Team selection: First Lions match in Aus

First topic message reminder :

Gatland states that the first 3 games will see every tourist getting a start on rotation. It means that speculation about test preferences based on selection is put aside for that period and gives Gatland the chance to see who is hungry and look at combinations, mix them up to give him maximum flexibility come test week.

Based on what i saw this weekend some players have squandered opportunities and others have pencilled their names in. POC was immense as was Philipps and Roberts; their Lions pedigree shone. The likes of Farrell have done themselves no favours and his liability at 10 is obvious....for me Hibbard and Lydiate needed a huge game. Maitland will be annoyed with himself but remains my bolter.

For the next game it is imperative Sam starts and if he doesn't then i think questions about his worth to the squad need to be asked. This is the team i want to see on Wednesday

Healy
Youngs
Cole
Evans
AWJ
Croft
Sam
Heaslip
Youngs
Sexton
North
Manu
BOD
Bowe
Half

I agree with your back row Stag but defensively around the fringes we were a little suspect today and Australia would have looked to pounce there. Lots of options, we just have to see what type of game Gats wants to play from the back row.

I thought Heaslip had a very poor 6Ns but he looked fantastic today. A great blend of tight and loose work. Mako has come on leaps and bounds, I've not been convinced by his tight carrying or scrummaging before but it seems to be clicking for him today, he looked excellent. Although I hope Healy is ok.

The locks looked a step down from POC and Gray, Croft to me is still a luxury player, as excellent as he is, I want the backrow to focus on the tight. I think we may end up with Tipuric, Warbs and Faletau. Looks a bit wonky to me, with a lack of carriers, but could work. I'd have no probs with Lydiate, SOB or Heaslip starting though.

Sexton at 10. Not sure about 9 but I guess Phillips is in pole position. Actually Ruby Guby's team is pretty close to mine I think.

How good was Heaslip today? (I didn't see the match.) I thought Faletau had a damn good game on Saturday, in tough conditions.

red_stag wrote:06 Warburton
07 Tipuric
08 Heaslip

To me this is by fare the best balanced backrow. I really want to at least see it in a warm up game. I fear that the Lions coaches won't move Warburton like that though.

RubyGubys team is pretty spot on IMO but some tight calls all around.

I'd have no problem with that back row, a little light on carrying but not bad.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:How good was Heaslip today? I didn't see the match, but I thought Faletau had a damn good gamn on Saturday, in tough conditions.

Very similar performance, both carried well in the wider channells, Heaslip beat a lot of players first up (but then so did many) if you listen to a certain few players he is the messiah.

Although he contributed little to the breakdown, left the tight work to AWJ, Cole and Best and defencively stuck around in the wider channells at times.

He played ok, but it was all ball in hand, similar to Croft and SOB, so the tight 5 paid the price for the back row not getting involved anywhere near enough on the ground or in the tight.

red_stag wrote:06 Warburton
07 Tipuric
08 Heaslip

To me this is by fare the best balanced backrow. I really want to at least see it in a warm up game. I fear that the Lions coaches won't move Warburton like that though.

RubyGubys team is pretty spot on IMO but some tight calls all around.

Surely it would be more balanced with a 6 like Lydiate or O'Brien playing at 6.

Falateau, Warburton and Tipuric showed up well against a decent England team a couple of months ago so we shouldn't rule out Gatland going with that or Heaslip at 8

GunsGerms wrote:

red_stag wrote:06 Warburton
07 Tipuric
08 Heaslip

To me this is by fare the best balanced backrow. I really want to at least see it in a warm up game. I fear that the Lions coaches won't move Warburton like that though.

RubyGubys team is pretty spot on IMO but some tight calls all around.

Surely it would be more balanced with a 6 like Lydiate or O'Brien playing at 6.

I agree, that back row could be incredibly effective but I wouldn't call it balanced. Two breakdown specialists and a wide-channels ball carrier, but no outstanding lineout option or heavyweight carrier.

I think stag has Warbs there because he has accepted that as capt. warbs is very very likely to start, and hes probably right.

best balanced would be SOB Tupiric Heaslip ... Ball carrier, breakdown specialist, all round 8.

I wonder just how good one must play to displace Warburton. Shame Robshaw isn't there as Lydiate's name is not being mentioned at all.

thomh wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

red_stag wrote:06 Warburton
07 Tipuric
08 Heaslip

To me this is by fare the best balanced backrow. I really want to at least see it in a warm up game. I fear that the Lions coaches won't move Warburton like that though.

RubyGubys team is pretty spot on IMO but some tight calls all around.

Surely it would be more balanced with a 6 like Lydiate or O'Brien playing at 6.

I agree, that back row could be incredibly effective but I wouldn't call it balanced. Two breakdown specialists and a wide-channels ball carrier, but no outstanding lineout option or heavyweight carrier.

We could get away with it with the likes of Healy, Hibbard and POC in the pack though.

If both players are on form I'd probably go for Heaslip over Faletau. Both have their strengths but I just think Heaslip is more of a warrior and someone I'd prefer to have in the trenches. He's a leader too whereas Faletau is pretty quiet.

There's also his experience from the SA tour - he'll be a man on a mission to get the series win (not that Faletau won't be).

RDW_Scotland wrote:Big no to 1/2P on the wing - there's no point in that whatsoever with the attacking talents we have available on the wing.

Unless Hogg has a blinder and shows some scintillating attacking skills then I think 1/2P has the starting spot nailed on. Even if Hogg manages that I can see Gatland picking him for his goal kicking and composure at the back.

The only thing I would say to that is that Halfpenny is a different animal on the wing. Think back a year or so ago and how he played there for the first 3 years of his career and how sharp and able in attack he looked out wide.

I agree that the primary wings look like they're playing to a level that will guarantee their selection and as I said I don't expect Gatland to start Halfpenny there, but it might crop up depending on the bench. Based on what he likes and how the players have been performing I can see Gatland going with Roberts & O'Driscoll in midfield with the back 3 we saw today. I'd imagine that will lead to Tuilagi or Hogg on the bench. If Hogg is there and comes on for a back 3 player that isn't Halfpenny, Halfpenny will surely shift up to wing.

Tell you one thing that's for sure - if Warbuton doesn't have a stormer on Saturday Gatland is going to have a real problem on his hands!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Tell you one thing that's for sure - if Warbuton doesn't have a stormer on Saturday Gatland is going to have a real problem on his hands!

I expect Warbs to play safe and focus on his workrate and not getting injured, as long as he makes the hour mark and doesn't totally fluff his lines he'll have a shot of the test jersey! I think as long as he's fit the Tah's game will be his shot at the test shirt, because right now Tipuric is twice the player!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Tell you one thing that's for sure - if Warbuton doesn't have a stormer on Saturday Gatland is going to have a real problem on his hands!

Sorry RDW Gatland will not be picking Warburton to play based on one performance - He knows what his Captain brings already and that is more than enough. Strange comments from you actually; particularly as no back row player is exactly tearing up trees

I wasn’t meaning that he won’t pick him, more the pressure that he will be under from the media and within the squad if the likes of Tupiric and SOB build on strong outings and Croft and Lydiate come into their game.

You need your captain to justify his starting spot.

thomh wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

red_stag wrote:06 Warburton
07 Tipuric
08 Heaslip

To me this is by fare the best balanced backrow. I really want to at least see it in a warm up game. I fear that the Lions coaches won't move Warburton like that though.

RubyGubys team is pretty spot on IMO but some tight calls all around.

Surely it would be more balanced with a 6 like Lydiate or O'Brien playing at 6.

I agree, that back row could be incredibly effective but I wouldn't call it balanced. Two breakdown specialists and a wide-channels ball carrier, but no outstanding lineout option or heavyweight carrier.

I see Heaslip as a guy who is a better ball carrier in close not out wide. I think he's also extremely effective in the lineout. For me he plays much better when Sean O'Brien is not in the team and would thrive when paired with those Welsh tag-team.

Won't get better than that unit. Lydiate, Croft and O'Brien are all options at 6 but I think that we need to see this unit in one game at least before the tests.

The problem we have Stag is seeing that unit against real tough opposition - Warbs and Tips have already played alongside each other, admittedly against a lop-sided english back row but unless we get some quality Aus teams to play against; the Tests may be the only option. I really don't mind if both play at 6 and 7 respectively and like I said it's up to Gatland which way he wants to play it.

You'd have to think that Gatland had pretty much a test side in place before coming down. It would be irresponsible not to. Now if there are stand out players and he sees things working/not working in training he will adjust but you'd have to imagine several test places have been provisionally assigned.

RDW_Scotland wrote:If both players are on form I'd probably go for Heaslip over Faletau. Both have their strengths but I just think Heaslip is more of a warrior and someone I'd prefer to have in the trenches. He's a leader too whereas Faletau is pretty quiet.

There's also his experience from the SA tour - he'll be a man on a mission to get the series win (not that Faletau won't be).

I see your point about Heaslip being a leader, but with O'Connell and the actual captain already in the pack*, I don't think we'd necessarily need another.

I really think Toby's quietness counts against him sometimes. He never seems to get the plaudits.



* - Presumably. Don't take that as an advocation of Warburton's inclusion.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:If both players are on form I'd probably go for Heaslip over Faletau. Both have their strengths but I just think Heaslip is more of a warrior and someone I'd prefer to have in the trenches. He's a leader too whereas Faletau is pretty quiet.

There's also his experience from the SA tour - he'll be a man on a mission to get the series win (not that Faletau won't be).

I see your point about Heaslip being a leader, but with O'Connell and the actual captain already in the pack*, I don't think we'd necessarily need another.

I really think Toby's quietness counts against him sometimes. He never seems to get the plaudits.



* - Presumably. Don't take that as an advocation of Warburton's inclusion.

I agree, Faletau was very good on Saturday and I would say there is little between the 2 for the starting 8 spot.

Makes me smile that with two thirds of the dirttracker fixtures prior to the first test still to be played, people are pronouncing loudly already on what the test team should be. We don't have anything like the full picture yet and won't until at least the Reds game at the weekend is over.

The one big factor now is Warbuton. We don't actually know how fit he currently is - all indicators point to the knee inflammation not being serious. However, if he isn't at 100%, then O'Brien has already shown good form and may well make an unarguable case for a starting slot over the next couple of weeks. If O'Brien is playing well and Warbs is not full firing then Gatland has a real problem.

I think that Gats will keep specialists in specialist positions and with Heaslip playing very well, then I think that Tipuric at 7 and Heaslip at 8 look quite firm bets at the moment. One slot, then, perhaps. Will we need Croft to counter Hooper's amazing speed? With Higginbotham out (and probably Mowen in), it means that we may not need bulk as much any more. Hmm.

George,

We dont have that much time.

How much will be learnt against the Combined Counties of Queensland & New South Wales next Tuesday? Thats even inferior to what Western Force produced today.

I suspect also that we can't be going into the Brumbies game still looking for ideas as that is just 3 days before the 1st Test. Mind needs to be made up at that stage as players won't have time to properly recover.

Which means that by the time we face the Waratahs we need to have our test team almost fully selected.

That only leaves the Reds and this farcical game against the NWS/QLD team to explore options. Thats it.

Which means we need to have at least some idea of a test side at the moment.

red_stag wrote:George,

We dont have that much time.

How much will be learnt against the Combined Counties of Queensland & New South Wales next Tuesday? Thats even inferior to what Western Force produced today.

I suspect also that we can't be going into the Brumbies game still looking for ideas as that is just 3 days before the 1st Test. Mind needs to be made up at that stage as players won't have time to properly recover.

Which means that by the time we face the Waratahs we need to have our test team almost fully selected.

That only leaves the Reds and this farcical game against the NWS/QLD team to explore options. Thats it.

Which means we need to have at least some idea of a test side at the moment.

That's what I mean Staggy - what you describe above is quite literally 100% more game time than we've currently had. I'm not suggesting that we can't be slotting together likely combinations now but games against two of the poorer quality teams don't really tell us anything much yet and certainly not enough to be definitive about.

The Reds game is the key one and I think that Gats has to choose Farrell, Lydiate, Warbuton, Youngs and Jenkins to start as those are the key guys where I don't think we properly know where we are yet.

George Carlin wrote:

The Reds game is the key one and I think that Gats has to choose Farrell, Lydiate, Warbuton, Youngs and Jenkins to start as those are the key guys where I don't think we properly know where we are yet.

I think kearney if fit will need a run out too.

Has Kearny not already been ruled out of the Reds game?

I agree with you that the Reds game will reveal the most but equally I don't see how its too soon to be making provisional decisions about the make up for the 1st Test.

For the team this weekend we definitely have to see those lads you list. I'd also like to see Hogg get the last 20 minutes at flyhalf with a view to resting our guys in the QLD/NSW match.

Jenkins, Youngs, Stevens
Gray, Parling
Lydiate, Falatau, Warburton
Youngs, Farrell
Davies, Tuilagi
North, Kearney, Maitland

Best, Vunipola, Cole, Wyn Jones, O'Brien, Phillips, Hogg, Roberts

If Kearney or Warburton are still not fit enough they will or should find it hard to get back into contention for the first test team.

Gatland will start Tuperic at 7 and Warburton at 6 for the tests.

The fixtures aren’t really ideal – I think the Reds game should be the one to try out as many of the possible test combinations as possible, and the combined team on Tuesday for the fringe players. At the moment it could be the case that Tuesday’s side is stronger than the one put out on Saturday, but up against much weaker opposition.

I suspect the Tah’s game will be the one with most starting combos.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Has Kearny not already been ruled out of the Reds game?

Yeah, he has

LordDowlais wrote:Gatland will start Tuperic at 7 and Warburton at 6 for the tests.

Hope so

red_stag wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Gatland will start Tuperic at 7 and Warburton at 6 for the tests.

Hope so

It would give Heaslip the freedom to carry and make the hard yards as he would not have to be at so many rucks with these pair of speedy gonzales's on the pitch.

LordDowlais wrote:

red_stag wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Gatland will start Tuperic at 7 and Warburton at 6 for the tests.

Hope so

It would give Heaslip the freedom to carry and make the hard yards as he would not have to be at so many rucks with these pair of speedy gonzales's on the pitch.

A man talking my language now!

RDW_Scotland wrote:The fixtures aren’t really ideal – I think the Reds game should be the one to try out as many of the possible test combinations as possible, and the combined team on Tuesday for the fringe players. At the moment it could be the case that Tuesday’s side is stronger than the one put out on Saturday, but up against much weaker opposition.

I suspect the Tah’s game will be the one with most starting combos.

I think that's right. Hopefully Jenkins is back up to speed now because we need to know what our front row options are.

I was slightly concerned that we didn't get purchase in the scrums today in the way that we should have and Rory's arrows weren't quite at their optimal.

We need a powerful front 5 if that's the case and at the moment that would be

Jones, Hibbard, A.N.Other
POC AWJ

I'll be interested to see AWJ and O'Connell play together. They did not form an effective pairing on the 2009 Tour but things could well be different this time around. Certainly the two best individual locks.

red_stag wrote:I'll be interested to see AWJ and O'Connell play together. They did not form an effective pairing on the 2009 Tour but things could well be different this time around. Certainly the two best individual locks.

I think they are too similar – you need an Evans or Gray in there with them to play at 4.

red_stag wrote:I'll be interested to see AWJ and O'Connell play together. They did not form an effective pairing on the 2009 Tour but things could well be different this time around. Certainly the two best individual locks.

Really, really don't understand or agree with that. When Evans left to get married in the summer, the Welsh tight game was clearly and directly affected in the Wallabies matches - he is by the far the most important member of the Welsh four keystones in the second row (Davies, Charteris, Evans and AWJ). AWJ - er, how can I put this? I think he is the least vital member of Wales 6N winning pack. He isn't as good defensively as Evans, as influential in the lineout or as good in the loose as Gray and isn't as much of a force of nature as O'Connell. I have watched him closely in Ospreys matches for a number of seasons now and I honestly think he has less in his favour than any of the others. But I don't wish to offend anyone and totally understand that other people believe the polar opposite. Hopefully I will now leave this thread alive.

To give him credit GC, he does sing the Welsh anthem really well...

Well played Sir!

I've always liked AWJ. I would have happily had him as Lions Captain to be honest. I think he's a cracking old school second row. Not very flashy but hits a lot of rucks and has very high work rate.

It's either or for me regarding POC and AWJ I'm afraid. They are very similar.

Wow!

AWJ is hailed as the skillfull and lock of guile, yet today he outplayed anything Evans, Grey or POC showed us in the tight, he was a hugely physical presence, commited defenders constantly, and defencively was our only muscle option in narrower channells.

Off the back of todays performance I am willing to bet test 1 already has AWJ's name scribbled in the lock section, anyone honestly thinking he looks poor can take my bet!

RDW_Scotland wrote:To give him credit GC, he does sing the Welsh anthem really well...

Yes, he is by the far the most handsome of the Lions forwards though. Does that count for anything? My wife claims that it does. She then made an inappropriate remark about spreading his bread of heaven or something. Tsk.

Edit: I didn't say he looked poor, Bluesman. I've just saying that as part of a lock combination I'd prefer Paul O'Connell in the 'Paul O'Connell Role'.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Wow!

AWJ is hailed as the skillfull and lock of guile, yet today he outplayed anything Evans, Grey or POC showed us in the tight, he was a hugely physical presence, commited defenders constantly, and defencively was our only muscle option in narrower channells.

Off the back of todays performance I am willing to bet test 1 already has AWJ's name scribbled in the lock section, anyone honestly thinking he looks poor can take my bet!

I thought he was pretty good today. Mind you POC could have got MOTM on Saturday himself. He was particularly good in the first half. Everyone else is playing catch up IMO.

GunsGerms wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Wow!

AWJ is hailed as the skillfull and lock of guile, yet today he outplayed anything Evans, Grey or POC showed us in the tight, he was a hugely physical presence, commited defenders constantly, and defencively was our only muscle option in narrower channells.

Off the back of todays performance I am willing to bet test 1 already has AWJ's name scribbled in the lock section, anyone honestly thinking he looks poor can take my bet!

I thought he was pretty good today. Mind you POC could have got MOTM on Saturday himself. He was particularly good in the first half. Everyone else is playing catch up IMO.

But thats a key point, POC fell off the pace second half, and was replaced pretty early. I know the conditions were bad but AWJ had the full 80 today, and he was my MOTM. The rest of the tight 5 today were poor, mainly because the back row spent their game near the wings and having a field day out wide (highlighted by Sexton covering 2nd pillar under his own posts 3 times) but AWJ really stood up and covered a huge amount of work!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Wow!

AWJ is hailed as the skillfull and lock of guile, yet today he outplayed anything Evans, Grey or POC showed us in the tight, he was a hugely physical presence, commited defenders constantly, and defencively was our only muscle option in narrower channells.

Off the back of todays performance I am willing to bet test 1 already has AWJ's name scribbled in the lock section, anyone honestly thinking he looks poor can take my bet!

I thought he was pretty good today. Mind you POC could have got MOTM on Saturday himself. He was particularly good in the first half. Everyone else is playing catch up IMO.

But thats a key point, POC fell off the pace second half, and was replaced pretty early. I know the conditions were bad but AWJ had the full 80 today, and he was my MOTM. The rest of the tight 5 today were poor, mainly because the back row spent their game near the wings and having a field day out wide (highlighted by Sexton covering 2nd pillar under his own posts 3 times) but AWJ really stood up and covered a huge amount of work!

I wouldn't really sorry about POC lasting 80 minutes in a test game, he has one of the best engines for a second rower I've seen.

Gretgael1 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Wow!

AWJ is hailed as the skillfull and lock of guile, yet today he outplayed anything Evans, Grey or POC showed us in the tight, he was a hugely physical presence, commited defenders constantly, and defencively was our only muscle option in narrower channells.

Off the back of todays performance I am willing to bet test 1 already has AWJ's name scribbled in the lock section, anyone honestly thinking he looks poor can take my bet!

I thought he was pretty good today. Mind you POC could have got MOTM on Saturday himself. He was particularly good in the first half. Everyone else is playing catch up IMO.

But thats a key point, POC fell off the pace second half, and was replaced pretty early. I know the conditions were bad but AWJ had the full 80 today, and he was my MOTM. The rest of the tight 5 today were poor, mainly because the back row spent their game near the wings and having a field day out wide (highlighted by Sexton covering 2nd pillar under his own posts 3 times) but AWJ really stood up and covered a huge amount of work!

I wouldn't really sorry about POC lasting 80 minutes in a test game, he has one of the best engines for a second rower I've seen.

Had mate, he isn't what he was a few years ago, hasn't played much recently too. Not that I'm worried, but he is in a battle with AWJ and Parling for the 5 style place (although I'd play him and AWJ together)

Holy crap - they've called up Corbs to replace Healy:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/05/lions-alex-corbisiero-cian-healy

Just cannot believe anyone would choose Corbs over Grant at the moment.

Grant has been a hero all season, kicked arse in internationals and battled Adam Jones to a stalemate. Corbs hasn't played any internationals at all this season and cannot have played more than a handful of club games.

It's not even a Scottish thing. I just cannot think on what possible basis that's justificable. Paul James should also be spitting - I would far rather take him too on current form.

George Carlin wrote:Holy crap - they've called up Corbs to replace Healy:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/05/lions-alex-corbisiero-cian-healy

Just cannot believe anyone would choose Corbs over Grant.

Grant has been a hero all season, kicked arse in internationals and battled Adam Jones to a stalemate. Corbs hasn't played any internationals at all this season and cannot have played more than a handful of club games.

It's not even a Scottish thing. I'm just appalled.

the answer is easy george....rowntree

I just hope this favouring of English front row forwards (Hartley, Corbs and even Vunipola) doesn't extend to the test match squad

At the moment, Cole and Youngs are a long way from the starting 15 - I wouldn't mind Vunipola on current form though