Les Kiss is Irelands defense coach again

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/sealed-with-a-kiss-29246577.html

I'm pretty happy with that announcement,Kiss is an excellent defense coach so it'll be good to see him back doing what he does best.My only concern is I hope Anthony Foley isn't left out in the cold,he needs to kept in Irish rugby whether with the national team or one of the provinces.

He sounds like a French tribute 80s rock band with a penchant for make up.

Of the many things you could fault Ireland got recently defence is not really a problem. I remember that wales game this year thinking how are they managing to hold their line?

I should have added that it's not confirmed by the IRFU yet but yeah Kiss is a very good defense coach.He wasn't defense coach for the 6N this year but he had been from 2009 years up to last summer and the only time we had a poor defense was when he was double jobbing as attack and defense coach.

His name used to get you into trouble if you Google it but he's become well known enough now that the adult section is well off the top page.

Kia, Les Kiss wasn't in charge of defence for the Welsh game, his role changed form defence coach to backs coach last year. Anthony Foley took over as defence coach.

I'm happy we've secured his services, but only as defence coach. I think Kiss and Schmidt will work great together. Foley as forwards coach maybe?

I think it would be good for Foley to earn his stripes elsewhere. I think it would stand to him long term to get some new perspectives.

I think Ireland needs a new forwards coach, someone other than Smal and Foley

Cheers gretgael. Well the backs looked good that day too. At least the first half...

The bloomin' first half is the reason we're at the cross-roads now!

There is always a part of a game when Ireland show they can play.... we're trying to hire coaches who know a rugby game lasts 80 minutes now.

But then when would some punters be without the cliche it was a game of two halves? Fitzpatrick would be fudged for one!

Golden wrote:I think it would be good for Foley to earn his stripes elsewhere. I think it would stand to him long term to get some new perspectives.

I think Ireland needs a new forwards coach, someone other than Smal and Foley

+1

I think it would be best if he either stayed in Munster or another club over seas, he is still relatively new to the coaching job and although he's done well I think he could learn more and potentially make a very, very good coach somewhere down the line.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Golden wrote:I think it would be good for Foley to earn his stripes elsewhere. I think it would stand to him long term to get some new perspectives.

I think Ireland needs a new forwards coach, someone other than Smal and Foley

+1

I think it would be best if he either stayed in Munster or another club over seas, he is still relatively new to the coaching job and although he's done well I think he could learn more and potentially make a very, very good coach somewhere down the line.

Bearing in mind that there are so many foreign coaches at the provinces, is it not a bit like sending coal to Newcastle sending Foley overseas!

Foley has worked under/for some top forwards coaches at Munster (Niall O'Donovan, former Ireland forwards coach), Jim Williams (Australian Fowards coach), Laurie Fisher (Brumbies Forwards coach), Gert Small (SA world cup winning forwards coach) & Rob Penney (former coach in the Canterbury/Crusaders International High Performance Academy).

He also spent some time with Toulouse and some Australian clubs broadening his horizons.

"Les Kiss and make up" - a headline coming to you soon!

In fairness to Axel, any team he has been involved with as either forards coach or defence coach, has improved that aspect under his reign. the Munster 'A' side made two B&I Cup finals with him in charge, winning one of them. When he was appointed forwards/defence coach with Munster the one thing that did improve was a reduction in tries conceeded. the Irish defensive effort under his tenureship was pretty good too, given that we played too much rugby without the ball at times.

It has a unique approach in that it falls into a 'bend-don't-break' ethos so it is the secondary line and cover scramble that prevent the score as well as the breakdown and choke-tackle tactics. An holistic approach to defending that has had huge benefits and is vital for us given we cannot rely on a blitz Bok style defence as we lack size across the park.

With more balance in the back row, ala Munster since January, going forward Ireland aren't far away from being good again. And consistant.

So........

Kidney goes even though everyone says he never really coached but mostly man-managed instead.

Kiss stays.

Foley stays?

Smal goes?

Was Smal responsible for what we saw on the field of play in the last few years? Exclusively responsible?

The defence has a good case for being retained.... but the man being retained didn't work on defence during some of our most resilient defensive moments (given our lack of attack using a defensive coach!)
So, Kiss gets to stay, and in defence too, even though Foley was responsible for some of the more outlandish defensive performances?

I've always thought the orchestator of what Ireland was doing on the field should walk. Who was responsible for the bad stuff that actually went on on the field? In the absence of Kidney as tactical coach, someone was doing tactics? - Who?

Sin é wrote:Foley has worked under/for some top forwards coaches at Munster (Niall O'Donovan, former Ireland forwards coach), Jim Williams (Australian Fowards coach), Laurie Fisher (Brumbies Forwards coach), Gert Small (SA world cup winning forwards coach) & Rob Penney (former coach in the Canterbury/Crusaders International High Performance Academy).

He also spent some time with Toulouse and some Australian clubs broadening his horizons.

Working under top coaches doesn't make you one ..... there are no decent Irish coaches because no one in the country understands the game except Eddie O'Sullivan and me. Fact.

SecretFly wrote:So........



Was Smal responsible for what we saw on the field of play in the last few years? Exclusively responsible?

No, Feek should get the boot. The scrum was the worst facit of Ireland's game over the last couple of years.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So........



Was Smal responsible for what we saw on the field of play in the last few years? Exclusively responsible?

No, Feek should get the boot. The scrum was the worst facit of Ireland's game over the last couple of years.

I'm stunned.

Go easy on him mate. He's just had a Kidney removed.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Go easy on him mate. He's just had a Kidney removed.

I like that

I think our skills and kicking was the worst physical attribute outside of game plan and shape/alignment.

Kiss did oversee some massive defensive performances also (Australia in the RWC for instance)

I think Smal should definitely go and personally I think that Foley should not be given a full Irish position yet. I can see him doing really well in a senior Irish full coaching role but maybe at this current time.

The Indo says that Joe will select the rest of his backroom team before the Irish Summer tour and that Joe and he may/will go to watch the games in person

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think our skills and kicking was the worst physical attribute outside of game plan and shape/alignment.

Kiss did oversee some massive defensive performances also (Australia in the RWC for instance)

I think Smal should definitely go and personally I think that Foley should not be given a full Irish position yet. I can see him doing really well in a senior Irish full coaching role but maybe at this current time.

The Indo says that Joe will select the rest of his backroom team before the Irish Summer tour and that Joe and he may/will go to watch the games in person

Relax Pete - I'd say that Foley knows he would learn a lot more working with Penney, a forwards coach who has been involved in the development of some of the greatest forwards in the professional era like McCaw, the Franks, Kieran Read etc from a young age. If he ends up with Ireland, its because Schmidt needs him. Lets not forget that Schmidt's cv is lacking any international experience (either coaching or playing).

Actually think it might be of benefit to Foley if he can land a head coach gig somewhere else in terms of his progression as a coach. I think he seems to be doing well in his temporary position with Ireland in as much as it's possible to assess his contribution as a fan (especially as part of a coaching staff that wasn't working well in general). But go overseas, get a little bit more experience and push himself out of his comfort zone, bulk up the CV and then come back to a provincial job or even the big job if he really excels.

Not many clubs he could go to learn something elsewhere that he wouldn't have learned staying with Munster - i.e., competing at the top end of European rugby with a fairly limited use of a chequebook.

I can see why he'd wouldn't have a problem getting a job elsewhere though as a coach!

I have a feeling Smal had a lot to do with the way Ireland have been playing. Although I don't know that, just a guess. I wouldn't be surprised if Schmidt tried to lure Gibbes away from Leinster.

Part of me doesn't want Foley because I want Ireland to get way from the Munster style of rugby. That's probably a bit harsh. I was just so frustrated by the Kidney era, I want a clean slate. I wasn't even to keen on Kiss.

I think Kiss is being groomed for the top job.He was in the running for it this time and is now being kept on so I wouldn't be surprised if he's the next coach after Schmidt.It might be a good appointment after he's learnt a bit more about good attacking play form Schmidt.

Notch wrote:Actually think it might be of benefit to Foley if he can land a head coach gig somewhere else in terms of his progression as a coach.

Everyone is looking at this backwards. Foley shouldn't be appointed for Foleys benefit, he's either a good coach or he isn't. This is typical jobs for the boys nonsence, its the same all over Ireland. Our coaches are all shoite so we appoint an overseas coach for them to work under and low and behold once said overseas coach moves on they are still shoite.

We have no decent coaches because there is no decent level grassroots rugby for people to learn. Ths schools system is pants, the AIB is a gloryfied pissup and provincial rugby is too big a step up for someone to cut their teeth. So what we are left with is this deluded plan to can take ex players and turn them into top level coaches by shadowing experienced coaches for couple of seasons.

If guys like Foley are serious about coaching they should clear off and prove themselves in a real job rather than get a leg up from the IRFU.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I have a feeling Smal had a lot to do with the way Ireland have been playing. Although I don't know that, just a guess. I wouldn't be surprised if Schmidt tried to lure Gibbes away from Leinster.

Part of me doesn't want Foley because I want Ireland to get way from the Munster style of rugby. That's probably a bit harsh. I was just so frustrated by the Kidney era, I want a clean slate. I wasn't even to keen on Kiss.

I'm the same and I agree that it does sound harsh. I think Smal had a pretty large impact on how we played if I am honest but I'd prefer a pretty mobile game plan to suit what I consider our strengths to be. I guess I just don't think Foley is ready yet but then again when it comes to coaching us fans generally don't know how much work they do on the inside except in extreme cases.

A couple of Irish coaches seem to do ok elsewhere Rods - some even coach their new teams to beat their old Irish provincial team in HCup semis even though they have a coach with SH accent and their old provincial team last won something when they were coaching them.

What leg-up as the IRFU given Foley. He started with some Munster under age teams and with every promotion has done well with his teams so you are being deluded otherwise if you think so.

No wonder Ireland can't beat NZ when they are continually brainwashed that Irish/NH bad, SH good.

Is this the Munster style of rugby that you disapprove of? (Munster 2000).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFJX3JbO3vU

What is wrong with it. I quite enjoyed this passage of play.

A dominant pack (at the set piece and the breakdown) will allow more opportunities for great attacking play. Which is the sort of style I would like to see Ireland employ. Therefore I think the "Munster way" will still be useful. Watching their pack led by O'Connell against the Harlequins was magnificent.

With a better back line (especially at 10 and 12) we could do all sorts of damage.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:A dominant pack (at the set piece and the breakdown) will allow more opportunities for great attacking play. Which is the sort of style I would like to see Ireland employ. Therefore I think the "Munster way" will still be useful. Watching their pack led by O'Connell against the Harlequins was magnificent.

With a better back line (especially at 10 and 12) we could do all sorts of damage.

Completely agree with the bolded part Rory, but we aren't going to be able to grow a physically dominant pack in comparison to some sides just through lack of sheer size. We can dominate packs at the breakdown and set piece but it is the collisions that must be won around the park which I would consider most important.

Munster have a serious engine and drive but when we have tried to apply that game to Ireland it has failed because the teams Ireland come up against are simply bigger.

We aren't made to pick and go repeatedly or to use one off runners, the latter unfortunately a huge part of Kidney's planning. I'd like to see us with a more mobile forward unit who are still going to be competitive at the breakdown and still very sharp in the set pieces.

What I am saying is, I think players like Ryan, POM, Healy, Tuohy should be the type of players we are looking for now as they are a bit more athletic than the likes of say DOC, Easterby, Court, POC. Obviously there is a need for some beef, you can't escape that and guys like POC are worth their weight in gold.

I just don't want us to keep trying to smash down the door when we'd be a much better and more successful team if we just turned the door handle by using a bit more guile and vision.

I do not think Foley is the guy to coach this way.

Saying Foley should go because he's a Munster style coach is a little too quick I think.

Schmidt is now in charge of overall tactics/gameplan...using the individual aspects of coaching his other coaches will hone. Therefore, Kiss will deal with defensive patterns but Joe will decide how much we rely on them in the overall design.

Foley might keep his forwards up to speed on forward skills but Schmidt would be the one blending forward player duties to that of the backs to bring about a more fluid relationship between both. I don't see how Foley would naturally suppress Schmidt's overall philosophy, he'd just adapt his coaching to Schmidt's overall gameplans.

So that's Kiss, Foley, Feek.... We'll talk Kidney back into things yet! Director of Rugby?

SecretFly wrote:Saying Foley should go because he's a Munster style coach is a little too quick I think.

Schmidt is now in charge of overall tactics/gameplan...using the individual aspects of coaching his other coaches will hone. Therefore, Kiss will deal with defensive patterns but Joe will decide how much we rely on them in the overall design.

Foley might keep his forwards up to speed on forward skills but Schmidt would be the one blending forward player duties to that of the backs to bring about a more fluid relationship between both. I don't see how Foley would naturally suppress Schmidt's overall philosophy, he'd just adapt his coaching to Schmidt's overall gameplans.

So that's Kiss, Foley, Feek.... We'll talk Kidney back into things yet! Director of Rugby?

That is a good point Fly

SecretFly wrote:Saying Foley should go because he's a Munster style coach is a little too quick I think.

You must excuse Pete, he just hates everything and anything to do with Munster, so can't help himself

Pete, you still have not explained what you dislike about Munster's style. All you've said is that only Munster can play it.

I'd imagine Healy could adopt ok to it. Heislip doesn't have the work ethic for it.

rodders wrote:If guys like Foley are serious about coaching they should clear off and prove themselves in a real job rather than get a leg up from the IRFU.

So you quote me, say I've got it backwards, have a little rant and then come to the exact same conclusion as me. Never change rodders!

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:If guys like Foley are serious about coaching they should clear off and prove themselves in a real job rather than get a leg up from the IRFU.

So you quote me, say I've got it backwards, have a little rant and then come to the exact same conclusion as me. Never change rodders!

haha! love it

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:If guys like Foley are serious about coaching they should clear off and prove themselves in a real job rather than get a leg up from the IRFU.

So you quote me, say I've got it backwards, have a little rant and then come to the exact same conclusion as me. Never change rodders!

A leopard can't change his spots notch ....

Sorry I wasn't saying you per se had got it backwards, more so the metaphorical everyone had. In fairness I hadn't actually read anyones posts.....

rodders wrote:

Sorry I wasn't saying you per se had got it backwards, more so the metaphorical everyone had. In fairness I hadn't actually read anyones posts.....

Quote of the day, rodders...you're on fire.

Jez, has peace just broken out here?! Wow, the sunshine really does put us all in a good mood!

Seriously though, while Foley has more to learn and going to pastures new would definately be of benefit to him and Ireland/Munster, to suggest he is merely an 'old boy' recruit and has not shown coaching apptitude is as ridiculous as suggesting that right now in May 2013 Ireland should be starting Eric Elwood at 10.

Elwood at 10???

Hmmmm....... well it would give us more strength in depth in that area.........

Elwood! What a guy!...hey anyone else remember that wee reverse pass he used to do to Hickie coming off the blindside wing?.... worked a treat until teams released it was the only backline move we had.... halcyon days!