Jiffy didn't want to play for Wales

Jiffy admits he did not want to play for Wales after returning to rugby union from league in 1995.

Strange time to release this story just before a Lions test?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22955489

Think he comes across very well in that article.

The timing of the "story" is because BBC Wales has scheduled a documentary about him for tomorrow evening.  I don't see that it has anything to do with the Lions test?

offload wrote:The timing of the "story" is because BBC Wales has scheduled a documentary about him for tomorrow evening.  I don't see that it has anything to do with the Lions test?

Hershey is just stirring the pot.

Also if you believe his and the Beeb's headline it sounds like it's going to be a dig at somebody, but it's actually a very good piece to read.

?

It's always weird reading stuff by Jiffy. In my head I can just hear his voice as I read the words.

It's a terrible affliction. Like an audio book that I can't switch off.

 thats true, I do the same.

Amazing that he left 6 months before the lions tour.... couldn't he have signed for the next season? In those days I guess going on tour would have had its problems itself... no income for 2-3 months, a family to feed etc.

The Lions had Chalmers & Andrew at 10, both similar type players, a more attacking 10 would have been useful but Andrew ran the backline well in the end so it doesn't really matter.

Don't blame him.....

fa0019 wrote:The Lions had Chalmers & Andrew at 10, both similar type players, a more attacking 10 would have been useful but Andrew ran the backline well in the end so it doesn't really matter.

Andrew was only there because Paul Dean got injured. At the time, Chalmers wasn't regarded as similar to Andrew, he was seen as a more attacking full back. Another possible call-up when Dean was injured was Stuart Barnes but Andrew was seen as being more of a like-for-like replacement for Dean.

Craig Chalmers was a good tactical kicker but I wouldn't say he was ever an attacking 10. Similar to a player like ROG in the modern game.

All this is old news, I own both his autobiography's.  What has come out in the recent press is a lot more timid that what he wrote in the first book when he left to join rugby league.  He basically tore the WRU to bits in that book.

Wales picked a small pack for Romania when Jonathan asked for a big one to compete up front, he was ignored and Wales got smashed.  Then the coach and WRU tried to blame Jonathan to save their back sides.  He also slammed the WRU for the 1988 tour to New Zealand, when they played 3 games a week, Monday, Wednesday and Saturday.  They also put them in wooden summer accomidation huts, during the winter without heating with soaking wet bed sheets where the players basically shivered all night and couldn't sleep.  Then the WRU wondered why Wales ended up losing most of the games!

I'm not sure if younger fans realise how good he was. He was one of the great flyhalves of the 80's. Hos only weakness was the tackle, and given that most flyhalves of the day were crap tacklers anyway (i.e. Fox, Botha, Porta, etc) it probably says more about the standard of the rest of the team. He was one of those players you enjoyed watching, even if they played for the opposition. Didn't have a bad league career either.

fa0019 wrote:Craig Chalmers was a good tactical kicker but I wouldn't say he was ever an attacking 10. Similar to a player like ROG in the modern game.

At the time though, as Rugby Fan says, he was deemed a more attacking choice. What was he then, 20? His later career suggested this impression may have been inaccurate, but that was the way it was.


It should be noted that initially Rob Andrew got into the England team on the back of Varsity match performances whjere he was a running and attacking 10. Pragmatism often wins out.

Jiffy was down to captain that Lions team so he must have been extremely p1553d off with the WRU (which he was) to give that up to go north.

doctornickolas wrote:Jiffy was down to captain that Lions team so he must have been extremely p1553d off with the WRU (which he was) to give that up to go north.

I read a great deal about his reasoning in Ieuan Evans Biography. It was a very tough time the WRU were stubborn and living in cloud cuckoo land compared to today.

This does strike me as a pointless article lead by a title snapped out of context, to promote the documentary.

maestegmafia wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Jiffy was down to captain that Lions team so he must have been extremely p1553d off with the WRU (which he was) to give that up to go north.

I read a great deal about his reasoning in Ieuan Evans Biography. It was a very tough time the WRU were stubborn and living in cloud cuckoo land compared to today.

This does strike me as a pointless article lead by a title snapped out of context, to promote the documentary.

I don't think Hersh wants to promote the documentary

LondonTiger wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Craig Chalmers was a good tactical kicker but I wouldn't say he was ever an attacking 10. Similar to a player like ROG in the modern game.

At the time though, as Rugby Fan says, he was deemed a more attacking choice. What was he then, 20? His later career suggested this impression may have been inaccurate, but that was the way it was.


It should be noted that initially Rob Andrew got into the England team on the back of Varsity match performances whjere he was a running and attacking 10. Pragmatism often wins out.

Morne Steyn was the same.... attacking 10 right up until his time in the Bulls academy.... Meyer beat that out of him.

I started watching/playing rugby around the time Craig Chalmers was coming into the Scotland team, around the late 80s. Perhaps he was deemed more attacking then Andrew but then again so is Owen Farrell. His boot was always his primary game. Was it possible to be a less attacking pivot then Andrew (come the late 80s/early 90s as you mentioned)???

After the 1st test McGeechan certainly changed his tune however. Same in 93, same in 09.

doctornickolas wrote:Jiffy was down to captain that Lions team so he must have been extremely p1553d off with the WRU (which he was) to give that up to go north.

Really? Surprised at that... would have made the squad, probably the team but captain???

Risca Rev wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Jiffy was down to captain that Lions team so he must have been extremely p1553d off with the WRU (which he was) to give that up to go north.

I read a great deal about his reasoning in Ieuan Evans Biography. It was a very tough time the WRU were stubborn and living in cloud cuckoo land compared to today.

This does strike me as a pointless article lead by a title snapped out of context, to promote the documentary.

I don't think Hersh wants to promote the documentary

It gets so difficult when these guys who get banned come back and change their names. Luckily they don't seem to change themselves. One troll has been banned about six times on 606V2 and now posts as his original BBC606 name... Crazy, when banned they should just leave us alone. They were banned for good reason, no one wants them on the site.



Well, anyhow the documentary is on BBC Wales tonight.

JONATHAN DAVIES: A TRIMSARAN BOY - Channel: BBC One Wales

Date: Thursday, 20 June Time: 21:00 BST

Sure to be very entertaining...!

Jiffy is my most favourite player ever, and I do not say that lightly, I grew up watching rugby in the 80's and he was just so special to watch, I will never forget when Wales won the triple crown at Twickenham in 1988 Jiffy was superb, he was easily the fastest 10 of that era and when he went to league I was gutted, I will never forget that interview on the bride outside the arms park because the WRU would not let him inside,  he was such a talent and Wales have not had a 10 as good as him since.

LordDowlais wrote:Jiffy is my most favourite player ever, and I do not say that lightly, I grew up watching rugby in the 80's and he was just so special to watch, I will never forget when Wales won the triple crown at Twickenham in 1988 Jiffy was superb, he was easily the fastest 10 of that era and when he went to league I was gutted, I will never forget that interview on the bride outside the arms park because the WRU would not let him inside,  he was such a talent and Wales have not had a 10 as good as him since.

He was great against England in 1988 but his performance against Scotland that year was pure genius.  Not just his brilliant grubber try but also those two late drop goals to win the game. So many international 10s just don't back themselves these days to kick those sort of match-winning drop goals (unlike Jiffy used to or Wilkinson RWC 2003). It's such an important potential match winning skill but lots of good 10s hardly kick drop goals these days. Just look at our RWC 2011 exit against France...

Dammit, why did you have to bring up drop goals.

The flash backs from 24th October 1997 at the Stade de France have come flooding back. I will need to find a darkened room.

As to jiffy, yes in that 88 season he was sublime. However when the big offer came I cannot blame him for taking it.

LondonTiger wrote:Dammit, why did you have to bring up drop goals.

The flash backs from 24th October 1997 at the Stade de France have come flooding back. I will need to find a darkened room.

As to jiffy, yes in that 88 season he was sublime. However when the big offer came I cannot blame him for taking it.

As yes, Jannie de Beer... Well I wasn't going to mention him during this time of Lions fraternity but it's is hard to mention drop goals without thinking of that game!

You're dead right about Jiffy, Welsh rugby and most of all its administration were in such a mess at the time that I don't think many Welsh fans would begrudge him one bit for going north at the time (or others like Devereux, Gibbs, Bateman etc). Such a shame that union didn't see him at his peak though.

Just a fabulous player. I'm not sure that his finest hour wasn't on tour in New Zealand with Wales. Two of the most one-sided internationals you could ever wish to see, but Jiffy was a one-man army of resistance, playing with a verve and bloody-mindedness that no-one else could emulate. As a 10, he was in a league of his own in the Northern Hemisphere for about three years, after Rutherford lost his pace.

I know that Stephen Jones (the journalist) has his critics, but when he wrote of JD as the greatest of all Welsh stand-offs, it didn't seem like hyperbole at the time. Obviously, Barry and Phil take some beating, but they did play in a rather better side than Davies.

Cadair Idris wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Jiffy is my most favourite player ever, and I do not say that lightly, I grew up watching rugby in the 80's and he was just so special to watch, I will never forget when Wales won the triple crown at Twickenham in 1988 Jiffy was superb, he was easily the fastest 10 of that era and when he went to league I was gutted, I will never forget that interview on the bride outside the arms park because the WRU would not let him inside,  he was such a talent and Wales have not had a 10 as good as him since.

He was great against England in 1988 but his performance against Scotland that year was pure genius.  Not just his brilliant grubber try but also those two late drop goals to win the game. So many international 10s just don't back themselves these days to kick those sort of match-winning drop goals (unlike Jiffy used to or Wilkinson RWC 2003). It's such an important potential match winning skill but lots of good 10s hardly kick drop goals these days. Just look at our RWC 2011 exit against France...

Yes you are correct he was genius in that game, I remember him running down the touch line just about keeping his balance and he did one of those under arm, around the back type passes before he was able to set up for his drop goals, and Iuean Evan's try, well you will not see one as good as that again.

Here's a good montage of his best tries from both union and league days.  His excellent try vs NZ on tour in 1988 (or was it 1989?) is just before 2 mins on the youtube clip.  Just some brilliant tries, easy to forget how good he was since especially when lots of people moan about his TV punditry these days (though that's a different matter to be fair).  Incredible pace - I can't think of a modern day 10 who has quite his acceleration or pace over distance (so many long range tries...) if you watch this video, though others may disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt4AIRMzJ2o

Cadair Idris wrote:Here's a good montage of his best tries from both union and league days.  His excellent try vs NZ on tour in 1988 (or was it 1989?) is just before 2 mins on the youtube clip.  Just some brilliant tries, easy to forget how good he was since especially when lots of people moan about his TV punditry these days (though that's a different matter to be fair).  Incredible pace - I can't think of a modern day 10 who has quite his acceleration or pace over distance (so many long range tries...) if you watch this video, though others may disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt4AIRMzJ2o

A lot of the comments on his commentary come from people who don't realise what a talented player he was. Most have likely never seen him play.

His frustrations in commentary are excellent, he sees the game as though he is actively taking part in it and we get a lucky armchair ride as to how one of the greatest flyhalfs sees the game.

If old enough, you may remember Cliff Morgan commentating. If very old you may have been lucky enough to see him play. He was a master flyhalf and an idol of any aspiring back. Again we were given an insight to his thinking with the occasional quip of "it's on here".

Never thought of myself as very old............. Bugger.

blackcanelion wrote:Never thought of myself as very old............. Bugger.

You get used to it. Especially when you figure out the age of the average poster on this board.

Cadair Idris wrote:Here's a good montage of his best tries from both union and league days.  His excellent try vs NZ on tour in 1988 (or was it 1989?) is just before 2 mins on the youtube clip.  Just some brilliant tries, easy to forget how good he was since especially when lots of people moan about his TV punditry these days (though that's a different matter to be fair).  Incredible pace - I can't think of a modern day 10 who has quite his acceleration or pace over distance (so many long range tries...) if you watch this video, though others may disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt4AIRMzJ2o

Probably Danny Cipriani would have the gas on him, can't think of any others mind (doesn't mean he's good enough to clean Jiffy's boots though.... not good enough to clean Dan Park's boots even!)
We have to remember that Cipriani has been a pro for years and Jiffy was tearing up teams with probably minimal speed and gym work compared.

I am old enough to remember Cliff Morgan's commentary, not his playing career mind. I hold Jiffy in the same esteem as Barry John and Phil Bennet, and I can categorically say that this is not an over exaggeration, there has not been a better 10 in the British Isles since.

I think Wilkinson deserves to be in that list myself. He may not have had attacking talents of such players above but he had other talents which made him one of the best players of his era.

fa0019 wrote:I think Wilkinson deserves to be in that list myself. He may not have had attacking talents of such players above but he had other talents which made him one of the best players of his era.

Wilko was/is a world class steady eddie, he will always nail his kicks and he will put his body on the line in defense, he does not shine though in a week side, look at him at Newcastle, Jiffy played in one of the worst Welsh sides ever, he was electric, whenever he had the ball you knew something good was going to happen, I will not take anything away from Wilko though, what he has achieved is nothing short of amazing, but when you have packs that England had in his prime and Toulon have now, you know you are going to be able to achieve more, Jiffy was the best 10 about at the time, the same as Wilko, but Jiffy had a lot more va va voom.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think Wilkinson deserves to be in that list myself. He may not have had attacking talents of such players above but he had other talents which made him one of the best players of his era.

Wilko was/is a world class steady eddie, he will always nail his kicks and he will put his body on the line in defense, he does not shine though in a week side, look at him at Newcastle, Jiffy played in one of the worst Welsh sides ever, he was electric, whenever he had the ball you knew something good was going to happen, I will not take anything away from Wilko though, what he has achieved is nothing short of amazing, but when you have packs that England had in his prime and Toulon have now, you know you are going to be able to achieve more, Jiffy was the best 10 about at the time, the same as Wilko, but Jiffy had a lot more va va voom.

Didn't you watch the RWC07??? That was his greatest achievement without a shadow of doubt. He dragged that poor poor side to respectability. They got done 36-0 in the pools vs SA without him and came within a sniff of a win in the final... regardless of his timeless performances in the SF for example.

What I'm suggesting is that talent is quantifiable in different ways. He never had great attacking prowess but if you had to trust someone to step up when it counts, he was the man, he still is the man even.

Don't want to take this topic from Jiffy mind... great player, not a fan of his pundit work but he had it all... just a shame he didn't have the players around him to take on the very best.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think Wilkinson deserves to be in that list myself. He may not have had attacking talents of such players above but he had other talents which made him one of the best players of his era.

Wilko was/is a world class steady eddie, he will always nail his kicks and he will put his body on the line in defense, he does not shine though in a week side, look at him at Newcastle, Jiffy played in one of the worst Welsh sides ever, he was electric, whenever he had the ball you knew something good was going to happen, I will not take anything away from Wilko though, what he has achieved is nothing short of amazing, but when you have packs that England had in his prime and Toulon have now, you know you are going to be able to achieve more, Jiffy was the best 10 about at the time, the same as Wilko, but Jiffy had a lot more va va voom.

Didn't you watch the RWC07??? That was his greatest achievement without a shadow of doubt. He dragged that poor poor side to respectability. They got done 36-0 in the pools vs SA without him and came within a sniff of a win in the final... regardless of his timeless performances in the SF for example.

What I'm suggesting is that talent is quantifiable in different ways. He never had great attacking prowess but if you had to trust someone to step up when it counts, he was the man, he still is the man even.
Don't want to take this topic from Jiffy mind... great player, not a fan of his pundit work but he had it all... just a shame he didn't have the players around him to take on the very best.

That is why I said he was/is a world class steady eddie, I do not want to take anything away from him mind, he is the best of his generation, but if your are old enough to be able to have watched Jiffy, he was THE shining light of Welsh rugby in the eighties and he was worth the ticket price alone, nobody can come close to him in ability at 10 since, the closest for me would be Dan Carter in his prime.

VictorU3 wrote:Jiffy admits he did not want to play for Wales after returning to rugby union from league in 1995.

Strange time to release this story just before a Lions test?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22955489

Having just watched the documentary on Jonathan Davies this morning, his main reason for moving back to Wales and to rugby union was to be aroun family as his wife was dying of cancer. Playing for Wales was furthest from his mind for obvious reasons.

I was aware of the passing of his 34 year old wife of cancer in the mid nineties, and many of us in Wales have incredibly aware of the initiatives driven by Davies to help raise both funds and awareness for the cancer charities he works with.

This documentary did a great job showing the hard work of proud rugby players to do so much for people outside of rugby who can benefit so massively.

Good show, really enjoyable watch.

Agree Maesteg it was a really great documentary, would recommend it to anyone not just Welsh fans - you can catch it on iPlayer.

As well as some great clips of his playing career it gave great insight into him as a man and what has driven him. His charity work with Velindre hospital is really impressive but I also found it fascinating that you could see that he still has a competitive edge with his broadcasting and commentary, with him worrying that there'll be more recently retired players trying to take his place. (Shane springs to mind but on the basis of their enforced double act in the 6 nations in Rome when Andrew Cotter fell ill I think Jiffy will be ok on that front..)

I know he's not everyone's cup of tea but I personally have always loved his commentary and it was interesting to hear commentator Gareth Charles say that he's the most incisive co-commentator he's worked with.

PS Maesteg - your earlier comment about Cliff Morgan. Not old enough to have seen him play and having started following international rugby in the early 80s not quite old enough to hear him commentate live, but I was addicted to the "Crowning Years" video (highlights of the 1969-79 golden era) when growing up in the 1980s so have certainly heard his great commentary a good few times!

Cadair Idris wrote:PS Maesteg - your earlier comment about Cliff Morgan.  Not old enough to have seen him play and having started following international rugby in the early 80s not quite old enough to hear him commentate live, but I was addicted to the "Crowning Years" video (highlights of the 1969-79 golden era) when growing up in the 1980s so have certainly heard his great commentary a good few times!

I was given a copy for my birthday a long time ago when I was working in California, from family back home. A great video that really captured that glorious decade for Welsh rugby. Cliffs knowledge as well as great speaking voice were a pleasure.

Despite all Bill McLaren is and always will be the greatest commentator to have ever covered the game. I used to have friends all over the world that wanted VHS copies of Five Nations or tour matches with Bills BBC commentary on them just so they could hear the great man speak.

Jiffy was outstanding as a player and doesn't deserve the criticism his punditry gets from time to time. Back then it was tough to make ends meet if you wanted to play rugby at a high level and came from lowly roots. League was the only option and even then it was poorly paid. I have immense respect for him and the way he has handled very cruel events. His playing career speaks for itself though and no-one can deny just how talented he was.

I am old enough to have seen Cliff Morgan play and he too was in a class of his own. He and Bill McLaren represent a benchmark in commentating that has never been achieved since. Their love of the game shone through and their easy command of the language was a joy on it's own. They were the voices of rugby for so much of my life.

aitchw wrote:Jiffy was outstanding as a player and doesn't deserve the criticism his punditry gets from time to time. Back then it was tough to make ends meet if you wanted to play rugby at a high level and came from lowly roots. League was the only option and even then it was poorly paid. I have immense respect for him and the way he has handled very cruel events. His playing career speaks for itself though and no-one can deny just how talented he was.

I am old enough to have seen Cliff Morgan play and he too was in a class of his own. He and Bill McLaren represent a benchmark in commentating that has never been achieved since. Their love of the game shone through and their easy command of the language was a joy on it's own. They were the voices of rugby for so much of my life.

On match days Cliff used to do a short program on Radio 4, eluding to the hype and contests withing the afternoons game. I could listen to his voice the rest of my life.

The program was great, often interviewing parents or school masters of players with interesting stories to add to the character of the day.

It would be great to see the BBC utilise Eddie Butler or Rick O'Shea in a similar way...

"Sport On Four" I think - but it ran every Saturday. Radio Wales used to have "On the morning of the match" (I think) when Wales played at home. Presented by Alun Williams?

"It would be great to see the BBC utilise Eddie Butler or Rick O'Shea in a similar way..."

Eddie - YES
Rick O'Shea - it's a "NO" from me I'm afraid

"Bill McLaren is and always will be the greatest commentator to have ever covered the game"

For me, he's still the voice of rugby. Was at the Millenium for his last ever game, when the whole stadium sang 'for he's a jolly good fellow'. Very moving - it was real warmth for him from the crowd.

McLaren just loved rugby, full stop. He didn't seem to have an ounce of bias towards any side in anything he said, he loved it all and thats what made him great.

Eddie's lyricism doesn't quite have the natural feel to it sometimes, a little contrived, but he is probably the nearest we've got to those great times. I do get a twinge of nostalgia when Ian Robertson's commentating probably because of the accent plus he's not bad either.

There's an abrasiveness and a 'trying too hard' about many of today's commentators that wasn't there back then. I think Martin Bayfield could be quite good if he got some in game air time.

fa0019 wrote:McLaren just loved rugby, full stop. He didn't seem to have an ounce of bias towards any side in anything he said, he loved it all and thats what made him great.

Aye, and it was interesting that you see the same with Jonathan Davies, his colleagues commenting on how quickly he provides his analysis of what went right or wrong in a passage of play, he knows rugby inside out e is an expert of the highest order. Had some great camaraderie with Bill on the mic back in the day too. As well as some great stuff from bill when JD was playing...

“You’ll notice Davies is standing very deep & that’s because Jones can pass off either hand, just watch this ’Whooosh!!’

aitchw wrote:Eddie's lyricism doesn't quite have the natural feel to it sometimes, a little contrived, but he is probably the nearest we've got to those great times. I do get a twinge of nostalgia when Ian Robertson's commentating probably because of the accent plus he's not bad either.

There's an abrasiveness and a 'trying too hard' about many of today's commentators that wasn't there back then. I think Martin Bayfield could be quite good if he got some in game air time.

I am surprised they can fit Bayfield in the commentators box, he was a "Perambulating lighthouse"

He's fecking huge isn't he? Comes over as very decent bloke.

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:McLaren just loved rugby, full stop. He didn't seem to have an ounce of bias towards any side in anything he said, he loved it all and thats what made him great.

Aye, and it was interesting that you see the same with Jonathan Davies, his colleagues commenting on how quickly he provides his analysis of what went right or wrong in a passage of play, he knows rugby inside out e is an expert of the highest order. Had some great camaraderie with Bill on the mic back in the day too. As well as some great stuff from bill when JD was playing...

“You’ll notice Davies is standing very deep & that’s because Jones can pass off either hand, just watch this ’Whooosh!!’

Davies is the most biased commentator on the BBC and isn't a scratch on McLaren

123456789 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:McLaren just loved rugby, full stop. He didn't seem to have an ounce of bias towards any side in anything he said, he loved it all and thats what made him great.

Aye, and it was interesting that you see the same with Jonathan Davies, his colleagues commenting on how quickly he provides his analysis of what went right or wrong in a passage of play, he knows rugby inside out e is an expert of the highest order. Had some great camaraderie with Bill on the mic back in the day too. As well as some great stuff from bill when JD was playing...

“You’ll notice Davies is standing very deep & that’s because Jones can pass off either hand, just watch this ’Whooosh!!’

Davies is the most biased commentator on the BBC and isn't a scratch on McLaren

Worse than Andy Nicol?