Djokovic - where to now?

by time please Mon 10 Jun 2013, 2:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

I didn't watch the semi in 'real time' and so missed post match interviews etc (not that they would necessarily be that enlightening)

Djokovic spent so many years as No 3, having consistent success but so often failing, usually in nail bitingly close semi finals, when coming face to face with Federer or Nadal. He battled with various health niggles, sometimes not finding a way to push through the pain barrier, sometimes failing by a couple of strokes of brilliance from his opponents, or missing a shot at a crucial point. It was more often than not, heartbreakingly close, but just falling short in the big moment.

2011 saw the birth of the new iron resolve, and the rest, as they say, is history. 2012 failed, for Djokovic and his fans, to live up to the stellar 2011, but was still a great year. 2013 has started well with another victory in Melbourne, but Djokovic's heart seemed to be set on Roland Garros - perhaps in part to complete 'the set' but also, I can't help feeling, because to beat Nadal at RG would be to strike if not a fatal blow, then certainly a grievous one, at Nadal's citadel. A blow that, had it fallen, would surely have left Nadal feeling very vulnerable to Djokovic throughout the rest of the year, and to Djokovic feeling close to invincible against Nadal.

The semi had its ups and downs, but at the last was as fiercely contested as we've come to expect from them both - whoever lost was going to feel bruised beyond mere muscle fatigue. We know how Nadal has responded to the challenge Djokovic threw down in 2011 and to the beatings he took. How does everyone see Djokovic responding, having taken so long to find the key, now that normal service was resumed on Friday?

by lydian Tue 11 Jun 2013, 1:48 pm

Well lets see in future.

by Gerry SA Tue 11 Jun 2013, 1:51 pm

I'm not sure about Djokovic having Nadal's number at Roland Garros.

If Nadal continues to hit the double hander up the line, then it changes the dynamic of their matches.

by bogbrush Tue 11 Jun 2013, 2:47 pm

Gerry SA wrote:I'm not sure about Djokovic having Nadal's number at Roland Garros.

If Nadal continues to hit the double hander up the line, then it changes the dynamic of their matches.

If Nadal hits his double hander up the line he may as well go home. It's the forehand up the line that gives him a better chance.

by hawkeye Tue 11 Jun 2013, 3:09 pm

bogbrush.

Djokovic or no Djokovic I reckon (as long as he stays injury) free Nadal is going to end up with close to Federer's 17 (or 18 or 19 Fingers Crossed

) slams. You are clutching at straws. If only you could also appreciate Nadal you would realize that this would not depreciate Federer's illustrious achievements...

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 3:20 pm

He's not depreciating anyone, he's just giving his point of view on how the dynamics of the Nadal-Djokovic rivalry stand.
It is difficult to predict, as it depends on both the health and level of both these players.

by mthierry Tue 11 Jun 2013, 3:22 pm

I think some are overplaying the luck -or lack of - of Nole in that match. A match he should have lost in 4 and where he was clearly second best. If you're gonna credit his 4th set fightback to level the match, it's ridiculous to ignore that of Nadal in the 5th. As for the match in favourable conditions for Nadal being proof of how far ahead Nole is now from Nadal, you would think in their last hard court meeting that he crushed Nadal. Nevermind it was a tight 6+ hours 5-setter that Nadal could have won if he kept his head better at 4-2 in the final set.

I can see Nole is the new proxy for certain Federer fans to extend their anti-Rafa sentiments - more so as Federer himself visibly declines. Sorry to reduce the debate to that fanboy adversarial level but that is what I've observed. There's been a bit of a concerted effort to diminish Nadal's achievement in this tournament by lionizing Nole as this untouchable juggernaut that only needs turn up and Nadal doesn't have a prayer. Pathetic nonsense, if you ask me.

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 3:27 pm

Nadal has won 8 titles at the French, while Djokovic has only reached 1 final... I don't think anyone is saying Djokovic just needs to turn up and Nadal doesn't have a prayer (apart from _homogenised_ who said that, but he's run away after Nadal won his 8th FO).

by bogbrush Tue 11 Jun 2013, 3:58 pm

mthierry wrote:I think some are overplaying the luck -or lack of - of Nole in that match. A match he should have lost in 4 and where he was clearly second best. If you're gonna credit his 4th set fightback to level the match, it's ridiculous to ignore that of Nadal in the 5th. As for the match in favourable conditions for Nadal being proof of how far ahead Nole is now from Nadal, you would think in their last hard court meeting that he crushed Nadal. Nevermind it was a tight 6+ hours 5-setter that Nadal could have won if he kept his head better at 4-2 in the final set.

I can see Nole is the new proxy for certain Federer fans to extend their anti-Rafa sentiments - more so as Federer himself visibly declines. Sorry to reduce the debate to that fanboy adversarial level but that is what I've observed. There's been a bit of a concerted effort to diminish Nadal's achievement in this tournament by lionizing Nole as this untouchable juggernaut that only needs turn up and Nadal doesn't have a prayer. Pathetic nonsense, if you ask me.

I can see someone can't handle objective opinion unless it corresponds to their prayers.

Seriously, I'm now being called pro-Djokovic. Wait until socal hears about this.................. Laugh

Good job I didn't ask you.

by bogbrush Tue 11 Jun 2013, 4:00 pm

Red wrote:Nadal has won 8 titles at the French, while Djokovic has only reached 1 final... I don't think anyone is saying Djokovic just needs to turn up and Nadal doesn't have a prayer (apart from _homogenised_ who said that, but he's run away after Nadal won his 8th FO).

Totally.

Tell you what, that "inevitable" career Slam is looking slightly more tenuous now.

by HM Murdock Tue 11 Jun 2013, 4:06 pm

bogbrush wrote:Tell you what, that "inevitable" career Slam is looking slightly more tenuous now.

Darn it, BB! Just as I was going to send you a Novak wig and welcome you to the fan club, you go and ruin it with a comment like that.

Seriously, if you are going to cut it as a fan boy, you can't allow these spontaneous outbreaks of rationality.

by Guest Tue 11 Jun 2013, 4:09 pm

mthierry wrote:I think some are overplaying the luck -or lack of - of Nole in that match. A match he should have lost in 4 and where he was clearly second best. If you're gonna credit his 4th set fightback to level the match, it's ridiculous to ignore that of Nadal in the 5th. As for the match in favourable conditions for Nadal being proof of how far ahead Nole is now from Nadal, you would think in their last hard court meeting that he crushed Nadal. Nevermind it was a tight 6+ hours 5-setter that Nadal could have won if he kept his head better at 4-2 in the final set.

I can see Nole is the new proxy for certain Federer fans to extend their anti-Rafa sentiments - more so as Federer himself visibly declines. Sorry to reduce the debate to that fanboy adversarial level but that is what I've observed. There's been a bit of a concerted effort to diminish Nadal's achievement in this tournament by lionizing Nole as this untouchable juggernaut that only needs turn up and Nadal doesn't have a prayer. Pathetic nonsense, if you ask me.

I had Djokovic as the favourite but I stated clearly that the margins are very fine and Rafa could most certainly win and take the match away from Djokovic. I'm not a Nadal fan but that's because I don't like his style of play which I see as negative, grinding and mostly defensive. However I still appreciate that he is a great champion and have said so on many occasions. As for the bold part - yes it is pathetic nonsense that you really think people were seriously suggesting what you've written. Clue; some people like to WUM.

ghost

I am the emancipator - my time is near.

by time please Tue 11 Jun 2013, 4:17 pm

mthierry wrote:I think some are overplaying the luck -or lack of - of Nole in that match. A match he should have lost in 4 and where he was clearly second best. If you're gonna credit his 4th set fightback to level the match, it's ridiculous to ignore that of Nadal in the 5th. As for the match in favourable conditions for Nadal being proof of how far ahead Nole is now from Nadal, you would think in their last hard court meeting that he crushed Nadal. Nevermind it was a tight 6+ hours 5-setter that Nadal could have won if he kept his head better at 4-2 in the final set.

I can see Nole is the new proxy for certain Federer fans to extend their anti-Rafa sentiments - more so as Federer himself visibly declines. Sorry to reduce the debate to that fanboy adversarial level but that is what I've observed. There's been a bit of a concerted effort to diminish Nadal's achievement in this tournament by lionizing Nole as this untouchable juggernaut that only needs turn up and Nadal doesn't have a prayer. Pathetic nonsense, if you ask me.

There have been so many thoughtful interesting contributions on this thread, and courteous exchange of differing views - what a shame the same can't be said of your contribution.

To borrow an adjective: a bit 'pathetic' really!

by bogbrush Tue 11 Jun 2013, 4:25 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Tell you what, that "inevitable" career Slam is looking slightly more tenuous now.
Darn it, BB! Just as I was going to send you a Novak wig and welcome you to the fan club, you go and ruin it with a comment like that.

Seriously, if you are going to cut it as a fan boy, you can't allow these spontaneous outbreaks of rationality.

Oh I still make him 2014 favourite, don't worry about that!

And with a name like "bogbrush", what makes you think I need a Novak wig?

by mthierry Tue 11 Jun 2013, 5:11 pm

timeplease wrote:There have been so many thoughtful interesting contributions on this thread, and courteous exchange of differing views - what a shame the same can't be said of your contribution.

To borrow an adjective: a bit 'pathetic' really!

There's nothing wrong with criticizing a view-point if I think it's ridiculous. I've written nothing offensive or abusive. Wind your neck in a little and lose the sanctimony.

by time please Tue 11 Jun 2013, 5:32 pm

mthierry wrote:
timeplease wrote:There have been so many thoughtful interesting contributions on this thread, and courteous exchange of differing views - what a shame the same can't be said of your contribution.

To borrow an adjective: a bit 'pathetic' really!
There's nothing wrong with criticizing a view-point if I think it's ridiculous. I've written nothing offensive or abusive. Wind your neck in a little and lose the sanctimony.

I think you were fairly rude. Clearly you think you were the soul of politeness, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree Wink

by Guest Tue 11 Jun 2013, 6:06 pm

bogbrush wrote:
HM Murdoch wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Tell you what, that "inevitable" career Slam is looking slightly more tenuous now.
Darn it, BB! Just as I was going to send you a Novak wig and welcome you to the fan club, you go and ruin it with a comment like that.

Seriously, if you are going to cut it as a fan boy, you can't allow these spontaneous outbreaks of rationality.
Oh I still make him 2014 favourite, don't worry about that!

And with a name like "bogbrush", what makes you think I need a Novak wig?

Hehe

That's good.

by socal1976 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 6:25 pm

bogbrush wrote:
mthierry wrote:I think some are overplaying the luck -or lack of - of Nole in that match. A match he should have lost in 4 and where he was clearly second best. If you're gonna credit his 4th set fightback to level the match, it's ridiculous to ignore that of Nadal in the 5th. As for the match in favourable conditions for Nadal being proof of how far ahead Nole is now from Nadal, you would think in their last hard court meeting that he crushed Nadal. Nevermind it was a tight 6+ hours 5-setter that Nadal could have won if he kept his head better at 4-2 in the final set.

I can see Nole is the new proxy for certain Federer fans to extend their anti-Rafa sentiments - more so as Federer himself visibly declines. Sorry to reduce the debate to that fanboy adversarial level but that is what I've observed. There's been a bit of a concerted effort to diminish Nadal's achievement in this tournament by lionizing Nole as this untouchable juggernaut that only needs turn up and Nadal doesn't have a prayer. Pathetic nonsense, if you ask me.
I can see someone can't handle objective opinion unless it corresponds to their prayers.

Seriously, I'm now being called pro-Djokovic. Wait until socal hears about this..................

Good job I didn't ask you.

I agree with your lengthy post on this comment and it isn't the first time I have agreed with a position you have had. Generally, I think your ideas run the gamut from bad to worse than bad, but when the man is right he is right. I mean lets remember that over the last 7 clay court matches, Nadal is 4-3 in the lead and his edge involves one match in which he was down in the 5th set. Some Nadal fans are pumping up this new found impregnability of Nadal on clay. If anything the RG title is now very much in play for the next couple of years maybe few years between the two.

BB noted something I agree with, everything was in Nadal's favor. The court was dry giving his spin more bite and height. The weather was windy, nadal is much better in the wind than Novak who still gets a little shakey in windy conditions. The temperatures were hot and should have favored the ironman Nadal. On top of that I think Nadal played pretty damn close to the best he can currently play, his gameplan and his backhand looked lights out. That being said it wasn't by any stretch a comfortable win. I think those that believe Nadal is some kind of unscaleable tower for Djokovic regardless of the surface are being more than a little over confident. Novak may or may not win the RG, but his chances are I think pretty good even if he has to put it together on a given night and beat Nadal on clay over 5 sets.

I mean I didn't feel this confident of Novak's dominance over Nadal during his 7 match win streak as some of you are talking up Nadal's voodoo over Djokovic on clay. The man has beaten Nadal in every single master's event on clay the last 3 years and was whisker from taking it now. If anything he has closed the gap quite rapidly between himself and Nadal on clay and is right there.

by socal1976 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 6:27 pm

PS.

BB the Djokovic fan club meetings are every Thursday nights GMT 500pm, we have tea knowing how you abstain from the devil's sauce.

by HM Murdock Tue 11 Jun 2013, 7:21 pm

socal1976 wrote:PS.

BB the Djokovic fan club meetings are every Thursday nights GMT 500pm, we have tea knowing how you abstain from the devil's sauce.

By the way, Socal, here's the agenda for this Thursday's meeting:

5:00 pm - Cup of tea, welcome new member bogbrush.
5:15 pm - Initiation of bogbrush. He must perform a hilarious impersonation of a tennis player. Comedy wig to be provided.
5:30 pm - Reflections on The Shot and its impact on post-war western culture.
6:00 pm - Update on the Chairgate Investigation. Special Agent Red to join via web conference.
6:30 pm - Rip our shirts off.

by socal1976 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 7:26 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:
socal1976 wrote:PS.

BB the Djokovic fan club meetings are every Thursday nights GMT 500pm, we have tea knowing how you abstain from the devil's sauce.
By the way, Socal, here's the agenda for this Thursday's meeting:

5:00 pm - Cup of tea, welcome new member bogbrush.
5:15 pm - Initiation of bogbrush. He must perform a hilarious impersonation of a tennis player. Comedy wig to be provided.
5:30 pm - Reflections on The Shot and its impact on post-war western culture.
6:00 pm - Update on the Chairgate Investigation. Special Agent Red to join via web conference.
6:30 pm - Rip our shirts off.

Can't be a Djokovic fan club without a round of shirt ripping and yelling into a camera. Also you forgot the most important part of the itinerary to give him a poofy screech inspired haircut.

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 7:30 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:
5:30 pm - Reflections on The Shot and its impact on post-war western culture.

by mthierry Tue 11 Jun 2013, 9:53 pm

socal1976 wrote:I agree with your lengthy post on this comment and it isn't the first time I have agreed with a position you have had. Generally, I think your ideas run the gamut from bad to worse than bad, but when the man is right he is right. I mean lets remember that over the last 7 clay court matches, Nadal is 4-3 in the lead and his edge involves one match in which he was down in the 5th set. Some Nadal fans are pumping up this new found impregnability of Nadal on clay. If anything the RG title is now very much in play for the next couple of years maybe few years between the two.

BB noted something I agree with, everything was in Nadal's favor. The court was dry giving his spin more bite and height. The weather was windy, nadal is much better in the wind than Novak who still gets a little shakey in windy conditions. The temperatures were hot and should have favored the ironman Nadal. On top of that I think Nadal played pretty damn close to the best he can currently play, his gameplan and his backhand looked lights out. That being said it wasn't by any stretch a comfortable win. I think those that believe Nadal is some kind of unscaleable tower for Djokovic regardless of the surface are being more than a little over confident. Novak may or may not win the RG, but his chances are I think pretty good even if he has to put it together on a given night and beat Nadal on clay over 5 sets.

I mean I didn't feel this confident of Novak's dominance over Nadal during his 7 match win streak as some of you are talking up Nadal's voodoo over Djokovic on clay. The man has beaten Nadal in every single master's event on clay the last 3 years and was whisker from taking it now. If anything he has closed the gap quite rapidly between himself and Nadal on clay and is right there.

Are you serious with the bolded? I haven't seen a single poster here give such an impression. I also have a problem with the "Nadal played his best and an off-key Nole still almost won it" line. It's a pretty biased, rose-tinted view that disrespects the opposition and builds Novak to a seemingly untouchable pedestal where he doesn't belong. If Nole was anywhere near as off-colour as some are making out he'd have been hammered in 3 straight sets. He played a great game but went walk-about in set 3 and the pressure got to him in the 5th set. I would also argue Nadal only played his actual assertive best when it looked like the game was running away in the 5th set and he had to change his more negative previous approach. As for the court conditions, I'd say except the courts and balls were really sodden with rain in abnormal conditions like in part of last years final, I still think Nadal stands a good chance. Your clay stats factor the last 7? One could easily post the last 5 or the last 15 which would present a different picture.

by socal1976 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:06 pm

MThierry, the posts I read on here about how he might not break through now and maybe he can win one if Rafa is injured or whatever in my opinion paint a pretty overconfident picture of some, again some Rafa fans. What untouchable pedestal are we putting Novak up on. The guy came a few points short and a lot of people are talking about how Roland Garros might allude him forever and things like that. I am saying that is premature, it may or it may not happen, but at this point I see his chances of breakthrough to be pretty good. I don't doubt Nadal and Djokovic could both play better. As I have said what makes this rivalry interesting is that either guy can win on his opponents favorite surface, it comes down to who plays better that day.

As for the rather obvious observation that Novak had more streaky play in the semi, if you watched the match it was obvious. It is not an excuse, it is just observation arising out of his off color start and 6-1 set. How is saying one competitor went up and down more in a match insulting to Nadal. It seems that there are some people who just want to feel aggrieved and insulted.

Your guy won, we all congratulated him and nobody said he didn't deserve it. But some people are making a mountain of Novak's loss already. I am sure it will be in the short term very hard to deal with. But if anything, if I was a rafa fan watching the last 3 years of their matches on clay I wouldn't be too confident following this last semi. If anything the trajectory of the past couple of years has shown a narrowing of the margin between Novak and Nadal on clay. Deny it all you like, this isn't 2009 and 2010. The margin is tighter between Rafa now and his nearest competitor on clay than it has been for his entire career, although that margin still exists. Bold facing and being insulted isn't going to change that fact.

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:13 pm

Djokovic still has a great chance to win RG in his career, he may even do so in 2014 who knows.
It's difficult to predict how a future match-up will turn out- as I said it depends on level of play and fitness for both competitors.
RG 2013 could have gone either way... apart from set 3 both players played fantastic tennis.

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:14 pm

For the record, I don't believe either Nadal or Djokovic has an 'iron grip' on the rivalry right now- but this may change as Djokovic could improve while Nadal declines (remember Nadal is 27 now). Or Nadal may surge ahead, let's see.

by lydian Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:20 pm

Since 2011 Nadal is 4-1 up, plus lost narrowly at AO12 when he should have won. I don't see that as "got it more than covered" at all, it's an assumption from the unsustainable purple patch of 2011.

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:26 pm

lydian wrote:Since 2011 Nadal is 4-1 up, plus lost narrowly at AO12 when he should have won. I don't see that as "got it more than covered" at all, it's an assumption from the unsustainable purple patch of 2011.

I don't really see it like that Lyd.

by YvonneT Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:35 pm

I'm confused by the 4-1 H2H since 2011 - is this just on clay i.e. excluding the AO2012? I think that does confirm Nadal is the clear favourite on clay, but isn't relevant to any other surface.

by lydian Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:36 pm

No it isn't relevant to other surfaces per se, but neither can someone therefore say the opposite that Djokovic has his number.

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:38 pm

socal1976 wrote:The margin is tighter between Rafa now and his nearest competitor on clay than it has been for his entire career, although that margin still exists.

Socal, I am always worried when Nadal faces Djokovic, since 2011 anyway.
I always feel like it is Nadal's responsibility to come up with something out of comfort zone, while Djokovic's tactics I think are pretty much standard (of course execution is a difficult issue).
This puts undue pressure on Nadal... that he simply doesn't have against Federer, or Murray etc.

Before RG 2013 I had convinced myself that Nadal did not stand a chance, I had watched Nadal in R1 R2 and really really feared for him. Luckily he managed to raise his level which meant he could compete, which really really surprised me.
The day before I watched Serena vs Eranni and thought it would be similar to Djokovic Nadal, I don't remember being so downbeat before a match has started ever. Then I watched Troy three times and tried to convince myself Prince Hector was Nadal for some reason... this is not a normal pre-match reaction from me, and I think that shows how much fear I had for that match. I think I even messaged HM with some clips from Troy, although I can't remember because I was in a bit of a paranoid state.

But when Nadal failed to serve out the match, and then lost the TB in the 4th set, and then went a break down in the fifth set I totally gave up hope of Nadal winning, and I think most people did too (considering the mental scars he holds vs Djokovic). Yet he somehow managed to believe, fightback; and have the mental strength to win, I still can't believe it.
What really sums up why I am such a Rafa fan is his reaction when he missed the break point at 3-4 30-40 in the fifth set. If you remember he looked up and screamed, I remember thinking 'Why are you bothering screaming, you've already lost the match.' Somehow he didn't think so, and somehow Djokovic fell over the net, and somehow Nadal found a way. His winners ratio in the fifth set was the highest, than any other set.

I don't know whether Nadal will be able to beat Djokovic again, he has to play his best tennis to have a chance- that's all I can say.

by lydian Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:48 pm

Djokovic pushed Nadal hard at Hamburg on clay in 2006. Nothing is new.

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:50 pm

lydian wrote:Djokovic pushed Nadal hard at Hamburg on clay in 2006. Nothing is new.

We see this differently again then I guess Wink

A lot his new. Djokovic's consistency while attacking is improved since then, his serve has improved since then, his defence has probably improved since then, his mentality has also improved since then etc.

by lydian Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:55 pm

He pushed Nadal really hard in 2006 means Djokovic has always been a threat.
Djokovic had MPs vs Nadal at Madrid 2009 on clay.

This threat is not new. Djokovic may have improved but its not like he wasn't a threat on clay before is it.

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 10:55 pm

Ah yes, I always recognise he's been a threat.

by socal1976 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 11:36 pm

Red wrote:
lydian wrote:Djokovic pushed Nadal hard at Hamburg on clay in 2006. Nothing is new.
We see this differently again then I guess

A lot his new. Djokovic's consistency while attacking is improved since then, his serve has improved since then, his defence has probably improved since then, his mentality has also improved since then etc.

Djokovic's first victory over Nadal came on clay came in 2011, and since he has backed it up with two more victories. I don't know how exactly threatened Nadal was by Djokovic on clay in 06 and so forth, he certainly has closed the gap with Nadal quite a bit in recent years. I think Red you would agree that at no point in Nadal's 8 years run at he French open has the gap between him and his top rival on clay been this thin.

by User 774433 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 11:43 pm

Socal- in 2011 the gap was quite large between him and his top rival on clay... in Novak's favour.

It's fantastic that he's been able to turn it around to this extent- says a lot about Nadal's character.

by socal1976 Tue 11 Jun 2013, 11:46 pm

Red wrote:Socal- in 2011 the gap was quite large between him and his top rival on clay... in Novak's favour.

It's fantastic that he's been able to turn it around to this extent- says a lot about Nadal's character.

Yes he played a much smarter match tactically against Djokovic, served much better especially early on and broke up his tendency to serve and hit repetitively to Novak's backhand.

by Henman Bill Tue 11 Jun 2013, 11:48 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:
socal1976 wrote:PS.

BB the Djokovic fan club meetings are every Thursday nights GMT 500pm, we have tea knowing how you abstain from the devil's sauce.
By the way, Socal, here's the agenda for this Thursday's meeting:

5:00 pm - Cup of tea, welcome new member bogbrush.
5:15 pm - Initiation of bogbrush. He must perform a hilarious impersonation of a tennis player. Comedy wig to be provided.
5:30 pm - Reflections on The Shot and its impact on post-war western culture.
6:00 pm - Update on the Chairgate Investigation. Special Agent Red to join via web conference.
6:30 pm - Rip our shirts off.

That was pretty good. I enjoyed that.

by bogbrush Wed 12 Jun 2013, 12:26 am

HM Murdoch wrote:
socal1976 wrote:PS.

BB the Djokovic fan club meetings are every Thursday nights GMT 500pm, we have tea knowing how you abstain from the devil's sauce.
By the way, Socal, here's the agenda for this Thursday's meeting:

5:00 pm - Cup of tea, welcome new member bogbrush.
5:15 pm - Initiation of bogbrush. He must perform a hilarious impersonation of a tennis player. Comedy wig to be provided.
5:30 pm - Reflections on The Shot and its impact on post-war western culture.
6:00 pm - Update on the Chairgate Investigation. Special Agent Red to join via web conference.
6:30 pm - Rip our shirts off.

I am honoured.

May I perform my tweener for the society?

by socal1976 Wed 12 Jun 2013, 1:36 am

Red wrote:
socal1976 wrote:The margin is tighter between Rafa now and his nearest competitor on clay than it has been for his entire career, although that margin still exists.
Socal, I am always worried when Nadal faces Djokovic, since 2011 anyway.
I always feel like it is Nadal's responsibility to come up with something out of comfort zone, while Djokovic's tactics I think are pretty much standard (of course execution is a difficult issue).
This puts undue pressure on Nadal... that he simply doesn't have against Federer, or Murray etc.

Before RG 2013 I had convinced myself that Nadal did not stand a chance, I had watched Nadal in R1 R2 and really really feared for him. Luckily he managed to raise his level which meant he could compete, which really really surprised me.
The day before I watched Serena vs Eranni and thought it would be similar to Djokovic Nadal, I don't remember being so downbeat before a match has started ever. Then I watched Troy three times and tried to convince myself Prince Hector was Nadal for some reason... this is not a normal pre-match reaction from me, and I think that shows how much fear I had for that match. I think I even messaged HM with some clips from Troy, although I can't remember because I was in a bit of a paranoid state.

But when Nadal failed to serve out the match, and then lost the TB in the 4th set, and then went a break down in the fifth set I totally gave up hope of Nadal winning, and I think most people did too (considering the mental scars he holds vs Djokovic). Yet he somehow managed to believe, fightback; and have the mental strength to win, I still can't believe it.
What really sums up why I am such a Rafa fan is his reaction when he missed the break point at 3-4 30-40 in the fifth set. If you remember he looked up and screamed, I remember thinking 'Why are you bothering screaming, you've already lost the match.' Somehow he didn't think so, and somehow Djokovic fell over the net, and somehow Nadal found a way. His winners ratio in the fifth set was the highest, than any other set.

I don't know whether Nadal will be able to beat Djokovic again, he has to play his best tennis to have a chance- that's all I can say.

This is a good and honest post Red, of course I don't feel that confident when Novak plays Nadal either. Sure, I do think Novak is more likely to win as of late, but this match is basically like that close loss Nadal had in AO 2012. Was it a hard loss, absolutely, but is it a bar to Rafa winning a slam on hardcourt? We are talking about one or two big points in both matches going either way. There seems to be this consensus before the match that Novak would win, with 60 percent predicting his victory. Now he loses 9-7 in the fifth after being up and all of sudden he has to get lucky or wait for Nadal to get injured? Nadal is the best clay courter in the world, but Novak on his day can beat him and yes I think over 5 sets on clay. I also think Nadal can beat Djokovic on any surface as well, although Novak would be favored on hardcourt and indoor.

by HM Murdock Wed 12 Jun 2013, 8:52 am

I think the Nadal v Djokovic match up more than any other is fought in the mind.

Both are mentally tough players but, against each other, they seem to make more uncharacteristic mistakes.

For Novak we saw him touch the net and last year at RG it was double fault after double fault.

For Rafa, think of that forehand it plonked wide at AO12. In consecutive matches he has served for a set or the match (2nd set at MC and 4th set at RG) and was broken and lost the set on a tie break.

I think they both know that the other is currently their toughest opponent. They know that if they don't grab their moment when it comes, the match may be lost. It's the one who deals with this better who wins.

by Jahu Wed 12 Jun 2013, 12:21 pm

In the other news Djoko is recharging his batteries on holiday with his brother, playing some war games.

Djokovic - where to now? - Page 2 O9im20

by socal1976 Wed 12 Jun 2013, 5:23 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:I think the Nadal v Djokovic match up more than any other is fought in the mind.

Both are mentally tough players but, against each other, they seem to make more uncharacteristic mistakes.

For Novak we saw him touch the net and last year at RG it was double fault after double fault.

For Rafa, think of that forehand it plonked wide at AO12. In consecutive matches he has served for a set or the match (2nd set at MC and 4th set at RG) and was broken and lost the set on a tie break.

I think they both know that the other is currently their toughest opponent. They know that if they don't grab their moment when it comes, the match may be lost. It's the one who deals with this better who wins.

Its always a close affair, as you say Novak has the game and athleticism to do it and so does Rafa. I think it comes down to the player who on that day hits his shots well in off. I still believe that if Novak brings his A game and Rafa his A game that most of the time Novak wins. Particularly off the clay. Nadal was just freer and also played his best match tactically against Novak. He broke the patterns of play that he used in MC that blew up in his face. He wasn't scared to hit up the line or cross with the backhand. He used the down the line fh more effectively. Also Nadal served more body serves and serves to Djokovic's forehand. So on that day Nadal executed better and had the better gameplan, but still he won by the smallest of margins.

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