Put the shoe on the other foot

Imagine a hypothetical SH Lions vs a NH Lions. The SH Lions include Argentina, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, NZ, Australia and SA. There is no compulsion to pick a player from each country. Only the best possible squad. The NH Lions include the British and Irish teams already in the existing one but also add in France and Italy.

I think we can all sympathise with feelings of being let down by selection and the defensiveness of some arguing in favour of one side, regardless of who that might be, making up the majority of the squad. But until you're in that position, maybe you don't realise how difficult that selection can be and how much debate can stem from it.

So by all means rip my team to shreds but this is the team I'd like to see. (Only worry about the test squad but by all means feel free to mention some who are definitely on standby and in the midweek squad.) My only criteria for the teams is that the players you pick must be eligible for the countries they represent so you can't pick Fourie or SBW or Kaino for example. Base it on form but that could be club or test form. Argue your case. Players like McCaw on sabattical are also unavailable. They must be playing some form of rugby and if they're injured they're out as well.

So here's my team.

1. Taumalolo (Tonga) 2. Du Plessis 3. Owen Franks
4. Etzebeth (SA) 5. Horwill (Aus)
6. Lobbe (Argentina) 7. Broussow (SA) 8. Read (NZ)
9. Pisi (Samoa) 10. Carter (NZ)
12. JOC (Aus) 13. Smith (NZ)
11. Savea (NZ) 14. Habana (Sa) 15. Folau (Australia)

Reserves, The Beast, Mealamu, Alexander, Whitelock, Higginbotham, Genia, Cruden, AAC.

Coaches Graham Henry, Jake White, Ewen Mckenzie

For the NH:

1. Healy (Ire) 2. Best (Ire) 3. Jones (Wal)
4. POC (Ire) 5. Gray (Sco)
6. Dusatoir (Fra) 7. Tipuric (Wal) 8. Picamoles (Fr)
9. Parra (Fr) 10. Sexton (Ire)
12. Fofana (Fr) 13. Tuilagi (Eng)
11. Cuthbert (Wal) 14. Bowe (Ire) 15. Halpenny (Wal)

Reserves Domingo, Mas, Servat, AWJ, Parisse, Phillips, Biggar, Mermoz.

Coaches Mallett, Gatland, Schmidt.

I could make up easily 2 or 3 other teams with all that at my disposal. Not an easy task to accommodate players and some countries will feel rightly miffed at my selections. But just goes to show how difficult it can be. Try it yourself and then spare a thought for Gatland and co trying to balance an all-round side capable of different styles but also powerful and solid in the set piece and dynamic and speedy on attack. Good luck to you all.

Couple of quibbles:

1) you need two props on the bench
2) Nicolas Mas is a tight head. Technically Domingo is probably the best LH in the NH - and with his diminutive stature could go really well with tom Youngs - just need a midget TH

Fair enough mate but don't blame me. Blame Mallett. He's the head coach!

I sent a tweet to him though with your suggestion and he amended the list.

Truth be told I always mix up the props. They should be called Meat Head 1 and Meathead 2. Maybe that way I'd remember. Left for Loosehead and Tighthead for The Other Side should be easy to remember but we backs have other things like hair gel to worry us!

I like this thread Kia. But I am only going to use the Tri Nation teams as I don't know the other players well enough.

This is a shot in the dark, I have worked hard today so don't feel in the mood to work, so I am going purely from what pops in my mind right this second.

I am selecting only players that will be available to play this weekend, those on hiatus and injury lists won't feature.

So it is the form players of the super XV


1. Coenie Oosthuizen
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Owen Franks
4. Sam Whitelock
5. James Horwill
6. Lappies Labuschagne
7. Liam Gill
8. Philip v d Walt
9. Will Genia
10. Dan Carter
11. Hosea Gear
12. Richard Kahui
13. nanai-Williams
14. Folau
15 Anscombe

I was going to post a similar thread, but more of a question the the SH posters such as Biltong and Kia: how do you view the Lions in terms of the effect on each of the 4 nations.

I'll explain: I've always been a huge Lions fan since the 1997 tour, and have watched the videos of previous ones too. I love the concept and for me part of the joy is the difficulty in what they are trying to do - i.e. go to the best teams in the world (conveniently the 3 SH nations seem to always be in the top 3, which is great for the Lions concept!) with a scratch side and try to beat them on their own patch with only a few warm up games. I think that's awesome.

However, only very recently have I started to think about the negative effects on my team (Wales), and of course the other 3 nations involved. I wonder if we'd kick on more than we have done in the past if we didn't have this tour slap bang in the middle of the 4 year world cup cycle. We've just won the 6N, but the team we send on summer tour will be new as it will be shorn of 15 players. That's great for player development, but we get to the next 6N and will be like a scratch side again. History shows that France do well in the 6N after a Lions tour and it's probably obvious why.

Anyway, I was wondering whether you'd like something like this for SA or NZ or Aus, or if you'd be against it as it would be interrupting your 4 year world cup cycle. Is it a help or a hindrance to the individual international nations? Would it have a negative impact on the SH teams as it seems to do with us?

I would love it if SA, OZ and NZ make a team. I think it will be incredible rugby from them.

How do I think the Lions affect the NH nations?

You might shoot me for saying this, but I believe no different than any other tour. Let me explain, if England were to travel to SA for a summer tour and Ireland to NZ (as happened last year.) and compare it to the Lions touring to OZ this year.

It is still three test matches, why would it make a difference?

And why would it be any different when injuries and such are concerned?

The main difference for me Biltong is the lack of continuity in coaching etc. It's like the players joining a new international team for the summer and then going back to their old team for the Autumn Internationals. They'll have to learn new plays, new moves, new defensive structures, etc., etc. Wouldn't this have a negative effect, or at least set them back in their development switching from one to the other?

BB

The difference is that in established teams and tours their is no real competition for places compared to a lions tour.

On a lions tour near all test spots are up for grabs, in established tours its reverse, positions and players are well established.

What that means is that training is intense, players go that extra mile in midweek games and injuries crank up. Usually we see about 6-8 injuries to established players come the end of the tour... when does that happen in a AI tour? Thats not injuries from those left behind, thats 6-8 injuries from those who get on the plane in the first place.

Given that players are near destroyed by the end of tour and they only have 1-2 months off before the start of the new season its a real tough test.

In terms of if this happened in reverse you would see a lot of the players missing half the next SR season.

Look at SA in 09. They were dead beat after a long SR season, then the lions tour, the 3N tour and then say 5 games in the CC... remember the front row of Beast, Bismarck and Smit who destroyed the lions two months later being nailed by the Cheetahs whilst in Sharks colours??? After that the disasterous 2010 season where injuries took their toll and players were knackered.

It was PDV fault for not managing the situation well enough and I recall you and I talking about how he should leave his top 20 players at home for the AI series where they won 1 out of 5 matches. We saw the writing on the wall, PDV didn't (perhaps it was in English???)... anyhow that situation is typical of a lions series aftermath in the NH.

LondonTiger wrote:Couple of quibbles:

1) you need two props on the bench
2) Nicolas Mas is a tight head. Technically Domingo is probably the best LH in the NH - and with his diminutive stature could go really well with tom Youngs - just need a midget TH

Mas is quite short as well (5′ 10″)
that's one of the reason he's doing well at scrum time (short legs mean better balance I guess). the other THs in NWE like AJ, Cole or Castro are all higher than 6'.

whocares wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Couple of quibbles:

1) you need two props on the bench
2) Nicolas Mas is a tight head. Technically Domingo is probably the best LH in the NH - and with his diminutive stature could go really well with tom Youngs - just need a midget TH

Mas is quite short as well (5′ 10″)
that's one of the reason he's doing well at scrum time (short legs mean better balance I guess). the other THs in NWE like AJ, Cole or Castro are all higher than 6'.

makes sense.... Tom Smith and Paul Wallace were much smaller in height and weight vs. Du Randt and Garvey in 97 but they managed to get under their skin and make life difficult for them.

Then again guys like Hayman and Sheridan (2 of the most notable props in recent history) are both 193cm+.

I don't know about that fa. Look at Australia and the extra zip they have this year in order to make the series and they are doing well on the injury front. Injuries are I agree able to be attributed to poor player management but every year there are June tests and players still want to be picked for that. It is true that players like Beale and dagg have been accused of drifting because they feel their positions are secured. But if you're going to play 3 tests anyway I don't think the difference is so significant and this year the British and Irish teams will get a chance to look at players 2 years out from the RWC. I'd like to be in that position.

As for your question griff I'd love to see it as well. My question to you would be who they'd play. Every 4 years in the uk and Irish teams and maybe France would take too long to rotate but a tour instead of the autumn tests and taking development squads elsewhere like the pacific USA Asia or Japan would be an attractive prospect.

By the way biltong your team is anti nz and your players are too fat and slow and you have t picked enough form Fijian players.

fair point FA. I remember Hayman struggled in his first year or two in Toulon as he had to adapt to the shorter front rows we have over here (he wasnt very fit as well).

As for the NH team bb my lack of knowledge of the front row or the team in general didn't stop me! Still could tinker that team a lot notably in the pack but it'd be pretty formidable.

By the way kabuki has busted his shoulder again so he's out. Some players are cursed.

I think part of the reason why AUS are flying this year is that so many of their players were out last season that they were more prepared for the lions year.

You're right about the added incentive to the AUS players in the current season..... my example was about those players selected to tour not the season beforehand. Players were more intense this year in the 6N which perhaps made the matches a little dull.

On tour it will be full guns blazing whilst in lets say last years summer tours guys like Jenkins, Jones, Evans, Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, Phillips, Roberts, Davies, Halfpenny knew they would test from the minute they stepped on the plane. We can't say the same about Lions series... its all out war for places.

It won't help most players will go through say 6 matches during the tour... much more than the usual 3 so injuries will naturally be higher.

That's true but that comes down to management. Take your key players off and not risk them but don't wrap them in cotton wool. Sometimes injuries can just as likely happen if you don't play enough rugby.

Not so sure about the intensity and increasing ugliness (bar the Welsh performance against England) can be attributed to the lions. WTf was France playing at then whereas Italy seemed to do very well in patches? Neither was in the running for the lions. I think the weather and the safe tactics had more to do with it. We saw a similar defensive and ugly rc for much of it last year too.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
So here's my team.

1. Taumalolo (Tonga) 2. Du Plessis 3. Owen Franks
4. Etzebeth (SA) 5. Horwill (Aus)
6. Lobbe (Argentina) 7. Broussow (SA) 8. Read (NZ)
9. Pisi (Samoa) 10. Carter (NZ)
12. JOC (Aus) 13. Smith (NZ)
11. Savea (NZ) 14. Habana (Sa) 15. Folau (Australia)

Reserves, The Beast, Mealamu, Alexander, Whitelock, Higginbotham, Genia, Cruden, AAC.

I would say Fotuali'i is a better Samoan 9 than Pisi?

how is Smith by the way??? that was one hell of a KO over the weekend, becoming a worrying habit no?

You'd probably be right mike but Ill still call you a lunatic and say you don't know what you're talking about!

Very worrying fa. Might see him take a sabbatical which might be a good idea in the end.

whats that his 3rd KO or something??? Has to start thinking about his health beyond rugby... not saying its related but watching Joost get worse has been very difficult. The speed has been frightening.

We just don't know the long term impacts.... rugby yesteryear was much less intense much less physically brutal. Guys were slower, lighter and weaker and impacts were less.
Not saying it was a picnic but we just don't know what pro rugby does to the body yet? American footballers are renowned for their problems for instance.

Did anyone see Jonny Wilkinson get smashed over the weekend? Wow it looked bad, like he was just hit by a bus.

In fact thats the second English OH to be hit by a bus in recent weeks.

GunsGerms wrote:Did anyone see Jonny Wilkinson get smashed over the weekend? Wow it looked bad, like he was just hit by a bus.

In fact thats the second English OH to be hit by a bus in recent weeks.

how dare you describe Danny Cipriani as a OH.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Did anyone see Jonny Wilkinson get smashed over the weekend? Wow it looked bad, like he was just hit by a bus.

In fact thats the second English OH to be hit by a bus in recent weeks.

how dare you describe Danny Cipriani as a OH.

Ha. Poor Danny.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Did anyone see Jonny Wilkinson get smashed over the weekend? Wow it looked bad, like he was just hit by a bus.

In fact thats the second English OH to be hit by a bus in recent weeks.

how dare you describe Danny Cipriani as a OH.

Ha. Poor Danny.

Probably the best tackle he's ever made though??? Replace best with "only" perhaps.

fa0019 wrote:
Probably the best tackle he's ever made though??? Replace best with "only" perhaps.

He has tackled a couple of nice birds in fairness to him.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:
Probably the best tackle he's ever made though??? Replace best with "only" perhaps.

He has tackled a couple of nice birds in fairness to him.

Wasn't one of them actually a fella??? or is that an urban myth?

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Did anyone see Jonny Wilkinson get smashed over the weekend? Wow it looked bad, like he was just hit by a bus.

In fact thats the second English OH to be hit by a bus in recent weeks.

how dare you describe Danny Cipriani as a OH.

Ha. Poor Danny.

Probably the best tackle he's ever made though??? Replace best with "only" perhaps.

Harsh. Actually not true either - when Cips played fullback for Wasps early in his career he did make a few tackles including a memorable try saver on Alessio Tuilagi at full speed. That's why it is so annoying that he hasn't worked harder on the defensive side of his game - he's big enough and CAN tackle, but simply doesn't have the right mindset to be a good defender.

fa0019 wrote:
Wasn't one of them actually a fella??? or is that an urban myth?

Not sure I heard about that one.

Sounds like he got caught up in a big tackle too.

FA I heard something along those lines...post op. Dont know if theres any truth in it though. But he is a party boy, so maybe after a few too many...beer goggles on...who knows?

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:FA I heard something along those lines...post op. Dont know if theres any truth in it though. But he is a party boy, so maybe after a few too many...beer goggles on...who knows?

Yeah probably katie price to start with

Just so Im clear are you saying you would or wouldnt?