Celtic/Italian Ranfurly Shield

I've thought for a while that a Celtic/Italian quivalent to the Ranfurly Shield, it would add a nice extra to the League.

If we had it this year, Ospreys would have started off with it (as Champions), before losing in to Ulster in Round two (only home games are defensives).

Ulster would have held it untill round 14 when Ospreys would have won it back and held on to it.

It would certainly have added a little more to the build up for the Ulster V Ospreys game as they wanted to win it back, and the other games at home for the holder, when the other teams visited and would have wanted to get hold of the Cup/Shield/Plate?

Thing is though, the Ranfurly shield has history, and it is that history that pre-exists compared to other NZ competitions, which adds to the occasion.

It is possible to create a new trophy as an add-on to the main competition that eventually becomes important - but who knows how long that woul dtake.

Does Ireland especially care that they are not the holders of the Millenium Trophy? Probably not - just care that they lost a match.

It would take a bit of time yes, but the sooner you start it, the sooner it becomes meaningful. They started one in the scottish premiership the other year and its gaining significance slowly but surely. The clubs are always talking about added incentive when theyre playing in a challenge for it.

It would also give the likes of Connacht, Treviso something to go for, teams that are not going to win the league, or make play offs, when they come up against the Celtic/Italian Ranfurly Shield holders, I think they will give it everything, to try and take it home to thier supporters, as they won't be able to get any other cups for them.

I'm personally not gone on consolation prizes. There's the carrot up there at the top called the season title. It's big enough for everyone to be throwing their all at it.... but like any league, judging pace through the season is necessary. The wise coaches will still not be distracted by any shield stuff, they'll keep their eyes set on the title, and choose which games to push hard in and which to get through with younger players (needed experience) or players filling in for injuries etc .

A long season is strategy above all other things. Sometimes a consolation prize is just needlessly distracting...and can drag you away from concentrating on the important prize.

Perhaps there is an argument for teams like Connacht...but then, that too suggests Connacht and Treviso might settle into a seasonal goal of stealing Ranfurly shields. That might play well with fans for a while, but it's a false prize in that they are in a competition already with a bigger prize. Treviso is climbing the Pro12 ladder. Glasgow were 11th two seasons ago. Treviso are 7th this season. Keeping their sights on that one target is surely incentive enough to play hard when need be.... as points (bonus ones) win prizes. .

Maybe instead of something like this to aim for we would be better off having a system like in 7s. The top four teams go into the play-off for the Championship (Cup), then those placed 5th to 8th go into a Plate play-off and maybe the 9th - 12th go into a Bowl play-off. That way ever team will be pushing for some form of trophy, and be pushing right to the buzzer as they may not get to the main play-off but they can get the Plate home semi-final etc.

That would give fans of teams like Connacht, Dragons, and Treviso some real chance of seeing silverware, without distracting the big boys from the task at hand.

Not a bad idea at all SS. I'm sure the likes of Connacht and Treviso could sell out for a plate final.

I agree with Scarletspiderman again,

but instead of a bowl for 9th - 12th I'd have a wooden spoon.

the reverse is the two play off losers go into a final, and the loser of the final is presented with a woodenspoon.

Should encourage them to do better next year.

Can't see fans turning up for the chance to see thier team maybe given the woodenspoon, but maybe they will attend the final to cheer as much as possible to avoid it?

I went to a Log match in Christchurch in 2003.

Unfortunately that day my hero Andrew Mehrtens played like an absolute tw@t and Canterbury ending up throwing away a massive lead to Wellington who came back to draw.

It's just occurred to me that this comment doesn't really take this thread any further forward. I'd already posted this comment before I could stop myself, though.

A recent invention, the RWC, is a great consolation prize for not being ranked number 1 in the world.

A recent invention, being ranked number 1 in the world, is not much of a consolation prize for choklng in a RWC.

Just saying like.

i have to disagree with SecretFly, not every teams aim is to win the league, about 6 teams will have this aim, the other 6 are aiming to improve on last seasons position.

You can't tell me that Dragons or Zebre are aiming for the title next year, thier target are to finish higher in the league than last year. Over the course of the season if they got a chance to win the Shield (they may not get to challange each year) and managed to win it, it would mean a lot to thier fans, the proity is the League, but having a Challange cup running along will not distract teams from the main aim.


While I like the plate idea ScarletSpiderman, it would require extra games being organised, and would fans turn up to see who is best of the 2nd third of the table?

It would give teams like Connacht something to aim for though, so may have its merits

Kingshu wrote:i have to disagree with SecretFly, not every teams aim is to win the league, about 6 teams will have this aim, the other 6 are aiming to improve on last seasons position.

You can't tell me that Dragons or Zebre are aiming for the title next year, thier target are to finish higher in the league than last year. Over the course of the season if they got a chance to win the Shield (they may not get to challange each year) and managed to win it, it would mean a lot to thier fans, the proity is the League, but having a Challange cup running along will not distract teams from the main aim.


While I like the plate idea ScarletSpiderman, it would require extra games being organised, and would fans turn up to see who is best of the 2nd third of the table?

It would give teams like Connacht something to aim for though, so may have its merits

Well, in the real world it doesn't matter what you aim for if you're simply not good enough - yet. So of course you're right, Kingshu, in saying that realistically Zebre couldn't be hunting down a Pro12 title next year.

BUT............. (in my humble opinion only) they don't need an extra incentive to hunt down something. The league is full of professional players who have ambitions of their own to either make a name for themselves, to increase their earning potential, to put their hands up for possible International call-ups.

To say in a League a side or sides needs a bunch of extra incentives to go out and win something, that isn't the main event, just isn't an idea I've ever warmed to. It categorises sides within one league...it slots them into sides that will and sides that won't. I personally don't like that formal subdivision of ability within the same league. Neither do I like APs relegation for the very same reason. Some sides should be happy to eternally fight to stay away from relegation as the big boys with the big money snigger away at the top. I just fundamentally don't like formally separating 'worth' within a single competition.

There are 12 sides in the Pro12 and those 12 sides want to win every game they play. That's the motivation. You win enough of them, even towards the end of a season, and you go up the table. Treviso have shown that they are walking up the table...steadily but convincingly. Their mind might not have been on a title two or three seasons ago, but they certainly have pretensions of getting closer to a title in the coming seasons. And that is their motivation - same motivation as they had in the beginning. The target is there. With some it's an immediate target, with others they know it's a long term project.

Some people like the contant sub-division of leagues into plates and what not - and that's fine (I realise my views are more deeply philosophical than perfect rugby sense! ), it's just that I simply don't like the idea. I like to see sides with one goal - the top.

Reading the title of this thread (Celtic/Italian) reminded me of something I read before when reading about early Europe.

Then this snippet from Treviso history
the ancient city of Tarvisium derived its name from a settlement of the Celtic tribe of the Taurusci. Others have attributed the name instead to the Indo European root tarvos, meaning "bull". Tarvisium, then a city of the Veneti,

"Tarwos" is the Gaulish word for "bull". Similar words exist in modern Celtic languages: Irish "Tarbh", Welsh "Tarw" and Breton "Tarv".

profitius wrote:Reading the title of this thread (Celtic/Italian) reminded me of something I read before when reading about early Europe.

Then this snippet from Treviso history
the ancient city of Tarvisium derived its name from a settlement of the Celtic tribe of the Taurusci. Others have attributed the name instead to the Indo European root tarvos, meaning "bull". Tarvisium, then a city of the Veneti,

"Tarwos" is the Gaulish word for "bull". Similar words exist in modern Celtic languages: Irish "Tarbh", Welsh "Tarw" and Breton "Tarv".

I am no linguist or linguistics expert, but I love reading stuff like this that bascially, in academic language concludes with, ".....but we're farked if we know for certain where the word came from."

Also, the similarities and cross over between languages and their roots in different geographical locations and then how things changed when related languages became sundered is interesting too. I remember reading some years back when I was in school, that the expert types don't have any firm ideas as to where the Basque language has its origins (and by extention the people to some degree too) Is this still the case?

Also, wow, we're pretty off topic now!

debaters1 wrote:Also, the similarities and cross over between languages and their roots in different geographical locations and then how things changed when related languages became sundered is interesting too. I remember reading some years back when I was in school, that the expert types don't have any firm ideas as to where the Basque language has its origins (and by extention the people to some degree too) Is this still the case?

I believe I read/heard somewhere that Welsh is linguistically similar to Punjab. I really can't work out how that would happen, but htat was what the expert bloke wrote/said.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

debaters1 wrote:Also, the similarities and cross over between languages and their roots in different geographical locations and then how things changed when related languages became sundered is interesting too. I remember reading some years back when I was in school, that the expert types don't have any firm ideas as to where the Basque language has its origins (and by extention the people to some degree too) Is this still the case?

I believe I read/heard somewhere that Welsh is linguistically similar to Punjab. I really can't work out how that would happen, but htat was what the expert bloke wrote/said.

Think thats when you try to do a Welsh accent sometimes its turns out like an indian one? Also sometimes when doing a Cork accent it turns Welsh?

Kingshu wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

debaters1 wrote:Also, the similarities and cross over between languages and their roots in different geographical locations and then how things changed when related languages became sundered is interesting too. I remember reading some years back when I was in school, that the expert types don't have any firm ideas as to where the Basque language has its origins (and by extention the people to some degree too) Is this still the case?

I believe I read/heard somewhere that Welsh is linguistically similar to Punjab. I really can't work out how that would happen, but htat was what the expert bloke wrote/said.

Think thats when you try to do a Welsh accent sometimes its turns out like an indian one? Also sometimes when doing a Cork accent it turns Welsh?

Corks don't talk, so how can they have an accent?

Really Scarlet?

i thoght it was fairly certain that Welsh was a Celtic language. While there are differences between all the Celtic languages, the similarties are clear enough from irish, Welsh, Scots gaelic, Bretagne, Cornish and Manx.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

debaters1 wrote:Also, the similarities and cross over between languages and their roots in different geographical locations and then how things changed when related languages became sundered is interesting too. I remember reading some years back when I was in school, that the expert types don't have any firm ideas as to where the Basque language has its origins (and by extention the people to some degree too) Is this still the case?

I believe I read/heard somewhere that Welsh is linguistically similar to Punjab. I really can't work out how that would happen, but htat was what the expert bloke wrote/said.

"About 30% of the Y-chromosome pool of North India is derived from an area that is common with Eastern Europe, and is presumably diagnostic of the Aryans."

Its thought by some that Europeans conquered an area of northern India in ancient times and eventually mixed in with the local population. Its like the Dutch going to South Africa. They have a similar language to Dutch but they become different over time.

debaters1 wrote:Really Scarlet?

i thoght it was fairly certain that Welsh was a Celtic language. While there are differences between all the Celtic languages, the similarties are clear enough from irish, Welsh, Scots gaelic, Bretagne, Cornish and Manx.

I found this list fascinating.

Germanic is closer to Balto-Slavic than to Italo-Celtic. :

English - Silver - Gold
German - Silber - Gold
Danish - Sølv - Guld
Gothic - Silubr - Gulth
Lithuanian - Sidabras - (Auksas)
Latvian - Sudabra - Zelta
Bulgarian - Srebro - Zlato
Czech - Stribrna - Zlato
Russian - Serebra - Zolota
Thracian - (unattested) - Saldas

Latin - Argentum - Aurum
Irish - Airgead - Or
Welsh - Arian - Aur
Gaulish - Argenton - (*Auron - reconstructed)
Celtiberian - Arkanta - (unattested)
Albanian - Argjend - Ar

debaters1 wrote:Really Scarlet?

i thoght it was fairly certain that Welsh was a Celtic language. While there are differences between all the Celtic languages, the similarties are clear enough from irish, Welsh, Scots gaelic, Bretagne, Cornish and Manx.

I know it sounds crazy but i saw/heard it on tv/radio/paper, really not sure where and a cabi driver from asian somewhere, canot remember where exactly i was drunk, said it to me about a month later. Therefore if a cab driver said it then 150% true lol