The "Underrated XV"

Which International players do you think never quite got the recognition they deserved? Were they always playing in the shadow or a more illustrious team-mate? Were they never given many caps because of coaches having their favourites? Did they get loads of caps but were never talked about? Or did you just like the way they played? Put together an XV from the country you support - I reckon there could be a few surprises.

1. Gareth Chilcott. Hard as nails but only amassed 14 caps. A real character.
2. Graham Dawe. Always on the bench because of Mr Moore. No shame there.
3. Darren Garforth. 1/3 of the infamous ABC club; had to vye with Leonard, Vickery & Ubogu for International honours. Should have had more caps than his 25.
4. Garath Archer. Solid guy. Unlucky enough to play in the same era as Johnson & Grewcock who took the majority of caps.
5. Nigel Redman. Short-ish for a lock, but never ever let anyone down. Toured with the Lions in 97 who realised his worth.
6. Ben Clarke. Great, great player; could play anywhere in the back row and always did a fine job; nobody talks about him. If he was 10 years younger he'd be mentioned in the same way as Hill, Back & Dallaglio.
7. Magnus Lund. So much potential. Such a pity it was never realised. Still only 29!
8. Tim Rodber. One of the finest & most gentlemanly 8s this country has produced. Largely forgotten which is a pity. He would be my Captain.
9. Kyran Bracken. Fierce rivalry with Dawson. Although a World Cup Winner, never seemed to quite hit the same heights.
10. Stuart Barnes. Never given the chance to shine due to England's obsession with safe playing Andrew & his goalkicking prowess. Shame.
11. Adedayo Adebayo. Quick & Elusive. Deserved to get way more than his 6 caps.
12. Simon Halliday. Carling was always preferred, even when he was off form. I though Simon got a rum deal.
13. Nick Greenstock. A big lump of a centre; unfortunately was around at the time of a certain Will Greenwood & the strange obsession with Phil DeGlanville.
14. David Rees. Seen as too small but stupidly quick and very effective. Ask Jonah!
15. Paul Hull. Also a bit of a small guy but seemed to glide around the field. I just liked him as he seemed a bit of an underdog!

15. Matt Cardy
14. Nick Walne
13. Hal Luscombe
12. Andy Marinos
11. Chris Czekaj
10. Ceri Sweeney
9. Warren Fury

8. Hemi Taylor
7. Alix Popham
6. Josh Turnbull
5. Derwyn Jones
4. Will James
3. Eifion Roberts
2. Gareth Williams
1. Christian Loader

If that team had played together they would have won the world cup.

Bounce you have some very good selections there, interesting post.

Thanks maesteg! Glad it caught your eye

Ben Clarke was never really underrated. He was the pick of the 1993 Lions, and featured in an England team which beat the All Blacks for the first time in ten years. He also won a Grand Slam and starred in a victory over South Africa.

His problems started when he joined Richmond. With the advent of professionalism, a plan formed to turn the club into a team of superstars and take it into the top division. Clarke was their highest-paid recruit, which gives you some idea of his status at the time.

Unfortunately, it was all a bit of a shambles. The club never came together and it was difficult for Clarke get the intensity he needed. When Woodward took over the national side, he didn't want to select players from lower divisions. If Clarke had stayed with Bath, I don't doubt he'd have had more caps.

The difficulty in suggesting players should have more caps is that you have to say who they should have replaced. In today's game, with large squads, you can get a useful number of appearances without ever being first choice. In amateur days, you didn't get off the bench unless someone was injured.

That's one reason why Stuart Barnes threw his toys out of the pram. After riding the pine for an eternity without any playing time, he eventually declined to be a reserve. Although England persevered with Andrew through drops in form, Barnes would have got more chances if he'd stuck with it.

McGeechan was the making and breaking of England at that time. Most of the double Grand Slam-winning side came of age on the 1989 Lions tour. We were suddenly a team unleashed in the 1990 Five Nations but the Murrayfield ambush forced a far more pragmatic approach.

It would have been fascinating to see the Bath midfield - Barnes, Halliday and Guscott - turn out for us. Even better if Gary Rees had been selected ahead of Winterbottom at open side. He had much better hands than Winterbottom, playing a bit like Martyn Williams, and would have linked the forwards and backs more effectively.

Would they have won Grand Slams and made it to a World Cup final? There's no way of knowing. I suspect not, though.

In the modern era I would say:
1. Ryan Grant (don't know how he isn't on the lions tour)
2. Adriann Strauss (best hooker in the southern hemisphere I think, has led the cheetahs this year)
3. David Wilson (I believe he is more developed than Cole, strong ball carrier and he is the best scrummaging tight head in England)
4. Nick Kennedy (a real start in Toulon's success this year)
5. Jim Hamilton (a strong enforcer in the Scotland team. along with Grant he's lead that Scottish pack)
6. Sean O'Brien (yes he isn't underrated as a player but he is underrated at 6, he isn't a 7)
7. Justin Tipuric (best 7 in Europe no doubt about that)
8. Ben Morgan (another one who I believe should be on that tour, England star for the future)
9. Danny Care (his work around the fringes are second to none in the world, underused by Lancaster)
10. Aaron Cruden (New Zealand's future star and not given enough praise due to the master himself being the star at the moment)
11. Sean Lamont (hasn't played well this year but because he has been played at centre, he is a strong winger
12. Twelvetrees (a very strong centre, him and Tuilagi would be a strong attacking force)
13. ?
14. Christian Wade (best winger in England yet he isn't in the starting 15, and England's main weakness in their back 3 )
15. Ben Foden (has been a star in the but has disappeared of late, much better than Goode and has been playing good for Northampton

Don't know much about southern hemisphere players which is why I only have one, but that one has stood out every time I have seen him.
Also anyone can fill that 13 slot

Mr Bounce wrote:6. Ben Clarke.
12. Simon Halliday.

With a real Bath bias to your selection, I am surprised that Jon Hall is not there. Much better then Clarke and seriously under-capped.
With Halliday - there was a period when Guscott and Carling were both off form, and their team mates Halliday and Salmon were the better options. With all the success that Carling and Guscott had though it is hard to say they did not deserve what they got.

hamer25

I like that side but there are a few points I'd like to point out if thats ok...

Grant is just a bit young and inexperienced for the tour, he has shown immense potential though and should be Scotlands future of the front row!

SOB is an over rated player, as in he's a good ball carrier with a perceived super game that lends itself to a 7 shirt, he is therefore a limited 7 but perceived as better than he is. He could be a top class 6 or 8 though IMO.

Morgan is rated massively by all, and rightly so, but there is a lot of work behind the scenes to keep him fit and conditioned as there was to get him to pro standards, his team are unerrated IMO.

Cruden is pushing Carter to 12, there is no more estimation than taking DC's position is there?

Wade again is a future superstar wrecking the AP but just a bit young, I wouldve taken him instead of Maitland though as a wildcard!!

The rest of your squad I agree with.

My team...

Gill - always great but just doesn't get the shirt for club or country!!!

Straus - World class

Wilson 0- Still can't beleive he's not Coles understudy

Kennedy

Hamilton - lets Grey get all the plaudits but is the driving force in Scotland

Baird - I know is not a 6 but he is one of the best flank options around (another blinder this morning despite loss) and I have to have Tipuric in the team

Tipuric - Has been the best 7 in the NH for over a year, but stunted by Warbs!

Delve - Constantly loved and becomes a folk hero at every club he plays for, yet noone outside the clubs he has played for really rates him!

Tanaka - had another blinder this morning, and never puts a foot wrong when I watch him, he should really oust Smith but won't!

Keatley/Biggar/Harris - All out of favour at int level, but their club form has been impeccable, and all probably deserve more int gametime.

Lamont - Never does anything wrong but he gets flack for everything wwrong with Scot back play

12 trees Doesn't do anything flashy but constantly makes those around him look good!

Inman - Rebels centre has been great this year, and outplayed AAC last week!!!

Tait - has been one of Englands most talented players who just doesn't have any luck at all, glad to see him playing well for Leicester and think he should be Englands option at FB!

Tim Rodber ...underated...

One of my favorite English players of all time. Tough as nails and a crackin player. Lions player...likewise as Rugby Fan mentioned Ben Clarke...harsh to say either of those were underrated.

Whenever there are "greatest ever 15's" Clarke and especially Rodber are always in the England XV discussion.

From a club point of view...Jamie Noon. Hated from an England fans point of view...but an absolute brick for us through the years.

Likewise...former wasps centre Fraser Waters was a huge part of Wasps success but was barely even spoke about...due to the "stars" taking the glory...

thebluesmancometh wrote:hamer25

I like that side but there are a few points I'd like to point out if thats ok...

Grant is just a bit young and inexperienced for the tour, he has shown immense potential though and should be Scotlands future of the front row!

SOB is an over rated player, as in he's a good ball carrier with a perceived super game that lends itself to a 7 shirt, he is therefore a limited 7 but perceived as better than he is. He could be a top class 6 or 8 though IMO.

Morgan is rated massively by all, and rightly so, but there is a lot of work behind the scenes to keep him fit and conditioned as there was to get him to pro standards, his team are unerrated IMO.

Cruden is pushing Carter to 12, there is no more estimation than taking DC's position is there?

Wade again is a future superstar wrecking the AP but just a bit young, I wouldve taken him instead of Maitland though as a wildcard!!

The rest of your squad I agree with.

My team...

Gill - always great but just doesn't get the shirt for club or country!!!

Straus - World class

Wilson 0- Still can't beleive he's not Coles understudy

Kennedy

Hamilton - lets Grey get all the plaudits but is the driving force in Scotland

Baird - I know is not a 6 but he is one of the best flank options around (another blinder this morning despite loss) and I have to have Tipuric in the team

Tipuric - Has been the best 7 in the NH for over a year, but stunted by Warbs!

Delve - Constantly loved and becomes a folk hero at every club he plays for, yet noone outside the clubs he has played for really rates him!

Tanaka - had another blinder this morning, and never puts a foot wrong when I watch him, he should really oust Smith but won't!

Keatley/Biggar/Harris - All out of favour at int level, but their club form has been impeccable, and all probably deserve more int gametime.

Lamont - Never does anything wrong but he gets flack for everything wwrong with Scot back play

12 trees Doesn't do anything flashy but constantly makes those around him look good!

Inman - Rebels centre has been great this year, and outplayed AAC last week!!!

Tait - has been one of Englands most talented players who just doesn't have any luck at all, glad to see him playing well for Leicester and think he should be Englands option at FB!

Yes you are right, Scarlet's done some great work with Ben with his conditioning. He is probably under best hands with Nigel. Really wish he was on the tour though. Did forget about Delve though

Absolutely loved Gareth archer as a player.
The swagger the aggression the whole attitude.
Wish he was just starting out now,could also play 8

Can you nominate a player with 71 caps and 2 Lions tests? My nomination is Simon Shaw. Had a great career, but should have had nearer 150 caps for England. He was a better player than the likes of Archer, Grewcock and Kaye for me

nlpnlp wrote:Can you nominate a player with 71 caps and 2 Lions tests? My nomination is Simon Shaw. Had a great career, but should have had nearer 150 caps for England. He was a better player than the likes of Archer, Grewcock and Kaye for me

Yep. May I also add another couple from Wasps

Fraser Waters & Alex King all 3 should have had more England caps.

Add Paul Volley to that list Trev, him and Waters were the heartbeat of that Wasps team for me.

On the original post, there were quite a few Bath players during that early 90s period who could have easily got a lot more caps. After all, as a team they were pretty successful.

Clarke and Rodber are still 2 of my favourite players, as someone mentioned above, if Clarke hadnt chased the money at Richmond, he may well have got more caps.

Dillaglio's emergance may have had something to do with Clarke not adding to his caps as well as his ill informed move to Richmond. Very good player mind, stand out in the 93 Lions tour. One of the few players whom the NZers at the time were overtly impressed with... i recall one commentator saying along the lines of "we'd keep Clarke if we could, the rest... not interested".

fa0019 wrote:Dillaglio's emergance may have had something to do with Clarke not adding to his caps as well as his ill informed move to Richmond. Very good player mind, stand out in the 93 Lions tour. One of the few players whom the NZers at the time were overtly impressed with... i recall one commentator saying along the lines of "we'd keep Clarke if we could, the rest... not interested".

Yet except for a shocking display by ref Kinsey in the first test, Lions may well have won the series.

fa0019 wrote:Dallaglio's emergance may have had something to do with Clarke not adding to his caps as well as his ill informed move to Richmond...

Interestingly, Dallaglio was due to join Clarke at Richmond but eventually backed out.

LondonTiger wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Dillaglio's emergance may have had something to do with Clarke not adding to his caps as well as his ill informed move to Richmond. Very good player mind, stand out in the 93 Lions tour. One of the few players whom the NZers at the time were overtly impressed with... i recall one commentator saying along the lines of "we'd keep Clarke if we could, the rest... not interested".

Yet except for a shocking display by ref Kinsey in the first test, Lions may well have won the series.

If they had though I think we would have seen a different NZ in the 2nd test mind... remember how they kicked us all over the park in the 3rd test, a AB under pressure due to a prior poor performance by their public's high standards is a different beast.

Will Carling was underated and seldom gets the credit he deserves for almost single handedly moving England forward

Wasn't Chilcott's lack of caps mainly due to him being banned for violence etc?

This chap would have stolen Bakkies lunch money every day had they grown up together.

First cap he beat up Farr-Jones and England left him alone for a few years to cool down? Lions 89 he was all set to play in the 2nd test and he got in another fight and spoilt his chances.

Stuart Abbott and Ollie Smith could have been a fantastic post-Greenwood centre partnership for England. Smith never got the caps he deserved though and eventually his career petered out before being ended by a horrible injury a couple of years ago.

I always thought Tim Stimpson was very good but got stuck behind Perry and then Lewsey.

thomh wrote:Stuart Abbott and Ollie Smith could have been a fantastic post-Greenwood centre partnership for England.

I've heard a few people say that but we'll just never know now.

I'm reminded of something Terry Wogan - yes, Terry Wogan - said when he was interviewed just before the 1987 England Five Nations match in Dublin. 27 year old Dave Cusani was making his debut at lock in that game, and Wogan said his situation illustrated a perennial problem for England. He thought that, if Cusani had been Irish, he'd have been given a run of games to find his feet because they didn't have a lot of players to choose from. He then probably would have developed as a useful Test lock. As an Englishman, though, he was being thrown into a game late in his career and would probably be quickly dropped if he couldn't shine immediately. Which is precisely what happened.

That was over twenty five years ago, but it's been the fate of more than a few players over the years. It's going to be the fate of some of our current crop of full backs because there just isn't room to give all of them a run while simultaneously creating a settled team environment.

I think you can add Dan luger to this list,great strike rate better than a lot of more heralded players.

How is Billy underrated? His boot and attacking skills see him regularly talked up and he has been promoted to the England first team. He gets the kudos he deserves. Now Anthony Allen or George Lowe are centres that rarely get the credit their due (Allen has six team mates with the Lions and still won players player, that tells you something).

Davey Wilson had a cracking final third of the season but Dan Cole has been delivering great performances for the last few years. Including dominating the looseheads of Clermont, Tolouse and Toulon in France, destroying a Welsh international loosehead to the point he was binned in the first half and has been a rock for an inexperienced English pack. Not that some competition and a genuinely good second option won't be a good thing. I'm looking forward to seeing what Wilson does in Argentina.

Underrated for me, Big Louis Deacon. Put him in a pack and it performs 10% better everytime. He does so much graft that the guys around him can focus on their game. Great in the tight exchanges and huge work rate. Doesn't really have the pace or carrying ability for a big international career but a good resource and top club player.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Underrated for me, Big Louis Deacon. Put him in a pack and it performs 10% better everytime. He does so much graft that the guys around him can focus on their game. Great in the tight exchanges and huge work rate. Doesn't really have the pace or carrying ability for a big international career but a good resource and top club player.

The problem is that the 10% figure depends on who he's replacing, and I think people always saw him as a downgrade on Shaw. A lot of these players played in a similar era to one of the greats of their position. Rodber, for example, was amazing for England, but because he was followed immediately by the world cup winning back row his name doesn't get mentioned nearly as much as he deserves. Similarly, Deacon was a good player for England who improved the pack, but because people judged him relative to Simon Shaw's 2009 form, he never got enough credit.

Mr Bounce wrote:Which International players do you think never quite got the recognition they deserved? Were they always playing in the shadow or a more illustrious team-mate? Were they never given many caps because of coaches having their favourites? Did they get loads of caps but were never talked about? Or did you just like the way they played? Put together an XV from the country you support - I reckon there could be a few surprises.

1. Gareth Chilcott. Hard as nails but only amassed 14 caps. A real character.
2. Graham Dawe. Always on the bench because of Mr Moore. No shame there.
3. Darren Garforth. 1/3 of the infamous ABC club; had to vye with Leonard, Vickery & Ubogu for International honours. Should have had more caps than his 25.
4. Garath Archer. Solid guy. Unlucky enough to play in the same era as Johnson & Grewcock who took the majority of caps.
5. Nigel Redman. Short-ish for a lock, but never ever let anyone down. Toured with the Lions in 97 who realised his worth.
6. Ben Clarke. Great, great player; could play anywhere in the back row and always did a fine job; nobody talks about him. If he was 10 years younger he'd be mentioned in the same way as Hill, Back & Dallaglio.
7. Magnus Lund. So much potential. Such a pity it was never realised. Still only 29!
8. Tim Rodber. One of the finest & most gentlemanly 8s this country has produced. Largely forgotten which is a pity. He would be my Captain.
9. Kyran Bracken. Fierce rivalry with Dawson. Although a World Cup Winner, never seemed to quite hit the same heights.
10. Stuart Barnes. Never given the chance to shine due to England's obsession with safe playing Andrew & his goalkicking prowess. Shame.
11. Adedayo Adebayo. Quick & Elusive. Deserved to get way more than his 6 caps.
12. Simon Halliday. Carling was always preferred, even when he was off form. I though Simon got a rum deal.
13. Nick Greenstock. A big lump of a centre; unfortunately was around at the time of a certain Will Greenwood & the strange obsession with Phil DeGlanville.
14. David Rees. Seen as too small but stupidly quick and very effective. Ask Jonah!
15. Paul Hull. Also a bit of a small guy but seemed to glide around the field. I just liked him as he seemed a bit of an underdog!

Vicotr Ubogu ,MUST be in there....under rated but not under fed

Ubogu couldn't scrummage to save his life though, great in the loose but England took 3 years to realise this... and that was with a coach who knew his game in and out (Rowell was his club coach prior) and by then the game had changed.

Loose play for a prop is a luxury. He has to be able to do his primary function first... if not they are nothing more than a bench option.

According to Moore's autobiography, Cooke and Uttley looked at the size of Phil Kearns, compared him to Brian Moore and considered turning Ubogu into a hooker. That he was unable to throw (apparently so poor he made Hibbard and Youngs look like Phil Taylor on the oche), could not lift his foot to hook and virtually cried during scrummage practice dissuaded them from this idea.

Heard he had quite a confidence problem too... something like Carling had every player in the team send him a note about what he did good prior to his first cap as he was rather unsure of himself.

In some ways I imagine your first cap is rather daunting especially if as a prop you're not a renowned scrummager.... then again I doubt they ever looked at Jonno and thought he needed a bunch of kind notes to build his confidence before his first cap... on reading them he probably would have given Deano et al a wedgie and said stop being such a bunch of jessies.

fa0019 wrote:Heard he had quite a confidence problem too... something like Carling had every player in the team send him a note about what he did good prior to his first cap as he was rather unsure of himself.

In some ways I imagine your first cap is rather daunting especially if as a prop you're not a renowned scrummager.... then again I doubt they ever looked at Jonno and thought he needed a bunch of kind notes to build his confidence before his first cap... on reading them he probably would have given Deano et al a wedgie and said stop being such a bunch of jessies.

i heard that too, sensitive fellow. yet i met him in HK and frankly he came across as just very full of himself