Team selection: First Lions match in Aus

First topic message reminder :

Gatland states that the first 3 games will see every tourist getting a start on rotation. It means that speculation about test preferences based on selection is put aside for that period and gives Gatland the chance to see who is hungry and look at combinations, mix them up to give him maximum flexibility come test week.

Based on what i saw this weekend some players have squandered opportunities and others have pencilled their names in. POC was immense as was Philipps and Roberts; their Lions pedigree shone. The likes of Farrell have done themselves no favours and his liability at 10 is obvious....for me Hibbard and Lydiate needed a huge game. Maitland will be annoyed with himself but remains my bolter.

For the next game it is imperative Sam starts and if he doesn't then i think questions about his worth to the squad need to be asked. This is the team i want to see on Wednesday

Healy
Youngs
Cole
Evans
AWJ
Croft
Sam
Heaslip
Youngs
Sexton
North
Manu
BOD
Bowe
Half

The only other player with real history is Tuilagi, but good luck to whoever picks a fight with him!

I love all this fighting talk. It always makes the first few minutes after kick off that extra bit juicy.

There are a few players who I think the Force will try to antagonise, Farrell being at the top of that list.

I'm looking for some big performances in terms of physicality this game- Healy, O'Brien, AWJ, and Evans. Hoping Croft will bring his late season-ending form to the international stage and run some beautiful support lines as well as continue his good breakdown work.

optimist wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well they said his knee problem flared up because of the long haul flight to Honk Kong, so I can't imagine a long hall flight to Aus will have done him much good either!

My wife's never played rugby but, aged 70, she had never flown before visiting Australia for a wedding in April. She went economy class, so unlike the Lions, she had no bed for the 25 hours' flight each way, but unlike Warburton experienced no ensuing health problems either. I recall Seb Coe in his running days saying he had withdrawn from a race because he had a snuffle in the nose which would reduce his performance by about 1%!

Wiki says it was glandular fever, not quite "a snuffle in the nose". As the story below shows, Seb Coe wouldn't have dropped out for a minor cold, though having had a cold for a week recently and doing some LD running on it, it automatically reduces your running ability by quite a lot. Turns out the ability to breathe is quite helpful

"It was a harsh winter but I ran 12 miles on Christmas morning. It was a hard session and I got home, showered and felt pretty happy with what I had done.

Later that afternoon, sitting back after Christmas lunch, I began to feel uneasy but was not quite sure why. Suddenly it dawned on me. I thought: "I bet [Steve] Ovett's out there doing his second training session of the day." I put the kit back on, faced the snow and ice and did a second training session. I ran several miles, including some hill work.

Not long ago, over supper in Melbourne, I told him the story. He laughed. 'Did you only go out twice that day?' he asked."

Why not Madigan who can cover 10, 12 and 15, his goalkicking percentage is in the 90s, he scored the second most amount of tries in the Rabo this year behind Visser I think and is in red hot form at the moment.

Gatland would be foolish to overlook him

I would have loved to have seen either Zebo or Wade or both ,on the tour to give us another option in our attack. There is just not enough variety in our backs imo.

If plan A doesn't work, I really do fear for our chances.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I would have loved to have seen either Zebo or Wade or both ,on the tour to give us another option in our attack. There is just not enough variety in our backs imo.

If plan A doesn't work, I really do fear for our chances.

Agreed. No one in the squad can really open out the game as opposed to run over lads. Croft is perhaps the exception here.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why not Madigan who can cover 10, 12 and 15, his goalkicking percentage is in the 90s, he scored the second most amount of tries in the Rabo this year behind Visser I think and is in red hot form at the moment.

Gatland would be foolish to overlook him

I'd love to see Madigan join up with the Lions, with all those big physical players in the backline, someone like Madigan could work wonders. I'd be very surprised to see it happen though. Prepare for Wilkinson.

Hogg and 1/2P aren’t exactly renowned for their bulldozing work, and Bowe is a really classy winger too – I’m not too concerned in that department.

Yes there aren’t many ballet dancers in the forwards but that’s not what they’re there for!

Afternoon Campers

I like that side almost picked itself but looks pretty balanced, a good bench and credit that he has shown confidence and support to Farrell (covering Flyhalf/Centre) and Maitland (covering Wing/FB.

My only two issues is that Gatland I cannae see Manu as a 12, and BOD whilst no slouch is more suited to I/C out of the two of them as in my mid he has better awareness, ball skills, and distribution whilst Manu has the brawn and better speed that's suited to O/C.....so it seems a strange selection. Also He knows how the AWJ/Evans partnership works hence I would have liked to see AWJ/Parling starting.

But pretty good call Mr G

flyhalffactory wrote:Afternoon Campers

I like that side almost picked itself but looks pretty balanced, a good bench and credit that he has shown confidence and support to Farrell (covering Flyhalf/Centre) and Maitland (covering Wing/FB.

My only two issues is that Gatland I cannae see Manu as a 12, and BOD whilst no slouch is more suited to I/C out of the two of them as in my mid he has better awareness, ball skills, and distribution whilst Manu has the brawn and better speed that's suited to O/C.....so it seems a strange selection. Also He knows how the AWJ/Evans partnership works hence I would have liked to see AWJ/Parling starting.

But pretty good call Mr G

Not disagreeing with you, but I think this just emphasisies how Gats is looking to play the game on this tour. Big hard running centre at 12, cleverer player at 13. So this is Manu's chance to see if he can perform in a similar way to Roberts.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I would have loved to have seen either Zebo or Wade or both ,on the tour to give us another option in our attack. There is just not enough variety in our backs imo.

If plan A doesn't work, I really do fear for our chances.

I have read this from you on a few occasions now and for the life of me I cannae understand what you mean

15 1/2p.... Hogg.... Kearney - Different styles indeed
14 Cuthbert..... Maitland - Different style Maitland likes to operate deep and uses his side-step and acceleration, Cuthbert is an out-and-out winger
11 North......... Bowe - similar as both like to come inside as the extra midfield

12
Roberts strong and direct is always going to take 2-3 men out providing gaps for the O/C,
Davies marvellous balance, redistributes, and fantastic acceleration and long-haul speed,
Manu looks for the gap with speed and brawn,
BOD well he can play and has probably plans A, B, C and D in his head all at once

13
Davies give him the gap and he will score the try
BOD defensive giant, and all the experience
Manu speed merchant and aggressive

In my mind it will all depend on fast distribution from the half backs hence the massive importance of the front 5, and who plays blindside, if we gain advantage of that area then it will provide Phillips (or A N Other) that few seconds to decide on the passage of play, and give Sexton the options to decide.

If you are attempting to suggest we need a twinkling toes, risk taker as a 12 then Gatland won't play that way he has tried it with Hook at 10 and at 12 with Wales and it just don't work. But its not to say that we haven't got players who can switch to a plan B or C if needed.

So let me get this straight, Cuthbert, Bowe, Maitland, Hogg and 1/2p, similar to BOD and Davies?

LondonTiger wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Afternoon Campers

I like that side almost picked itself but looks pretty balanced, a good bench and credit that he has shown confidence and support to Farrell (covering Flyhalf/Centre) and Maitland (covering Wing/FB.

My only two issues is that Gatland I cannae see Manu as a 12, and BOD whilst no slouch is more suited to I/C out of the two of them as in my mid he has better awareness, ball skills, and distribution whilst Manu has the brawn and better speed that's suited to O/C.....so it seems a strange selection. Also He knows how the AWJ/Evans partnership works hence I would have liked to see AWJ/Parling starting.

But pretty good call Mr G

Not disagreeing with you, but I think this just emphasisies how Gats is looking to play the game on this tour. Big hard running centre at 12, cleverer player at 13. So this is Manu's chance to see if he can perform in a similar way to Roberts.

Agree with you Tiger

Gatland has played that way for the last 4 years with Roberts at 12 and gotta give credit it has worked in the NH games, but not against SH opponents. I for one don't agree with this style of midfield play.......... if we changed to left/right then maybe it might but I think it will be unfair on Manu and wont utilise his strengths unless he gets rapid service from the 9/10 axis

Let's give Manu a chance to injure a few cocky Perth boys first before we criticise him. I saw him pass the ball once. On purpose, too.

flyhalffactory wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Afternoon Campers

I like that side almost picked itself but looks pretty balanced, a good bench and credit that he has shown confidence and support to Farrell (covering Flyhalf/Centre) and Maitland (covering Wing/FB.

My only two issues is that Gatland I cannae see Manu as a 12, and BOD whilst no slouch is more suited to I/C out of the two of them as in my mid he has better awareness, ball skills, and distribution whilst Manu has the brawn and better speed that's suited to O/C.....so it seems a strange selection. Also He knows how the AWJ/Evans partnership works hence I would have liked to see AWJ/Parling starting.

But pretty good call Mr G

Not disagreeing with you, but I think this just emphasisies how Gats is looking to play the game on this tour. Big hard running centre at 12, cleverer player at 13. So this is Manu's chance to see if he can perform in a similar way to Roberts.

Agree with you Tiger

Gatland has played that way for the last 4 years with Roberts at 12 and gotta give credit it has worked in the NH games, but not against SH opponents. I for one don't agree with this style of midfield play.......... if we changed to left/right then maybe it might but I think it will be unfair on Manu and wont utilise his strengths unless he gets rapid service from the 9/10 axis

Roberts most succesfull carries come against Australia, what are you talking about? Pocock has been the thorn in Wales side in recent years, especially as the 12 carries gets so far over the gameline, he used to drop in behind and use the tight 5 to obstruct support runners.

George Carlin wrote:Let's give Manu a chance to injure a few cocky Perth boys first before we criticise him. I saw him pass the ball once. On purpose, too.

Savour that memory. You may not see it again

If it's Kyle Godwin facing off against Manu, then I feel for him a little - he'll be giving away at least 3 stones to Tualagi.

The force have a SR match on the 9th.... I can't see them playing their first team against the Lions... more likely they will field kids.

Could be quite a scoreline. The odd blowout is good but in the longrun it does us no favours.

fa0019 wrote:The force have a SR match on the 9th.... I can't see them playing their first team against the Lions... more likely they will field kids.

Could be quite a scoreline. The odd blowout is good but in the longrun it does us no favours.

I hope not, and frankly I don't think they will either. All the talk is once in a lifetime stuff, the opportunity to impress, and well there are still 6 Aus slots to fill.

The Force minus international players are probably one of the lions biggest tests IMO, I really hope they put out the kind of side that will test this lions team, because lets be honest it is a first run out for many, will be disjointed and there are a few unbalanced units, similarly to the Barbs game the first 20/30 mins the Force would really fancy being in the game and taking the lead.

I saw something the other day about measurements used by the guys making the suits for the Lions. Manu had the biggest collar at 20.5 inches

The other numbers was Adam Jones chest 51.5 and Grey inside leg - 37 inches

George Carlin wrote:If it's Kyle Godwin facing off against Manu, then I feel for him a little - he'll be giving away at least 3 stones to Tualagi.

I want to see how he deals with that because I think he's a future Wallaby. Whilst Manu has size and power, Godwin has great skills, vision and an eye for the gap.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The force have a SR match on the 9th.... I can't see them playing their first team against the Lions... more likely they will field kids.

Could be quite a scoreline. The odd blowout is good but in the longrun it does us no favours.

I hope not, and frankly I don't think they will either. All the talk is once in a lifetime stuff, the opportunity to impress, and well there are still 6 Aus slots to fill.

The Force minus international players are probably one of the lions biggest tests IMO, I really hope they put out the kind of side that will test this lions team, because lets be honest it is a first run out for many, will be disjointed and there are a few unbalanced units, similarly to the Barbs game the first 20/30 mins the Force would really fancy being in the game and taking the lead.

None of those force players will come in the reckoning though. Nick Cummins is their only test player and he is already in the squad and won't feature.

The question is .... will the coach prioritise the Lions match over SR derby 4 days later??? I'm not so sure he will.

Can't see the Lions ever losing this match... this is the team that lost to the Kings afterall. They haven't been beaten around the park too much this season but are pretty toothless in attack. I could see the lions equalling the baabaas scoreline to be honest given its unlikely a first team will be selected.

fa0019 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The force have a SR match on the 9th.... I can't see them playing their first team against the Lions... more likely they will field kids.

Could be quite a scoreline. The odd blowout is good but in the longrun it does us no favours.

I hope not, and frankly I don't think they will either. All the talk is once in a lifetime stuff, the opportunity to impress, and well there are still 6 Aus slots to fill.

The Force minus international players are probably one of the lions biggest tests IMO, I really hope they put out the kind of side that will test this lions team, because lets be honest it is a first run out for many, will be disjointed and there are a few unbalanced units, similarly to the Barbs game the first 20/30 mins the Force would really fancy being in the game and taking the lead.

None of those force players will come in the reckoning though. Nick Cummins is their only test player and he is already in the squad and won't feature.

The question is .... will the coach prioritise the Lions match over SR derby 4 days later??? I'm not so sure he will.

Can't see the Lions ever losing this match... this is the team that lost to the Kings afterall. They haven't been beaten around the park too much this season but are pretty toothless in attack. I could see the lions equalling the baabaas scoreline to be honest given its unlikely a first team will be selected.

I'm not so sure, you might of course be right, but what exactly are the Force playing for this season? The only issue they have is to stay off bottom and to finish above Rebels, the personal rewards for stifling the lions and gaining a pretty famous W are far greater than taking the risk of losing to a superior super team Sunday don't you think?

I personally would role the dice, would you?

It would be a good example for rugby if the coach put his best side out... I imagine they will be a little conservative though. They have to be responsible to their league commitments, their paymasters will demand it.

Hoping for a good match.. the lions side looks very good too.

fa0019 wrote:It would be a good example for rugby if the coach put his best side out... I imagine they will be a little conservative though. They have to be responsible to their league commitments, their paymasters will demand it.

Hoping for a good match.. the lions side looks very good too.

But thats my point, there is nothing to play for this season, the club will receive little if any reward by finishing with an extra 4 points (or more likely 1LBP), surely a famous win over the lions would help the club more?

Plus I think the lions look a touch unbalanced, and will rpobably start similar to last saturday slow and disjointed. IMO Force first up stand the best chance of catching the lions cold, and they lose very few (is Cummins the only one?) int players. They also perform far greater when they are massive underdogs.

I don't think any of the pre test games will be up to much. I reckon the Lions are worth a lot of money to Aus/NZ/SA. Surely we could demand first choice teams in the tour matches. It would make the tour much better to watch.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I don't think any of the pre test games will be up to much. I reckon the Lions are worth a lot of money to Aus/NZ/SA. Surely we could demand first choice teams in the tour matches. It would make the tour much better to watch.

Apparently the home side pockets 80% of the TV revenue (I read an article last week suggesting the Lions should try for a bigger slice once the current deal with SANZAR runs out) - however the broadcasters may figure the viewing numbers won't change much either way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22750312

Leigh Halfpenny, Tommy Bowe, Brian O'Driscoll (captain), Manu Tuilagi, George North, Jonny Sexton; Conor Murray; Cian Healy, Rory Best, Dan Cole, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Tom Croft, Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip.
Replacements: Tom Youngs, Mako Vunipola, Matt Stevens, Geoff Parling, Toby Faletau, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, Sean Maitland.

Good looking side.I thought Ben Youngs may start. It will interesting to see how BOD & Manu T get on in the centres.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why not Madigan who can cover 10, 12 and 15, his goalkicking percentage is in the 90s, he scored the second most amount of tries in the Rabo this year behind Visser I think and is in red hot form at the moment.

Gatland would be foolish to overlook him

Madigan scored 6 tries this season which is just over half of vissers total and behind the likes of trimble, north, barbieri, Van der merwe etc.

His kicking percentage is about 86% which is still bloody brilliant but he has yet to start a game for Ireland (something which I hope is rectified next weekend). Madigan has excelled at Rabo level but still has limited HEC starts. We are putting the cart before the horse with this young lad. Leave him alone to develop along with Ireland's next generation.

Rmours on twitter that Mike Brown is next inline to fill in for Kearney as his injury isn't looking good.

Just rumours though at the moment.

Makes sense though as playing style they're pretty much like for like and Brown will probably only have to hold tackle bags anyway.

yappysnap wrote:Rmours on twitter that Mike Brown is next inline to fill in for Kearney as his injury isn't looking good.

Just rumours though at the moment.

Makes sense though as playing style they're pretty much like for like and Brown will probably only have to hold tackle bags anyway.

That wouldn't be a bad swap, Kearney never really had time to get over his injury and was near 3rd choice, Brown will come in and do similar, although if he goes anywahere near the wing we have a problem!

My first option would be for Byrne, out and out FB and Hogg and 1/2p can both play elsewhere.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Rmours on twitter that Mike Brown is next inline to fill in for Kearney as his injury isn't looking good.

Just rumours though at the moment.

Makes sense though as playing style they're pretty much like for like and Brown will probably only have to hold tackle bags anyway.

That wouldn't be a bad swap, Kearney never really had time to get over his injury and was near 3rd choice, Brown will come in and do similar, although if he goes anywahere near the wing we have a problem!

My first option would be for Byrne, out and out FB and Hogg and 1/2p can both play elsewhere.

Byrne would be a great like for like replacement, and is in great form

Don't think Gatland is a big fan though, and he might be reluctant to call up another welshman and be vilified in the English press.

wales606 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Rmours on twitter that Mike Brown is next inline to fill in for Kearney as his injury isn't looking good.

Just rumours though at the moment.

Makes sense though as playing style they're pretty much like for like and Brown will probably only have to hold tackle bags anyway.

That wouldn't be a bad swap, Kearney never really had time to get over his injury and was near 3rd choice, Brown will come in and do similar, although if he goes anywahere near the wing we have a problem!

My first option would be for Byrne, out and out FB and Hogg and 1/2p can both play elsewhere.

Byrne would be a great like for like replacement, and is in great form

Don't think Gatland is a big fan though, and he might be reluctant to call up another welshman and be vilified in the English press.

Ye, you could see why Brown would be the easier option, not a bad replacement though, as long as it's at FB!

Brown would be fine fr midweek games.It is just at International level that he struggles!
Madigan would be my call but I feel a Wilko moment to get the English press all of a quiver.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Brown would be fine fr midweek games.It is just at International level that he struggles!
Madigan would be my call but I feel a Wilko moment to get the English press all of a quiver.

Have you seen him play FB at International level?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Afternoon Campers

I like that side almost picked itself but looks pretty balanced, a good bench and credit that he has shown confidence and support to Farrell (covering Flyhalf/Centre) and Maitland (covering Wing/FB.

My only two issues is that Gatland I cannae see Manu as a 12, and BOD whilst no slouch is more suited to I/C out of the two of them as in my mid he has better awareness, ball skills, and distribution whilst Manu has the brawn and better speed that's suited to O/C.....so it seems a strange selection. Also He knows how the AWJ/Evans partnership works hence I would have liked to see AWJ/Parling starting.

But pretty good call Mr G

Not disagreeing with you, but I think this just emphasisies how Gats is looking to play the game on this tour. Big hard running centre at 12, cleverer player at 13. So this is Manu's chance to see if he can perform in a similar way to Roberts.

Agree with you Tiger

Gatland has played that way for the last 4 years with Roberts at 12 and gotta give credit it has worked in the NH games, but not against SH opponents. I for one don't agree with this style of midfield play.......... if we changed to left/right then maybe it might but I think it will be unfair on Manu and wont utilise his strengths unless he gets rapid service from the 9/10 axis

Roberts most succesfull carries come against Australia, what are you talking about? Pocock has been the thorn in Wales side in recent years, especially as the 12 carries gets so far over the gameline, he used to drop in behind and use the tight 5 to obstruct support runners.

Bluesman
I haven't the stats (not that I would use ESPN anyway)............. but are you sure?..... if so where did you get your data?.

If I would hazard a guess Roberts role as the I/C against any of the SH sides wasn't as effective (and its not just about ball carrying) as the games against NH sides with the exception of the game in NZ against the All Blacks with Foxy Davies, but unless I dig and delve into the history of Roberts gameplay I will have to rely on your better knowledge of the welsh players (and to be honest just cant be asked altho I do know an anorak who could provide me with the most accurate data available).

Against Australia I believe it would be much better to have a creative albeit slower I/C with fast distribution from the half-backs with the 10 looping between 12 and 13, and a very fast direct O/C. Gatland favours a big 12 who will take out 2-3 players and then many phases of play and redistribution using fitness to wear down the opponents. It most certainly didn't work last summer as the Aussies copied the French and used the drift defence and created turnovers amongst the Welsh forwards. I certainly cannae remember Roberts doing anything except run and Davies following up to ruck out..... kinda easy to deal with on the whole if you can slow down the 1st phase.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

wales606 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Rmours on twitter that Mike Brown is next inline to fill in for Kearney as his injury isn't looking good.

Just rumours though at the moment.

Makes sense though as playing style they're pretty much like for like and Brown will probably only have to hold tackle bags anyway.

That wouldn't be a bad swap, Kearney never really had time to get over his injury and was near 3rd choice, Brown will come in and do similar, although if he goes anywahere near the wing we have a problem!

My first option would be for Byrne, out and out FB and Hogg and 1/2p can both play elsewhere.

Byrne would be a great like for like replacement, and is in great form

Don't think Gatland is a big fan though, and he might be reluctant to call up another welshman and be vilified in the English press.

Ye, you could see why Brown would be the easier option, not a bad replacement though, as long as it's at FB!

Well we have to have the best options and Byrne is most certainly the best available FB and on great form.

Roberts didn't tour to Aus last summer, one of the reasons our defence lacked steel.

Roberts is most dangerous however on harder grounds, and whenever he's played any of the SH in the last few years his carrying has been a constant threat and defence has shored us up massively, he basically marshalls RP.

The problem with swapping Roberts with a distributor is you still need someone to run the lines to stik defenders, if BOD plays 12 then Davies has to come from wider allowing the defence to leave him to the back row and drift out wide, Roberts changes his angle of running from out to in Making the pack deal with him and in to out making the 10/12 deal with him, BOD or Davies would command nowhere near as much respect and could be dealt with 1 on 1 allowing numbers to go wider.

See it's all the chess game and Roberts is the biggest baddest peice on the board, if nothing else his name alone on the team sheet will force Aus to either hide Cooper in the wider channels or play a bigger defencive option at 12 (horne or Barnes) both of which will comprimise attacking style and help the Lions. Not to mention the flankers will have to fly out off every set peice allowing for less set peice cohesion, and making the tight 5 vulnerable.

Roberts loves playing against SH teams trust me!

I do trust you Bluesman, but not with my mars bar though.

I am not entirely convinced with your argument, but based on Roberts was man of the series last time (was he 12 or 13 then? cant remember now), and your convincing call I will go with your analysis.............. and sleep easier tonight.

Based on your call then Manu will be effective at I/C as I can see Mr G employing him in the same way.

Cheers buddy

flyhalffactory wrote:I do trust you Bluesman, but not with my mars bar though.

I am not entirely convinced with your argument, but based on Roberts was man of the series last time (was he 12 or 13 then? cant remember now), and your convincing call I will go with your analysis.............. and sleep easier tonight.

Based on your call then Manu will be effective at I/C as I can see Mr G employing him in the same way.

Cheers buddy

I think Tuilagi will be succesfull at I/C, but as with Roberts 2009 the centre will swap massively, both runners will hit lines inside and outsied the 10, and inside and outside the 13, it's almost as if the position only means anything defencively, going forward they are mere strike runners from differing angles...

That said, will Tuilagi enjoy going into the tighter exchanges where the possibility of knocking the tackler down and going in from 40 yards will be minimal, it'll take a lot of focus from the guy.

I do worry though for the team that contains Healy, Best, Stevens, Evans, Phillips, Tuilagi Farell, and BOD, there are plenty of penalty machines there and tempers to boot.

It's probably right that Gatland prefers a wrecking ball 12. It makes it all the more puzzling, then, if he really is considering Wilkinson as an option at 10, since the Englishman is much better with a playmaker outside him. I

thebluesmancometh wrote:Roberts didn't tour to Aus last summer, one of the reasons our defence lacked steel.

Roberts is most dangerous however on harder grounds, and whenever he's played any of the SH in the last few years his carrying has been a constant threat and defence has shored us up massively, he basically marshalls RP.

The problem with swapping Roberts with a distributor is you still need someone to run the lines to stik defenders, if BOD plays 12 then Davies has to come from wider allowing the defence to leave him to the back row and drift out wide, Roberts changes his angle of running from out to in Making the pack deal with him and in to out making the 10/12 deal with him, BOD or Davies would command nowhere near as much respect and could be dealt with 1 on 1 allowing numbers to go wider.

See it's all the chess game and Roberts is the biggest baddest peice on the board, if nothing else his name alone on the team sheet will force Aus to either hide Cooper in the wider channels or play a bigger defencive option at 12 (horne or Barnes) both of which will comprimise attacking style and help the Lions. Not to mention the flankers will have to fly out off every set peice allowing for less set peice cohesion, and making the tight 5 vulnerable.

Roberts loves playing against SH teams trust me!

Agree entirely bluesman, a form Roberts would have made some diff last year bu tI am not sure it would have changed the results.

Pretty pleased with my selection for wednesday v the selection gatland has gone for....
Healy
Youngs
Cole
Evans
AWJ
Croft
Sam
Heaslip
Youngs
Sexton
North
Manu
BOD
Bowe
Half

Manu offers as much impact as Roberts and i think more footwork so we can expect to see some fireworks at 12 and 13 if they gel...its a helluva team and should be a rout. But against the Aussies i hope there is more up the sleeve than battering the 12/13 channel...the aussies will lap it up

Expect a huge show from Best with a point to prove. Scrummage and lineout should be superb if Youngs throwing is good. The backrow is mighty and can't wait to see if Croft's Lion pedigree will tell...Sam must play the next game and Kearney must be praying hard right now. Cracking set of power and guile backs. Youngs B needs to have a corker

Manu vs Roberts could be one of the big calls of the tour, along with Croft vs Lydiate. This selection indicates that they don't see O'Driscoll at 12 as a realistic test option if they'd rather shift Manu inside, so he's is going to have to adapt fast to playing there, especially as Roberts and BOD have their 2009 partnership on record. If he doesn't make the starting team then he's an obvious choice for the 23 shirt I'd guess.

I think we could see quite a few England players on the test bench rather than starting. The first 50 minutes of the tests will be brutal, and Vunipola, Youngs, Cole, other Youngs and Tuilagi are not players that Australia would be happy to see coming on fresh for the last 20-30.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Brown would be fine fr midweek games.It is just at International level that he struggles!
Madigan would be my call but I feel a Wilko moment to get the English press all of a quiver.

Have you seen him play FB at International level?

Yes.
As versatile cover he is limited.I have seen him play wing at International level too.Did you catch any games?

thomh wrote:Manu vs Roberts could be one of the big calls of the tour, along with Croft vs Lydiate. This selection indicates that they don't see O'Driscoll at 12 as a realistic test option if they'd rather shift Manu inside, so he's is going to have to adapt fast to playing there, especially as Roberts and BOD have their 2009 partnership on record.

I don't think Manu will have to adjust too much at all really, he has to be patient more ball in hand, and only look for the offload on rare occasions, and play more for the team with regards to running crash lines, but defencively he can switch back to 13.
In reality though it's going to take some effort to remove Roberts from Gatlands view of exactly how a 12 is suppose to play.

Brown has only played one game at full back for England since 2008, and since he has never once played wing for Quins that I can remember I don't think it's fair to judge him on his performances there at international level.

Having said that, he's done alright there for England anyway.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

thomh wrote:Manu vs Roberts could be one of the big calls of the tour, along with Croft vs Lydiate. This selection indicates that they don't see O'Driscoll at 12 as a realistic test option if they'd rather shift Manu inside, so he's is going to have to adapt fast to playing there, especially as Roberts and BOD have their 2009 partnership on record.

I don't think Manu will have to adjust too much at all really, he has to be patient more ball in hand, and only look for the offload on rare occasions, and play more for the team with regards to running crash lines, but defencively he can switch back to 13.
In reality though it's going to take some effort to remove Roberts from Gatlands view of exactly how a 12 is suppose to play.

He's never been quite as effective at 12 for Leicester though, which is something to bear in mind. I'm not sure what you mean by the bit in bold -could you clarify? People criticise him for only crashing the ball up, and for England he seems to spend a frustrating amount of time as a decoy runner and clearing out rucks when he should be getting the ball in hand.

thomh wrote:Brown has only played one game at full back for England since 2008, and since he has never once played wing for Quins that I can remember I don't think it's fair to judge him on his performances there at international level.

Having said that, he's done alright there for England anyway.

Hope England stick with him on the wing against us next year.

thomh wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

thomh wrote:Manu vs Roberts could be one of the big calls of the tour, along with Croft vs Lydiate. This selection indicates that they don't see O'Driscoll at 12 as a realistic test option if they'd rather shift Manu inside, so he's is going to have to adapt fast to playing there, especially as Roberts and BOD have their 2009 partnership on record.

I don't think Manu will have to adjust too much at all really, he has to be patient more ball in hand, and only look for the offload on rare occasions, and play more for the team with regards to running crash lines, but defencively he can switch back to 13.
In reality though it's going to take some effort to remove Roberts from Gatlands view of exactly how a 12 is suppose to play.

He's never been quite as effective at 12 for Leicester though, which is something to bear in mind. I'm not sure what you mean by the bit in bold -could you clarify? People criticise him for only crashing the ball up, and for England he seems to spend a frustrating amount of time as a decoy runner and clearing out rucks when he should be getting the ball in hand.

I meant in more dummy lines terms mate, he'll get plenty of chances to piledrive down the 10 channell, but he'll also have to look convincing when the balls not coming his way. One attribute Roberts gets no praise for IMO, no matter how many times, how tired and how obvious he is he always gives the impression of the ball coming his way, and every defender within the area instinctively hesitates just in case. Will Tuilagi have the focus and ability to make his lines convincing? It can be a frustrating job at times, but for me one of the most vital for a backline to get any sort of space in the wider channells