dan Biggar...

theslosty wrote:

TJ wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

TJ wrote:Phillips does not just look slow - e is seriously slow to get the ball out. He has other attributes - especially his defensive tackling but he is poor at the primary duty of a SH in getting the ball away from the breakdown quickly

its not what he does that is the issue - its what he doesn't do.

if thats what you think the primary role of a 9 is then you must believe Danny care is the greatest SH of all time?

Oh no - plenty better than Care. He is however a far better SH than Philips even with his flaws simply because his speed gives the 10 a couple of seconds extra

Agreed. Phillips brings his own qualities but they aren't the primary role of a scrum-half. Look at Jonny Sexton, probable starter, he has much preferred the quicker pace of Eoin Reddan, who is no world beater, to the likes of Tomas O'Leary, Isaac Boss and to some extent Conor Murray.

I agree Phillips isn't the most talented 9, but I generally see the view is that would Gatland replace Phillips role with any other 9 in the orld right now? I'd say Genia would be a tactic changer alone, but aside from that the answers no, no other 9 is consistent enough, can organise and boss his pack enough, or has anywhere near big game experience or temperemant, Youngs, Laidlaw, Care, Dickson, Davies, Reddan and others are quicker with possibly a slicker distribution, but they cannot offer what Phillips offers, it is no coincidence that the Welsh team are very arganised in defence, agressive in the tackle area and play to a strict organised attacking plan.

yes , well there you go, will lady luck smile on dan biggar.

he'd be my first choice at the moment, taking the whole picture in with sexton and farrell at this particular time. could have been a series winning selection to have taken the 3.

Farrell and Hartley / Youngs. The two positions with poor cover. Unfortunately they are key positions

thebluesmancometh wrote:

theslosty wrote:

TJ wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

TJ wrote:Phillips does not just look slow - e is seriously slow to get the ball out. He has other attributes - especially his defensive tackling but he is poor at the primary duty of a SH in getting the ball away from the breakdown quickly

its not what he does that is the issue - its what he doesn't do.

if thats what you think the primary role of a 9 is then you must believe Danny care is the greatest SH of all time?

Oh no - plenty better than Care. He is however a far better SH than Philips even with his flaws simply because his speed gives the 10 a couple of seconds extra

Agreed. Phillips brings his own qualities but they aren't the primary role of a scrum-half. Look at Jonny Sexton, probable starter, he has much preferred the quicker pace of Eoin Reddan, who is no world beater, to the likes of Tomas O'Leary, Isaac Boss and to some extent Conor Murray.

I agree Phillips isn't the most talented 9, but I generally see the view is that would Gatland replace Phillips role with any other 9 in the orld right now? I'd say Genia would be a tactic changer alone, but aside from that the answers no, no other 9 is consistent enough, can organise and boss his pack enough, or has anywhere near big game experience or temperemant, Youngs, Laidlaw, Care, Dickson, Davies, Reddan and others are quicker with possibly a slicker distribution, but they cannot offer what Phillips offers, it is no coincidence that the Welsh team are very arganised in defence, agressive in the tackle area and play to a strict organised attacking plan.

Sorry have to pull that up

Phillips was dire at the start of the 6 nations and for the first 3 matches the general call from fans was he should be dropped

He played well in one game against England

Not really what I would call consistent

Riskysports wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

theslosty wrote:

TJ wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

TJ wrote:Phillips does not just look slow - e is seriously slow to get the ball out. He has other attributes - especially his defensive tackling but he is poor at the primary duty of a SH in getting the ball away from the breakdown quickly

its not what he does that is the issue - its what he doesn't do.

if thats what you think the primary role of a 9 is then you must believe Danny care is the greatest SH of all time?

Oh no - plenty better than Care. He is however a far better SH than Philips even with his flaws simply because his speed gives the 10 a couple of seconds extra

Agreed. Phillips brings his own qualities but they aren't the primary role of a scrum-half. Look at Jonny Sexton, probable starter, he has much preferred the quicker pace of Eoin Reddan, who is no world beater, to the likes of Tomas O'Leary, Isaac Boss and to some extent Conor Murray.

I agree Phillips isn't the most talented 9, but I generally see the view is that would Gatland replace Phillips role with any other 9 in the orld right now? I'd say Genia would be a tactic changer alone, but aside from that the answers no, no other 9 is consistent enough, can organise and boss his pack enough, or has anywhere near big game experience or temperemant, Youngs, Laidlaw, Care, Dickson, Davies, Reddan and others are quicker with possibly a slicker distribution, but they cannot offer what Phillips offers, it is no coincidence that the Welsh team are very arganised in defence, agressive in the tackle area and play to a strict organised attacking plan.

Sorry have to pull that up

Phillips was dire at the start of the 6 nations and for the first 3 matches the general call from fans was he should be dropped

He played well in one game against England

Not really what I would call consistent

I agree the general concensus of fans was that Phillips was too slow, ponderous and wasn't good enough, but then what the general fan knows about the in's and out's of the game is severely lacking.

Phillips in the last 12 months has become one of Wales most important players, everything ball in hand goes through Phillips, he marshalls his pack like no other, he box kicks long (which most people hate but can't get their head around it being a pre determined tactical decision), he takes pressure off every 10 he plays with, he takes responsibility, he makes breaks, scores key tries, and makes hard yard as well as breaks.

I have been pretty critical of Phillips in the past, but the last 2 years he has been the best 9 in the NH by a mile, Parra has flashes of form, Yachvilli has the odd flash of brilliance, Youngs has hadf a flash of potential but none have been consistent threat to Phillips on the international stage.

For every criticism of Phillips we need to highlight an instance he has made a mistake, or been ponderous and I will show you why it isn't his responsibility, or fault. I was sat down just over 18 months ago and proved with video analysis by a pro coach proving why Phillips is a weapon you cannot ignore, and since then it has been hard to argue.

If wilko has turned down the chance to tour does this mean someone like Biggar will be called up? Sexton is great when things are going well but I don't know if it was the presence of rog on the bench but when things went wrong he looked flustered and lost composure. That may be harsh on him because I'm judging that a lot on what I've seen against nz and kidney's gameplan of hot potato kick the ball when you get it. Farrell was told to cool down his fiery instincts which could be seen as a criticism of his game temperament. The thing that stood out for me with Biggar is that when he made a mistake like a charge down or a bad pass it didn't get to him and impact on the rest of his game. Those attributes will come handy in a tough touring environment.

For those of you saying that Farrell is a 'Daddy's choice' you obviously know nothing about the man. Secondly even if Gatland did allow himself to be swayed by this sort of nepotism is says far worse things about Gatland than it does about Farrell.

Make no mistake about it, this was Gatland's call and he is the one that will have to live or die by it.

Weaknesses under Gatland:
1 Team selection, he does not pick on form (Lydiate, Stevens and D Biggar and R Jones not picked + others)

2 Tactics, one trick pony no plan B Wales play like Wasps played 10 years ago i.e., big pack with bland low risk rugby

3 10's, having only two and they are both flakey under pressure but not as bad as Preistland.

Philips, like any player, has his weaknesses...he is not a classic 9 in the sense his service is slower. But he is a huge physical force, a great warrior and also a big game player who has brought Wales home on many occassions. He will start unless Youngs is on fire because he is a Lion and although he won't compete directly with genia he will bring his experience to bear

100%beefy wrote:Philips, like any player, has his weaknesses...he is not a classic 9 in the sense his service is slower. But he is a huge physical force, a great warrior and also a big game player who has brought Wales home on many occassions. He will start unless Youngs is on fire because he is a Lion and although he won't compete directly with genia he will bring his experience to bear

this is the point that some welsh canno0t conceed. His service is slow. No doubt at all. You may consider his other attiributes make him worth playing despite this - I do not. Gatland clearly does.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

I have been pretty critical of Phillips in the past, but the last 2 years he has been the best 9 in the NH by a mile, Parra has flashes of form, Yachvilli has the odd flash of brilliance, Youngs has hadf a flash of potential but none have been consistent threat to Phillips on the international stage.

For every criticism of Phillips we need to highlight an instance he has made a mistake, or been ponderous and I will show you why it isn't his responsibility, or fault. I was sat down just over 18 months ago and proved with video analysis by a pro coach proving why Phillips is a weapon you cannot ignore, and since then it has been hard to argue.

Just watch any game from the 6 nations.; He is slow and ponderous. he is slow to the breakdown, he is slow to act when there and he is slow to get his pass away - only fractions of a second byut it robs his 10 of time. I was screaming at him in one game because as he tried to get to the breakdown and get a pass away the defense closed the gaps as they had the time to do so.

Parra is a far far better player. n there are a dozen SHs in the NH that are better than philips

I am not a Phillips fan - he can be an idiot at times (e.g. McD's) and yes when hes not at his best he can be a liability, but... and its a big but. He can do things, sometimes, that change games.

There are not many players who can grab a game and change its direction. Of the Lions that are going I'd say Manu is another one - and he gets plenty of abuse for the times he doesnt do something amazing, just a bit like Phillips.

TJ wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Philips, like any player, has his weaknesses...he is not a classic 9 in the sense his service is slower. But he is a huge physical force, a great warrior and also a big game player who has brought Wales home on many occassions. He will start unless Youngs is on fire because he is a Lion and although he won't compete directly with genia he will bring his experience to bear

this is the point that some welsh canno0t conceed. His service is slow. No doubt at all. You may consider his other attiributes make him worth playing despite this - I do not. Gatland clearly does.

so does the rest of wales and any 09 lions fan

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Philips, like any player, has his weaknesses...he is not a classic 9 in the sense his service is slower. But he is a huge physical force, a great warrior and also a big game player who has brought Wales home on many occassions. He will start unless Youngs is on fire because he is a Lion and although he won't compete directly with genia he will bring his experience to bear

this is the point that some welsh canno0t conceed. His service is slow. No doubt at all. You may consider his other attiributes make him worth playing despite this - I do not. Gatland clearly does.

so does the rest of wales and any 09 lions fan

TJ I need you to clarify what you mean by 'service', do you mean his pass? Do you mean his attempts to get the ball into his hand? do you mean him getting to the breakdown? Or do you mean all these things encompassed?

Give me examples of how slow Phillips is, and I will explain to you how it isn't Phillips himself that is the problem in each example.

Ok, before this gets to a Phillips thread, lets move on

He has some great attributes and some flaws as a 9. He suites the Welsh tactics and can be a force

Riskysports wrote:Ok, before this gets to a Phillips thread, lets move on

He has some great attributes and some flaws as a 9. He suites the Welsh tactics and can be a force

What do you mean? This is a weakness thread, and there are a few who think Phillips himself is a weakness, hence it is a Phillips thread. We need to discuss the players who divide us so, thats the beauty of it!!!

Hes also a 'big game player', often times in the past when he is needed to rise to the occasion, he does.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Riskysports wrote:Ok, before this gets to a Phillips thread, lets move on

He has some great attributes and some flaws as a 9. He suites the Welsh tactics and can be a force

What do you mean? This is a weakness thread, and there are a few who think Phillips himself is a weakness, hence it is a Phillips thread. We need to discuss the players who divide us so, thats the beauty of it!!!

I just do not want to get it side tracked by only one player

But happy to continue :-)

I think Philips is a weakness, in the terms of how I would like us to play.

However, I think gatland is looking to play a lot of power and size, and in that format, Philip's weaknesses are less exposed and it plays to his strength as a 8.5

Philips did not have a good 6 nations, and up until the last game he was being called to be dropped by Welsh fans across the board as he was slow, spent time puffing his chest out and talking back to the ref and generally mis firing.

he had a very good game against England, but that is just one game.

I am concerned that with him at 9, out backs will lose the extra time they need and the Ozzies will pressure our backs.

However, maybe having large backs that can take the ball into contact and suck in defence will work - it is just not how I would play it

Riskysports wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Riskysports wrote:Ok, before this gets to a Phillips thread, lets move on

He has some great attributes and some flaws as a 9. He suites the Welsh tactics and can be a force

What do you mean? This is a weakness thread, and there are a few who think Phillips himself is a weakness, hence it is a Phillips thread. We need to discuss the players who divide us so, thats the beauty of it!!!

I just do not want to get it side tracked by only one player

But happy to continue :-)

I think Philips is a weakness, in the terms of how I would like us to play.

However, I think gatland is looking to play a lot of power and size, and in that format, Philip's weaknesses are less exposed and it plays to his strength as a 8.5

Philips did not have a good 6 nations, and up until the last game he was being called to be dropped by Welsh fans across the board as he was slow, spent time puffing his chest out and talking back to the ref and generally mis firing.

he had a very good game against England, but that is just one game.

I am concerned that with him at 9, out backs will lose the extra time they need and the Ozzies will pressure our backs.

However, maybe having large backs that can take the ball into contact and suck in defence will work - it is just not how I would play it

I have to disagree, his performance V England was ok but not great, mainly because he had a great platform and did little with it, he was however very good in all his 6N games, including the Ireland game where he was subbed off way too early!!! Wales had swung the game in their favour before he went off and Howleys useless tactical knowledge thought Williams would speed the game up, which it didn't!!

What I don't understand is that every talking about his speed see's it as a weakness, it clearly isn't as it's a tactical element pre determined by Gats, Phillips is a commander of his pack, he runs the structured no risk attack, and he keeps opposition rush defences slow (go back and watch how the rush defence struggles against Wales due to the unpredictability of Phillips attack plan).

You see Care's style of speed demonary is easily read by a defence who can predict and rush knowing whats coming, Phillips slower more structured attack (or Gatlands attack) is harder to read, defences are on their toes longer, scanning around, and Wales pick up offsides pretty well.

Look at Wales 'defencive' record in the 6N, this is partly attributed to the safe way they attack, tries are easiest from turnover ball, and Gats hates conceding from turnover ball, hence why we attack so structuresd and 1/2p doesn't fly into the line every chance he gets.

I see Wales attack as more like chess than rugby, they set their phases, in the right areas and wait for the mistakes to pounce on, they kick infeild and stay in control of the game even when they don't have the ball, Phillips generals the forwards, he mixes the pace of his delivery, he goes blind more than is expected then bang, big strike run from midfield and we're in. It works well, keeps defences committed heavily, and keeps them guessing.

I don't want to flog a dead horse here or be accused of WUMming but I fear the Lions weaknesses may all be in the top two inches! With Welsh and Irish players making up the bulk of the team and the captaincy, and lacking the mettle of Wilkinson at 10 (experience in pipping the Aussies in their own backyard on the biggest stage), will this Lions team have the mental fortitude to pull off a series win?

GloriousEmpire wrote:I don't want to flog a dead horse here or be accused of WUMming but I fear the Lions weaknesses may all be in the top two inches! With Welsh and Irish players making up the bulk of the team and the captaincy, and lacking the mettle of Wilkinson at 10 (experience in pipping the Aussies in their own backyard on the biggest stage), will this Lions team have the mental fortitude to pull off a series win?

Well surely the scottish are the only nation to have cause to bang that drum, being the most succesfull of us over the last few games?

I'm not sure why you've lumped the Irish in with the Welsh too, havn't they beaten them a few times recently too?

Maybe top one inch, GE ... or as we say down here "the 1%-ers". (the margins seems to get even smaller...)

The mental fortitude aspect will play a big part for sure. Who will want to win it more? The Lions usually become greater than the sum of their parts (which is why I enjoy watching them) and I must admit; I too get a fuzzy feeling watching your players who are mostly combatants in 6N/Club matches come together to form a Super British + NI amalgamation.

I get goose bumps just thinking about it! (note: but not as much 'fear goosebumps' as I did in the distant past)

Both teams do obviously aspire to glory - but who then will be better able to pull off their game plans over the 3 matches whilst also having a bit of luck with the bounce of the ball / referee's interpretation at crucial moments? Unfortunately, that last one will always happen at some stage/s and there's nothing we can really do about it. If you look at some of the past matches (esp. in 2001) the Lions got out of the blocks firing. They never looked back during the first Test.

However, in the 2nd and 3rd Tests - they also got ahead on the scoreboard early but were then overtaken by a Wallabies side desperate to win and who (maybe?) had more in reserve towards the end of each of those matches. It was still very close... it could have changed in a blink. That top two inches proved to be a telling factor in the last two games of our last series. The ebb and flow was still there - right up until the end - but I felt as though we would not lose in the last 10 minutes or so (once in front) due to the home-mental-fortitude advantage... plus the fact that it was our first ever series win. That was a massive motivation for the 2001 side. Deans' task is to get our blokes up to that same level (+more if possible) and it is the same for Gats, of course.

The level of fitness will be another factor of course but it's probably more difficult for a touring side to squeeze out that last drop of effort or summon up that brilliant special something (if behind on the scoreboard, say) and turn the game around when all the players on both sides are an absolutely spent force.

I find it odd that Phillips still sparks such debate. As far as I’m concerned, I imagine he’s one of the first names on the team sheet. We all know his deficiencies, but his attributes more than compensate – chiefly his warrior-like attitude and ability to grab a game by the scruff of the neck when the chips are down. Something he’s exhibited on numerous occasions during the last 2-3 years – far better than any Welsh player of the modern era.

The Lions are a little short of experienced players who can lead from the front and will likely make the test team. I’d say POC, BOD and Phillips will be the most reliable follow-me leaders on the field, who you know won’t take a backwards step or shrink when the pressure’s on. Of those three, I’d say of those Phillips is probably the most likely to start given his competition at SH (I hope they all do!). I hope Youngs and Murray have great tours early on – especially Youngs, as we’ll need a rapid SH as well, but I imagine Phillips is a sure starter – and I certainly don’t see him as a weakness (though I concede there are weak aspects of his game – just as there are for all players).

Riskysports wrote:

Philips did not have a good 6 nations, and up until the last game he was being called to be dropped by Welsh fans across the board as he was slow, spent time puffing his chest out and talking back to the ref and generally mis firing.

I think this statement is greatly exaggerated/untrue. Mike Phillips constantly has his detractors who also follow Wales, however these same fans usually call for vastly inferior 9's to start ahead of him (Tavis Knoyle, Lloyd Williams). The majority are happy with him and realise he's been vital to the team because of our recent influx of flaky and inexperienced 10's.
For the tests though, Youngs would be my choice because he would have a stormer behind that pack. Phillips or Murray would be as good though I guess.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Philips, like any player, has his weaknesses...he is not a classic 9 in the sense his service is slower. But he is a huge physical force, a great warrior and also a big game player who has brought Wales home on many occassions. He will start unless Youngs is on fire because he is a Lion and although he won't compete directly with genia he will bring his experience to bear

this is the point that some welsh canno0t conceed. His service is slow. No doubt at all. You may consider his other attiributes make him worth playing despite this - I do not. Gatland clearly does.

so does the rest of wales and any 09 lions fan

TJ I need you to clarify what you mean by 'service', do you mean his pass? Do you mean his attempts to get the ball into his hand? do you mean him getting to the breakdown? Or do you mean all these things encompassed?

Give me examples of how slow Phillips is, and I will explain to you how it isn't Phillips himself that is the problem in each example.

All three. he is slow to the breakdown. when he gets there he is slow in deciding what to do ie he has to look up because he has not focussed adn decided what to do on his way ther and then he is slow to get the pass away. Its completely his fault. He is slow over the ground, he is slow between the ears.

TJ wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Philips, like any player, has his weaknesses...he is not a classic 9 in the sense his service is slower. But he is a huge physical force, a great warrior and also a big game player who has brought Wales home on many occassions. He will start unless Youngs is on fire because he is a Lion and although he won't compete directly with genia he will bring his experience to bear

this is the point that some welsh canno0t conceed. His service is slow. No doubt at all. You may consider his other attiributes make him worth playing despite this - I do not. Gatland clearly does.

so does the rest of wales and any 09 lions fan

TJ I need you to clarify what you mean by 'service', do you mean his pass? Do you mean his attempts to get the ball into his hand? do you mean him getting to the breakdown? Or do you mean all these things encompassed?

Give me examples of how slow Phillips is, and I will explain to you how it isn't Phillips himself that is the problem in each example.

All three. he is slow to the breakdown. when he gets there he is slow in deciding what to do ie he has to look up because he has not focussed adn decided what to do on his way ther and then he is slow to get the pass away. Its completely his fault. He is slow over the ground, he is slow between the ears.

YEH and the other weakness is that Hogg won't be picked at fullback

TJ wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Philips, like any player, has his weaknesses...he is not a classic 9 in the sense his service is slower. But he is a huge physical force, a great warrior and also a big game player who has brought Wales home on many occassions. He will start unless Youngs is on fire because he is a Lion and although he won't compete directly with genia he will bring his experience to bear

this is the point that some welsh canno0t conceed. His service is slow. No doubt at all. You may consider his other attiributes make him worth playing despite this - I do not. Gatland clearly does.

so does the rest of wales and any 09 lions fan

TJ I need you to clarify what you mean by 'service', do you mean his pass? Do you mean his attempts to get the ball into his hand? do you mean him getting to the breakdown? Or do you mean all these things encompassed?

Give me examples of how slow Phillips is, and I will explain to you how it isn't Phillips himself that is the problem in each example.

All three. he is slow to the breakdown. when he gets there he is slow in deciding what to do ie he has to look up because he has not focussed adn decided what to do on his way ther and then he is slow to get the pass away. Its completely his fault. He is slow over the ground, he is slow between the ears.

slow, yes that is the first word that springs to mind (after BS)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MIA998nX_w

Is it cut and paste time to prove a point...nice ... can I have a Blue Peter Badge too.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scott-johnson-blasts-go-slow-mike-1890203

How about the Scottish Director Of Rugby Scott Johnson criticising Phillips for being too damn slow, sorry what am I saying this was when Mr J was the Ospreys Director of Rugby, now there's a predicament!.

A tribute video

It's so hard arguing a players case when you spout off what you do Beefy, the best thing you could do for Phillips case is bow out and let peope discuss it seriously, otherwaise they just attribute their feelings for you to Phillips and become unreasonably stubborn!

Also do me a favour and stop telling people your Welsh, it's nothing but a headache to the rest of us

Bluesman - its you that will not discuss this seriously.

the vast majority of us know Phillips is slow. the greats of the game agree, his former coaches agree.

You can argue that his other qualities outweigh this. You cannot seriously argue he has the speed of service of the quick guys.

TJ wrote:Bluesman - its you that will not discuss this seriously.

the vast majority of us know Phillips is slow. the greats of the game agree, his former coaches agree.

You can argue that his other qualities outweigh this. You cannot seriously argue he has the speed of service of the quick guys.

Technically I'm not arguing I'm defending a position. I never said Phillips was a speed demon, I never said he was a complete 9, my stance is that he's a weapon who has become very important for Wales and the standout 9 of the NH, which he has!

You are calling him slow and ponderous, please provide the evidence, I have worked with WRU analysts who provide plenty of reasons behind player actions, what you see as slow and ponderous is a game plan, executed very well!! Wales in the last 2 seasosns have controlled more ball, made less mistakes ball in hand, caused opposition to make more tackles and conced less tries than ever before, defence starts with attack in Gatlands mind, and Phillips executes his gameplan perfectly, what he lacks in general 9 play is more than made up for in his control, leadership and physical capacity, I wrote on a thread the other day it's scary that he's probably become Wales most important player!!