Analysis of Wlad vs some all time greats

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The Ring magazine last year listed Wlad vs some all time greats, thought I'd share it's analysis for those who hadn't seen it, what's your thoughts agree ?




Joe Louis KO7 Wlad
"In the end, a Louis-Klitschko bout features a fighter with a dubious jaw against perhaps the greatest puncher of all time.


Wlad WPTS Rocky Marciano
"Our guess is that a Maricano-Klitschko bout would be ugle with Klitschko trying to smother Marciano, and Marciano gallantly trying to land something."

Wlad KO5 Floyd Patterson
"You can bet on Patterson hitting the canvas a few times in this one, gamely taking punches until the referee puts an end to it."

Sonny Liston KO5 Wlad
"A fierce, aggressive predator, Liston wouldn't allow Klitschko to simply stand in front of him and parry with his jab. Liston would force Klitschko to fight."

Ali WPTS Wlad
"Ali would come on strong during the last few rounds, alnd some crackling right leads over Wlad's lazy left."

Joe Frazier WPTS Wlad
"Wlad might land some bombs and maybe even drop Frazier a couple of times. But Wlad's habit of waiting for the perfect moment to strike would be disastrous against Frazier."

George Foreman KO10 Wlad
"Foreman could take a punch and would walk through Wlad's jab until he could land some bludgeoning punches."

Larry Holmes WPTS Wlad
Holmes was a rarity in that he was a bully who had the skill and toughness to back up his bullying...Holmes would outwork him."

Mike Tyson WPTS Wlad
The vintage Tyson...would have intimidated Wlad into freezing up."

Lennox Lewis KO10 Wlad
He would est Klitschko in a test match for a few rounds before turning up the aggression and finally answering the question of how many pile-driving right-hands it would take.



Thoughts?

Yes but I think that if he fights all the top heavyweights of all time he is likely to get punched in the face at some point. And based on what I have seen from him, he doesnt handle that well. Its a weakness. Not because his chin makes him collapse out cold, but because it makes him abandon his boxing style which he is dependant on to win and he lacks the neccessary survival skills or ability to slug it which means he becomes vulnerable. Its possible, that like against Peter he could be floored and get back up to win. But its still an area of concern.

I also think while his stamina and pacing has improved, he hasnt been tested at a frenetic pace due to him enjoying near total domination of his oppositions. Again, against other all time greats he is unlikely to enjoy total control and some of those fighters like Foreman, Frazier or Tyson could set a hectic pace at the start which makes the issue of stamina not as straight forward as Wlads routine wins in the last 6 years. He fights at his pace, he might not be able to last at Fraziers pace for example. Im not saying he cant, Im saying its an area I would have question marks over.

manos de piedra wrote:Yes but I think that if he fights all the top heavyweights of all time he is likely to get punched in the face at some point. And based on what I have seen from him, he doesnt handle that well. Its a weakness. Not because his chin makes him collapse out cold, but because it makes him abandon his boxing style which he is dependant on to win and he lacks the neccessary survival skills or ability to slug it which means he becomes vulnerable. Its possible, that like against Peter he could be floored and get back up to win. But its still an area of concern.

I also think while his stamina and pacing has improved, he hasnt been tested at a frenetic pace due to him enjoying near total domination of his oppositions. Again, against other all time greats he is unlikely to enjoy total control and some of those fighters like Foreman, Frazier or Tyson could set a hectic pace at the start which makes the issue of stamina not as straight forward as Wlads routine wins in the last 6 years. He fights at his pace, he might not be able to last at Fraziers pace for example. Im not saying he cant, Im saying its an area I would have question marks over.

Give some examples of wlad looking weak when hit? I agree against peters he looked bad after he got hit but as explained the punches were illegal punches.

Against purity he was fatigued and that is why he got knocked out.

I think wlad has improved his stamina, against wach in round 8 he could have punched himself out but he never.

Even if the punches against Peter were illegal, it doesnt mean he didnt look out of sorts when got hit by them. No composure there. Questionable survival skills.

Sanders obviously caught him flush and basically had him all over the place when he did.

Wach briefly at the end of round 5 caught him with about the only decent punch he landed in the whole fight, and when he did Wlad looked suddenly much less controlled.

He has taken very few heavy shots in his career but when he has he has never looked all that great at handling them because I think he loses his composure and ends up usually doing a poor job of trying to hang onto his opponent. Hes never come through a war where hes had to soak up alot of punishment. So based on what Ive seen, and partly what I havent, I have question marks in that aspect.

Against Wach he was in total control of the pace of the fight so he could elect not to punch himself out. As I said previously, I think his pacing is more measured now. But its a different thing altogether when its your opponent forcing the pace of the fight and you dont have a choice. Again, its not to say he cant handle it but I havent seen him ever in that position so I dont know how he copes when hes forced to fight at a much higher pace and use up more gas early on. Given in the past hes shown vulnerability with stamina its not unreasonable to think if a fighter like Tyson or Frazier set a blistering pace early on that stamina might become an issue again. They are just question marks I have which I dont think have been conclusively answered, as opposed to cast iron assertions.

[quote="manos de piedra"]Even if the punches against Peter were illegal, it doesnt mean he didnt look out of sorts when got hit by them. No composure there. Questionable survival skills.

Sanders obviously caught him flush and basically had him all over the place when he did.

Wach briefly at the end of round 5 caught him with about the only decent punch he landed in the whole fight, and when he did Wlad looked suddenly much less controlled.

He has taken very few heavy shots in his career but when he has he has never looked all that great at handling them because I think he loses his composure and ends up usually doing a poor job of trying to hang onto his opponent. Hes never come through a war where hes had to soak up alot of punishment. So based on what Ive seen, and partly what I havent, I have question marks in that aspect.

Against Wach he was in total control of the pace of the fight so he could elect not to punch himself out. As I said previously, I think his pacing is more measured now. But its a different thing altogether when its your opponent forcing the pace of the fight and you dont have a choice. Again, its not to say he cant handle it but I havent seen him ever in that position so I dont know how he copes when hes forced to fight at a much higher pace and use up more gas early on. Given in the past hes shown vulnerability with stamina its not unreasonable to think if a fighter like Tyson or Frazier set a blistering pace early on that stamina might become an issue again. They are just question marks I have which I dont think have been conclusively answered, as opposed to cast iron assertions. [/quote]




But they are illegal for a reason and that is because they are very dangerous. rabbit punching someone and peters did a massive rabbit punch full power is very dangerous and probably the most dangerous illegal punch in boxing. Of course wlad will look all sorts because he just received a very dangerous illegal punch.

Against wach it was a big punch but klitschko didnt look on danger and the fact the bell rang about 4 seconds after the punch means that we cant read into how klitschko could recover from a big punch because the round was over nearly straight away.

Apart from sanders and the above punches which were down to fatigue or illegal moves tell me a punch that made klitschko look like he was all over the place?

Whether or not you believe Wlad has some sort of physiological weakness of the chin, over the last 8 years he has proven that he is extremely difficult to hit cleanly let alone get knocked out. It's just a bit far fetched to believe Wlad, who's probably the hardest boxer to KO in boxing today, is just going to fall over in these mythical match-ups.

Its all relative though and Manos' point is valid. Wlad has shown a certain amount of vulnerability when hit flush and it's bit far fetched to think that he doesn't get caught flush at some point by fighters of the calibre of Liston, Tyson and Frazier. Recovering and surviving against Peters is one thing, recovering when Tyson is in your face and smells blood is completely different.

It's a bit naive to suggest that because he hasn't been exposed by the relative rubbish he's been fighting for the past few years, there are no questions marks about his ability to cope when tagged.

superflyweight wrote:Its all relative though and Manos' point is valid. Wlad has shown a certain amount of vulnerability when hit flush and it's bit far fetched to think that he doesn't get caught flush at some point by fighters of the calibre of Liston, Tyson and Frazier. Recovering and surviving against Peters is one thing, recovering when Tyson is in your face and smells blood is completely different.

It's a bit naive to suggest that because he hasn't been exposed by the relative rubbish he's been fighting for the past few years, there are no questions marks about his ability to cope when tagged.

First of all David Haye is not complete rubbish, the guy is super fast and powerful.

Also please tell me when he was hit flush and showed vulnerability ( not including illegal punches or vulnerability due to fatigue which he has overcome).

superflyweight wrote:Its all relative though and Manos' point is valid. Wlad has shown a certain amount of vulnerability when hit flush and it's bit far fetched to think that he doesn't get caught flush at some point by fighters of the calibre of Liston, Tyson and Frazier. Recovering and surviving against Peters is one thing, recovering when Tyson is in your face and smells blood is completely different.

It's a bit naive to suggest that because he hasn't been exposed by the relative rubbish he's been fighting for the past few years, there are no questions marks about his ability to cope when tagged.

So what you're saying is that Wlad fought a better quality of opponent when he was a novice compared to now as champ, and that's why he was dropped several times back then yet hasn't even been close to going down now for years. Sorry, but that's complete rubbish.

Why not use his second fight against Peter as an example, would be more relevant yes? Anyway getting tagged by a 20 stone HW monster like Peter, then getting up and winning the fight comfortably isn't really the best example of a weak chin. Didn't Peter knock down Toney with a jab around that time? Guess Toney had a weak chin.

At the end of the day Wlad has never been KO'd, and has not been hurt for nearly 10 years as a HW champion. You can rubbish his opponents, like we can do to any on the list, but Haye was/is probably one of the most explosive HW's of recent times, if he can't get within 2 feet of Wlad's chin to say that some of the small plodders on that list definitely would is a bit naive.

So what you're saying is that Wlad fought a better quality of opponent when he was a novice compared to now as champ, and that's why he was dropped several times back then yet hasn't even been close to going down now for years. Sorry, but that's complete rubbish.

Not what I'm saying at all, so I'll accept your apology.

Wlad has clearly improved his ability to not get hit and not to get drawn into the kind of fights that could potentially expose a flaw that he has suffered from in the past.

However, through no real fault of his own, there's a distinct lack of quality on Wlad's resume over the last few years and as Manos has repeatedly said above, there is a question mark over how he would deal with being caught flush by someone like Frasier, Liston or Tyson.

Haye might, in relative terms, be explosive, but he was hardly proactive looking to detonate anything against Wlad.

P.S. which of Liston, Frasier or Tyson is small and plodding?

It's hard to know what you are trying to say.

Wlad's style has changed completely since Steward trained him, relying on what happened before then is irrelevant. WK no longer walks forward with his chin in the air, it simply doesn't happen anymore. We might as well use the Tyson - Lewis fight, and Liston - Ali, as reasoning as to why WK would beat them both so easily.

Haye, in any terms, is explosive. He was hardly proactive because getting hit in the face by a stiff jab from a 6ft 6 250lb master boxer soon has an effect on your game-plan, as it quickly would against the cruiserweight sized HW's of yesteryear.


Every fighter has a small chance of scoring a KO, but the guys on that list who could realistically challenge WK are Lewis and Holmes, because they had both the ability and physical attributes to maybe score a points decision.

Not sure my argument is all that complicated.

I'm saying that, regardless of the undoubted improvements that Wlad has made, it's highly likely that fighters of the calibre of Liston, Tyson or Frazier (none of whom were cruiserweight) in size work their way through Wlad's defence at some point and connect flush. The question then is how does Wlad deal with it? As he's shown some vulnerability in the past, there has to be a question mark over how he would deal with it when any of those guys get through.

superflyweight wrote:Not sure my argument is all that complicated.

I'm saying that, regardless of the undoubted improvements that Wlad has made, it's highly likely that fighters of the calibre of Liston, Tyson or Frazier (none of whom were cruiserweight) in size work their way through Wlad's defence at some point and connect flush. The question then is how does Wlad deal with it? As he's shown some vulnerability in the past, there has to be a question mark over how he would deal with it when any of those guys get through.

Yes when he was a green fighter with little experience at the top. You have to look at wlad in his prime and in his prime no one gets to his chin, just like no one gets to mayweathers chin.

Jesus wept! It's like beating one's head against a stupidly thick wall.

"Green" or otherwise, you have to suppose that if facing someone as good as Tyson was, Wlad gets hit at some point.

The only one of those guys he would have a chance against is Patterson. I cant believe anyone would pick him to beat Marciano.

winchester wrote:The only one of those guys he would have a chance against is Patterson. I cant believe anyone would pick him to beat Marciano.

For crissakes, dont give them ammunition!

Marciano is probably the easiest for him to beat and thats only because Floyd can move

superflyweight wrote:Not sure my argument is all that complicated.

I'm saying that, regardless of the undoubted improvements that Wlad has made, it's highly likely that fighters of the calibre of Liston, Tyson or Frazier (none of whom were cruiserweight) in size work their way through Wlad's defence at some point and connect flush. The question then is how does Wlad deal with it? As he's shown some vulnerability in the past, there has to be a question mark over how he would deal with it when any of those guys get through.

And again, yes there is a small chance that WK could get knocked out, but it is far more likely that he would knock out these small guys (they would be dwarfed by Wlad) on the way in, and even if he didn't he would easily beat them on points.

Lennox Lewis also showed vulnerability early on in his career, later on though supposedly ATG HWs couldn't make a dent in him, how so?. Truth is at the very top level of boxing KO's are uncommon and shouldn't be relied upon.

But a far from ATG heavyweight such as Rahman, the ultimate definition of a plodder, managed to find Lennox's chin, so the argument isn't quite cut and dried.

Klitschko has beaten everybody he could, but let's not pretend that these were fighters of the calibre with which he is being compared here. He was badly wobbled by the unheralded Wach not so long ago. If that had happened against the Tyson of the late 80s, or, indeed, any of the top-level heavies since the war, not excluding Patterson, he'd never have been given the time to recover.

Rahman, a non all time great boxer, knocked Lewis out in the midst of his his peak.

Wlad is routinely fighting a level of competition far below big punching, skilled, aggressive fighters like Frazier, Liston and Tyson. As such, there will always be question marks over his ability to beat the best heavyweights of all time. He hasnt been tested on that level so I dont see where this conviction comes from. The same goes for almost all heavyweight champions. A champion in one era may not be in another.

Rahman, a non all time great boxer, knocked Lewis out in the midst of his his peak.

Yet much better fighters couldn't get near to even hurting Lewis, how so?


Simple question, realistically, do you think Tyson, Liston or Frazier would be able to out-box Wlad over 12 rounds?

Tyson wouldnt have made it to 12 rounds, Wlad would lean all over him for a few rounds and Tyson would have got frustrated and tried to eat half his face off

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

Rahman, a non all time great boxer, knocked Lewis out in the midst of his his peak.

Yet much better fighters couldn't get near to even hurting Lewis, how so?


Simple question, realistically, do you think Tyson, Liston or Frazier would be able to out-box Wlad over 12 rounds?

Much better fighters like who? Are you implying a washed up Tyson? I can remember Vitali giving him hell, a faded Holyfield getting to him in their second fight, Mercer arguably beating him and Briggs getting to him in addition to his two knock out defeats.

Yes I think Liston, Tyson and Frazier are certainly capable of beating him either by KO or points over 12 because they pose a challenge and problems greater than any Wlad have ever faced. Im not saying they automatically beat him but I struggle to see how you can write them off with little more than a punchers chance.

manos de piedra wrote:

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

Rahman, a non all time great boxer, knocked Lewis out in the midst of his his peak.

Yet much better fighters couldn't get near to even hurting Lewis, how so?


Simple question, realistically, do you think Tyson, Liston or Frazier would be able to out-box Wlad over 12 rounds?

Much better fighters like who? Are you implying a washed up Tyson? I can remember Vitali giving him hell, a faded Holyfield getting to him in their second fight, Mercer arguably beating him and Briggs getting to him in addition to his two knock out defeats.

Yes I think Liston, Tyson and Frazier are certainly capable of beating him either by KO or points over 12 because they pose a challenge and problems greater than any Wlad have ever faced. Im not saying they automatically beat him but I struggle to see how you can write them off with little more than a punchers chance.

Much better fighters like Holyfield, Tyson and VK. Surely you must accept they were MUCH better than Rahman and McCall. So why couldn't they come close to putting Lennox away? after all he has a proven glass chin yes?

Sorry, but to think of those dwarfs out-boxing Wlad over 12 rounds is completely unrealistic. They have a punchers chance
- against pre-Steward WK they have a decent chance, against post-Steward WK they have very little chance.

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

Rahman, a non all time great boxer, knocked Lewis out in the midst of his his peak.

Yet much better fighters couldn't get near to even hurting Lewis, how so?


Simple question, realistically, do you think Tyson, Liston or Frazier would be able to out-box Wlad over 12 rounds?

Much better fighters like who? Are you implying a washed up Tyson? I can remember Vitali giving him hell, a faded Holyfield getting to him in their second fight, Mercer arguably beating him and Briggs getting to him in addition to his two knock out defeats.

Yes I think Liston, Tyson and Frazier are certainly capable of beating him either by KO or points over 12 because they pose a challenge and problems greater than any Wlad have ever faced. Im not saying they automatically beat him but I struggle to see how you can write them off with little more than a punchers chance.

Much better fighters like Holyfield, Tyson and VK. Surely you must accept they were MUCH better than Rahman and McCall. So why couldn't they come close to putting Lennox away? after all he has a proven glass chin yes?

Sorry, but to think of those dwarfs out-boxing Wlad over 12 rounds is completely unrealistic. They have a punchers chance
- against pre-Steward WK they have a decent chance, against post-Steward WK they have very little chance.

Tyson was finished when he lost to Lewis. The level he was operating at wasnt much better than Rahman. Vitali had Lewis hurt and hanging on the second. Holyfield pushed him all the way in the rematch. Lewis was hardly infallible.

What do you mean by "outbox". If you mean could they stand at range and outbox Wlad in a jabbing chess match then no they couldnt. But they are capable of getting at him, making him uncomfortable, setting a pace that Wlad is unaccustomed to boxing at, beating him up on the inside, causing him to tire down the stretch and basically take him out of his comfort zone sufficiently to win enough rounds to win a decision or to knock him out then yes I think they could. Wlad has no inside game. It amounts to trying hold, but he cant fight there. Hes become relatively competent at tying up other guys who cant fight on the inside but theres a world of differance between those guys and quality, dynamic inside fighters like Tyson or Frazier.

Steward improved Wlad as a fighter but he didnt make him invincible. Even if he did beat Frazier or Tyson (unlikely in my view) I find it impossible to imagine he does it in the manner he has beating Pianeta, Wach, Haye etc

Who cares, all I know is don't bet on the white guy.