Irelands plan for a future Coach

I maybe miles away and I'm sure people will tell me so but here goes.

When Smit turned Leinster into a SH style team and it showed that Irish players could play as well as anyone at the running game the IRFU put a plan in place to prepare for the next world cup.

Step one
Give Kidney a two year deal so as to keep Ireland ticking over and getting results (nothing good and nothing bad) telling him to keep picking the usual people that could do the job.

Step two
They knew the coaching postions in Ulster and Munster were coming up so they found coaches like Smit who could get the younger players and some of the older players playing fast skilled rugby like Leinster. They gave them two years to get the players up to speed and due to Kidney picking older less skilled players the younger players would have more game time against better players.

Step three
When kidney is finished they bring in a new coach who has the players who are already playing fast skillful rugby and all of them playing a simillar style. This coach would then have an easier job to get the players ready for the world cup.

It is a bit tongue in cheek but it is also serious. By the end of Kidney's contract we will have three teams built on skill, speed and phyiscal in the breakdown. Stand up Mr Bradley who has also been sent away to show that he can play the same game even though he has scottish backs who are notorius for poor play.

Thoughts.

I certainly hope your right but does the IRFU have that forethought?

Although he has got Edinburgh playing some good rugby and got them to the HC semi final im still not sold on Bradley.

Ireland need a new Director Of Rugby. And Phillip Browne moved aside also.

Both Browne and Kidney have failed their remits miserably. This is business and they have failed. Terminate them both or the mediocrity will continue.

The Dream team for both, would be O Shea and Schmidt. But I cant see them moving easily from success to the challenge that is Irish Rugby.

They would want major changes and the bods at the IRFU are not easily shifted.

The best thing for Ireland would be a completely fresh coach with no ties to any province or players who will pick on form. Well we can dream

Oh, here we go, o.k, so when the next coach does not win a grand slam, a World Cup and gain the no.1 spot in the world rankings who are you all going to look at then ? The Irish fans should show Declan Kidney a lot more respect, he has done a lot more with less players, perhaps you should realise that perhaps you do not have the players at the moment to achieve what you all think you should be achieving, but I have had this argument with the Irish on here before and have ended up being tarred and feathered so I guess I will leave you with this one last thought. Winning at regional/province level is one thing, but being able to take a step up and go one level higher at international is another. Perhaps your stars cannot make the step up.

Nope your wrong,no one expects Grand Slams or the number one spot,why do you continue to say this.

Lord I don't think Deccie is outliving his time because hes not winning slams etc, I love what Deccie has done. The problem is he is now becoming stale in his selection, much like O'Sullivan did he has his favorites and now's time to get new blood in before it starts to affect the team thats all

Brendan for Head Coach - it's settled. That's a lovely plan.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh, here we go, o.k, so when the next coach does not win a grand slam, a World Cup and gain the no.1 spot in the world rankings who are you all going to look at then ? The Irish fans should show Declan Kidney a lot more respect, he has done a lot more with less players, perhaps you should realise that perhaps you do not have the players at the moment to achieve what you all think you should be achieving, but I have had this argument with the Irish on here before and have ended up being tarred and feathered so I guess I will leave you with this one last thought. Winning at regional/province level is one thing, but being able to take a step up and go one level higher at international is another. Perhaps your stars cannot make the step up.

Its the coach Dowlais. Even an eejit can see that. Look what Gatland has done for a mediocre Wales. And he's a mediocre coach. But a far sight better than Kidney. True.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh, here we go, o.k, so when the next coach does not win a grand slam, a World Cup and gain the no.1 spot in the world rankings who are you all going to look at then ? The Irish fans should show Declan Kidney a lot more respect, he has done a lot more with less players, perhaps you should realise that perhaps you do not have the players at the moment to achieve what you all think you should be achieving, but I have had this argument with the Irish on here before and have ended up being tarred and feathered so I guess I will leave you with this one last thought. Winning at regional/province level is one thing, but being able to take a step up and go one level higher at international is another. Perhaps your stars cannot make the step up.

Yeah, I've heard that one about Kidney needing more respect and our players not being all we believe them to be. I'm not sure if it was you or some others saying so but yep, I've heard that in the past.

Where's that pot of Tar????

We'll see Lord. We'll see who is right - all I know is what's infront of me. Players who can't throw a ball to each other at International level can do it well enough to constantly get to the business end of HEC most years at Provincial level.

Now that requires explaining - and when that kind of thing happens, I go looking for the explanation off the coaching team. That's where the problem is. We Irish are sometimes dumb... but we ain't stupid

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh, here we go, o.k, so when the next coach does not win a grand slam, a World Cup and gain the no.1 spot in the world rankings who are you all going to look at then ? The Irish fans should show Declan Kidney a lot more respect, he has done a lot more with less players, perhaps you should realise that perhaps you do not have the players at the moment to achieve what you all think you should be achieving, but I have had this argument with the Irish on here before and have ended up being tarred and feathered so I guess I will leave you with this one last thought. Winning at regional/province level is one thing, but being able to take a step up and go one level higher at international is another. Perhaps your stars cannot make the step up.

Yeah, I've heard that one about Kidney needing more respect and our players not being all we believe them to be. I'm not sure if it was you or some others saying so but yep, I've heard that in the past.

Where's that pot of Tar????

We'll see Lord. We'll see who is right - all I know is what's infront of me. Players who can't throw a ball to each other at International level can do it well enough to constantly get to the business end of HEC most years at Provincial level.

Now that requires explaining - and when that kind of thing happens, I go looking for the explanation off the coaching team. That's where the problem is. We Irish are sometimes dumb... but we ain't stupid

And that is it in a nutshell, if you had said anything about tactics then I would be with you, but it is not Declan Kidney's fault that players go on to the field and not being able to throw the ball to each other, or constantly knocking the ball on or falling off tackles or even not being committed to the breakdowns or not being committed full stop.Doing it at provincial level is one thing, but going up one level to international is another and I do not see your players making the "step up" so to speak. Perhaps you should be looking at your players before you start throwing blame at the coach.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh, here we go, o.k, so when the next coach does not win a grand slam, a World Cup and gain the no.1 spot in the world rankings who are you all going to look at then ? The Irish fans should show Declan Kidney a lot more respect, he has done a lot more with less players, perhaps you should realise that perhaps you do not have the players at the moment to achieve what you all think you should be achieving, but I have had this argument with the Irish on here before and have ended up being tarred and feathered so I guess I will leave you with this one last thought. Winning at regional/province level is one thing, but being able to take a step up and go one level higher at international is another. Perhaps your stars cannot make the step up.

Yeah, I've heard that one about Kidney needing more respect and our players not being all we believe them to be. I'm not sure if it was you or some others saying so but yep, I've heard that in the past.

Where's that pot of Tar????

We'll see Lord. We'll see who is right - all I know is what's infront of me. Players who can't throw a ball to each other at International level can do it well enough to constantly get to the business end of HEC most years at Provincial level.

Now that requires explaining - and when that kind of thing happens, I go looking for the explanation off the coaching team. That's where the problem is. We Irish are sometimes dumb... but we ain't stupid

And that is it in a nutshell, if you had said anything about tactics then I would be with you, but it is not Declan Kidney's fault that players go on to the field and not being able to throw the ball to each other, or constantly knocking the ball on or falling off tackles or even not being committed to the breakdowns or not being committed full stop.Doing it at provincial level is one thing, but going up one level to international is another and I do not see your players making the "step up" so to speak. Perhaps you should be looking at your players before you start throwing blame at the coach.

Lord...throwing a ball to each other in open space is not something that requires more skill at International than it does at Provincial...or indeed many other aspects of the game don't require the step-up you talk about. This is training ground nonsense where players from two or three successful sides (some of them with quite different ideas on how to play rugby) meet up under a cloud of unclear coaching and fuzzy tactics and just are not given any firm gameplaying platform to play with. The Munster players are allowed be Munster players, the Leinster players fluff their Leinster lines, the 10 (whoever he is) kicks and kicks and kicks, gets criticised and kicks, is attacked in the press and kicks, loses games and kicks, has nightmares and still kicks - under direction, not because he likes the idea.

It's players without a dedicated backs coach, with a man-manager who side-steps the practical detail, and yes - the coach IS responsible for what happens out on the field. As I keep saying - these coaches get paid. Some of you seem to think they're cheerleaders or Mascots, patting players on the back and giving the old verbal gungho stuff at halftime. No, it's work and Kidney and his coaches are not doing their job.

Dowlais -

Surely you have seen your welsh brethren on here suggesting that Howley couldn't get the best out of the welsh players down under? That if Gatland had been there, the tour might have gone differently. Maybe you have even suggested it yourself, or agreed with the posters who said this (I agree with them, Gatland is pretty essential to this current welsh team IMO). Many people on here agree that Howley didn't do a great job.

Now, apply that to Kidney and this irish team. He isn't getting the best out of these players. His game plan does not suit the irish players. This isn't just regional and provincial rugby we are talking about either, you conveniently neglected the fact that the irish teams have been dominating european rugby for years now.

What do you think a coach is in charge of might I ask? What do you think he can take credit/take criticism for?

For what it is worth I don't think Kidney could ask for better players than those available to him. Healy, Best, Ryan, O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, O'Mahony, Murray, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Earls, Fitzgerald, Kearney.. and with an abundance of young stars coming through, which there is no point in me even going through. I am sure you will (and already have) see plenty playing against your welsh regions.

http://kidneyclock.net/

Not long to go!

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh, here we go, o.k, so when the next coach does not win a grand slam, a World Cup and gain the no.1 spot in the world rankings who are you all going to look at then ? The Irish fans should show Declan Kidney a lot more respect, he has done a lot more with less players, perhaps you should realise that perhaps you do not have the players at the moment to achieve what you all think you should be achieving, but I have had this argument with the Irish on here before and have ended up being tarred and feathered so I guess I will leave you with this one last thought. Winning at regional/province level is one thing, but being able to take a step up and go one level higher at international is another. Perhaps your stars cannot make the step up.

Yeah, I've heard that one about Kidney needing more respect and our players not being all we believe them to be. I'm not sure if it was you or some others saying so but yep, I've heard that in the past.

Where's that pot of Tar????

We'll see Lord. We'll see who is right - all I know is what's infront of me. Players who can't throw a ball to each other at International level can do it well enough to constantly get to the business end of HEC most years at Provincial level.

Now that requires explaining - and when that kind of thing happens, I go looking for the explanation off the coaching team. That's where the problem is. We Irish are sometimes dumb... but we ain't stupid

And that is it in a nutshell, if you had said anything about tactics then I would be with you, but it is not Declan Kidney's fault that players go on to the field and not being able to throw the ball to each other, or constantly knocking the ball on or falling off tackles or even not being committed to the breakdowns or not being committed full stop.Doing it at provincial level is one thing, but going up one level to international is another and I do not see your players making the "step up" so to speak. Perhaps you should be looking at your players before you start throwing blame at the coach.

Well hypothetically if this was true, should it not be Kidneys responsibilities to pick other players? players who are committed? Even if it was the players problem of commitment kidney will still not have done his job as he goes on picking the same players.

Kidney must go

The ideal guys to replace Kidney won't take or gewt the job but Kidney is not the only problem with Irish rugby and for the national side to work people have to realise that.

Thomond wrote:The ideal guys to replace Kidney won't take or gewt the job but Kidney is not the only problem with Irish rugby and for the national side to work people have to realise that.

No he's not the only problem. Some of his other coaches are proving they've probably given as much to Ireland as they can too. The IRFU too are implicated in their lax attitude to assistants for Kidney.
But sometimes you just have to change to change. Players might be underperforming but changing the guys who control the selection of players(and structure of the game) would be in my opinion the first step to working out what players need to be dropped and which ones need promotion. You can't keep giving the coaches another chance and another chance and yet say at the same time that every player Kidney has chosen continues to let him down again and again. There's only so long you can hang onto the logic of that before logic itself collapses. You eventually have to add 1 and 1.

I want Kidney gone and have for a while but much like the FAI and Trap the coach is only a symptom of the problem at large. Immediate success won't come with Kidney gone. We would improve if we played a style we are suited to however.

Yes, we would improve...because for one, at least we'd be heading in the right direction - into the 21st century where the best sides already are, and are a good few years ahead of us in practicing it.

Immediate success isn't a requirement. Of course a new sysstem needs bedding down and losses and embarrassing ones might come in that progress. But we all want to see our players playing a brand of rugby we know they can play, a brand they play in their League - a positive attacking brand that doesn't give such a big percentage of every 80 minutes to negative and non-productive, in-the-trenches defence.

The hope for Ireland is that they get O'Shea, but only after he's reached a point where he can set his own terms. The hope for Quins is that he's trained up a successor before that happens

Conor O'Shea would be wasted as Ireland head coach.

His ideal role would be head of the IRFU.

red_stag wrote:Conor O'Shea would be wasted as Ireland head coach.

His ideal role would be head of the IRFU.

That's what I suggested earlier. It would be tricky with the old IRFU bods. He would shake them up and change the board game. Which is what they need.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh, here we go, o.k, so when the next coach does not win a grand slam, a World Cup and gain the no.1 spot in the world rankings who are you all going to look at then ? The Irish fans should show Declan Kidney a lot more respect, he has done a lot more with less players, perhaps you should realise that perhaps you do not have the players at the moment to achieve what you all think you should be achieving, but I have had this argument with the Irish on here before and have ended up being tarred and feathered so I guess I will leave you with this one last thought. Winning at regional/province level is one thing, but being able to take a step up and go one level higher at international is another. Perhaps your stars cannot make the step up.

If I was a Welsh fan I'd be talking up Kidney too

profitius wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh, here we go, o.k, so when the next coach does not win a grand slam, a World Cup and gain the no.1 spot in the world rankings who are you all going to look at then ? The Irish fans should show Declan Kidney a lot more respect, he has done a lot more with less players, perhaps you should realise that perhaps you do not have the players at the moment to achieve what you all think you should be achieving, but I have had this argument with the Irish on here before and have ended up being tarred and feathered so I guess I will leave you with this one last thought. Winning at regional/province level is one thing, but being able to take a step up and go one level higher at international is another. Perhaps your stars cannot make the step up.

If I was a Welsh fan I'd be talking up Kidney too

Ah shucks...I didn't have the 'eart to suggest that to him myself. Go easy on Lord, profitius, I've him tarred already...but it'll take time for me to find enough feathers. Turkey plucking season hasn't started yet.

The trouble is Secretfly, is that you and other Ireland posters on here only seem to want to see the thing you want to, and not what realy is happening, until yo take your blinkers off and look at what the rest of the world are looking at then only then will you realise the truth.

Gibson wrote:

red_stag wrote:Conor O'Shea would be wasted as Ireland head coach.

His ideal role would be head of the IRFU.

That's what I suggested earlier. It would be tricky with the old IRFU bods. He would shake them up and change the board game. Which is what they need.

One thing about Philip Browne, the current CEO - he doesn't have any baggage/connections as his sport was rowing. It wouldn't take long for O'Shea to be accused of favouritism etc. if he got the job, considering he worked for the English RU.

LordDowlais wrote:The trouble is Secretfly, is that you and other Ireland posters on here only seem to want to see the thing you want to, and not what realy is happening, until yo take your blinkers off and look at what the rest of the world are looking at then only then will you realise the truth.

You look at Kidney and his coaching crew as sparkling achievers who is being maltreated by them lads what do be winnin' them HCs. "Play for us, lads!!! Please play for us! Yis are feckin' up our credentialistisms with this messin', boys!"

Right, we get you and the rest of the world, Lord. We'll bow to your superior knowledge and keener observations.

Now, Kidney is on the market for a decent price of between, let's say, £300,000 to £350,000 or thereabouts? That's a bargain for a genius in any world financial climate. Spread the word, Lord - world's best International coach for sale. Will respond to any reasonable offers....should they ever come.

profitius wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh, here we go, o.k, so when the next coach does not win a grand slam, a World Cup and gain the no.1 spot in the world rankings who are you all going to look at then ? The Irish fans should show Declan Kidney a lot more respect, he has done a lot more with less players, perhaps you should realise that perhaps you do not have the players at the moment to achieve what you all think you should be achieving, but I have had this argument with the Irish on here before and have ended up being tarred and feathered so I guess I will leave you with this one last thought. Winning at regional/province level is one thing, but being able to take a step up and go one level higher at international is another. Perhaps your stars cannot make the step up.

If I was a Welsh fan I'd be talking up Kidney too

Weirdly enough, Wales renewed Gatland's contract even though Wales were very poor at the time! Most people think he was lucky that an exceptional group of young players turned up when they did (though the way he has them playing the game, it won't be long before they are all broken).

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The trouble is Secretfly, is that you and other Ireland posters on here only seem to want to see the thing you want to, and not what realy is happening, until yo take your blinkers off and look at what the rest of the world are looking at then only then will you realise the truth.

You look at Kidney and his coaching crew as sparkling achievers who is being maltreated by them lads what do be winnin' them HCs. "Play for us, lads!!! Please play for us! Yis are feckin' up our credentialistisms with this messin', boys!"

Right, we get you and the rest of the world, Lord. We'll bow to your superior knowledge and keener observations.

Now, Kidney is on the market for a decent price of between, let's say, £300,000 to £350,000 or thereabouts? That's a bargain for a genius in any world financial climate. Spread the word, Lord - world's best International coach for sale. Will respond to any reasonable offers....should they ever come.

Yea, I'd love to see how Schmidt would cope if Mike Ross got injured in a game and he had to use Cian Healy as a tighthead!

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The trouble is Secretfly, is that you and other Ireland posters on here only seem to want to see the thing you want to, and not what realy is happening, until yo take your blinkers off and look at what the rest of the world are looking at then only then will you realise the truth.

You look at Kidney and his coaching crew as sparkling achievers who is being maltreated by them lads what do be winnin' them HCs. "Play for us, lads!!! Please play for us! Yis are feckin' up our credentialistisms with this messin', boys!"

Right, we get you and the rest of the world, Lord. We'll bow to your superior knowledge and keener observations.

Now, Kidney is on the market for a decent price of between, let's say, £300,000 to £350,000 or thereabouts? That's a bargain for a genius in any world financial climate. Spread the word, Lord - world's best International coach for sale. Will respond to any reasonable offers....should they ever come.

Yea, I'd love to see how Schmidt would cope if Mike Ross got injured in a game and he had to use Cian Healy as a tighthead!

Who mentioned Schmidt? Oh, that was you, Sin é - you mentioned him.
You continue to have faith in whoever floats your boat. I'll lose faith in whoever doesn't float mine. That's how it goes, unfortunately. People going in and out of favour.
But for you to listen to someone throw the old sly lines about ability (or lack thereof) at Irish players (Munster, Leinster, Ulster or Connacht ones) and hold up his drawers in support simply because you judge that the critics of the current coaching system are anti-Munster............... well that's what you'll do. I have more loyalty to the players (and belief in them) - all of them - than all that.

I'd swap Kidney for Andy Robinson any day of the week!

I didn't mention Munster. Unfortunately I have first hand experience of not having a good tighthead available - which is a problem Joe Schmidt hasn't had to endure.

Joe Schmidt & Eric Elwood are the only two coaches at the moment coaching in Ireland who have not had to deal with 22 man squads in recent time (Penney & Anscombe have plenty of experience of it from NZ).

If it came to it, Kidney could & would have had to use Devin Toner and not bring in Brad Thorn as Schmidt did. Ulster dropped Dec Fitz for Afoa for the HCup final - Kidney started him against NZ.

Do you even see Kidney does not have the same personnel as the provinces do?

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd swap Kidney for Andy Robinson any day of the week!

Money where your mouth is... Exiled. The IRFU will listen if the price is right...and they'll even let you keep Robinson (as one of those new mascot coaches everyone seems to be talking about these days)

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The trouble is Secretfly, is that you and other Ireland posters on here only seem to want to see the thing you want to, and not what realy is happening, until yo take your blinkers off and look at what the rest of the world are looking at then only then will you realise the truth.

You look at Kidney and his coaching crew as sparkling achievers who is being maltreated by them lads what do be winnin' them HCs. "Play for us, lads!!! Please play for us! Yis are feckin' up our credentialistisms with this messin', boys!"

Right, we get you and the rest of the world, Lord. We'll bow to your superior knowledge and keener observations.

Now, Kidney is on the market for a decent price of between, let's say, £300,000 to £350,000 or thereabouts? That's a bargain for a genius in any world financial climate. Spread the word, Lord - world's best International coach for sale. Will respond to any reasonable offers....should they ever come.

Yea, I'd love to see how Schmidt would cope if Mike Ross got injured in a game and he had to use Cian Healy as a tighthead!

Who mentioned Schmidt? Oh, that was you, Sin é - you mentioned him.
You continue to have faith in whoever floats your boat. I'll lose faith in whoever doesn't float mine. That's how it goes, unfortunately. People going in and out of favour.
But for you to listen to someone throw the old sly lines about ability (or lack thereof) at Irish players (Munster, Leinster, Ulster or Connacht ones) and hold up his drawers in support simply because you judge that the critics of the current coaching system are anti-Munster............... well that's what you'll do. I have more loyalty in the players (and belief in them) - all of them - than all that.

If we can't be accepting of other approaches and views without reverting to provincialism, then what hope has the national team of achieving anything.
Kidney is castrated by the innuendo and growing uncertainty of his job/role. O'Shea is the popular choice but is unlikely to be given the chance as he'll demand too much control. The provinces all play different styles and none of these translate to the national approach. We produce great international level depth in a number of positions but have glaring issues in others (the groundhog, second row, tighthead, etc.) and still have a core of highly necessary players around the squad in their twilight years because the youth coming through don't grab the jersey from their cold dead hands. But Kidney is stuck in a rut now, whether by he own actions or not, and we might need a fresh start to get out of it.

Sin é wrote:I didn't mention Munster. Unfortunately I have first hand experience of not having a good tighthead available - which is a problem Joe Schmidt hasn't had to endure.

Joe Schmidt & Eric Elwood are the only two coaches at the moment coaching in Ireland who have not had to deal with 22 man squads in recent time (Penney & Anscombe have plenty of experience of it from NZ).

If it came to it, Kidney could & would have had to use Devin Toner and not bring in Brad Thorn as Schmidt did. Ulster dropped Dec Fitz for Afoa for the HCup final - Kidney started him against NZ.

Do you even see Kidney does not have the same personnel as the provinces do?

There you go..you didn't mention Munster and I didn't mention Schmidt. And yet both of them get a mention by both of us Irish logic.

Meanwhile, Kidney (and his fellow coaches or lack of them!..I keep saying this, not only Kidney) has more history than a game without Ross.

So Fly, 3/10 in your attempt to avoid the elephant that is in the room - Kidney does not have the same playing personnel as the provinces do so its pointless comparing the success or non-success as the case maybe of Ireland & the Provinces.

I think having 3 NZ style coaches will hopefully remove the problem of mixing different styles.

We have alot of good players and it is only the fringe players that we fight over (for the most part). I do think that you have to play for your provience to play for Ireland. As much as I like madigan he isn't playing the big games for Leinster because Smit does not think he is good enough (same as Mcfadden) but we have other players playing at the top level.

Is there any country where coaches aren't considered to favour one club or another.

It is good to see we now have the token connacht player and not the token ulster player as it use to be.

Sin é wrote:

Gibson wrote:

red_stag wrote:Conor O'Shea would be wasted as Ireland head coach.

His ideal role would be head of the IRFU.

That's what I suggested earlier. It would be tricky with the old IRFU bods. He would shake them up and change the board game. Which is what they need.

One thing about Philip Browne, the current CEO - he doesn't have any baggage/connections as his sport was rowing. It wouldn't take long for O'Shea to be accused of favouritism etc. if he got the job, considering he worked for the English RU.

Much prefer Philip Browne to stay on as head of the IRFU then to apoint O'Shea. in fact I think Browne has done an excellent job. If I look at all the 6N unions I reckon the IRFU are probably one of the most organised and forward thinking of them all. Unfortunately this cant be said about the coaching or managment of the team. Far from it.

Sin é wrote:So Fly, 3/10 in your attempt to avoid the elephant that is in the room - Kidney does not have the same playing personnel as the provinces do so its pointless comparing the success or non-success as the case maybe of Ireland & the Provinces.

Are the IRFU going do see the 1 NIQ per position through. It is stupid that we have a good tight head up in ulster we is almost as good as Afoa but not getting game time. I think he would be up to speed by now if Afoa wan't first choice

Sin é wrote:So Fly, 3/10 in your attempt to avoid the elephant that is in the room - Kidney does not have the same playing personnel as the provinces do so its pointless comparing the success or non-success as the case maybe of Ireland & the Provinces.

2/10 for avoiding the issue. Ross (or lack of him) isn't responsible for the suicidal standing-off in defence when lethal sides attack with pace. Ross (or lack of him) isn't reponsible for the constant aimless kicking (no neither is O'Gara or Sexton) - they continue to do it because it's orders from on high. They've been rebuked for it in the media and by us (the followers) and it still happens. That's because it's an ancient design feature of stubborness, coming from someone in the background. You could say the same for the box kicks to nothing. Repetitive, highly predictable for the opponents to read...nothing to do with missing Ross. Absolutely criminal lack of attention to detail in ball handling skills - fluffed calls, non-communication of attacking ideas between backs and forwards, wandering 15s running off to do heroic 'fielding' and nothing - nothing - coming behind them in support to make the catch count on a scoreboard. I'm looking for Ross to be up there where well coached backs and wings should be? No, I don't need Ross to be there as savior, I need coaches demanding their backs are there. But they already have their orders - don't risk defence to attack, if in doubt, hold back.

No I'm not bluffing, Sin é. You're the one who repulses extended overviews in favour of bogging yourself down in one or two games when the chips were all against the persecuted coach. Talk about the lack of anything that resembles a cohesive gameplan. Even our win against Australia was force of will alone... it wasn't tactically positive, it was Irish blood-up and it worked. There is only a limited amount of times that 'intensity' can drag you over the line against the best sides.

LordDowlais wrote:The trouble is Secretfly, is that you and other Ireland posters on here only seem to want to see the thing you want to, and not what realy is happening, until yo take your blinkers off and look at what the rest of the world are looking at then only then will you realise the truth.

Lord, last season us Munster fans were being told the same from non Munster fans. We havn't the players etc etc. Now Penney has come in and is showing the different between a good coach and a bad coach.

What we can take from this is maybe a teams own fans know more about their own team than others. Its always good to get an outside perspective but it doesn't mean the outsiders know more.

Profitius,

To be fair I thought three of our best players so far have been Downey, Laulala and Sean Dougall.

We didn't have them last year.

red_stag wrote:Profitius,

To be fair I thought three of our best players so far have been Downey, Laulala and Sean Dougall.

We didn't have them last year.

My point is we had the players to play much better. Dougal and Lualala were missing at the weekend and Downey had a quiet game yet Munster played better in patches than they did for years under McGahan.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:So Fly, 3/10 in your attempt to avoid the elephant that is in the room - Kidney does not have the same playing personnel as the provinces do so its pointless comparing the success or non-success as the case maybe of Ireland & the Provinces.

2/10 for avoiding the issue. Ross (or lack of him) isn't responsible for the suicidal standing-off in defence when lethal sides attack with pace. Ross (or lack of him) isn't reponsible for the constant aimless kicking (no neither is O'Gara or Sexton) - they continue to do it because it's orders from on high. They've been rebuked for it in the media and by us (the followers) and it still happens. That's because it's an ancient design feature of stubborness, coming from someone in the background. You could say the same for the box kicks to nothing. Repetitive, highly predictable for the opponents to read...nothing to do with missing Ross. Absolutely criminal lack of attention to detail in ball handling skills - fluffed calls, non-communication of attacking ideas between backs and forwards, wandering 15s running off to do heroic 'fielding' and nothing - nothing - coming behind them in support to make the catch count on a scoreboard. I'm looking for Ross to be up there where well coached backs and wings should be? No, I don't need Ross to be there as savior, I need coaches demanding their backs are there. But they already have their orders - don't risk defence to attack, if in doubt, hold back.

No I'm not bluffing, Sin é. You're the one who repulses extended overviews in favour of bogging yourself down in one or two games when the chips were all against the persecuted coach. Talk about the lack of anything that resembles a cohesive gameplan. Even our win against Australia was force of will alone... it wasn't tactically positive, it was Irish blood-up and it worked. There is only a limited amount of times that 'intensity' can drag you over the line against the best sides.

So what you are saying Secretfly is that the coaches are telling the players to miss tackles and not to go into rucks with commitment, drop the ball ect. Look, I am not having swipes at your players as they are not crap, but they are not as good as you like to think they are, with the exception of about three or four players the rest of Ireland's first squad are either nearing the end or just mediocre, you just have to except this, I have(Wales), and that is why we keep playing the Southern Hemisphere teams and loosing, it will not last forever as I think that the rabo is a breeding ground for young exceptional talent, it's just at the moment we all need to except where we are and not just keep dumping blame on a few. Especially when that few has achieved more in half a century than any other coaching team has.

Dowlais I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying but you place way too much stock by it.

Whether we win, lose or draw there should be a tangible game plan in place.

Example - Munster went up to Ulster and were beaten a week ago. I can accept that. We had a game plan that suits us and were beaten narrowly.

However we do not have a game plan with the Irish national team. Kidney doesnt tell people to miss tackles and mess up. But if you dont enjoy something you will not do as well.

Kidney is by no means the only issue but he is a big big issue. I can understand that you feel our quality of players is a bigger factor. Thats fine thats just an opinion. However if you think Kidney is doing well as coach then you are crackers!!!

profitius wrote:

red_stag wrote:Profitius,

To be fair I thought three of our best players so far have been Downey, Laulala and Sean Dougall.

We didn't have them last year.

My point is we had the players to play much better. Dougal and Lualala were missing at the weekend and Downey had a quiet game yet Munster played better in patches than they did for years under McGahan.

Munster had Niall Ronan and Keith Earls fully fit last weekend instead of Dougall & Laulala. Earls is benefitting from having a big 12 beside him (and he also looks to have bulked up a bit more). McGahan lost Denis Leamy, Niall Ronan & James Coughlan (having earlier lost Flannery & David Wallace) and for some important games POC, Murray, Varley & ROG were either injured or not match fit.

Of course Tommy O'Donnell, DOC2 and a few others are a year older/more experienced/a bit more bulked up.

The difference last weekend was that Dougall was rested and Ronan picked up where he left off last year.

red_stag wrote:Dowlais I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying but you place way too much stock by it.

Whether we win, lose or draw there should be a tangible game plan in place.

Example - Munster went up to Ulster and were beaten a week ago. I can accept that. We had a game plan that suits us and were beaten narrowly.

However we do not have a game plan with the Irish national team. Kidney doesnt tell people to miss tackles and mess up. But if you dont enjoy something you will not do as well.

Kidney is by no means the only issue but he is a big big issue. I can understand that you feel our quality of players is a bigger factor. Thats fine thats just an opinion. However if you think Kidney is doing well as coach then you are crackers!!!

I do not think he is doing well, I think he is unlucky, of all the top teams in the six nations there is nothing between them, the only difference is on the day, a bounce of a ball a penalty kick, Wales has about four or five world class players in their side, but during the last six nations the whole team pulled together and won a slam, then we went to Australia and had our arses shown to us, and this is what I am getting at, you all think that a change of coach will make everything rosy again, it won't, why, because you do not have the players to step up and fight when the going gets tough, and that's ok against the Wales, England, Scotland, France and Italy of this world but when it comes to the big three we are all found wanting, we all have to except this for now, but what we can look forward to is a bright future as I only now think that we have all embraced professionalism properly and things can only get better. That's look at facts, and the fact is Declan Kidney has achieved more than any other coach in over fifty years for Ireland and you lot want him out, I say give the man the tools and he will finish the job.(Winston Churchill said that first).

red_stag wrote:Dowlais I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying but you place way too much stock by it.

Whether we win, lose or draw there should be a tangible game plan in place.

Example - Munster went up to Ulster and were beaten a week ago. I can accept that. We had a game plan that suits us and were beaten narrowly.

However we do not have a game plan with the Irish national team. Kidney doesnt tell people to miss tackles and mess up. But if you dont enjoy something you will not do as well.

Kidney is by no means the only issue but he is a big big issue. I can understand that you feel our quality of players is a bigger factor. Thats fine thats just an opinion. However if you think Kidney is doing well as coach then you are crackers!!!

The gameplan will fall to pieces if your scrum is not going well because high risk rugby isn't on in that situation. I really doubt that any international team would play like Munster have been playing in the last few weeks- it would be suicidal because the opposition are going to be better than what the Dragons were last weekend - you'll be punished for any mistakes.

Declan kidney has not achieved more than any other Irish coach. If enough people try to open a jar eventually someone will open it. Kidney was in the right place at the right time. His defensive 1d style complemented what was already in place. However as his tenure has progressed all the good work of former coaches has been undone revealing Kidney to be pretty much out of his depth.

Ireland used to be well organised, good to watch fairly savvy team. They have been all over the place for a whole now that's kidneys fault. Out!