What will the 23-man squad for Saturday look like?

Pinching from our esteemed fellow poster and reigning Mr Know-it-all, for the second test:

LT wrote:OK guys name the 23 man squad you believe will be selected for Saturday. You do not have to differentiate between starters and bench, just name the players. Whoever gets the most right will be known for one week at least as:


Mr (or Ms) Know-it-all.

With two wrong last week, I'm going for the following with a couple of changes:

Lions: Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthbert, Brian O'Driscoll, Jonathan Davies, George North, Jonathan Sexton, Mike Phillips; Ryan Grant, Tom Youngs, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Geoff Parling, Dan Lydiate, Sam Warburton (capt), Jamie Heaslip.

Replacements: Richard Hibbard, Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Richie Gray (token Scot), Tom Croft, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, Tommy Bowe.

Not saying I agree with that selection, but I think that's what FatMan and his cronies will go for

My predictions, not what I would pick, for both sides:

Lions:

15- Halfpenny
14- Bowe
13- O'Driscoll
12- Davies (will not be surprised if it is Manu)
11- North
10- Sexton
9- Phillips
8- Heaslip
7- Warburton (c.)
6- Lydiate
5- Parling
4- Wyn Jones
3- Jones
2- Youngs
1- Vunipola

Hibbard, Grant, Cole, Gray (wouldn't be surprised with Evans), O'Brien (but frankly could be anyone, hardest call to make), Youngs, Farrell, Maitland

Australia (definitely not what I would pick):

15- Beale
14- Folau
13- AAC
12- LLF
11- Tomane
10- JOC
9- Genia
8- Palu
7- Hooper (not surprised if it's Gill)
6- Smith
5- Horwill (captain)
4- Douglass
3- Alexander
2- Moore
1- Robinson

TPN, Kepu, Slipper, Simmons, Mowen, Phipps, Horne, Mogg

I don't think there is anyway Mako isn't starting. Not with him only being benched last week and not playing this week. I also think Croft will start. Otherwise Lydiate would have been pulled off earlier. Other than that I think you're (with what will be picked rather than 'best').

Bench is harder. But I think you're right (other than Lydiate on bench and Grant on bench)

Mako is a player I rate highly, and he will be starting, but he will also be targeted in the scrum. 100% cert. I hope he can step up to "tricks"

1. Maku Vunipola
2. Tom Youngs
3. Adam Jones
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Geoff Parling
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Sam Warburton
8. Jamie Heaslip (I would go Faletau)
9. Mike Phillips
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. George North
12. Jonathan Davies
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh "the boot" Halfpenny

16. Richard Hibbard
17. Ryan Grant
18. Dan Cole
19. Ian Evans (tough one)
20. Sean O'Brien (Tom Croft?)
21. Ben Youngs
22. Owen Farrell
23. Tommy Bowe

Mako
Youngs
Adam
AWJ
Parling
Warburton
Tipuric
Heaslip
Phillips
Sexton
North
Davies
BOD
Bowe
Halfpenny

Hibbard
Grant
Cole
Gray
SOB
Murray
Farrell
Maitland

If Mako and Parling start the BI Lions will lose. Joubert will ping the scrum all day long and Aus have a kicker in this match.

Still that's what the management will pick.

Starting: Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthbert, Brian O'Driscoll, Jonathan Davis, George North, Jonathan Sexton, Mike Phillips; Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Geoff Parling, Tom Croft, Sam Warburton (capt), Jamie Heaslip.


Bench: Richard Hibbard, Ryan Grant, Dan Cole, Richie Gray, Sean O’Brien, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, Manu Tuilagi.
Like the optimism of some of the posters.  I did have a moment of madness when I thought Gatland might go with a left field selection in putting either Matt Stevens or Dan Cole at loose head, but I am hoping that was just my moment of madness.

We have plenty of beef on the bench should that arise

Aus by 10

With Mako and Parling withdrawn from to day's game i think they will both be in the starting 15.

Just how fit is BOD? have feeling Manu Tualaghi will start and BOD on the bench.

Who will be the scrum half, Phillips or B Youngs? that is the 50/50 question for me.

majesticimperialman wrote:With Mako and Parling withdrawn from to day's game i think they will both be in the starting 15.

Just how fit is BOD? have feeling Manu Tualaghi will start and BOD on the bench.

Who will be the scrum half, Phillips or B Youngs? that is the 50/50 question for me.

Either youngs or Murray for me, Phillips was useless and slow last game. Made the wrong decisions, box kicking was also poor.

Youngs and Sexton could really be excellent.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Not saying I agree with that selection, but I think that's what FatMan and his cronies will go for

Classy. I would go for: Halfpenny, Bowe, BOD, Davies, North, Sexton, Youngs, Heaslip, Warburton, SOB, AWJ, Gray, Jones, Youngs, Grant.
Replacements: Mako, Hibbard, Cole, Parling, Faletau, Phillips, Farrell, Tuilagi.

I'm concerned about a small hooker and a not-great scrummaging loosehead together. Youngs has been our only half-decent lineout thrower on this tour so we're stuck there, but the reason Corbisiero jumped ahead of Vunipola was to protect Youngs in the scrum. The smart move would be to elevate Ryan Grant and use Mako off the bench again. I hope they see that.

Its simple really if Gats picks Mako Aus will win. If he does then he must pick Hibbard to at least mitigate Mako's shortcomings.

But he will and he won't, so Aus by 10-15.

Why are we so obsessed with a massive scrum? It's like some people have no confidence in anything beyond it. Plenty of the bigger guys will get pinged too.

The scrum is pretty much a lottery these days.

I think Grant did enough this afternoon to merit the start, he's a better scrummager than Vunipola and Gatland won't want to jeopardise the scrum.

Looks like Parling will start but i'd prefer Gray or Evans, don't get me wrong Parling has had a great season and played well on tour.  But we need more bulk in the boiler-room, our lock combination will be considerably smaller than the Aussies' if Jones starts with Parling.

Don't think Tuilagi did quite enough today to displace Davies, not that I'd mind if he did.  Davies was solid last week and been the form centre on tour, we sacrifice directness for a little more subtlety.

Gatland will give Philips another chance and I'd put pretty good money on Philips getting on the score sheet. Not a big fan because I feel his size masks a pretty poor scrum-half, an average kicking game and ponderous distribution but when he plays well he has a huge impact on games.  Youngs on the bench ready if Philips doesn't respond.

The back-row will be interesting with only Warburton a certainty, the performances of Lydiate, Faletau and O'Brien definitely caught the eye but do Croft and Heaslip deserve to get dropped?  I doubted Lydiate's involvement at the beginning buts he looks to be showing form and I'd be tempted by his defence over Crofts attack, and I've been very impressed with Faletau.  Plus I'd love to see O'Brien come off the bench with 20 minutes to go.

Is Bowe considered fit for this match?  They'd have to be 100% confident he was ready to drop Cuthbert. 

23 spot will be interesting, Maitland did pretty well today but didn't get on at the weekend.  Tuilagi is another option but doesn't provide much cover.  Zebo looks exciting and capable of doing something special. Would love to see Hogg get a chance, can cover fullback, wing, centre, fly-half (quite possibly scrum-half) and he's got the ability to make something happen.

reallybored wrote:I think Grant did enough this afternoon to merit the start, he's a better scrummager than Vunipola and Gatland won't want to jeopardise the scrum.

Looks like Parling will start but i'd prefer Gray or Evans, don't get me wrong Parling has had a great season and played well on tour.  But we need more bulk in the boiler-room, our lock combination will be considerably smaller than the Aussies' if Jones starts with Parling.

Don't think Tuilagi did quite enough today to displace Davies, not that I'd mind if he did.  Davies was solid last week and been the form centre on tour, we sacrifice directness for a little more subtlety.

Gatland will give Philips another chance and I'd put pretty good money on Philips getting on the score sheet. Not a big fan because I feel his size masks a pretty poor scrum-half, an average kicking game and ponderous distribution but when he plays well he has a huge impact on games.  Youngs on the bench ready if Philips doesn't respond.

The back-row will be interesting with only Warburton a certainty, the performances of Lydiate, Faletau and O'Brien definitely caught the eye but do Croft and Heaslip deserve to get dropped?  I doubted Lydiate's involvement at the beginning buts he looks to be showing form and I'd be tempted by his defence over Crofts attack, and I've been very impressed with Faletau.  Plus I'd love to see O'Brien come off the bench with 20 minutes to go.

Is Bowe considered fit for this match?  They'd have to be 100% confident he was ready to drop Cuthbert. 

23 spot will be interesting, Maitland did pretty well today but didn't get on at the weekend.  Tuilagi is another option but doesn't provide much cover.  Zebo looks exciting and capable of doing something special. Would love to see Hogg get a chance, can cover fullback, wing, centre, fly-half (quite possibly scrum-half) and he's got the ability to make something happen.

Plenty of good points there RB...!

You pin pointed some good performances, Gray and Ian Evans played a big part today. Grant scrummages much better with Hibbard and Cole than with Stevens and Best.

In the six nations game Joubert refereed between Wales and Scotland Grant and Euan Murray were penalised severely in the scrums during the first half. This could say two things about Joubert, one that he trust the stronger scrum or two he doesn't like what grant does.

I would personally favour the first answer and back Grant to start thus weekend. Though I would want some power behind him so Evans or Gray to start with AWJ. Evans and Gray both proved as good in the line out as Parling or AWJ. It's a very tough call.

Genuinely not sure who I would pick in the backrow. Faletau was excellent today but will he really be able to unseat the incumbent Heaslip? Croft got some criticism after the first test, but will his ability in the lineout be needed to compensate for the loss of O'Connell? Or will one of O'Brien and Lydiate come in? Both offer very different skills, but both impressed in their own ways today. With Warburton the captain and his relative inability to cover other backrow positions, Tipuric was always likely to be the odd man out, but that's not to say he doesn't deserve a place somewhere. It really is exciting to see the strength of the backrow, so many different options who each bring something unique to the table.

Mako
Youngs
Jones
AWJ
Parling
Croft
Warburton
Heaslip
Youngs
Sexton
Tuilagi
BOD
North
Bowe
1/2p

Cole
Hibbard
Gray
SOB
Murray
Sexton
JD2
Cuthbert

Missing a second prop on your bench, BiGTrev?

15 1/2p
14 Cuthbert
13 BOD
12 Davies
11 North
10 Sexton
9 Phillips

1 Vunipola
2 Youngs
3 Jones
4 Jones
5 Parling (Lord preserve us!)
6 Croft
8 Heaslip
7 Warburton (c)

16 Grant
17 Hibbard
18 Cole
19 Evans
20 Lydiate
21 Youngs
22 Farell
23 Bowe

Glas a du wrote:5 Parling (Lord preserve us!)

What's your issue with Parling...?

I must say after yesterday's game it's a very tough call between the Locks to pick a partner for AWJ.

maestegmafia wrote:

Glas a du wrote:5 Parling (Lord preserve us!)

What's your issue with Parling...?

I must say after yesterday's game it's a very tough call between the Locks to pick a partner for AWJ.

Simple mistake, he meant to put the bracketed comment next to the number 9.

I don't get the hype for Parling I really don't. To misquote Paul McCartney, he'd not the best lock in England's second row.

imo Parling was the stand out and most consistent English forward in the 6N's.  He's had a good tour and I have no problem with him starting with AWJ.  More interesting to see who get's the bench - I'd slightly favour Gray.

My prediction:

Mako, youngs, Jones, AWJ, Parling, Croft, Warburton, Heaslip
Phillips, Sexton, North, Davies, BOD, Cuthbert, 1/2p

Hibbard, Grant, Cole, Gray, SOB, Youngs, Farrell, Bowe


I feel that Gatland has belief in his beliefs and is too stubborn to change right now, so expect the only changes in the starting XV to be caused by injury. My two non-injury changes are on the bench where I feel that keeping Lydiate on for longer than SOB suggests he may well leave the Dragon out, whilst it feels like Bowe was always intended to feature and is now recovered from the hand problem.

My greatest hope is for Ben Youngs to start, he has the skill set to give Genia problems.

My 2nd greatest hope is that Scottish tourists are involved in this test. Our guys have done pretty well on tour and have merited a chance, even if coming from the bench.

My 3rd greatest hope is that an unfit and match cold Bowe is thrown into the test cauldron. The Aussie wingers are electric and caused massive problems on Saturday. Throwing Bowe in there cold would be a grave error.

offload wrote:imo Parling was the stand out and most consistent English forward in the 6N's.  He's had a good tour and I have no problem with him starting with AWJ.  More interesting to see who get's the bench - I'd slightly favour Gray.

That was Launchberry. It should be easy to tell them apart, one of them's got a beard FFS!

:thumbsup:Glas my man - Didn't England have the worse line out stats in the 6 Nations?

Glas a du wrote:

offload wrote:imo Parling was the stand out and most consistent English forward in the 6N's.  He's had a good tour and I have no problem with him starting with AWJ.  More interesting to see who get's the bench - I'd slightly favour Gray.

That was Launchberry. It should be easy to tell them apart, one of them's got a beard FFS!

Glas - I don't agree. I thought Parling had an excellent 6N's. He and Robshaw were the only two England forwards who played well at the MS. Launchberry was hopeless that day.

:thumbsup:Parling had a good 6 Nations and hence a Lions selection

Perhaps they will have both Lydiate & O'Brien on the bench?

Parling goes to 5. Croft stays at 6 but if Jones or Parling goes off you could put Lydiate in the scrum and Croft is better then both come lineout time.... could improve our flexibility. O'Brien gives a lot of impact options from 6-8 if required.

I'd still prefer Gray to Parling myself but given Rowntree said Parling is next in line its unlikely.

Espn are saying that parling, vunipola and Bowe will be the only changes to the XV. I dont get the negativity around parling. I think he has been very good and if we get him and croft starting I think we have an excellent chance to go after the Oz lineout. I would hope to put them under more pressure here than the scrum

15 Tuppence (allowing for inflation)
14 Bowe
13 Manu
12 Davies
11 North
10 Farrell
9 Youngs

1 Vunipola
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Jones
5 Parling
6 Croft (c)
8 Falatau
7 L'Idiot

16 Grant
17 Hibbard
18 Jones
19 Evans
20 Warburton
21 Murray
22 O'Driscoll (if he continues to hide he'll be on a RyanAir flight home)
23 Hogg

I completely understand the negativity about Parling. He is a very understated kind of player. He does not look for massive hits like Courtney Lawes, he does not strike people as a hugely physical player such as Bulldog Attwood, is not easy to spot on camera like Baby Face Launchbury. He does not tend to run in tries from the half way line like Ed Slater.

This all means that English fans want him knowwhere near the team. So if his own fans do not rate him, why should anyone else?

What I suspect though is he just gets on with the nuts and bolts of the game, making it easier for his fellow players to shine, and puts in the sort of shift that coaches notice, especially when they endlessly re-watch the tapes and review the telemetry data etc.

Someone said on this board that he is kind of like a Kiwi lock. Not showy but does the job. I view that as a compliment.

The problem for Parling is not necessarily him, its his counterpart in the 2nd row.

Matfield had Bakkies, Kruger has Etzebeth, Whitelock had Thorn.

Launchbury and Lawes are scrum lightweights at the moment and combined with Parling they don't offer England as much support as required. Lancaster needs these two to bulk up or pass them over... no point being able to put in kodak hits if you are constantly getting smashed in the scrum.

Parling to start, Grey on the bench.

VictorU3 wrote:Parling to start, Grey on the bench.

Gray is exactly what Parling isn't - flashy. He thinks he's a flanker and he plays like a flanker with a lock's number on his back.

I agree graytiger

Did no one else see that Phillips was well marshalled by the Ozzies? They played him so much recently that they know how to neutralise him.
That in turn slowed down the feed to Sexton and the rest of the back line.
Youngs added a bit more zip to the play when he came on.

If Ben Youngs doesn't start then I would like to see him come on a bit sooner in the game - especially if it looks like Phillips is being hobbled in the same way as the 1st test.

fa0019 wrote:The problem for Parling is not necessarily him, its his counterpart in the 2nd row.

Matfield had Bakkies, Kruger has Etzebeth, Whitelock had Thorn.

Launchbury and Lawes are scrum lightweights at the moment and combined with Parling they don't offer England as much support as required. Lancaster needs these two to bulk up or pass them over... no point being able to put in kodak hits if you are constantly getting smashed in the scrum.

Agree with that FA - that's why England were looking closely at Attwood on tour, and were hoping that Slater from Tigers would go (scuppered by injury).

Some people have Lydiate starting. Do people honestly think that Gats is going to do that given our troubles at the breakdown last week? This is not a wum - a serious question - I would be amazed if he started.

The real unknowns, I think, relate to Croft and to Philips. Many sections of the press (especially SH) have shouted for each of them to be replaced. What I do associate with Gatland, however, is not really caring too much about the press. I think O'Brien made an unarguable case for inclusion somewhere in the 23 but I couldn't choose whom out of Lydiate, Croft and SOB will lose out. There's no way Warbuton won't be playing and despite his MoM performance on Tuesday, I think that swapping Heaslip for Faletau is a step too far in terms of changes for Gatland.

I honestly think that Gatland will maintain 11, 14 and 15 as they currently are - the only change being Bowe on the bench.

We already know that the boiler room will be AWJ and Parling and I have no doubt whatsoever that despite displaying the least strong aggregate form out of all the locks on the tour, Evans will be on the bench.

I think that Gatland will start with Vuni with Grant on the bench although for the reasons already articulated by a number of people, I think that's a mistake unless Vuni thinks he can last an hour and is wearing his finest scrummaging trousers.

propdavid_london wrote:Did no one else see that Phillips was well marshalled by the Ozzies?  They played him so much recently that they know how to neutralise him.  

Yis.

Guys aren't we allowed to criticise certain Lions anymore?

VictorU3 wrote:Guys aren't we allowed to criticise certain Lions anymore?

It's getting a little tiresome when people (and some posters from all 4 Lions nations are doing it) are letting national bias get in the way of common sense.

When is the 23 match day squad out?

VictorU3 wrote:When is the 23 match day squad out?

Thursday, probably about UK lunchtime Victor.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:Guys aren't we allowed to criticise certain Lions anymore?

It's getting a little tiresome when people (and some posters from all 4 Lions nations are doing it) are letting national bias get in the way of common sense.

Hi Pete C - I was just making an observation from the first Test - has nothing to do with nationality of the players.