Rome Masters 1000 match thread

[lydian]

First topic message reminder :

So off we go again and Madrid isn't even done yet!

The home of gladiatorial sport sees the leading claycourters lock battle once again to the wonderful tree-lined backdrop. Rome Masters has been going since 1930 and seen many illustrious winners down the years including, some may not know, the current coach of Stanislas Wawrinka - Magnus Norman back in 2000 who beat none other than Gustavo Kuerten.



Can Nadal win his 7th title? Can Novak win his 3rd? Can Andy break his clay final duck? Can Roger get to another final...he's never won in Rome although held MPs in 2006.

It seems Rome always gives us great matches and interesting player arguments too!

Here's the interactive draw:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Share/Event-Draws.aspx?EventId=416&Year=2013

[Mad for Chelsea]

Granollers misses two straightforward (by his standards) volleys and Murray nicks the set.

PULLS OUT! sure "Hip twinge at most" eh lydian?

[CaledonianCraig]

Surprising that. Andy seals the second set then retires with the injury. Very odd indeed.

[NickisBHAFC]

Murray not playing very well. Can actually see him losing this match.

[Mad for Chelsea]

now I'm really really worried, Murray hasn't pulled out of a match since his really bad wrist injury (2007?) I think, so it's obvious something must be very badly wrong.

:bites nails very nervously:

[CaledonianCraig]

Very worrying this. Andy battled through to win the second set tie-break and promptly retired with the hip injury. That is a big worry as hip injuries are not easy to shift and for Murray to retire you know it has to be pretty serious.

[CAS]

If he gets himself fit for the French its not the end of the world, in the Masters he has to play much better players from the start. At least at the French he will play much lesser player for a good few rounds and might actually do him some good, take a rest Andy, its imperative you are at least fit for SW19

[lydian]

Well that is utterly bizarre. Murray was sprinting all over the place at the end of the 2nd set - that cannot be denied. Perhaps the effort of winning the 2nd set TB finally tipped him over. Fair enough. But it was a bizarre 20-25 minutes of play.

[Cogen]

I am still baffled as to why he perseveres with Clay.

Because he has to? Sure, he could skip Monte Carlo, but Madrid and Rome are mandatory tournaments, and if you're ranked high enough for default entry then you have to play... unless you're injured. I suppose he could have skipped them citing injury, as he clearly was not 100%, but I guess he's an honest guy and he felt fit enough to play coming into the tournament.

Of course, he's approaching one of the 3 milestones which will allow him to skip one Masters event each year; 600 matches played. Still quite a long way to the other milestones though! (31 years old, 12 years on tour)

[NickisBHAFC]

Christ, this is worrying. Really hope he can recover for the French Open!

[lydian]

Its probably muscular rather than joint/ligament related. At the end of the day he's a big guy who throws himself all over the court putting a lot of strain on muscles and joints. As I've always said guys that big aren't generally designed to keep on doing that. The problem is that clay is alien to his movement and the sudden turns required seem to cause him real issues....he's simply not a smooth mover like the other top 3 and somewhere down the track that and his size are going to cost him injury-wise.

[CaledonianCraig]

Sky giving him pelters for playing when he wasn't fit. I have to say though that such is Murray's shortfalls on clay he needs matches and wins and confidence on that surface prior to the French Open. I would suggest that is why he took part - more out of having to for those reasons.

[kingraf]

Is it muscular or bone/joint related? The latter is potentially very serious, the former he should be back to full form relatively quickly.

[Guest]

b0llocks!!! Andy you could've tanked it and helped out your old pal LK!

[lydian]

If it was joint/ligament related I don't think he'd be out there in the first place. It'll be a flexor strain rather than something like a labrum tear.

[lydian]

Wonder how much longa Tsonga (see what I did there...) will work with Rasheed? Doesn't seem to be bearing much fruit.

BTW - Murray is 26 today, old man now, not his best birthday present.

[kingraf]

I suspect the answer will be something along the lines of "As long I am enjoying myself and his company"

[invisiblecoolers]

Did Murray retire from the match after winning the 2nd set tie breaker? coz in ATP website it shows 6-3 6-7 win for Gran

[CaledonianCraig]

Did Murray retire from the match after winning the 2nd set tie breaker? coz in ATP website it shows 6-3 6-7 win for Gran

Yes that is correct.

[Guest]

Thats a shame.
Though winning the second set isnt indicative of him being alright. He should have lost the set, 4-1 down then 4-5 down then 4-5 down in the tb, just dug in hard.

He's not one to typically pull out of a match midway through, (very few are in fairness), the real question I suppose is would he do more damage by continuing, even if hes just tanks?
He must have thought he would after the 2nd set soo he pulled out, it is a pre GS tourny as well.

ps sorry ive been away for ages, my thesis is being a pain.

[invisiblecoolers]

Thats a shame.
Though winning the second set isnt indicative of him being alright. He should have lost the set, 4-1 down then 4-5 down then 4-5 down in the tb, just dug in hard.

He's not one to typically pull out of a match midway through, (very few are in fairness), the real question I suppose is would he do more damage by continuing, even if hes just tanks?
He must have thought he would after the 2nd set soo he pulled out, it is a pre GS tourny as well.

ps sorry ive been away for ages, my thesis is being a pain.

Ooops, may be he dont want critics of cry baby or sore loser and hence battled the 2nd set and then gave up.

[Guest]

Maybe he just thought he could do it in the 2 nd set and it hurt too much after the adrennaline wore off a bit?

[carrieg4]

Murray certainly does not retire easily so he must be really struggling

This is only his second mid match retirement, six years to the day after his first.

[The Special Juan]

Ah Andy, come on. I'm not just saying this because he's injured but he has to look at the clay season and think about how he wants to tackle it. I'd really like him to skip the whole clay court swing but of course he won't do that. It seems he picks up some sort of injury on it every year which affect him for a while. I hope he misses the FO in a bid to get 100% fit for Wimbleon.

[lydian]

Exactly TSJ and this was my point above.
He's like Bambi on ice when he steps on a clay court - clay needs light/adept feet for quick turns, that's not Murray.
The awkward movements mean he's more prone to injure himself which he seems to do every year.
Murray and clay are like fish and bicycle.

[laverfan]

Going by the earlier matches today, should I back Verdasco to beat Ferrer?

[lags72]

TSJ : your wish may well be fulfilled.

Andy has said in his presser that this is a recurrence of the lower back (left side) problem that has plagued him in the past.

He added that - as things stand - he will be very surprised if he is fit to play RG.

Bad news.

[The Special Juan]

Thanks lags, I've just read it this second. It'll do him good in the long run I hope. What I'm wondering is if it's the same injury as last year that's flared up again. He's barely stopped touching his side since MC began.

I think you're absolutely right lydian. Murray really struggles to move on clay and because his game is pretty much based on movement, it's no wonder he picks up little (and big) injuries every year. For someone who grew up playing on it, I don't understand how he can be that bad on it!!

[CaledonianCraig]

Sad news for some of us. Get well soon Andy.

[lydian]

Yes sad news actually. If Murray was out of RG that would make the seedings interesting of course...not that I would wish Nadal to get top 4 seeding this way.

There may be parallel with Mecir here as he's often compared gamewise to him....well before he went down a much more physical route. Mecir retired from a bad back at 26 years old. So Murray probably does need to heed the injury and allow it to heal fully if he's to avoid the issues other big guys in the past who relied on movement had.

He also needs to understand what's causing the bad back and make adjustments to stop it becoming chronic, if it isn't already.

[lydian]

I note that Murray also added:

"I want to make sure it goes away. It's been a problem since the end of 2011 but it got bad during last year's clay season."

So its a long-standing problem that gets flared up during the clay season, it must be due to his movement. Sounds like he'd be mad to enter RG unless its merely a trapped nerve or spasm.

[carrieg4]

Sounds like he is doing the sensible thing. Hopefully he will come back strong for the grass season.

[bogbrush]

It's turn RG into another 'who gets Nadal' lottery for the top two seeds.

[banbrotam]

He might miss Wimbledon as well

It sounds like rest will be the main answer - well if he's had it since the latter part of 2011 then that's not worked before, i.e. during the close seasons

Hence it might be he needs, literally, 6 weeks off

He just needs to come back when he's fully fit

[JuliusHMarx]

Murray won the US Open with an injury

[Danny_1982]

Couldn't give a rats ass if Murray misses RG. He was a quarter finalist at best if we're honest.

But I really fancied him for Wimbledon this year and now I'm starting to question that. This guy has not pulled out of a match in 6 years so it must be at least pretty serious.

Hopefully it settles down with a weeks rest.

[CaledonianCraig]

I definitely think he will give Wimbledon a go but can certainly see him sitting out the French Open.

Now I am no injury expert but it would seem it is an intermittent injury which has been on-going. As lydian alluded to it seems too coincedental to me that the injury has flared up both times on clay. It is perhaps caused by certain moves ie sliding on clay or something unique to clay that aggravates it. According to the BBC site he has intermittently been taking painkilling injections such as prior to Wimbledon last year. It tells me that it is an injury that needs care on dealing with it and needs rest but I fear if it has been around since late 2011 it may be something he may have to learn to live with.

[Danny_1982]

Oh I'm certain he'll give wimbledon a go Craig, no matter what. But even if its much better we know that Murray takes longer than a lot of players to get back up to a high level.

Whenever he has taken a period of even a few weeks with no matches it takes him a tournament or two to be back to his best. And that's with training flat out, which he may not be able to do.

We'll see over the next 5 or 6 days I guess how serious it is. But if he takes a few weeks off it impacts his Wimbledon chances.

[CaledonianCraig]

Oh I'm certain he'll give wimbledon a go Craig, no matter what. But even if its much better we know that Murray takes longer than a lot of players to get back up to a high level.

Whenever he has taken a period of even a few weeks with no matches it takes him a tournament or two to be back to his best. And that's with training flat out, which he may not be able to do.

We'll see over the next 5 or 6 days I guess how serious it is. But if he takes a few weeks off it impacts his Wimbledon chances.

I see where you are coming from Danny.

However, he had this problem at the same time of the year last year, and bombed out at the first stage at Queen's and then ended up in the Wimbledon Final. Now if Andy gives RG a miss as he should and improves his Queen's showing then he must be considered one of the main contenders for Wimbledon. A lot of ifs I know but I cannot see this back problem ever really clearing up (if it has already been with him for about 18 months).

[Born Slippy]

Quite amusing that Andy clearly thought it was so shameful losing to Granollers that he fought so hard to get level before retiring. I doubt he will play RG. He will play Wimbledon - probably with a similar injection to last year.

[banbrotam]

Oh I'm certain he'll give wimbledon a go Craig, no matter what. But even if its much better we know that Murray takes longer than a lot of players to get back up to a high level.

Whenever he has taken a period of even a few weeks with no matches it takes him a tournament or two to be back to his best. And that's with training flat out, which he may not be able to do.

We'll see over the next 5 or 6 days I guess how serious it is. But if he takes a few weeks off it impacts his Wimbledon chances.

Excellent points and my worry two. In some ways, he'd be better making a comeback in July and then getting his form back with the more low key American Hard Court series, i.e. Farmers

However, in fairness he came back fairly well with a more serious injury (we think) in 2007

I've a feeling it might be a mental relief. He's on his least favourite surface with a severe niggle, but obviously can't talk about it - so it might prove a blessing in the end

[banbrotam]

It also explains why he started off well against Wawrinka and then looked so lethargic - although I still think Stan would have won

[banbrotam]

Apologies if this has already been posted

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22547219

Interesting what he says about having to generate more power, something I've always thought he's (relatively poor at) he's far better at using the pace of others rather than 'forcing' it

i.e. it's obvious as Lydian aludes to, in order for him to get anywhere near the best, he has to take too much out of his body

Makes me feel a bit more optimistic for Wimbledon - but I bet he misses Queens

It does also show that his game isn't just about fitness - no amount of fitness has helped him to improve on Clay

[CaledonianCraig]

It does make me think he'd be better missing the clay court season if it is this causing his problems. Okay I know he is obliged (by tour rules) to take part but aren't they counter-productive if the surface is aggravating a player's injury? I say this because Andy is alleged to have had this problem since late 2011 but the two times it has struck him hardest have been on clay. Last year at the French Open and this year it started in Madrid and carried through into Rome.

[The Special Juan]

I won't really know what to think until Ginny Wade provides her expert opinion Personally I think it's madness to play the FO if he's not fully fit. I appreciate he's a natural competitor who wants to play and wants to win but at the end of the day, without over-dramatising, playing on with this injury could be a career shortener. As Danny (I think) said, he's a Q-Finalist at best really so if he was defending F or W (or even SF) points it might be worth taking a chance on his back for a bit of damage limitation on his points.

It's times like this with Nadal on the way back from injury, Murray suffering a bad back injury and Djokovic nursing a bad ankle that you really appreciate the unique Roger Federer.

[Haddie-nuff]

Who are you kidding TSJ everyone knows even RF has had problems with his back..so he is as human as the rest of them

[JubbaIsle]

evening peeps.

Is it also a coincidence that his 1st and 2nd serve is so erratic and plunderable when his hip gives him the jip ? (if 2 &1/2 years of intermittent back niggles could be attributable to this problem)

His service action may well work better on hard court in terms of speed, but on grass and clay, its more open to abuse. Mac said he needs to stand more sideways on to get more flex into the serve and disguise it too. Trouble is I think it would slow a bit, but his toss up is suspect and too many 1st serves into the bottom of the net show that something is wrong. Opening up his action may well ease the pressure on the hip, it does get a lot of compression and expansion on the serve.

Maybe its a combination of the surface and wrong action for his build that has prolonged the injury too.

Just dipping my toes in the ocean of speculation, but will he play SW19? Nadal went out for months to get to the position he is now, knees a lot healthier and playing some of his best tennis.

[The Special Juan]

Who are you kidding TSJ everyone knows even RF has had problems with his back..so he is as human as the rest of them

I'm not saying he doesn't but they don't make him pull out of matches or miss majors (although I know he was close to doing so at Wimbledon last year).

[Haddie-nuff]

He was most definitely in trouble at IW and he is certainly taking more time off between tournaments .. so its a sign of the times me thinks. Advancing years may well catch up with him before long .. .

[lydian]

Well the widows crows are certainly pecking at him!

PECK PECK

[The Special Juan]

Indeed, he's getting on a bit. Maybe he'll be another Tommy Haas that when he suffers an injury, he just comes back better.

That haircut is awful, give me the ponytail any day.

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