Champions Trophy - England and Wales 2013

First topic message reminder :

We have had a few prediction/ speculation type threads but this will be the discussion thread for matches in the Champions Trophy which starts this morning.

The first game is India v South Africa at the Swalec Stadium, Cardiff.

If only SA had Trott and Bell in their top 3. They'd be looking at a decent total right now.

Another run out. JP Duminy.

liverbnz wrote:If only SA had Trott and Bell in their top 3. They'd be looking at a decent total right now.

funny you should say that because they did exactly the same as our top 4!

There would have been no differece- because there wasnt.. This is just proving how silly this tactic is and how it can go wrong..

Review from McLaren, umpire's call and he has to go. SA 203-6.

mystiroakey wrote:

liverbnz wrote:If only SA had Trott and Bell in their top 3. They'd be looking at a decent total right now.

funny you should say that because they did exactly the same as our top 4!

There would have been no differece- because there wasnt.. This is just proving how silly this tactic is and how it can go wrong..

Or, as evidence in the tournament so far is showing, you are grossly overestimating what a good score on these pitches is.

Also, Trott and Bell batted longer and at a quicker rate.

Average first innings score at Brum is 225 or so. If we add about 20/25 for the new regs, and that's being kind on these slow pitches, then 250 seems par. 5 an over.

Ramdin's been banned for two games. Well done ICC.

Now 231-7. Last over to come.

Another run out Chris Morris on ODI debut.

SA end up with 234-9. The innings ended with yet another run-out. Pakistan batting is inconsistent, couple of early wickets can bring SA back in. Pakistan favorites at the moment.

These two teams are not frightening me thats all I can say..

Pakistan 35-2 in the 14th over. Bit of a struggle really, and the South African bowling has been much better than it was against India. Pakistan also letting them bowl better it has to be said.
Young Chris Morris is someone I hope to watch for some years to come. Very glad to see him providing the 2 early breakthroughs for his side.

Its interesting to see South Africa pick 2 spinners in their playing 11. But I am not too sure they have the class to creat serious trouble for Pakistan. Phangiso so far has been the relief bowler for Pakistan, going at 5 an over.

JP Duminy strikes in his first over. He has ended Shoaib Malik's troubled stay at the wicket, bit of a soft dismissal in the end, but Mallik was struggling to get the ball off the wicket, just 8 of 29 for him. Pakistan 48-3 after 18.

The required RR has gone over 6 now. Pakistan 49-3 after 19.

if only Pakistan had Trott and Bell in the top 3, they would be well on their way to winning this one

Pakistan 75-3 at the halfway stage of their innings. They need another 160 runs of 150 balls.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:if only Pakistan had Trott and Bell in the top 3, they would be well on their way to winning this one

When England where getting bowled out for less than 200 totals in India earlier in the year, when they struggled in New Zealand, and then when they lost the ODI series against NZ at home, What where Bell and Trott doing? At least one of them was around throughout weren't they? More often than not, the Bell and Trott style success up to 35 overs is a prelude to a full blown middle order collapse. Thanks to the much maligned Samit Patel, they posted a big total in India ones, Joe Root's busy approach kept them in the game a couple of times in NZ, and poor old Ravi Bopara and the number 8 Tim Bresnan saved the day against the Australians. Not for one moment am I suggesting that the runs that Bell and Trott scored are not valuable, the point is an altogether simple one, if they could show greater intent with the bat while there out in the middle, or bat through the innings with a strike rate close to 100, the middle order would get greater space, and more sensible plans can be formulated that are not based on wild optimism that one of them would score big at a strike rate of 300 every time.

Now Tsotsobe into the act, Jamshed goes, Pakistan in further trouble, 86-4 after 28.

Jamshed got out for 50 in the last game at a critical time, and here he's gone for 42. He being an openers, should look to convert more of these 40s and 50s into more significant contributions.

Pakistan need another 133 of 102 balls. They are 102-4 after 33. The batting powerplay will be important. They really need to have a good to pull this one off.

Pakistan take the batting powerplay one over before it would have automatically come in. Ryan McLaren back on to give the spinners a break.

A bit of sniping from both sides I see. Good to see msp getting involved, it makes me feel better about when I do snipe.

The one thing I would say about msp's point about Bell or Trott not batting through, I think England would rather Morgan come in with 15-20 overs to go, than Bell or Trott carry on. Eventually he will probably score quicker than they would have had they stayed in. And I maintain, the ideal scenario is one where Buttler WON'T have time to play himself in, because so far that's when he's performed best. Every time he's had time to play a substantial innings, he's ballsed it up.

Mike Selig wrote:A bit of sniping from both sides I see. Good to see msp getting involved, it makes me feel better about when I do snipe.

The one thing I would say about msp's point about Bell or Trott not batting through, I think England would rather Morgan come in with 15-20 overs to go, than Bell or Trott carry on. Eventually he will probably score quicker than they would have had they stayed in. And I maintain, the ideal scenario is one where Buttler WON'T have time to play himself in, because so far that's when he's performed best. Every time he's had time to play a substantial innings, he's ballsed it up.

Mike, the problem then is that Morgan would be coming into a situation where England are 3 down with them needing to really up the tempo of the innings. Attempts to do that is a risky affair, and another wicket at that point would place serious pressure on the stroke makers. They have to ensure the side bat through the innings, at the same time they have to build the tempo of the innings majorly. But if one of the top order batsmen bat through to the 45th over at least, and up the tempo of his own and the team's innings, the middle order can be expected to do a much better job, and for me, that is a great deal more sensible approach. But for that, the likes of Trott and Bell have to modify their mental approach to the game.

Pakistan had scored 22 without loss in the first 4 overs of the powerplay, but a double strike from McLaren, Umar Amin and Kamran Akmal, in the next over has landed a serious blow on them. Misbah isn't giving up though, launching Peterson for 6 in the very next over after those double strikes.

The 3 South African spinners have bowled 20 overs so far for combined figures of 1-82. They all can bowl a few more overs, but AB has the space to use his seamers for the remaining overs.

Massive blow for Pakistan, Misbah goes. Tsotsobe with the important strike for South Africa. Wahab Riaz can hit some big shots, but Misbah was their last real hope.

So if the Proteas close out the win and India beat the West Indies.

Pakistan will be out.

South Africa vs West Indies will be a quarter final

Riaz and Ajmal aren't giving up just as yet, 3 boundaries of the last 3 balls, one to Ajmal, a couple of them to Wahab. Pakistan 160-7.
2 balls later, the fun's over for Riaz, Phangiso with the wicket. Pak 162-8.

Pakistan would do well to bat out the overs and score as much as possible. Their NRR isn't great as such already. If the West Indies manage to win all 3, and if Pakistan manage to beat India, then they are in with a chance.

Now they are 9 down, another 35 balls remain in the innings.

Pakistan all out 167 in 45 overs. Very difficult for them to have a chance hereafter. Would need a massive win against India and hope the West Indies win their next 2 games.

Ryan McLaren finishes with 4 wickets. Chris Morris on debut took 2 and so did Lonwabo Tsotsobe. Phangiso and Duminy with a wicket each.

Dale Steyn is not ruled out of the tournament as yet. If he's ready for the West Indies game, that would make the South African bowling unit a lot more stronger.

AB de Villiers hinted that Steyn should be ready for the next game. With Duminy in there, think both Phangiso and Peterson seems like overkill. One of them has to give way to Steyn. Peterson has made important contributions with the bat in the first game and even today for that matter, and I think he should stay. Can't really see anything special in Phangiso.

Good win for SA; Pakistan's batting really poor.

Pakistan need to think about the personnel after this tournament. Farhat and Malik have struggled time and time again. I simply can't find any justification whatsoever for picking either of them ahead of Younis Khan but there must be two younger players in Pakistan that are better than that pair!

Where's Umar Akmal?

msp83 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:if only Pakistan had Trott and Bell in the top 3, they would be well on their way to winning this one

When England where getting bowled out for less than 200 totals in India earlier in the year, when they struggled in New Zealand, and then when they lost the ODI series against NZ at home, What where Bell and Trott doing? At least one of them was around throughout weren't they? More often than not, the Bell and Trott style success up to 35 overs is a prelude to a full blown middle order collapse. Thanks to the much maligned Samit Patel, they posted a big total in India ones, Joe Root's busy approach kept them in the game a couple of times in NZ, and poor old Ravi Bopara and the number 8 Tim Bresnan saved the day against the Australians. Not for one moment am I suggesting that the runs that Bell and Trott scored are not valuable, the point is an altogether simple one, if they could show greater intent with the bat while there out in the middle, or bat through the innings with a strike rate close to 100, the middle order would get greater space, and more sensible plans can be formulated that are not based on wild optimism that one of them would score big at a strike rate of 300 every time.

You make it sound as though England did badly in those overseas games. England lost the series in India 3 - 2 but won in NZ 2- 1. That's not bad at all.

Also I didn't think Trott played in those games in India? Bell scored 85, 1, 25, 10 and 113 (if I've done my homework correctly!) in those games so wouldn't have been around much in those middle games all of which England lost.

India v West Indies today. Whichever side win, they are almost through to the next round.

India have won the toss and are bowling, hoping to restrict WI to something manageable and let their star batting line-up do the rest. For WI, Ramdin is suspended, so Sammy comes in, and Charles will keep wicket. While I very much agree that Charles is an absolutely terrible batsman and that it's embarrassing that he's playing here, the balance of the side looks a tad better with Sammy in there for me, as I was unconvinced by the policy of only playing three specialist bowlers and relying on Samuels, Gayle, Pollard and Bravo for 20 overs...

India, unsurprisingly, unchanged. They have a nicely balanced line-up IMO, the much-maligned Jadeja playing a key role in the n°7 spot...

Never thought WI going in with only 3 specialist bowlers was a bright idea. Good to see a more balanced side from them today, although its more of an enforced change. Agree on Charles, Kieron Powell or even Dwayne Smith could have been better options, although the latter has got plenty of chances.

It will be good to see a big chase today. Really show what indias batting is all about

Jadeja's bowling was arguably what clinched the game against South Africa. 2-31 off 9 when both teams manage over 300 is seriously good going.

Apart from that I agree that Sammy back strengthens the West Indies side, but really they need to find a keeper who can bat better than Ramdin.

Very few comments about Ramdin's cheating BTW - because whatever Dwayne Bravo says it was cheating pure and simple, and very very poor. 2 match ban richly deserved. It was also clear from the huddle after the wicket that others knew it hadn't been completely kosher.

West Indies did try out Devin Thomas as a wicketkeeping option, but he didn't look much better than Ramdin. Who else could be a possible option?

Just the one over from Umesh Yadav in his first spell. Ishant replaced him after an 11 run first over.

Gayle trying to take charge of early in the innings. He attacked Umesh in his first over, now deliberately trying to throw Bhuvneshwar off his line and length by attempting a charge down the wicket.

And Bhuvi wins that battle, after lofting a boundary over his head, Bhuvneshwar gets Gayle, caught by Ashwin.

I like Kumar a lot as a cricketer. Stuck to his lines and got his reward. Big wicket obviously as Gayle looked quite good.

West Indies do rely too much on Gayle for 50 over cricket. Samuels can play a proper innings also, but not convinced about Bravo in this format yet, so you're relying everytime on one of Samuels or Gayle to play a significant innings, or one of the hitters to come off spectacularly.

Charles meanwhile going well 4 off 13... Either block or swipe...

Its been very good start for the West Indies. 60-1 in the 11th over.

Ravichandran Ashwin's on, playing his 50th ODI.

Johnson Charles is your typical pslogger. He's not aclass stroke maker at the top, but he can slog. Today looks like his day. Virat Kohli playing his 100th game with the ball.