Leicester Tigers - 2013/14 Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Senior Squad

Props - Ayerza, Balmain, Bristow, Cole, Mulipola, Schuster, Stankovich
Hookers - Briggs, Chuter, Hawkins, Youngs
Locks - Cain, Deacon. De Chaves, Kitchener, Parling, Price, Slater
Back Row - Crane, Croft, Gibson, Mafi, Salvi, Waldrom

Scrum Halves - Harrison, Mele, Steele, Youngs
Outside Half - Flood, Lamb, Williams
Centres - Allen, Bowden, Smith, Tuilagi
Wings - Benjamin, Camacho, Goneva, Morris, Thompstone
Full Back - Hamilton, Tait

Coaches - Cockerill (DoR & Forwards), Blaze (Asst Forwards), Burke (Backs), Murphy (Asst Backs)


Aviva Premiership Fixtures

Sun 8 Sep 14:00 Leicester Tigers   32         Worcester Warriors 15
Sat 14 Sep 15:15 Bath Rugby  27   Leicester Tigers 20
Sat 21 Sep 15:00 Leicester Tigers  33   Newcastle Falcons 6
Sun 29 Sep 14:00 Exeter Chiefs   9   Leicester Tigers  22
Sat 5 Oct 15:15 Leicester Tigers 19   Northampton Saints  19
Sun 27 Oct 14:00 London Wasps 22   Leicester Tigers 12
Sat 2 Nov 17:30 Leicester Tigers  16   Harlequins 23
Sat 23 Nov 15:00 Leicester Tigers 20   London Irish 11
Sat 30 Nov 15:00 Gloucester Rugby 17   Leicester Tigers 22
Sat 21 Dec 15:00 Saracens  49 v   Leicester Tigers 10
Sat 28 Dec 15:00 Leicester Tigers   v   Sale Sharks
Sat 4 Jan 15:00 Leicester Tigers 27  v   Bath Rugby 27
Fri 7 Feb 19:45 Worcester Warriors  22 v   Leicester Tigers 23
Sat 15 Feb 15:00 Leicester Tigers 11  v   Gloucester Rugby  8
Sun 23 Feb 15:00 London Irish  15 v   Leicester Tigers 20
Sun 2 Mar 15:00 Newcastle Falcons  18 v   Leicester Tigers 41
Sat 22 Mar 15:00 Leicester Tigers   45 v   Exeter Chiefs 15
Sat 29 Mar 15:00 Northampton Saints 16  v   Leicester Tigers 22
Sat 12 Apr 15:00 Leicester Tigers   v   London Wasps Welford Road
Sat 19 Apr 15:00 Harlequins   v   Leicester Tigers Twickenham Stoop
Fri 2 May 20:00 Sale Sharks   v   Leicester Tigers Salford City Stadium
Sat 10 May 15:00 Leicester Tigers   v   Saracens Welford Road



Heineken Cup Fixtures

Friday, October 11 8pm Ulster Rugby 22  Leicester Tigers 16
Friday, October 18 8pm Leicester Tigers 34  Benetton Treviso 3
Sunday, December 8 3pm Leicester Tigers 41 Montpellier Herault Rugby 32
Sunday, December 15 4pm (local time) Montpellier Herault Rugby 14  Leicester Tigers 15
10/11/12 January 2014 Benetton Treviso 19 v Leicester Tigers 34
17/18/19 January 2014 Leicester Tigers 19 v Ulster Rugby 22
Saturday, 5th April ASM Clermont Auvergne v Leicester Tigers

[Rugby Fan]

I thought Cockerill did all he could do bar saying you'll be my 1st choice 10.

Cockerill did all he should have done if his priority was simply fielding his best team but not if he was considering longer term prospects. Ford's expectations weren't outsized. He was the 2011 IRB Junior Player of the Year. One of the players he beat to that award, England junior colleague Owen Farrell, was in the year above him and started his England career with the 2012 Six Nations. For Ford to feel he was on the same trajectory, he needed to at least be playing regular top level rugby in the 2012-13 season.

Cockerill gave him starts but never gave him a run. No doubt it would have been a difficult juggling act to give Ford more chances, and risk alienating Flood, but the policy at Tigers obliged him to leave. He's had a run of games at Bath and is looking much more assured. At Leicester, he'd still be playing second fiddle. More judiciously handled, Leicester would have got another year out of Ford before he felt restless. As it turns out, that would have been perfect for moving into Flood's spot.

[formerly known as Sam]

Ford played 21 games for Tigers last season, Flood played 23. It's hard to give a 10 more game time when his kicking percentages are so low. Ford has improved steadily every season as his development has continued, he will be the England flyhalf but only once he finishes the development of his kicking game.

Cockers said as soon as he was better than Flood he could start every week. Tigers also offered to make him the most well paid teenager in the clubs history. They couldn't guarantee first team rugby unlike his dad at Bath though who could match the financial package as well.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Quick check, how many England caps has ford won since moving and being first choice?

[Sgt_Pooly]

I thought Cockerill was pretty good rugby fan.

Ford had some absolute stinkers for Tigers but he kept getting game time. IRB U20 player of the year or not, if you can't cut it in the AP you don't deserve to start.

He seems to have kicked on a bit this year but that's thats surely down to the fact Cockerill stood by him when he wasn't producing the goods.

I imagine he'd have left even if he'd have started every game for Tigers.

[Rugby Fan]

Quick check, how many England caps has ford won since moving and being first choice?

When any discussion of potential England fly halves takes place, Ford is now a regular mention. That's a sea change in perception compared with his last year at Leicester.

In 2012-13, Ford was in the Saxons but had an unimpressive series of matches. I don't think he had a real chance to get into any kind of rhythm while at Leicester. It's no good just totting up a simple total of his appearances and taking that as a measure of his opportunities.

I'm not going to argue that Ford was, or is, better than Flood, or that he's an automatic choice for England now. My point is that Leicester's policy of telling him to hold his horses and get back in his box was the wrong one.

Cockerill's strategy with the two players was to assume that he wasn't going to lose Flood. This now looks to have been proved to be incorrect. If Flood had gone down to injury, then that would have just been bad luck. However, the possibility that a French club might put in bid was always there. That was reason enough to keep Ford more actively engaged last season. All he needed was to feel his career was moving forward.

[Sgt_Pooly]

But he didn't warrant a starting berth RF, he was really poor at times. End of the day rugby is a results game, you can't keep starting a player that isn't producing the goods surely?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Quick check, how many England caps has ford won since moving and being first choice?

When any discussion of potential England fly halves takes place, Ford is now a regular mention. That's a sea change in perception compared with his last year at Leicester.

In 2012-13, Ford was in the Saxons but had an unimpressive series of matches. I don't think he had a real chance to get into any kind of rhythm while at Leicester. It's no good just totting up a simple total of his appearances and taking that as a measure of his opportunities.

I'm not going to argue that Ford was, or is, better than Flood, or that he's an automatic choice for England now. My point is that Leicester's policy of telling him to hold his horses and get back in his box was the wrong one.

Cockerill's strategy with the two players was to assume that he wasn't going to lose Flood. This now looks to have been proved to be incorrect. If Flood had gone down to injury, then that would have just been bad luck. However, the possibility that a French club might put in bid was always there. That was reason enough to keep Ford more actively engaged last season. All he needed was to feel his career was moving forward.

He was mentioned previously and now we don't have Hodgson on the scene.
The discussion now is also taking place on the basis that flood is gone a well, burns dropped by his club and clegg totally shot.

A lot more has change since then than just ford getting first choice at bath and a pay rise.

Still he apparently finds himself behind cipriani in lancasters thinking.
Now twelvetrees is getting first choice starts at 10 maybe England will go back to Lancaster old choice of only having one specialist 10 in a match day squad.

Lets wait and see.

I don't get how we can slag off cocker ill for only starting his second best player in half the games on a season though or refusing to pay him more than they can afford.
There's always another wonder kid available who will want the opportunity.

Sadly aggressive poaching of players is a part of the game now as is short termism and a belief that players should be going straight into England shirts at 21 when in reality few are ready.
It's something all clubs have to cope with especially under restricted spending.

[beshocked]

Read that Ford missed 4 penalties and one conversion vs Quins. He's a good player of course but seems like he needs to up his kicking percentage.

Don't think Tigers can be blamed for losing Ford. Ford wanted to be with his father.

Wonder if Twelvetrees would consider a move back to Tigers!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Only if we guarantee him the 12 shirt then pick him at 10 ahead if burns.

[lostinwales]

....
I don't get how we can slag off cocker ill for only starting his second best player in half the games on a season though or refusing to pay him more than they can afford.
There's always another wonder kid available who will want the opportunity.

And there is always no shortage of people prepared to proclaim them as the new messiah as well. The guys who really can hack it right from day one are a rarity.

[formerly known as Sam]

Whilst Allen remains at Tigers I can't see 36 returning. Even if Allen left Twelvetrees is vice captain at Glaws and their style of play really suits him. He's in a good place for him which should be better next season when Glaws have a passable front row.

Ford has a brilliant skill set, two questions hang over him. Can he step up to international level and can he achieve consistency from the boot. Given England's midfield injuries but plethora of talent out wide a Ford, Farrell, Twelvetrees centre combo could be trialled at some point in the 6N, maybe against Italy.

Remember Ford only turned 20 at the tail end of last season. Most 19 year olds play second fiddle to 27 year old internationals with over 50 caps to their name. He was given chances but his kicking was just very unreliable. Sometimes he'd slot them over from the touchline and then miss the next one from right in front of the posts. Once he missed one he'd invariably miss another one as it seemed to take a second miss for him to find his rhythm again.

[Rugby Fan]

Here's how Nick Cain described the start to George Ford's season last year. He was writing in October 2012:

There are imperfections in most rugby structures, but, when it comes to getting the right outcome for the national team, England’s stick out like a carbuncle. Everywhere you look there are players who are contenders for the Red Rose shirt – or those who should be contenders – either playing out of position for their Premiership clubs, or stuck on the bench getting very little game time.

The Leicester boy-wonder, George Ford, is probably the most glaring case in point. We were told over the summer that the England coach Stuart Lancaster and the Leicester director of rugby, Richard Cockerill, had agreed that the best course of action for Ford’s development was for the 19-year-old to stand down from the England tour of South Africa, and/or the England U20s bid to win the Junior World Championships, in favour of an intensive weights programme.

This was designed to make the talented but lightweight 5ft 9in fly-half more powerful and dynamic, and, I understand that it has worked to the extent that Ford, who already possessed rapid acceleration over the first 10-15 metres, has not only filled out but is faster in speed tests than ever before.

Yet, for the first four games of the Premiership season, he has been stuck on the Tigers bench with Toby Flood starting every match at fly-half, so far getting just 22 minutes out of the 320 Premiership minutes on offer. This included Ford sitting out the draw against Saracens at Wembley and the home defeat by Harlequins last weekend in their entirety, despite Leicester failing to score a try in either match...

...To me it is a travesty that Ford, who will be 20 in March, is being held in reserve to the extent that he does not have a prayer of making the England squad for the autumn series, and it is surprising that Lancaster is so accepting of the situation...Why should Ford’s development be put on hold any more than that of Farrell or Manu Tuilagi, both of whom were capped by England at the age of 20, or, for that matter Jonny Wilkinson, who won his first England cap at the age of 18? Like them, if Ford is good enough, he is old enough – and England are in need of a fly-half who can challenge Flood and Farrell to raise their games.

It makes no sense to me to talk of Ford being too young, or needing to bide his time. Everywhere he looks in the international game today, there's a 20 year old player who has an international career well under way. Halfpenny was a Lion at 20, North and Farrell got the honour at 21.

A more valid argument would be that he simply isn't good enough. Here again, though, Leicester ought to be asking themselves why Ford looks better for Bath than he did last year for them. To me, the answer is obvious: the West country team is giving him game time.

If Leicester have no concerns about losing Ford then the team should also have no regrets about the way they handled him. As far as I can tell, though, there appear to be quite a few voices wishing Tigers could now call on his services.

[broadlandboy]

Rugby Fan I don't know what your agenda is but Ford had opportunities last season at Tigers but he didnt take them. It was not a case of delaying his developement. Other youngsters when given took them( eg Manu & B Youngs). He is now a year older & at his age that is a long time. Who knows that if he had stayed he could already be ahead of Flood but he choose not to so we will never know.

[formerly known as Sam]

That comment was after 4 games. How is that relevant when Ford played in another 20 games after that? Ford had his chances over the course of the season but didn't play well enough to take the 10 shirt. I'd hope every player of his age is still developing and Ford did come on massively after Tigers made him the youngest player to play in a full professional game. It's a balancing act, young talent needs game time but if the young talent is not delivering you can't let the team results suffer you have to go back to the in form player irrelevant of who that is.

Players develop at different ages, I fail to see why every promising player must be thrown into international rugby ASAP. It did Tait so much good in the short term didn't it. The chances are Ford will be capped soon but mainly due to a distinct lack of viable options for England. Ford has more developing to do but so much natural talent that a club with Bath's resources should have coaches to tap that potential.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I dunno it certainly helped cipriani, he's on the verge if getting his 8th cap now.

[Rugby Fan]

Rugby Fan I don't know what your agenda.

I really don't think I have an agenda. I certainly hope I don't. Let me stress, I'm not especially a fan of George Ford. I agree with the view that his goalkicking has proved unreliable, and I don't have him down as the second coming. However, I can't ignore the fact that he was once widely seen as a better player than Owen Farrell. Farrell developed when, owing to squad injuries at Saracens, he got a run of games. Ford never got that run at Tigers, so I simply wonder what might have happened if he had. I suspect he would have stayed longer at his first club, which, as it now transpires, would probably have suited both parties.

I'm an England supporter. At his best, I think Ben Youngs is probably our best scrum half prospect. From a selfish England perspective, it would be good to have a potential England 10 playing alongside him. Once Flood goes, the only club with an England 10/9 combination will be Saints, and it's not as if Myler & Dickson are the leading options in either position. If Leicester bring Burns over, and he rediscovers his form, then that might mollify me somewhat.

Meanwhile, I reserve the right to have been annoyed when Cockerill claimed there was nothing he could have done to keep Ford at Leicester. If Nick Cain could spot the potential problem four games into the season, then it should have been plain as day to the coach. It's too easy, and a little dishonest, for him to write it off just as a young man's impatience or greed. There was a better way to have handled him.  It just didn't happen to be the way Cockerill likes to do things.

[broadlandboy]

Do you think Farrel would have got his chance if it wasn't for injurys to the players infront of him? They both had potential both got a chance Farrel took his, Ford didn't. Ford played in 2 finals but wasn't considered better than Flood by just about everybody. So you think a coach should develop a youngster & risk losing rather than play the better player. If Ford had stayed & got better than Flood he would have got the starting spot. Cockerill has a proven record for bringing on young tallent. Both Manu & B Youngs were dropped after starting for England as time was needed for them to develop.

[Rugby Fan]

Do you think Farrel would have got his chance if it wasn't for injurys to the players infront of him?

I doubt whether he would. Nevertheless, he did get that chance, and his career zoomed ahead of Ford's. Leicester might wish that Farrell's fortune should be irrelevant to their man, but which player doesn't measure himself against his direct peers and contemporaries?

Leicester couldn't have offered Ford all the blessings Farrell enjoyed without unsettling Flood. There was more that could have been done, however.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Ford and Farrell did play in the same U20 side and Ford did recieve most of the plaudits. It could be argued that Farrell was playing out of position at 12 to accomodate Ford though?

I agree with Sam and Broad, Ford just didn't cut the mustard when given the chance and he had many chances to impress.

I dare say he's still not cutting the mustard, his place kicking is pretty shabby for an apparent messiah at 10.

[formerly known as Sam]

It's worth noting Farrell is two years older than Ford. Ford was only 18 when forcing the 20 year old Farrell to 12. Ford has played in three finals where Tigers could have selected other players. He was backed and only in one was his kicking any good.

Stop referring to the Cain article I've already pointed out It's flaws in this argument.

[Rugby Fan]

It's worth noting Farrell is two years older than Ford.

Farrell is 18 months older than Ford. In school terms, Farrell is the year above Ford.

Back in October 2008, Farrell made his professional debut, becoming the youngest English player to so. In November 2009, Ford made his professional debut and he became the youngest to do so.

There's no reason why Ford would see himself as two years behind Farrell.

[formerly known as Sam]

Other than age. Ford still qualifies for the under 20s this season. Hardly a wasted career.

Ford is the player he is this season because Tigers gave him 20 first team games last season. What more can you do? Tell the fans "we're not interested in the results this season we're just going to develop this 10 who can't kick particularly well". I'm led to believe that the signing of Mele (a goal kicking 9) was to facilitate giving Ford more game time this season but removing some pressure so he could develop past Flood. Bath were able to offer the shirt straight out.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Lets not forget Farrell was playing for his club and picked for england as a center as well. Ford had started more games at 10 for his club than Farrell had at that point.
Versatility played a big part here, same way Flood got his start for England when playing behind Wilkinson.

Of course Ford couldve been the next Rhys Priestland and universally hated by now if only he'd signed for a club that didnt have the current England first choice 10.

Theres a myriad of reasons why Ford is not the current Englands starting 10. Cockerill picking his best side is only one small part of that.

[Rugby Fan]

Theres a myriad of reasons why Ford is not the current Englands starting 10. Cockerill picking his best side is only one small part of that.

I completely agree with that. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I'm looking to push Ford's case as an England starter. The only case I'm making is that, better-handled, he would still be a Tigers player today, which is an outcome that might suit all parties right now.

I appreciate that, for some supporters, this subject appears to touch a raw nerve. I can only say that, a year ago, I also thought the club had done as much as it could for Ford - I wrote as much on this forum. I changed my mind after looking more closely at the quality of chances he got lost year, and the clear benefit a run of games seems to have had for him at Bath.

[beshocked]

Owen Farrell was fortunate but took his opportunity - Glen Jackson had just retired, Hougaard was also injured and showing erratic form. Farrell Jr stepped up and led Saracens to the AP title.

He became indisputed no 1 fly half at the club. Interestingly though when Hodgson signed for Saracens, Farrell was no longer the indisputed no 1 fly half. Ever since they have had to fight for that 10 shirt - both warrant being 1st choice. Those kind of situations are tough because every player wants to start every game. The difference to Ford is that Farrell's stock had risen to the extent that there were no doubts about sharing the gametime between Farrell and Hodgson.

Perhaps Hodgson is frustated having to share the 10 shirt with Farrell but rugby is a squad game. Injuries happen - Farrell surely must sit out the next couple of games with concussion.

Each squad IMO needs two top players in each position and that includes 10 because it's a long season. Unfortunately for Tigers - 10 is becoming an awfully serious issue. If you said that a couple of years ago with Flood,Ford and 36 (a back up) you would be called mad. Now all three have left/leaving.

You are all right - Ford has had that competition from Flood. Unfortunately for Ford he was always seen as 2nd choice because of his lack of experience in my opinion. We all know that injuries create opportunities for players - with Flood rarely injured, Ford did not have a real chance to put a string of games together.

36 is another of those Tigers players who felt he was getting limited gametime.

Certainly it does seem that Leicester's losing of Ford and 36 has seemed to have bitten them in the backside.

36 is being utilised ahead of Burns at 10 too.

It's a shame to see Leicester struggling in a position where they developed two decent options - Ford and 36 who have subsequently left the club.

[formerly known as Sam]

http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/leicester_tigers_senior_squad.php?player=88441&includeref=dynamic

No run of games? Look at that list and he clearly had a run of games. He was a developing player who has told he needed to be first choice for his club in order to earn a call up. He wasn't good enough to oust Floody so he moved to a club where there was no serious competition. Could Cockerill have done anymore to keep him? He could have made him first choice and the short term detriment to the team.

Twelvetrees went for the money. He'd verbally agreed a deal with Tigers only to change his mind once Glaws offerred him an extra 50% on top of his salary. He'd also got the 12 shirt before deciding that he wanted to chase the money and got dropped by Cockers who was upset by the actions of Billy and his agent.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Ford left because he wasn't up to the challange.

If he was at Tigers now he still wouldn't be first choice 10 as his kicking is sub-standard. He'll get better and Bath seem quite happy allowing him to improve on the pitch.

Tigers as top 4 side competing in Europe could not afford to do this.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

So flood hasn't even made the match day squad after a poor performance, is he dropped it injured?

It also strike me that it was cockerill who outed him as leaving immediately after his denial it was a done deal, is there some bad blood there?

Has cockerill deliberately sabotaged floods 6 nations or have I been drinking too much eggnog and watching too many kevin Costner movies?

[formerly known as Sam]

Flood could well be struggling with the glute strain. It seemed to be his right cheek as well so that's going to pull like a bitch when he's kicking and it'll effect his sprinting.

Williams needs to stand up in this game and try to change the management's perception of him if he wants to have the 10 shirt next season.

[sirtidychris]

Twelvetrees never had the 12 shirt he has being moved to a different position every time he started and Allen had the shirt, if Leicester had a full side with no injuries now and billy was there he would still be a utility man. Since moving he's now starting 12 for England and played for the lions, glos aren't doing well but unlike burns billy is still doing okay.

[formerly known as Sam]

Tigers were forces to utilise him at 10 due to Staunton the only 10 other than Flood having a back problem which forced his retirement and this was two years ago when Ford was still a diminutive 18 year old. He also covered 13 when Manu was injured. Glaws have also used him at 10 several times including last weekend. Flood has played 12 and Allen 13 when Tigers have required it. No player is bigger than the team. Twelvetrees was in a run of games including several at 12 and a couple ahead of the recovered Allen. Had he not taken that opportunity to announce he was back tracking on his verbal agreement with Tigers and taking Glaws bigger offer I think he'd have finished the season as the first choice 12 though probably playing 10 as Flood was injured for the last two games of the season.

[sirtidychris]

He's nailed on starter at 12 for Gloucester, he only gets moved when he really needs to at Leicester he wasnt guarnteed his 12spot just filling in where there were injuries. No player is bigger than the team but no club is better than a persons career, if he was at tigers his international career would be a year behind where it is now.

[formerly known as Sam]

Possibly. You could also theorize that having won a spot in the Tigers first team that fighting to keep it would have forced him to develop the inadequacies in his game that still exist. From Twelvetrees point of view, he moved to Glaws on the back of a pay rise and a guaranteed starting spot and got those things. I think the Glaws manner of play definitely suits him but it looks like he'll now play in fewer big games for his club which may or may not affect his selection chances with England.

[nathan]

He's starting 12 in an England team with with a bit of an injury crisis in the centres.

[yappysnap]

Cockers in the dog house again!

Leicester coach Richard Cockerill's broadside at officials and opposition after the Tigers' 30-23 win over Sale Sharks at the weekend is perhaps a fitting end to the year for a man who too often found himself making the headlines for all the wrong reasons.

His main gripe at the weekend - the one which caused him to accuse his opponents of "cheating" - was that Sale's front row constantly refused to take the engagement and walked backwards. "Sale were competitive but when sides come to cheat and cheat and cheat," he said.

But writing in the Daily Telegraph, former England hooker Brian Moore has said that Cockerill is wrong and that the authorities have to step in and reprimand him.

"Charges like cheating and incompetence are serious and should be founded in fact," Moore wrote. The fact is [Cockerill] is simply wrong. There is no offence of not taking the hit or engagement or coming together or anything else. That a former international hooker either does not know this or chooses to invent offences with which to berate all and sundry is risible.

"The Rugby Football Union and Premier Rugby should not tolerate this seemingly ineluctable diatribe against anything he does not like, especially when factually incorrect."

When will he learn to keep his gob shut?!

Now no matter what comes out of this he's just going to end up looking more of a fool and a whinger then ever before. Surely a quiet word to the right people would have been better? Or get on with his own job, evaluate what Sale did and work on not allowing teams to get on with it again. I'm sure Cole (or who ever was propping) would much prefer to just spend time getting coached on how to deal with these tactics, rather then watch his club get dragged through the mire.

[formerly known as Sam]

Notice that Cockers contribution to that article was one sentence and that Moore seems to have added various additions to the interview which in the main was about Tigers needing to improve ahead of next week. Having said that Cockers should know the media consider him an easy target and he really should either let Burke deal with the media or just give much briefer and duller interviews.

[Metal Tiger]

Cockers in the dog house again!

Leicester coach Richard Cockerill's broadside at officials and opposition after the Tigers' 30-23 win over Sale Sharks at the weekend is perhaps a fitting end to the year for a man who too often found himself making the headlines for all the wrong reasons.

His main gripe at the weekend - the one which caused him to accuse his opponents of "cheating" - was that Sale's front row constantly refused to take the engagement and walked backwards. "Sale were competitive but when sides come to cheat and cheat and cheat," he said.

But writing in the Daily Telegraph, former England hooker Brian Moore has said that Cockerill is wrong and that the authorities have to step in and reprimand him.

"Charges like cheating and incompetence are serious and should be founded in fact," Moore wrote. The fact is [Cockerill] is simply wrong. There is no offence of not taking the hit or engagement or coming together or anything else. That a former international hooker either does not know this or chooses to invent offences with which to berate all and sundry is risible.

"The Rugby Football Union and Premier Rugby should not tolerate this seemingly ineluctable diatribe against anything he does not like, especially when factually incorrect."

When will he learn to keep his gob shut?!

Now no matter what comes out of this he's just going to end up looking more of a fool and a whinger then ever before. Surely a quiet word to the right people would have been better? Or get on with his own job, evaluate what Sale did and work on not allowing teams to get on with it again. I'm sure Cole (or who ever was propping) would much prefer to just spend time getting coached on how to deal with these tactics, rather then watch his club get dragged through the mire.

Technically they are both correct...

Brian Moore is a tool but he is correct in that their is not a technical offence in refusing to engage.

Cockers is also correct that Sale were deliberately walking backwards on the set in order to con the ref into thinking Tigers werepushing early... in effect they cheated.

I was at the game and everyone in the crowd could see that Sale were doing this deliberately and were getting incenced about it... the ref finally cottoned on and started to ping Sale for it.. but not before the cheating tactic cost Tigers two prime attacking platforms.

[Welly]

Good news

apparently Allen has signed a 3 year deal.

And Williams is starting to shows signs of real Promise.

[gregortree]

'Cheating' ? quelle shocking for Cockers tender young Tigers, how will they cope ?

[Metal Tiger]

'Cheating' ? quelle shocking for Cockers tender young Tigers, how will they cope ?

All teams walk a fine line on what is legal & what is not. After all it is the raison d'etre of most back rowers...

No one is surprised that Sale tried it on... more that they kept getting away with it when it was so bleeding obvious what they were up to.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

The other thing with this being was the refs option was to start issuing free kicks. Essentially going to uncontested scrums to negate Tigers tiring out their front row players and earning penalties/cards. Wasps may not have been "cheating" by having players come off for very minor injuries they could normally have played through, but it sure as hell isnt in the spirit of the game.

Whether you agree with Moore or not it does destroy the whole point of scrums if the pushing contest can be legally avoided. Cockerill has used his usual tact and diplomacy to bring this up and "enhanced" his reputation but someone should be standing up and saying "what are you here to do : play rugby or figure out how to break the game".

[gregortree]

Metal Tiger, of course, of course....
If you have ever been to an away game at Kingsholm, you will probably have heard the old chant:

'Same old Leicester.....
...always cheating'

Its a compliment really as most clubs (mine included) are jealous of Leicester's consistent success down the years.
Cockers moaning abour Sale 'cheating' .. made I chuckle really. Sale are having a better season so maybe are onto something here. Sadly I do not recall enough accusations of Gloucester cheating lately   .. and look at our position in the AP. And now Cockers has been tapping up our man outside the 'rules' naughty old Cockers.

[Metal Tiger]

Metal Tiger, of course, of course....
If you have ever been to an away game at Kingsholm, you will probably have heard the old chant:

'Same old Leicester.....
...always cheating'

Its a compliment really as most clubs (mine included) are jealous of Leicester's consistent success down the years.
Cockers moaning abour Sale 'cheating' .. made I chuckle really. Sale are having a better season so maybe are onto something here. Sadly I do not recall enough accusations of Gloucester cheating lately    .. and look at our position in the AP. And now Cockers has been tapping up our man outside the 'rules' naughty old Cockers.

Been a few times... always love it when Glaws start singing that particular ditty.

[gregortree]

..yes usually when Leics have the upper hand   

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Anyone care to remind me how many times they lost in the playoffs to Tigers?

[Metal Tiger]

Cockers is a character to be sure and does suffer from "foot in mouth" syndrome on occassions.... however... most Tigers fans can overlook his indiscretions as he is so completely, unapologetically devoted to the club & his players. If you cut open his chest it would say Welford Road across his heart.

[gregortree]

Pete Wheeler....my answer
'no'

[Metal Tiger]

Anyone care to remind me how many times they lost in the playoffs to Tigers?

Who? Glaws or Sale?

I only remember off the top of my head meeting Sale once in the play offs and that was in the final.

And we knew it would be their only chance of silverware for a very long time... so we... ahem... threw the game just to make them happy.

Cuz that's just how we roll.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Was a time you couldve said that about Dorian West ....now it says " Bitter"

[Metal Tiger]

Was a time you couldve said that about Dorian West ....now it says " Bitter"

And Deano.

Unfortunately a great love spurned usually turns sour.

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