Scottish Pro team thread

by 123456789 Mon May 27, 2013 5:50 pm

There doesn't seem to be much going on but I thought it might be an idea to set up a thread devoted to transfers, coaching news and general new information to do with the Scottish pro clubs over the summer

by InjuredYetAgain Mon May 27, 2013 8:06 pm

I just read Scott Wight had signed a new one year deal at the Weeg. It must be as short term cover for Weir at the start of the season as anytime I have seen Wight he has not impressed me at all

by Kingshu Tue May 28, 2013 9:11 am

What about the 3rd Scottish Pro team debate?

TBH at club level scottish rugby is going pretty well, Glasgow keep making playoffs, and I expect them to make in roads in Europe this year, (depending on group possible knock outs or get into Almin and Edinburgh hopefully won't have such a bad year now Bradley is gone.

So with the SRU supporting the Pro teams more is it time to try and re-enter a 3rd team?

And would the FIR, IRFU and WRU allow another team into the league even if the SRU wanted it? (maybe depends on how Europe works out?)

Personally I don't know, I think its better for Glasgow to cerment thier place, and to do that they should be looking at getting crowds of at least 8000 on average, they get around the same attendance as Connacht, but have the benefits of being in a big city, and being a better team. Edinburgh need to work thier way up the table, I read that the SRU are looking into the stadium options again, and hopefully something can be found?

Would it make sense to do an American Football thing, and move the Edinburgh team to Aberdeen or somewhere and rebrand them (just an option to discuss)?
Should Edinburgh rebrand and split home games between Edinburgh and Aberdeen/Borders?

by cakeordeath Tue May 28, 2013 9:17 am

Kingshu wrote:What about the 3rd Scottish Pro team debate?

TBH at club level scottish rugby is going pretty well, Glasgow keep making playoffs, and I expect them to make in roads in Europe this year, (depending on group possible knock outs or get into Almin and Edinburgh hopefully won't have such a bad year now Bradley is gone.

So with the SRU supporting the Pro teams more is it time to try and re-enter a 3rd team?

And would the FIR, IRFU and WRU allow another team into the league even if the SRU wanted it? (maybe depends on how Europe works out?)

Personally I don't know, I think its better for Glasgow to cerment thier place, and to do that they should be looking at getting crowds of at least 8000 on average, they get around the same attendance as Connacht, but have the benefits of being in a big city, and being a better team. Edinburgh need to work thier way up the table, I read that the SRU are looking into the stadium options again, and hopefully something can be found?

Would it make sense to do an American Football thing, and move the Edinburgh team to Aberdeen or somewhere and rebrand them (just an option to discuss)?
Should Edinburgh rebrand and split home games between Edinburgh and Aberdeen/Borders?

I have said this before, I think our 7's team is nothing more than a vanity project. I don't think it brings us much in terms of 15's players. I would rather we dropped the 7's and put the money into a 3rd pro team. This 3rd team should be a development team, some old heads mixed with younger guys.

by whocares Tue May 28, 2013 9:36 am

7's is not meant to be a development platform for union in my opinion. it is a sport on its own and will become even more important after the olympics. I sort of agree though, either you properly invest in it or you dont and ignore it like Ireland does. Am far from being a specialist of Scottish rugby but I thought there was a 3rd team before and it was scrapped. what has changed to make it work now?

by cakeordeath Tue May 28, 2013 9:42 am

I think there were 4 teams at one point.

by Pat_Mustard Tue May 28, 2013 11:55 am

That's right, there were 4 teams, then 2, then 3, then 2 again. It wasn't found to be financially sustainable to have more than two at the time, although this had a lot to do with the SRU's debt from the redevelopment of Murrayfield.

This has reportedly been reduced to a more manageable level and the SRU are now in a position to invest more in the two existing pro-teams, and I would say this is the way forward for the time being. We need to be growing the support base for Edinburgh and Glasgow and we need to invest in their squads and facilities to achieve this.

If we can get them into the knockout stages of Europe regularly, and raise the supporter numbers to a level where it really boosts their ticketing/sponsorship/broadcast income, they will cost the SRU less to run (although it's probably not realistic to expect them to be completely self-sufficient) and then we might be able to afford a third and eventually fourth side. Just starting up more teams now wouldn't be sustainable IMO. Scrapping the 7s might help a bit but I expect their budget is a small fraction of that of a pro-side.

The only other way would be through outside investment, which the SRU will be wary of following the failed Carruthers brothers ownership of Edinburgh. If it was better executed it could work and there has been talk in the past of a consortium looking to set up in Aberdeen, although nothing has come of it.

I don't agree with those who say we don't have the players for further pro teams, there are close to 50 Scottish qualified players playing professionally outside Scotland, and the performances of our amateur sides against professionals in the British and Irish cup suggest that with professional training many could make the step up.

As mentioned of course negotiating entry into the Rabo would be another matter entirely and this might be impossible since the entry of the Italians. I would say 12 is about the right number of teams in a league, the Top 14 seems to drag on a bit too long. Hopefully there's a way we could make it work.

by Majestic83 Tue May 28, 2013 12:23 pm

I agree with the above comments about setting up a 3rd pro team. It could be done and we have the players to fill the squad. I would say the group of young players we have at the moment is the best we have had in a long time yet a lot of them are stuck playing club rugby due to there only being the 2 pro teams.
For me the 3rd pro team should be in Aberdeen. You need a large population base to draw fans in. Aberdeen obviously has this and has a large student population too which could be enitced along if marketed properly.
Having moved to Aberdeen recently the main thing that people seem to do is go out for dinner or go to the cinema on a friday night. Offer an alternate option like pro rugby and I think they could get a big backing as there are no real alternate options on a Friday night.
The Aberdeen population is also a very wealthy population due to the oil money and most would not mind parting with money to watch some rugby and have a few drinks at the game.

Investment for the backing of the team would also be alot easier to find than if it was a club in the borders due to the financial muscle of the international firms in Aberdeen and also the wealthy business men living in the area.

Rugby is popular in Aberdeen, Aberdeen GSFP have obviously had some success and there are alot of other clubs in the area doing well.

I was living out in Perth(OZ) when the Western Force franchise started and their marketing was really good and despite it being an aussie rules city they still drew large crowds the first season. They offered free train travel to and from games with match tickets, tickets were reasonably priced at around $20 per ticket, there were food and drink promotions which all added to the package of getting fans to the game. The promotion and marketing I feel is a big downfall for scottish rugby and doesn't promote rugby well to the public and doesn't encourage fans to come and watch pro rugby, especially Edinburgh.
If the marketing is done properly, prices for tickets are reasonable then I believe pro rugby in Aberdeen would get a big crowd.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Tue May 28, 2013 1:01 pm

Out of interest where would the 3rd Pro team play? Even if they were granted entry to the Rabo, where does the £4m+ a year come from to make them even relatively competitive?

by Pat_Mustard Tue May 28, 2013 1:23 pm

It's a long-term ambition, it will only ever be viable if we can make the sport more popular. More supporters means we will be worth more to sponsors and broadcasters as well as earning more from ticket and merchandise sales. The SRU need to prioritise spreading rugby's popularity beyond the typical middle class and borders towns if we are ever to have any real success or even to stay where we are in the long term

by **RDW** Tue May 28, 2013 1:25 pm

I can't see us dropping the 7s team before the Commonwealth games - no way.

In other news the Scotsman this morning seems to think that Edinburgh have appointed a SH coach from the Super XV with international experience....any takers??

by Pat_Mustard Tue May 28, 2013 3:08 pm

Yes, "The Scotsman understands that they are in talks with an experienced former Test coach currently involved in the Super Rugby Championship". I'm not that familiar with the coaches in Super XV, so no idea here. Doesn't say if they are currently a head coach, or if they were a head coach at Test level. Of course it could just be press make-believe.

by JayMaster3000 Tue May 28, 2013 7:03 pm

Would love to see a third Scottish side in the league, especially at the expense of the Italians, but that is another story.

Could Aberdeen get the support? Where would they play and train?

Could anyone name 15 Scotts, who play abroad, that could compete int the Celtic League?
Mention their current clubs, will allow 3 NSQ.

by **George Carlin** Tue May 28, 2013 7:07 pm

I would definitely can the 7s team - they are an absolute luxury and whilst they have proven to be an avenue for some 15 a side players to regain their fitness and let surplus wingers show what they can do, I don't recall a single full cap internationalist that would have been overlooked but for the 7s team.

Speaking personally. I keep coming back to the principle that the establishment of a third professional team should be driven by regional fans' hunger for the game and I just don't think that we're there yet with either the Borders or Aberdeenshire. I wouldn't spend it on a third pro team - I would spend it on doing a comprehensive study of the structure of the grass roots game and get whomever we commission it from to provide some solid ideas as to how we can (i) increase player numbers and (ii) increase the number of people willing to coach.

We really need to. Take a look at this:
Scottish Pro team thread Irb_pl10

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed May 29, 2013 7:13 am

whocares wrote:7's is not meant to be a development platform for union in my opinion. it is a sport on its own and will become even more important after the olympics. I sort of agree though, either you properly invest in it or you dont and ignore it like Ireland does. Am far from being a specialist of Scottish rugby but I thought there was a 3rd team before and it was scrapped. what has changed to make it work now?

You are correct, whocares, there were originally 4 pro- teams representing the four districts: Glasgow, Edinburgh, South, North & Midlands (Borders and Caledonan Reds as the pro teams for the last two, with the Borders even getting two bites at the cherry, so to say). You are even more spot on to ask "what has changed to make it work now?" - not a great deal is sadly the answer, and I don see that changing anytime soon

by cakeordeath Wed May 29, 2013 7:31 am

GC makes a very good point and I think I prefer his avenue for the money. Take the money and invest it in the grass-roots game.

Use it to pay for coaches to work with local schools.
Give clubs some extra money to help set up academy/youth programs
Invest some money in a coaching program to help improve the quality of coaching.

Take for example a club in Glasgow. Glasgow East RFC. The east end of Glasgow isn't exactly the heartland of rugby but these guys are doing a great job of promoting and running a rugby club in that area.

So rather than having a bunch of players travel the world mostly getting beaten every weekend how about the SRU throw some money into clubs like this.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed May 29, 2013 7:33 am

JayMaster3000 wrote:Would love to see a third Scottish side in the league, especially at the expense of the Italians, but that is another story.

Could Aberdeen get the support? Where would they play and train?

Could anyone name 15 Scotts, who play abroad, that could compete int the Celtic League?
Mention their current clubs, will allow 3 NSQ.

Jay, no sure it would be that difficult?

15. Jim Thompson - London Scottish
14. Max Evans - Castres
13. Alex Grove - Wuss
12. Duncan Taylor - Sarries
11. Oli Grove - London Scottish
10. Tom Heathcote - Bath; Phil Godman - London Scottish/Newcastle?; Tommy Allan - one of the south African sides?
9. Brendan McKibbin - 'Tahs; Rory Lawson - Newcastle (ignoring Mike Blair who has retired)
1. Al Dickinson - Sale/Newcastle; Kyle Traynor - Bristol?
2. Scott Lawson - L Irish/Newcastle
3. Euan Murray - Wuss
4. Richie Gray - Sale/Castres; Fraser McKenzie -Sale/Newcastle; Scott McLeod - Newcastle
5. Jim Hamilton - Gloucester/Racing Metro?; Aly Muldowney - Exeter/Connacht; Nick Campbell - Glasgow/Jersey (ignoring Nathan Hines who has retired)
6. Kelly Brown - Sarries; Al Strokosch - Perpignan
7. John Barclay - Glasgow/Llanelli Scarlets; Lewis Calder - London Scottish
8. Johnnie Beattie - Montpellier; Ally Hogg - Newcastle (ignoring Simon Taylor who has declared himself unavailable); Mitch Eadie - Bristol

Will need some help with a couple of my weaker options, but with 3 NSQs/project players, we're there! And i'm sure there are some obvious ones that i have forgotten. Admittedly not the strongest side in the world!

by **RDW** Wed May 29, 2013 7:46 am

Glasgow fans - where would you like to see your team strengthened this summer? You're pretty strong everywhere except 7 - anywhere else?

We've done Edinburgh in previous threads - to save you having to trawl through them the gist is 'everywhere'.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed May 29, 2013 7:52 am

I think the Weege look short a 7, even with Vernon's arrival/return, another 6/8 to add depth, and a centre - Bennett, Dunbar, Horne, Lamont at a push, and McGuigan

by Kingshu Wed May 29, 2013 8:29 am

I think a 3rd Scottish side would be allowed more than 3 NSQ to start with, Connacht are allowed a load more than the other provinces. I'd say if a 3rd Scottish side was created it would allow about 7 NSQ and reduce these over a few years to match the other teams

I do think Scotland do have to increase player numbers, Wales and Ireland have pretty much twice the number of players, even though its quality not quanity that matters, eventually numbers will tell with squad depths etc. Scotland are behind Italy in Player numbers, both have only 2 pro teams, it makes it intresting.

by **RDW** Wed May 29, 2013 8:32 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I think the Weege look short a 7, even with Vernon's arrival/return, another 6/8 to add depth, and a centre - Bennett, Dunbar, Horne, Lamont at a push, and McGuigan

6/8 and centre are the main areas of weakness for Edinburgh too - will be interesting to see who gets first dibs on new players! Edinburgh are definitely worse off though.

by **George Carlin** Wed May 29, 2013 8:33 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I think the Weege look short a 7, even with Vernon's arrival/return, another 6/8 to add depth, and a centre - Bennett, Dunbar, Horne, Lamont at a push, and McGuigan

Yes we do Asbo because Fozzy's fitness is still brittle and I'm more of a 7 than Vernon is.

I have to remember that we've lost Morrison and Rory Lamont so another quality utility back would be very useful indeed.

I was also going to mention lock but then I remembered that we signed 'ickle Jonny Gray. Not sure we should have re-signed Wight - particularly with the Rhubarb being flakier than a stale croissant in a wind tunnel. If a quality alternative was not available for purchase, then they should play Horne there and get another good centre instead.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed May 29, 2013 9:23 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I think the Weege look short a 7, even with Vernon's arrival/return, another 6/8 to add depth, and a centre - Bennett, Dunbar, Horne, Lamont at a push, and McGuigan

Agree about a 7, should be looking at NSQ or Project Player at this position. Don't think we need a 6/8, as we have Harley, Strauss and Vernon to cover 6 and Strauss, Wilson and Vernon to cover 8. Granted its only 4 players covering both positions, but all four are proven players at Pro level and James Eddie is also available.

I can see another Center/Wing player being signed.

Townsend was saying in the paper that he is happy at the squad, but they were looking to strengthen and he would not rule out one or two new signings. Same article listed McGugian as leaving (7s?) but they were not quoting anyone on that.

I honestly think for Glasgow to kick on to the next level, we need a top class Ten. We really need Weir to comeback from injury and get a proper run in the team. Jackson is just too inconsistent and he is at the age/level of experience. Where what you see is what I think we are going to get, going forward.

by **RDW** Wed May 29, 2013 9:31 am

Who have Glasgow released? Is the list as long as Edinburgh's (8)?

by **George Carlin** Wed May 29, 2013 9:38 am

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I think the Weege look short a 7, even with Vernon's arrival/return, another 6/8 to add depth, and a centre - Bennett, Dunbar, Horne, Lamont at a push, and McGuigan

Agree about a 7, should be looking at NSQ or Project Player at this position. Don't think we need a 6/8, as we have Harley, Strauss and Vernon to cover 6 and Strauss, Wilson and Vernon to cover 8. Granted its only 4 players covering both positions, but all four are proven players at Pro level and James Eddie is also available.

I can see another Center/Wing player being signed.

Townsend was saying in the paper that he is happy at the squad, but they were looking to strengthen and he would not rule out one or two new signings. Same article listed McGugian as leaving (7s?) but they were not quoting anyone on that.

I honestly think for Glasgow to kick on to the next level, we need a top class Ten. We really need Weir to comeback from injury and get a proper run in the team. Jackson is just too inconsistent and he is at the age/level of experience. Where what you see is what I think we are going to get, going forward.

I agree that a great 10 is potentially the difference between us winning the league next season and not, Dot. It would be hugely controversial but I would get rid of Jackson because I just don't think he'd good enough. We need an SQ (Meatball), a young SQ (Wight), a last gasp stand-in (Horne) and an experienced midfield general that all of the above can learn from. Can you imagine what a Brock James, Morne Steyn or (preferably) a Luke MacAllister would bring?

I would be astonished to see it happen but it's my dearest wish because it's the biggest thing holding the team back at the moment.

by Kingshu Wed May 29, 2013 9:39 am

For Glasgow to push on, bigger crowds are required, this will increase the spending power, and atractivness for Scottish players to return and NSQ to sign, as said earlier they should be looking at getting crowds of at least 8000 on average, they get around the same attendance as Connacht, but have the benefits of being in a big city, and being a better team.

I don't think a team can compete at the buiness end of seasons, on a consistance basis, without bigger crowds than Glasgow get. (I know they have made the last few play offs, but I think this is them punching above thier weight, for it to become regular in knock outs of H-cup and playoffs, they need a larger supporter base).

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed May 29, 2013 10:08 am

George Carlin wrote:
Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I think the Weege look short a 7, even with Vernon's arrival/return, another 6/8 to add depth, and a centre - Bennett, Dunbar, Horne, Lamont at a push, and McGuigan

Agree about a 7, should be looking at NSQ or Project Player at this position. Don't think we need a 6/8, as we have Harley, Strauss and Vernon to cover 6 and Strauss, Wilson and Vernon to cover 8. Granted its only 4 players covering both positions, but all four are proven players at Pro level and James Eddie is also available.

I can see another Center/Wing player being signed.

Townsend was saying in the paper that he is happy at the squad, but they were looking to strengthen and he would not rule out one or two new signings. Same article listed McGugian as leaving (7s?) but they were not quoting anyone on that.

I honestly think for Glasgow to kick on to the next level, we need a top class Ten. We really need Weir to comeback from injury and get a proper run in the team. Jackson is just too inconsistent and he is at the age/level of experience. Where what you see is what I think we are going to get, going forward.
I agree that a great 10 is potentially the difference between us winning the league next season and not, Dot. It would be hugely controversial but I would get rid of Jackson because I just don't think he'd good enough. We need an SQ (Meatball), a young SQ (Wight), a last gasp stand-in (Horne) and an experienced midfield general that all of the above can learn from. Can you imagine what a Brock James, Morne Steyn or (preferably) a Luke MacAllister would bring?

I would be astonished to see it happen but it's my dearest wish because it's the biggest thing holding the team back at the moment.

Wight is 27 and is the oldest FH on the books!

SRU are not going to sign a NQ FH of to start and I totally understand why. National team is crying out for a playmaker and with so few Qualified options playing outside of Scotland, we really need to have both Starting 10s being SQ.

by **RDW** Wed May 29, 2013 10:12 am

There’s no way Glasgow should be signing a foreign 10 with two International 10s on the books.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed May 29, 2013 10:14 am

Kingshu wrote:For Glasgow to push on, bigger crowds are required, this will increase the spending power, and atractivness for Scottish players to return and NSQ to sign, as said earlier they should be looking at getting crowds of at least 8000 on average, they get around the same attendance as Connacht, but have the benefits of being in a big city, and being a better team.

I don't think a team can compete at the buiness end of seasons, on a consistance basis, without bigger crowds than Glasgow get. (I know they have made the last few play offs, but I think this is them punching above thier weight, for it to become regular in knock outs of H-cup and playoffs, they need a larger supporter base).

Agree about the crowds to a certain extent, but most of the funding comes from SRU. I don't think any team in Europe that is doing well, is doing that based on income from the crowd income alone. Its a nice top up yes, but not as crucial as it might appear.

Glasgow and Edinburgh's main drawback at the moment is the standard of Qualified players available. Until the trickle of talent coming through becomes a relative flood then both teams are not going to compete at the business end of the HC.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed May 29, 2013 10:16 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:There’s no way Glasgow should be signing a foreign 10 with two International 10s on the books.

I agree. My point was that we need a top class 10 and we don't have one yet. We don't have the luxury like the French of upgrading the position via the Cheque book approach, so we have to develop what we have got.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed May 29, 2013 10:18 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Who have Glasgow released? Is the list as long as Edinburgh's (8)?

Barclay, Campbell and Taylor Paris have left and Lamont and Morrison have retired. Troy Nathan left during the season.

by **George Carlin** Wed May 29, 2013 10:23 am

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I think the Weege look short a 7, even with Vernon's arrival/return, another 6/8 to add depth, and a centre - Bennett, Dunbar, Horne, Lamont at a push, and McGuigan

Agree about a 7, should be looking at NSQ or Project Player at this position. Don't think we need a 6/8, as we have Harley, Strauss and Vernon to cover 6 and Strauss, Wilson and Vernon to cover 8. Granted its only 4 players covering both positions, but all four are proven players at Pro level and James Eddie is also available.

I can see another Center/Wing player being signed.

Townsend was saying in the paper that he is happy at the squad, but they were looking to strengthen and he would not rule out one or two new signings. Same article listed McGugian as leaving (7s?) but they were not quoting anyone on that.

I honestly think for Glasgow to kick on to the next level, we need a top class Ten. We really need Weir to comeback from injury and get a proper run in the team. Jackson is just too inconsistent and he is at the age/level of experience. Where what you see is what I think we are going to get, going forward.
I agree that a great 10 is potentially the difference between us winning the league next season and not, Dot. It would be hugely controversial but I would get rid of Jackson because I just don't think he'd good enough. We need an SQ (Meatball), a young SQ (Wight), a last gasp stand-in (Horne) and an experienced midfield general that all of the above can learn from. Can you imagine what a Brock James, Morne Steyn or (preferably) a Luke MacAllister would bring?

I would be astonished to see it happen but it's my dearest wish because it's the biggest thing holding the team back at the moment.

Wight is 27 and is the oldest FH on the books!

SRU are not going to sign a NQ FH of to start and I totally understand why. National team is crying out for a playmaker and with so few Qualified options playing outside of Scotland, we really need to have both Starting 10s being SQ.

Spanking/schooling duly received. He looks about 11, though. And I'm 35 now, so every fecker out there seems young to me.

My comment was one about Glasgow winning. Any player should have the shirt on merit. I am all in favour of Scots qualified players being developed but if they aren't up to snuff at the moment, then it would be a strange principle indeed that demanded they played if a better, non-SQ player was available. Highlights again the question of what the principle purpose of the pro teams is - is it to win matches or to act as development vehicles for young SQ players. Of course, it should be possible to do both, but the hard edge of that policy is tested with issues exactly like this one.

Of course that signing will never happen with the SRU in charge. However, if the clubs ever went fully private, I would think that it would happen pretty fast. Of course, we can see with the Top 14 being unable to produce a decent French 10 the potential problems with that but by the same token, how are our SQ players to ever progress to their maximum potential without figureheads in their positions in the squad. Harley has already spoken eloquently about how much he has learned from Strauss.

by Kingshu Wed May 29, 2013 10:28 am

Would Edinburgh be looking at bring Tom Heathcote, up to Scotland?

He's the best SQ flyhalf, playing outside Scotland.

To be honest Glasgow don't really require much, they have a very good squad, maybe a replacement for John Barclay, and more depth.

Every team that made the play offs suffered at some stage becuase of injuries, so it wasn't just a Glasgow thing and more depth being required, any more than Ulster or Leinster would require it. Replace the players lost in the backs, Duncan Taylor?

Personally I think Glasgow are the team to Watch this year, a good H-cup draw and they could make the knock outs, should be in running for play offs again, personally i think that if they dropped into Almin, it could be thier best chance of picking up silverware.

It surprises me that all the Killer Bee's have left, a big thing was made of them, and they all got snapped up by other teams, Next time youse have a good unit, better hope it remains hush hush.

by **RDW** Wed May 29, 2013 11:08 am

Heathcoat has said recently that he is staying at Bath, so can't see him coming

Interesting the new Edinburgh MD said that Ross Ford has another year left on his contract, but there's an article on the BBC from 2 years ago saying Ross Ford has signed a 2 year contract!

by 123456789 Wed May 29, 2013 11:49 am

I think it's imperative for us to have four teams eventually and I think it shouldn't be a case of whether or not we have enough players now but whether or not we can develop players in the future capable of playing at professional level.

I think the SRU need to look at systems like Manchester United, the German system and New Zealand as well as the Irish model - a country of a similar size, population and rugby history. The Borders doesn't have the population to sustain a top pro team but could easily host a "Connacht-esque" development side which takes their naturally gifted top players and gives them a platform before moving them on.

I think four academies would be good which take players on full time when they turn 16 which would mean that by the time they're twenty they wouldn't have the same problem of being physically inferior to their opponents and would allow them to develop amongst other top players.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed May 29, 2013 12:51 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Heathcoat has said recently that he is staying at Bath, so can't see him coming

Interesting the new Edinburgh MD said that Ross Ford has another year left on his contract, but there's an article on the BBC from 2 years ago saying Ross Ford has signed a 2 year contract!

These contract announcements are always strange. Niko was announced as a 3 year deal at the time, then it turns out it was 2 years with a year option.

Maybe Fords was the same and the option has been taken up.

by 123456789 Wed May 29, 2013 3:48 pm

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
Kingshu wrote:For Glasgow to push on, bigger crowds are required, this will increase the spending power, and atractivness for Scottish players to return and NSQ to sign, as said earlier they should be looking at getting crowds of at least 8000 on average, they get around the same attendance as Connacht, but have the benefits of being in a big city, and being a better team.

I don't think a team can compete at the buiness end of seasons, on a consistance basis, without bigger crowds than Glasgow get. (I know they have made the last few play offs, but I think this is them punching above thier weight, for it to become regular in knock outs of H-cup and playoffs, they need a larger supporter base).

Agree about the crowds to a certain extent, but most of the funding comes from SRU. I don't think any team in Europe that is doing well, is doing that based on income from the crowd income alone. Its a nice top up yes, but not as crucial as it might appear.

Glasgow and Edinburgh's main drawback at the moment is the standard of Qualified players available. Until the trickle of talent coming through becomes a relative flood then both teams are not going to compete at the business end of the HC.

I think the crowd's will come now if the SRU just leave Glasgow alone and they continue to play well. No silly coach changes, no stadium changes or anything like that and if they improve the marketing also the SKY deal will raise awareness bearing in mind they're only on ALBA currently. Hopefully people will see the handful of games on SKY feel they need more and go to watch.

Also if they can start competing in Europe that would help, Scotland doesn't have many sport sides that compete internationally

by **RDW** Thu May 30, 2013 1:06 pm

Edinburgh's pre-season fixtures have been announced, and are identical to last years but the other way round! Northampton away then Newcastle at home, potentially at Netherdale (which I think would be a great shout, although the Friday evening KO isn't ideal).

Worryingly though they haven't learnt the lessons of last year and are only have 2 games - it is no where near enough and we will go into the season cold again.

by **George Carlin** Thu May 30, 2013 1:49 pm

Glasgow only have 2 as well at the moment but they're against Quins and Chiefs. Let's see where Asbo"s allegiances truly lie...

Hopefully both sides will be able to add at least one more.

by **RDW** Thu May 30, 2013 1:56 pm

They usually do something against a Prem 1 team, but I'd much prefer 3 proper games.

It was particularly bad last year as Edinburgh had lots of new players to try out.

by 123456789 Thu May 30, 2013 4:09 pm

They should play the Scotland club XV and then judging by results they'd know roughly how far we are from three/ four pro sides

by highland_scot Thu May 30, 2013 5:25 pm

123456789 wrote:They should play the Scotland club XV and then judging by results they'd know roughly how far we are from three/ four pro sides

I like that idea. Also gives the club XV players a real chance to showcase their talents to the pro team coaches, and encourages pro players to buck their ideas up!

I think that Aberdeen could support a pro team fine, but only if it is seen as a team for Aberdeen and the North-East rather than a development tool for the SRU. I'm not sure how well supported a team would be if it were merely located in Aberdeen and loaded up with kids and old fogies with no link to the area, to go out and get destroyed every weekend.
For this reason I think such a thing would be best coming from an academy structure, with the pro team at the top of the pyramid. Talented kids from the schools and clubs get into the academy to train and play together, and develop from there into the pro team if they make the cut. It gives the club more of a community feel, which I feel the Irish clubs have got and Glasgow are coming onto. Issue in the Borders is there is almost too much community spirit at a town level. In the North East I think most people realise that Aberdeen and Inverness are the main service and population centres and as such, you need to get behind the top level teams in these cities. Not many football fans would want to see Aberdeen FC do badly purely because they're an Inverurie Locos fan, for example. If Aberdeen came knocking for their players they would be chuffed that the lad had done so well and would be more likely to watch Aberdeen and cheer on someone from their community.

An Aberdeen pro team could then also play some pre season matches in Inverness or Scumdee (sorry!) and spread the game about a bit more. There is some good talent up there, but to make the most of it you need to leave (this applies to all walks of life, not just rugby) - see Lee Millar, for example. Had we had a third team in Aberdeen he may have been playing there rather than Gala, being a former Moray player.

Money-wise, there is definitely wealth in Aberdeen to support it, but I fear the hands that feed may not take kindly to the level of SRU input that I could foresee.
Also not sure what league they could play in. I guess if it was to stem from an academy you could start off with the academy playing in the B&I cup?

by 123456789 Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:34 pm

highland_scot wrote:
123456789 wrote:They should play the Scotland club XV and then judging by results they'd know roughly how far we are from three/ four pro sides

I like that idea. Also gives the club XV players a real chance to showcase their talents to the pro team coaches, and encourages pro players to buck their ideas up!

I think that Aberdeen could support a pro team fine, but only if it is seen as a team for Aberdeen and the North-East rather than a development tool for the SRU. I'm not sure how well supported a team would be if it were merely located in Aberdeen and loaded up with kids and old fogies with no link to the area, to go out and get destroyed every weekend.
For this reason I think such a thing would be best coming from an academy structure, with the pro team at the top of the pyramid. Talented kids from the schools and clubs get into the academy to train and play together, and develop from there into the pro team if they make the cut. It gives the club more of a community feel, which I feel the Irish clubs have got and Glasgow are coming onto. Issue in the Borders is there is almost too much community spirit at a town level. In the North East I think most people realise that Aberdeen and Inverness are the main service and population centres and as such, you need to get behind the top level teams in these cities. Not many football fans would want to see Aberdeen FC do badly purely because they're an Inverurie Locos fan, for example. If Aberdeen came knocking for their players they would be chuffed that the lad had done so well and would be more likely to watch Aberdeen and cheer on someone from their community.

An Aberdeen pro team could then also play some pre season matches in Inverness or Scumdee (sorry!) and spread the game about a bit more. There is some good talent up there, but to make the most of it you need to leave (this applies to all walks of life, not just rugby) - see Lee Millar, for example. Had we had a third team in Aberdeen he may have been playing there rather than Gala, being a former Moray player.

Money-wise, there is definitely wealth in Aberdeen to support it, but I fear the hands that feed may not take kindly to the level of SRU input that I could foresee.
Also not sure what league they could play in. I guess if it was to stem from an academy you could start off with the academy playing in the B&I cup?

Maybe if they allowed "outsiders" to run the team but on the condition that at least 80% of the squad should was Scottish and they signed no more than one NSQ in a position

by CraigS1874 Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:26 pm

Regarding the 3rd team as much as I would like to see it happen i dont think its possible unless you get rid of Scotland A or the 7s. As an edinburgh boy living in aberdeen I dont think a team in aberdeen would be supported well enough, i attend aberdeen grammar games and to be honest there is not the support up here to get regulars going every week which would fund the team. When you look at Edinburgh and the borders there are big clubs everywhere in aberdeen there is only really aberdeenshire and the grammar and most of these players are students with a lot of them educated at edinburgh/lothians schools eg scotland under 20 players alex haggart and stuart smith.

Look at the scotland under 18 team that played against england recently 11 of the 15 were from east lothian or edinburgh. Edinburgh is the rugby strong hold for rugby and we still only get 3000 at games. No doubt in aberdeen you would generate some interest but not enough for it to be financially viable, I would love a team up here but it would need a lot of money invested to promote the game so I think it would be more worthwhile spending money in schools or 1st division clubs.

Having said all that I think for the development of players like dean and glashan they should be taken out of the 7s as glashan is not getting that much game time and chris dean has yet to nail a position in 15s and only playing 7s is will not help his development. As much as I like watching the 7s we need these players playing 15s and need to invest the money into the grass roots rather than winning nothing in a meaningless sevens series.

On a side note does anyone know who tommy allan is now playing for ? I would like to see him playing for edinburgh

by **George Carlin** Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:40 pm

Craig - Tommy Allan was signed by those sneaky feckers at Perpignan, unfortunately.

by EST Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:18 pm

Rumours on the Glasgow site that Will Bordill, an ever present at 7 for the Scottish U20's for the last two years, will move up to Glasgow for next season from Sale.

A good signing I think, quite small for a modern day back row - but so is Fusaro, and he is very good for Glasgow.

by funnyExiledScot Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:21 pm

With Barclay leaving Glasgow need another specialist 7, so Bordill sounds like a sensible signing, with he and Fusaro specialists, and Harley and Vernon providing utility cover.

The Edinburgh friendly fixtures look deeply uninspiring and as noted by RDW above, a frank refusal to accept that last seasons preparations were woefully inadequate. So far there are less new players to integrate, but still, we should be having at least 3, if not 4, pre-season games. Once again, I suspect several players will be undercooked in the opening stages of the Rabo.

by **RDW** Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:23 pm

Unbelievably Edinburgh are back at pre-season today - has the season not just ended??

At least they will have had plenty training before the season starts!

by **George Carlin** Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:28 pm

I see that Sean Kennedy has signed his first senior professional contract with Edinburgh to keep him at Murrayfield until 2015. There's quite literally no beginning to the excitement in the capital now.

by funnyExiledScot Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:46 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Unbelievably Edinburgh are back at pre-season today - has the season not just ended??

At least they will have had plenty training before the season starts!

To be fair the 2012-13 season never really started, and our season was pretty much done by Christmas. A number of them have basically taken a year off!

It does seem an early start, particularly given that there's only 2 games to prepare for before the season starts. Still, 2 months of lineout and restart drills wouldn't do them any harm.

Please about the Kennedy contract. Have high hopes for him this season. I think he's going to be pushing Laidlaw pretty hard. His speed and service are already sharper.

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