Australia vs British and Irish Lions - 22nd June : TEST 1 BUILDUP

First topic message reminder :

So, it's only a week to go before the first Lions test for 4 years.

Gatland has a host of injuries and a game against the Brumbies to manoeuvre while deciding the 23 players who will take to the pitch next Saturday.

Christian Wade and Brad Barritt have both been called up to cover for injury concerns over Jamie Roberts, Manu Tuilagi, Tommy Bowe and George North


My team for Saturday

1. Maku Vunipola
2. Tom Youngs
3. Adam Jones
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Tom Croft
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. George North (Simon Zebo)
12. Jonathan Davies
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Richard Hibbard
17. Alex Corbisiero
18. Dan Cole
19. Richie Gray
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Ben Youngs
22. Owen Farrell
23. Manu Tuilagi/Stuart Hogg


Thoughts?

No, they still have Mitchell and Giteau after that Taylor.

Pretty gutted. We should've won that. Oh for a Halfpenny type kicker - left 14 points on the field.  Still, not a bad effort considering the injuries the Wallabies suffered during the game and Michael Hooper playing at IC.  Gotta feel for KB. Also CL, after missing his debut last season because of injury and lasting only 50 seconds. Awesome debut from Izzy. Overhyped? I think not. Well played the Lions.

LondonTiger wrote:As Geech is saying, Joubert and Poite will have very different interpretations of the breakdown - which really is where we were struggling with the ref.

More to the point, aussies and new zealenders are one and the same and as such Pollock was always going to favour australia.

Is it true BOD made 11 tackles and missed none?

Knowsit17 wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:Very lucky, we should have walked all over them, I think its fair to say if Aus were at full strenght we would have struggled.

Lets hope we pull it together for the next Test

But then this wasn't a full-strength Lions side either so the debacle would continue either way imo.

No problem with winning it like that. The Aussies themselves have snatched countless games at the death and Lions all but let them do it again. Thought Pollock certainly did all in his power to make sure of that. So a win's a win, roll on Melbourne 

To be honest mate I think we were with the squad we have (apart from Tommy Bowe) I would have started with that team

Healy aswell Victor

Well, I'm worried, we were lucky to win that. There was no sign of any forward physical dominance from us and outside of North's run I thought our backs looked comparitively inert.

If Phillips is to start next week he has to stop keep on going round the fringes himself, he got smashed back pretty much every time.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Healy aswell Victor

Corbs is better imo

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Is it true BOD made 11 tackles and missed none?

plays more like a backrow these days.

Yep, won two turnovers that he wasn't allowed.

Number 7 shirt should be his

Warburton top tackler

He has had to do a lot of work to allow Croft to defend wider

I think Croft had a good game, in the lineout and defending the quick Aus backs, but if we want a cleaner breakdown we need to bring in a big tackling 6, SOB or Lydiate - or play Warbs at 6 and bring Tips to 7.

Might impact the lineout, but Tipuric can be used as a jumper, or perhaps bring Parling into the second row?

It's a problem

SecretFly wrote:Yep, won two turnovers that he wasn't allowed.

Number 7 shirt should be his

Bring Lydiate in for Croft. Then lets see if O'Driscoll still has it as an offensive player in the center position.

I thought the pack as a whole played pretty well, the scrum after the subs was less stable and we struggled to adapt to the ref but I thought that contributed to penalties more than slower ball. Personally, it was due to our style of play in large parts of that game, playing tight abrasive stuff makes it much harder to generate quick ball. I also dont think Phillips helped at times.

My thoughts, before I've read anybody else's:

Well won, the Lions, good to start with a win. The manner of it, however is a worry. To put it in context, the Aussies had 2 quite kickable chances to win the match at the end and missed a further 8 points through JOC's boot early on. They deserved to win frankly, even if in parts of the game it seemed like only Genia and Folau were keeping them in it. They also lost 3 top level kickers to injury (1, their first choice I am certain, in the first minute), the one they finished with has barely kicked at all this season and JOC was clearly struggling with his overall game with the pressure of playing 10 without the 2nd playmaker of LLF outside him the whole match (though he grew into it). Their backline finished with a flanker and scrum half in the centre. We should have been out of sight and punished them in that last 20 minutes.

Everyone thought we would boss the scrums- we had advantage in the first half but never domination and tehy were better than us at the end there, or smarter at least. Pollock refs them differently to other refs though so that won't necessarily be the case next week. We also need to play the ref better - he had his own interpretation in the breakdown which was 100% consistent even if I disagree with his principles. The Aussies played him well, we did not. You can argue taht both sides should have had a yellow. However, some things we did very well, like the lineout and some players were fantastic. we cut off tehir attack's space (you can't shut out players like Genia, Folau and Beale, it is impossible) excellently and Sexton managed the game well.

15- Barnes for Australia made some tame kicks and was burnt by North, but was solid. Halfpenny was the match-winner for us with his boot and made one lovely break. Beale will start 15 next match, IMO, even if Barnes is fine (I think he won't be) because they need the players at 10/12. Beale showed how dangerous he is in attack today though he will be gutted with his misses with the boot.

14- Folau is utter class, we need to find a way to stop them using him as a weapon. Great defence to hold up North too. If JOC hadn't been struggling early on and/or LLF or another playmaker-kicker were at 12 then he could have done even more damage. Cuthbert took his chance brilliantly though he made a few errors too.

13- AAC was solid as ever. Dislocated his shoulder and played on, but might miss next week depending how it goes. That would be a huge loss for Australia. BOD gave away a ton of penalties and missed some tackles but was smart in attack and Pollock does ref the breakdown differently to other refs.

12- LLF, so unlucky and losing him so early will have utterly changed the Aussie gameplan. McCabe was solid and kept the Lions under control in his place and was also unlucky! Don't know if any of them will make it, McCabe's removal looked precautionary though. Might see JOC at 12 next match if all 3 other options are still hurt. That doesn't bode well as I think he will play with more confidence there than he did today. Davies was solid but not spectacular, did his basics.

11- Ioane was pretty quiet, North was rampant and utter class and we need the same again from him next week.

10- JOC struggled early on for lots of understandable reasons and his kicking game was off. As Australia grew in the latter stages I think he ran a lot straighter and better and played a better all around game and his passing troubled the Lions a far bit. Need to see how the injuries pan out but could see Toomua or Cooper inside JOC at 12 next week, which will be hard to defend against. Sexton was superb in the second half, great passing, decisions and attacking kicks.

9- Genia. Best 9 in the world by a million miles. Kept Aussies in the game in the middle part. Few if any flaws. Phillips tried to carry the ball a bit too much early on and as predicted it didn't work. Missed Genia but anyone would have. Grew a bit later on and used his pack well but not his best game. The ball he delivered was ok though.

8- Palu - didn't notice him a huge amount, will watch again though. Heaslip was immense, our best forward, though he shouldn't have let Genia pick his pocket.

7- Hooper. I see why he was picked over Gill (Pollock doesn't believe in counter-rucking or turnovers) and he was OK, a danger in attack. Did ok at centre. Gill might start next week with a different referee. Warbs had a decent game at 7 and slowed ball well and a very good game as captain I thought.

6- Mowen- kept Phillips under wraps very very well, really good game for me at the ruck too. Croft did a bit in the loose, though I think he missed some cover tackles, vital in the lineout. In retrospect, Lydiate to counter Genia might have helped us.

5- Horwill. Lead well from the front and really felt for him at the end. A credit to his country. POC was OK though I didn't see him that much, will watch again. Good in lineout.

4- Douglas - didn't notice much from him but the Aussies in general did well in the scrums and the tight (mauls etc). AWJ had an athletic, strong game across the whole park and deserves his place

3- Alexander- did well in the scrum and wasn't beaten at all, especially later on. Jones would have liked to punish his opposite number more than he did

2- Moore- thought he was fantastic, gritty in the set piece, in the tight, in defence, led by example and some nice hands in the loose. Youngs had a good game too, esp in the lineout, though will also have wanted to pressurise the Aussie scrum some more

1- Robinson. Survived Jones well and nice play in the loose. Corbs also made some fantastic runs

I must have been watching a different game to others. I decided to concentrate on Croft and Phillips as they were the players most likely to attract criticism irrespective of how they did.

I thought Croft was very effective in defence today, getting involved in tackling and rucking with frequency.

Nice to be able to beat the Aussie's and a Kiwi in one game though.

I'm also sure Australia will win the next Test, they came so close when by all rights they should have been stuffed with those injuries. If new players come in, like Gatland says it will disorganise and disrupt things a bit but at least they will be able to play to their starting gameplan rather than everything being screwed within 1 minute and it will disorganise and disrupt things less than playing a flanker in the centre! They will be incredibly fired up too

Feckless Rogue wrote:Nice to be able to beat the Aussie's and a Kiwi in one game though.

Which Kiwi?

Deans

The fact the ref had different rules for each team I think the Lions should have done much better and closed the game out but not making the changes when they did was plain stupid. The Lions were way on top in the scrum, the front row was going well but typical Gatland, all off and we start to struggle. I hope the Lions change the back row Croft out on the wing again and screwed up a good chance, Heaslip did better as the game went on apart from giving the penalty away at the end, the ball should have gone.

Phillips was not great today but made some good tackles 5 out of 10 performance.

The second row was very good but AWJ going off was daft he has hell of an engine and it showed when he went off.

The back three did very well over the game, Cuthbert dropping the ball did not help but the state of the pitch affected a lot of the play causing errors.

Sexton did well overall just made the one mistake and varied his kicking well.

My MOTM was J Davies he seemed to be everywhere, had the front row stayed on Corbs may have deserved it.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Nice to be able to beat the Aussie's and a Kiwi in one game though.

Which Kiwi?

I assumed he meant Pollock

I thought Pollock was very consistent in his refereeing, we should have adapted to it

I really think we have no right to complain about the ref at all

I'm not so sure ... Oz got a penalty for holding on when they seemed to have the same body position that BOD got pinged for.

Heaf wrote:I'm not so sure ... Oz got a penalty for holding on when they seemed to have the same body position that BOD got pinged for.

Didn't see that but I certainly had no complaints with the ref from what I saw. Will be a different game at the breakdown next week anyway

.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Heaf wrote:I'm not so sure ... Oz got a penalty for holding on when they seemed to have the same body position that BOD got pinged for.

Didn't see that but I certainly had no complaints with the ref from what I saw. Will be a different game at the breakdown next week anyway

Why?

Would have done Aussie ratings but it was a small tele, difficult to pick out individuals you weren't familiar with.

1. Corbisiero 8 - part of dominant scrum, good carrying as well. Good decision Gatland.
2. Youngs 7.5 - hit lineouts, ferocious in the loose.
3. Jones 7 - dominant scrum
4. AWJ 6.5 - not flashy but got through the workload
5. POC 7 - called lineouts well and was tireless
6. Croft 6 - good at the lineout but a bit quiet in general. Didn't actually steal any ball so not sure he was really needed for this test
7. Warburton 6.5 - did well enough, good tackling but failed to impose any turnovers
8. Heaslip 8 - immense effort and also did well at lineout
9. Phillips 5 - sluggish and outplayed by Genia
10. Sexton 7.5 - was quiet in the first half, and didn't actually play that much at first receiver but he showed his class in the second half along with some mighty choke tackles, which Gatland had obviously hidden for today
11. North 7.5 - kept Ioane in his pocket. He also scored a try if I recall correctly...
12. Davies 6 - never quite adjusted to the position change but at times linked well with BOD
13. BOD 8.5 - My MOTM. 11 tackles, 0 missed - some great hands in attack and was very harshly penalised at the breakdown
14. Cuthbert 7 - a bit nervous in the first half but ran some nice lines in the second
15. Halfpenny 8 - he won us the match and has undoubtedly become our most important player

Vunipola, Cole and Hibbard struggled

SOB, Youngs and hopefully Bowe next week, please.

Btw thought BOD found himself in the 12 channel quite often with Davies outside?

Ref is a cop out and bullshoite excuse. Lions were obliterated at the breakdown, all our backrow were pretty poor, Warburton was playing as a 6, all well and good but it's not his job. Heaslip showed some decent things.

Our backs were inept a combination of Phillips' service being worse then usual and Sexton standing too deep. The fact that we had the same number of carries but nearly 150m less then Oz says it all. Lineout went well, but all the big scrums we lost.

Australia deserved to win that game, the fact that the Lions couldn't break down a backline that a had a 7 at centre for half an hour is a joke.

1. Corbs = 8/10
2. Youngs = 8/10
3. Adam = 7/10
4. Alun Wyn Jones - 7/10
5. POC - 6/10
6. Croft - 6/10
7. Warbs - 7/10
8. Heaslip - 7/10
9. Phillips - 5/10
10. Sexton - 7/10
11. North - 8/10
12. Davies - 6/10
13. BOD - 6/10
14. Cuthbert - 6/10
15. Halfpenny - 8/10

Bench - 3/10 - No impact

SecretFly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Heaf wrote:I'm not so sure ... Oz got a penalty for holding on when they seemed to have the same body position that BOD got pinged for.

Didn't see that but I certainly had no complaints with the ref from what I saw. Will be a different game at the breakdown next week anyway

Why?

Pollock is well known for the way he referees the breakdown, which is giving huge advantage to the attacking side, Joubert is next and is different, he's more whistle-happy and more likely to whistle for holding on and the Aussies struggle with him as a ref

ChequeredJersey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Heaf wrote:I'm not so sure ... Oz got a penalty for holding on when they seemed to have the same body position that BOD got pinged for.

Didn't see that but I certainly had no complaints with the ref from what I saw. Will be a different game at the breakdown next week anyway

Why?

Pollock is well known for the way he referees the breakdown, which is giving huge advantage to the attacking side, Joubert is next and is different, he's more whistle-happy and more likely to whistle for holding on and the Aussies struggle with him as a ref

Yeah.  I was just making the point that the reason it'll be different is because it'll be a different ref.  So the idea that the Lion's players were suffering from Pollock's interpretations is a viable one.  But yes, they should also have known about Pollock's interpretations, espeically when it was highlighted duirng the week that Gatland had a chat with him to clear all that up.

AWJ rated higher than POC? Dear god. Just look at the stats. In every conceivable facet of the game POC outperformed him.

BOD had a better game at 7 than Warburton. That says it all about the captains performance- tackled but did absolutely nothing else. BOD was the Lions best player alongside Corbs who was absolutely superb.

If we wanted to have a guy who did nothing but tackle we would have started Lydiate, agree there Hook.

That was a poor team performance, created little all game, our scrum was dominant for the most part but all the big ones were lost, or we struggled.

Above stats go to show that Warburton was playing the role of a blindside, while Croft was doing I don't know what....

O'Driscoll had an immaculate game in defense,  O'Connell was absolutely everywhere, a lot of big tackles, faultless in the lineout along with Youngs and was second top carrier after the excellent Corbisiero as well.

I thought Heaslip, Tom Youngs, Corbisiero, Sexton and our wingers had very good games.

Heaslip read the game beautifully always in the right place at the right time.

I can see why people thought Phillips had a poor game but he was doing so much good work tying in the Aussies around the breakdown that meant they had less forwards drifting into their backline.

It might be interesting to see how Youngs would run the game from nine but my criticism wouldn't be with Phillips decisions today but more with the lack of support he received we need another bruiser close to rucks, Lydiate or SOB would be huge, or tips to seven and Warburton at blindside.

Being a good tackler should be a given for a backrower.

I dont know why people are so impressed with Warbuton.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Being a good tackler should be a given for a backrower.

I dont know why people are so impressed with Warbuton.

I think had he been playing 6 it would have been a decent performance, but he wasn't he was playing 7 and I don't really see what Croft contributes at 6.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Being a good tackler should be a given for a backrower.

I dont know why people are so impressed with Warbuton.

I think had he been playing 6 it would have been a decent performance, but he wasn't he was playing 7 and I don't really see what Croft contributes at 6.

In Warbs' defence, competing at the breakdown was not allowed by either side, all he could have done would have been giving away kickable penalties like BOD, for all his class in that area, did

Could we get over this idea that tackles made decides how good a game you've had.

Tackles made is decided by the other team, which channels they're running at, how often they attack it etc.  It can sometimes mean you're covering some other guy's tackling duties but that's a hard one to do stats on - or do they?

If we're going to give "ooh Ahh" grades for tackling then it should always come from tackles missed. 

Tackles Missed:
Halfpenny 1
Sexton 1
Phillips 1
Corbisiero 2
Warburton 1
Hibbard 1

Everyone else succeeded in doing the number of tackles they attempted.

I was more alarmed by Warburtons lack of leadership today. His captaincy left a lot to be desired. POC and BOD were leaders today. Warbirton was meek, quiet and not up to the task today.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Being a good tackler should be a given for a backrower.

I dont know why people are so impressed with Warbuton.

I think had he been playing 6 it would have been a decent performance, but he wasn't he was playing 7 and I don't really see what Croft contributes at 6.

In Warbs' defence, competing at the breakdown was not allowed by either side, all he could have done would have been giving away kickable penalties like BOD, for all his class in that area, did

Well said CJ

I was about to reply the same.

Leinsterfan as you said a backrow has to be a tackler. Warburton topped the list today..! He and Heaslip had very good games today in my opinion. Always in the right place at the right time.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I was more alarmed by Warburtons lack of leadership today. His captaincy left a lot to be desired. POC and BOD were leaders today. Warbirton was meek, quiet and not up to the task today.

In which respect?he seemed to communicate well with the referee without antagonising him, when we were struggling to adapt the referees breakdown interpretation. More criticism should be justly aimed at our strategist and analysis for not understanding Mr Pollock and the way he reads the game.

SecretFly wrote:Could we get over this idea that tackles made decides how good a game you've had.

Tackles made is decided by the other team, which channels they're running at, how often they attack it etc.  It can sometimes mean you're covering some other guy's tackling duties but that's a hard one to do stats on - or do they?

If we're going to give "ooh Ahh" grades for tackling then it should always come from tackles missed. 

Tackles Missed:
Halfpenny 1
Sexton 1
Phillips 1
Corbisiero 2
Warburton 1
Hibbard 1

Everyone else succeeded in doing the number of tackles they attempted.

Given the fact that people should have been defending the Folau tries and the Beale break and the earlier JOC break, there were more missed tackles than that. Many more

ChequeredJersey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Could we get over this idea that tackles made decides how good a game you've had.

Tackles made is decided by the other team, which channels they're running at, how often they attack it etc.  It can sometimes mean you're covering some other guy's tackling duties but that's a hard one to do stats on - or do they?

If we're going to give "ooh Ahh" grades for tackling then it should always come from tackles missed. 

Tackles Missed:
Halfpenny 1
Sexton 1
Phillips 1
Corbisiero 2
Warburton 1
Hibbard 1

Everyone else succeeded in doing the number of tackles they attempted.

Given the fact that people should have been defending the Folau tries and the Beale break and the earlier JOC break, there were more missed tackles than that. Many more

I assume a missed tackle is a direct bypass rather than just a guy running after a player he can't catch.  But Missed tackles is the route to judge on for sure.

BTW, can you get meters run (without the ball) stats?  See if we can isolate the star strikers who wait around the box from the journeymen who do all the leg work to help the ball get to him.

I don't agree that when a 7 makes the most tackles in the game he is doing the job of a 6. That is a strange way of looking at it.  A lot of opensides are often the top tackler in the back row.  Why do you think Richie McCaw is known as "Captain Tackles"?  Chris Henry often makes the most tackles for Ulster and yet we applaud him as one of the best 7s in Ireland.

I haven't seen the game yet, but it sounds strange to criticise Warburton for making the most tackles.  Very strange.

And as expected, after a quick look at the stats, Michael Hooper (the Aussie 7) was the top tackler in the back row for Australia.  He is usually the top tackler for the Waratahs too.  In fact I am fairly sure most of the players in the top tackle stats in the Super 15 are opensides.  So I am guessing all of these players are playing the role of a 6 rather than a 7? 

Doubtful.

Chequeredjersey, I really think you need to look at the game if you think BOD gave away a ton of penalties and missed tackles. He gave away two dubious penalties and missed no tackles. I had to stop reading your review after that.