Jake White for Lions coach 2017???

by fa0019 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 1:25 pm

Losses happen on Lions tour... its not a major issue unless we make it one. The game was scheduled wrong.... the strongest side with the best coach in the SH, 5 days before the 1st test was always going to be a struggle.

Anyhow, thought a little break from the "I hate you... I hate you more" blame game threads which looks like they're gathering momentum ahead of the 1st test selection choices.

Jake White for Lions coach 2017??? He probably not going to get the AUS job (MacKenzie looks like he's in pole).

Postives

One of the best coaches in rugby.
Has had success against all teams both in club and test rugby.
An outsider... no bias towards any nation.
Has a real drive to play test rugby against NZ again (he never won in NZ... a big regret of his)
He will never get the SA job again... options limited.
No obvious other choices with neutrality and top tier test success seemingly emerging (Nick Mallett perhaps too).

Negatives

Not from the home nations... doesn't understand the complexities of the lions as a player.
Would probably bring a SCW approach... mentioned in the past.
No personal relations with players (Gatland had Wasps, Wales).

I reckon the pros outweight the cons easily. Irvine should tap him up in the pre match dinner.

by SecretFly Tue 18 Jun 2013, 2:48 pm

I think if that very Lions team had played the Warratahs they'd have been destroyed actually. So that opinion, only mine, tempers my view of what the Brumbies achieved.

Largely, I'd say it presumes a lot of failing amongst the existing 'home' Nation sides in the next few years if you think they'll need to call on White for the Lions job. Which is quite disappointing considering a WC falls between then and now, a European one too mind you..and based in England.

by GunsGerms Tue 18 Jun 2013, 2:58 pm

It was the weakest Lions team we could have fielded bar a few players. Bad result but not the end of the world. As for Jake White to coach the Lions, hopefully not. There are better candidates. Schmidt and Lancaster would be well ahead of him right now anyway and Gatland may well be still around in four years and he would also be a better option.

Credit to White for doing a great job at the Brumbies. Must say though I never really rated him beforehand. For a good few years under White the Boks played the worst rugby I have ever seen them play in my lifetime. They have not been than bad before or since. Yes he won the WC albeit aided by a very soft draw which really put the gloss on a very average head coach tenure.

by tigertattie Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:03 pm

I'll say yes just because he is not affiliated to one of the four nations!

by mckay1402 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:04 pm

The Brumbies really should have won by more. I'm not saying that on the balance of play but they are a club side who play together regularly against a scratch side who have only just met (in many cases) and with two retired players in. They will see it as a win against the Lions but in actual fact it was a close win when it ought to have been more comfortable so no not Jake White for the Lions 2017 thanks.

by fa0019 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:09 pm

The problem for any home nations coach is neutrality and a forced sabbatical such as Gatlands. I think Gatland will have some problems too when he gets back. Player management on his own players who will be out of favour come this test series will be key to Wales RWC15 campaign and Gatland keeping his job. It cost Henry's his.

White should take a lot of credit for his time with the boks... he took a team from their worst ever low in 03 and 6th in the rankings to 3N champs the next year and a RWC in 07.

Guns - if you can find it trying looking for some bok rugby between 04-06. It was quite entertaining stuff... the France tour of SA in 05 was especially great.

We should hire the best man for the job, if White continues his impressive form with the brumbies I don't see why he shouldn't be considered... if he is available???

by Scrumpy Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:19 pm

Please let it be a British or Irish coach, at least they understand the traditions of the Lions

by debaters1 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:27 pm

Yes Guns, while it wasn't Fijian Sevens rugby, it was, most crucually, winning rugby. And dealing with the politics of SARU and all that goes with that, having his job tendered during an RWC campaign and such the like. No, saying he is avaerage is like calling Declan Kidney an egomaniac and EOS a consumate delagator.

by jeffwinger Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:30 pm

fa0019, in the OP you mention this game being scheduled wrong, but I would say that from an Australian perspective they scheduled if just right. We're all moaning about the standard of opposition and arguing that they are disrespecting the Lions etc etc. but the ARU are merely using the control they have to give themselves the best possible chance of a series victory. Can we really blame them?

They remove their top 25/31 players from action as soon as the Lions touch down in Oz then set up games against weaker opposition early in the tour to prevent the Lions team gelling in tough matches.

They then arrange the game they expect to provide the sternest test immediately before the test match when the Lions are most likely to be carrying injuries and looking to rest/protect their top players, meaning it'll be the strongest club side vs the weakest Lions side. All this days before the first test, an ideal time to stop the Lions' momentum and give them no opportunity to gain it back. I don't believe for 1 second that this wasn't thought through and that the scenario that has played out was not the one the ARU hoped for.

The ARU have played a blinder and its up to Deans to capitalise on this advantageous position he has been provided with.

by GunsGerms Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:31 pm

debaters1 wrote:Yes Guns, while it wasn't Fijian Sevens rugby, it was, most crucually, winning rugby. And dealing with the politics of SARU and all that goes with that, having his job tendered during an RWC campaign and such the like. No, saying he is avaerage is like calling Declan Kidney an egomaniac and EOS a consumate delagator.

No it wasnt. SA under White dropped to their lowest world ranking of the professional era. They dropped as far down as 5th.

by fa0019 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:33 pm

VictorU3 wrote:Please let it be a British or Irish coach, at least they understand the traditions of the Lions

You mean like Henry, Gatland or Schmidt (potential candidate 2017)???

by fa0019 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:40 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
debaters1 wrote:Yes Guns, while it wasn't Fijian Sevens rugby, it was, most crucually, winning rugby. And dealing with the politics of SARU and all that goes with that, having his job tendered during an RWC campaign and such the like. No, saying he is avaerage is like calling Declan Kidney an egomaniac and EOS a consumate delagator.

No it wasnt. SA under White dropped to their lowest world ranking of the professional era. They dropped as far down as 5th.

Guns... not sure if you're right there.... He took over the Boks after the RWC03. Their ranking points was 81.23 and they were 6th by the time he played their first game. It was above 84 in every year up to the end of his tenure where he got them to No.1

Technically you may be right that they got to 6th courtesy of Ireland beating England at twickenham in 2004 6N.... but he hadn't played a game yet so really his tenure began in June04... not Jan04.

by debaters1 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:48 pm

Moreover Germs, I'd imagine it was the November 2005/2006 (not sure which year it was) period when they dropped lowest but he was blooding players on the end of season tour prior to the RWC, which they won. Easy draw or not, you still have to beat the teams you play.

I wouldn't have him as first choice for 2017 but I wouldn't despair if he were selected either. However calling him average is, to me, very very wide of the mark.

by MMaaxx Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:53 pm

White is a great coach, it was clear as Mallets assisent and also when he led the junior Boks to the world champs title.

To have pulled the Boks up from the Harry Viljoen, Streuli years was a huge effort. He blooded many of the guys that became Boks legends.

In fact much of the success the Boks have had post 07 was a result of White. I am prety sure the Boks would've achieved more had White stayed on as coach. I see P Div's time as a failure as that was an exceptional squad he took over at a time when NZ and Aus weren't particularly strong. P Div has essentially left HM a depleted squad and I feel as though the Boks are starting from scratch almost.

But what White has achieved at the Brumbies is perhaps his greatest achievement. They were a fractured unit full of infighting and very limited players. He galvinised them, made the tough calls, brought pride and history back into the club by reinstating team legends like Larkham etc. Last year they were ment to be the weakest squad and favorites for the wooden spoon. Many of the players who are now walabies or almost there were nonamers when White took over.

He would do a great job with the Lions without doubt.

by RubyGuby Tue 18 Jun 2013, 3:56 pm

fa0019 wrote:
VictorU3 wrote:Please let it be a British or Irish coach, at least they understand the traditions of the Lions

You mean like Henry, Gatland, Woodward or Schmidt (potential candidate 2017)???

by fa0019 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:02 pm

Here are the ranking points and position of SA whilst under Whites tenure come the end of these series/tournaments.

RWC 07 - 90.81 (1st)
3N 07 - 85.36 (4th)
AI 06 - 84.69 (4th)
3N 06 - 87.05 (3rd)
AI 05 - 88.76 (2nd)
3N 05 - 88.99 (2nd)
AI 04 - 85.78 (4th)
3N 04 - 85.49 (5th)

Take over June 04 - 81.23 (6th)

so the lowest White got under his tenure was 84.69 duringt the 2006 AI series when he left his top 30 players at home to prepare for the long 2007 RWC season (it paid off).... prior to this (where he lost matches to both IRE & ENG with their 2nd/3rd XVs) their ranking points was 87.05.

Can any other coach in rugby say they improved the ranking points position of their team by >9.50 points from the time they took over to the time they left??? Thats a mighty big leap.

by Sin é Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:04 pm

I'd give a fair bit of credit to Laurie Fisher, the Brumbies Forwards coach. He was the Munster forwards coach for their win over Australia. Paul O'Connell has great things to say about him as to what a great coach he is at the breakdown - and the Brumbies showed that in this game. (Fisher was also the Munster Forwards coach for their near miss against the ABs).

by GunsGerms Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:07 pm

fa0019 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
debaters1 wrote:Yes Guns, while it wasn't Fijian Sevens rugby, it was, most crucually, winning rugby. And dealing with the politics of SARU and all that goes with that, having his job tendered during an RWC campaign and such the like. No, saying he is avaerage is like calling Declan Kidney an egomaniac and EOS a consumate delagator.

No it wasnt. SA under White dropped to their lowest world ranking of the professional era. They dropped as far down as 5th.

Guns... not sure if you're right there.... He took over the Boks after the RWC03. Their ranking points was 81.23 and they were 6th by the time he played their first game. It was above 84 in every year up to the end of his tenure where he got them to No.1

Technically you may be right that they got to 6th courtesy of Ireland beating England at twickenham in 2004 6N.... but he hadn't played a game yet so really his tenure began in June04... not Jan04.

http://www.irb.com/rankings/archive/date=2007-03-26/histranking.html

'07 they dropped to 5th behind Ireland, France, NZ and Aus.

Around then they were actually quite poor by SA standards. They may have been a team in transition but White had been in the job two years and SA were very beatable.

by GunsGerms Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:08 pm

MMaaxx wrote:White is a great coach, it was clear as Mallets assisent and also when he led the junior Boks to the world champs title.

To have pulled the Boks up from the Harry Viljoen, Streuli years was a huge effort. He blooded many of the guys that became Boks legends.

In fact much of the success the Boks have had post 07 was a result of White. I am prety sure the Boks would've achieved more had White stayed on as coach. I see P Div's time as a failure as that was an exceptional squad he took over at a time when NZ and Aus weren't particularly strong. P Div has essentially left HM a depleted squad and I feel as though the Boks are starting from scratch almost.

But what White has achieved at the Brumbies is perhaps his greatest achievement. They were a fractured unit full of infighting and very limited players. He galvinised them, made the tough calls, brought pride and history back into the club by reinstating team legends like Larkham etc. Last year they were ment to be the weakest squad and favorites for the wooden spoon. Many of the players who are now walabies or almost there were nonamers when White took over.

He would do a great job with the Lions without doubt.

I agree his work with the Brumbies is his best achievement by far.

by fa0019 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:09 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
VictorU3 wrote:Please let it be a British or Irish coach, at least they understand the traditions of the Lions

You mean like Henry, Gatland, Woodward or Schmidt (potential candidate 2017)???

See what you did there Smile

although Woodward was a lion in 80 and 84... He got 2 caps in 80.

I was reading an article from Jake White recently and he said he still agree's Woodward went about the 05 lions in the right way... but that he changed his mind on the team he wanted to use (as he and White discussed in detail about how they would combat the ABs) and White believes that cost him. Apparently SCW went down to SA and met with White to discuss this in detail.

by broadlandboy Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:10 pm

This will make some laugh but I would prefer Martin Johnson. Reasons being he knows the Lions efos,will not be coaching a home union nation,IIRC he only lost 2 matches in his last year of coaching England after taking it on from a very low point but was not the Medias favourite. Would need some good coaches to back him up but would have the choice from the Home Unions

by fa0019 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:13 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
debaters1 wrote:Yes Guns, while it wasn't Fijian Sevens rugby, it was, most crucually, winning rugby. And dealing with the politics of SARU and all that goes with that, having his job tendered during an RWC campaign and such the like. No, saying he is avaerage is like calling Declan Kidney an egomaniac and EOS a consumate delagator.

No it wasnt. SA under White dropped to their lowest world ranking of the professional era. They dropped as far down as 5th.

Guns... not sure if you're right there.... He took over the Boks after the RWC03. Their ranking points was 81.23 and they were 6th by the time he played their first game. It was above 84 in every year up to the end of his tenure where he got them to No.1

Technically you may be right that they got to 6th courtesy of Ireland beating England at twickenham in 2004 6N.... but he hadn't played a game yet so really his tenure began in June04... not Jan04.

http://www.irb.com/rankings/archive/date=2007-03-26/histranking.html

'07 they dropped to 5th behind Ireland, France, NZ and Aus.

Around then they were actually quite poor by SA standards. They may have been a team in transition but White had been in the job two years and SA were very beatable.

sort of distorting the truth a little there Guns. That was after the 6N in 07 which SA do not play. IRE were able to overtake them without SA returning a challenge. The only time you can really look at a year objectively is at the end of the 3N (now RC) as both hemisphere tournaments have now been completed and after the end of the RWC/AI's series.

By the end of the AI's 06 series they were 4th and by the end of the 3N 07 tournament they were also 4th (and again White left behind his best 25 players from the away tour of the 3N also to prepare them for the RWC).

by GunsGerms Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:18 pm

broadlandboy wrote:This will make some laugh but I would prefer Martin Johnson. Reasons being he knows the Lions efos,will not be coaching a home union nation,IIRC he only lost 2 matches in his last year of coaching England after taking it on from a very low point but was not the Medias favourite. Would need some good coaches to back him up but would have the choice from the Home Unions

Johnsons biggest failure with England was that because he was heavily involved with the team as a player not too long before his tenure he was way too biased toward players that he was familiar with rather than testing new talent and evolving the team. I think because of this he also failed to introduce a level of dicipline that Lancaster has sucessfully introduced. Johnson was too inexperienced and ultimatly the job fell on his lap too soon.

Im sure he would make a good manager and will prove it down the line. Surprised he hasnt been offered work since.

by SecretFly Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:18 pm

Why don't we wait and just see who does what, when, where, how and why in the next few years?

Or are we going to choose the Lions XV for the first Test of 2017? Wink

by fa0019 Tue 18 Jun 2013, 4:22 pm

funny you should mention that Fly as chaps like Roberts and Phillips have been chosen nearly off the back of their 09 performances.

Roberts has been uninspiring for a long time and had a bad 6N tournament. Philips hasn't been firing on all cylinders and is the wrong type of player to play AUS anyhow.
Big guys do well against SA... at least we like to think so anyhow, the mistake we're making now is that we're applying what worked 4 years ago against the boks to AUS of 2013. A different approach is required.

by dallym Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:17 am

read/hear lots of comments from fellow NZers, along the lines of 'ABs coach must be a New Zealander, though I'd make an exception for JW'

He's a top coach. Deserves to be with an international side

by Taylorman Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:56 am

Yep so would I. The NZ only thing is diminished in virtually every other sport we play...just a matter of time. In fact I think coaches should start applying for the job. We' be narrow minded not to want the best and that isnt normally the AB way.

The only thing thats missing is that unlike anyone else who's ever done the job he won't have ever as a kid 'dreamed' of being an All Black. Ever.

Thats the only sticking point for me...

by GunsGerms Thu 20 Jun 2013, 10:36 am

fa0019 wrote:funny you should mention that Fly as chaps like Roberts and Phillips have been chosen nearly off the back of their 09 performances.

Roberts has been uninspiring for a long time and had a bad 6N tournament. Philips hasn't been firing on all cylinders and is the wrong type of player to play AUS anyhow.
Big guys do well against SA... at least we like to think so anyhow, the mistake we're making now is that we're applying what worked 4 years ago against the boks to AUS of 2013. A different approach is required.

Not a fan of adapting your team based on your opposition. I think the Lions should play their own game, get their own house in order first and let the Aussies worry about them. Philips is a big game player and was ultimatly the right choice. I did hear that he has a slight knock so hopefully that wont effect his game.

by fa0019 Thu 20 Jun 2013, 10:40 am

I guess we'll have to see how things pan out on Saturday now Guns. By the looks of it he is getting targeted a lot both to try and get him out of his game and to provoke a reaction from him.
Same with Farrell... once you get that reputation.

by GunsGerms Thu 20 Jun 2013, 11:15 am

Philips was a little feisty on the last Lions tour too. Though the Boks did work really hard trying to wind the Lions up. Reference DuPlessis making an idiot of himself standing over Bod with clenched fists and Brussow bouncing Martin Williams like a ball.

He gets fired up and is a agressive guy. I like that. As long as he stays in control it can only be a good thing. POC recently commented that the Irish guys all get really fired up before games much more so than other players. I think the Lions all need to get very fired up before this one.

by fa0019 Thu 20 Jun 2013, 11:27 am

true... we've been lacking in the last 2 tours as both NZ and SA were far far more fired up then we were.
I do think that we were brutal in the first 2 mins in defence in NZ but the BOD hit really shook the players and we simply lost it thereafter.

How we were not fired up vs. the boks was very disappointing. Chaps like AW Jones really let down the side that day... he especially was there to bring out the fire.. only 3-4 actually stood up (one of them being Phillips). Had the boks not taken the foot off the gas it could have been a very embarassing day.

It really shows what it means to the opposition to play the lions at test level.

Ireland were very fired up in the 6N vs. England... I though PoM was going to explode at some point. Sometimes its good, sometimes its bad... but overall I wouldn't mind it if the Lions were in a similar mode to Ireland that day (well for the first 10 at least).

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