Warburton is out of the final test...

by maestegmafia Mon 01 Jul 2013, 7:42 am

First topic message reminder :

British and Irish Lions captain Sam Warburton is out of the deciding Test against Australia in Sydney on Saturday with a hamstring injury.

by maestegmafia Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:05 pm

BOD and McCaw have been two of the most influential captains of the last decade. We are lucky to be able to pick BOD.

by GunsGerms Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:13 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:GG, I agree that it is almost a certainty that Drico will captain the side, that doesn't make it the right call.

Its the only call. Drico has almost 80 international caps as captain. He is the most experienced captain in the world by a long way. McCaw has 57 caps as captain.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:19 pm

Since I would start Tuilagi, I would make Halfpenny captain. He has been superb and like sam might not be a big talker but if everyone played like he does/did the series would have been won convincingly by now.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:22 pm

We need to make sure we don't leave ourselves bereft of leadership in the pack. Having BOD as captain is great, but he won't be in the scrums or lineouts or all the rucks and tight play, so we need both a lot of authority from our 9 and a leader in the pack. On that basis, dropping both Parling and Heaslip is unthinkable

by Ulster12 Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:25 pm

What we need is Sexton to have a performance like the HC final a few year ago against Northampton. Didn't matter that his pack was getting marmelised, he took the game by the scruff of the neck and saw his team home!

by SecretFly Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:27 pm

Sexton is a natural Captain in waiting (talks, plots, controls - has been bollicking the Leinster guys for seasons now) if some of you want to drop Drico before the game itself that is... Wink

by SecretFly Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:28 pm

sorry Ulster...didn't see you there. We think alike.

by Cyril Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:35 pm

I'd be happy with Sexton being captain. He's a very forceful character.

by Scrumpy Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:38 pm

It doesn't matter who we pick if Gatlands game plan is the same.

The Aussies must be wondering how they haven't won the series already. Headscratch

by Ulster12 Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:53 pm

He doseant even need to be skipper, just boss the game from 10. Don't think he's really suited to a negative kick chase game,same with BOD,Leinster are at their best when it's all out attack for 80 minutes.

If we are going to play a kicking defensive game we may as well have Farrell there with Barritt at 12! But don't think we have enough dominance at the set piece to pull that off.

by RubyGuby Mon 01 Jul 2013, 1:58 pm

I like the Sexton idea, I've campaigned for him to be Captain for the past 2 years - Intelligent leader who can motivate

by lostinwales Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:03 pm

VictorU3 wrote:It doesn't matter who we pick if Gatlands game plan is the same.

The Aussies must be wondering how they haven't won the series already.

Well but for Davies (unfortunately for the wrong reasons) the Aussies would have won the series already

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:09 pm

Question: For all that I thought Lydiate had a good game on Saturday, it is the defensive side of the game at which he really shines. But it seems to me that the Lions are unlikely to win the final game and the series unless they have the ball (and don't hoof it back to the Wobblies), so an attacking game plan with ball largely in hand is required, supported by set-piece strength and dynamic ball carrying, and I can't marry that up with Lydiate at blindside - thoughts? Harsh on one of the Lions' better players from last Sat? Lydiate performs well enough for Wales with a similar game plan?

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:18 pm

To me Warburton did a great job making key tackles and turnovers last week. When he went off it seemed no coincidence that Gill started to punish the Lions. SOB can be that threat in terms of turnovers. Lydiate can be a threat on defence. Croft worked well with Warburton at turnovers but with Tipuric wouldn't nearly be as effective. It's all about balance for me and I haven't seen enough of Heaslip in terms of ball carrying as I'd like to see. Faletau, Tipuric and SOB for me would be the backrow I'd go for but that leaves the problem of who covers the backrow for injury. If SOB gets injured, you lose a lot of flexibility. Croft or Lydiate on the bench offer different things but they're thin in terms of versatility. I think SOB's versatility makes him more attractive to Gatland on the bench sadly. Tipuric could be cover for 6 or 7 which might see him as an outsider to be on the bench. Much will depend on what changes Gatland envisages or if players are purely there for cover.

by flyhalffactory Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:21 pm

AsLong

The premise is that we win the ball first.............

Lydiate hightlighted on Saturday that with Warburton the Lions won turnovers gaining possession, then it was up to the rest to redistribute at speed (of course GatlandBall Lite dictated otherwise).

Ironically SOBs best game was when he worked in tandem with Lydiate (as captain). I would select 6 Lydiate. 7 SOB. 8 Faletau. Tips is too lightweight especially if you have a generally passive tackling 8 like Toby, but a damn good bench option when fatigue sets in and play opens up.

by lostinwales Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:25 pm

I think its the Lydiate/Warburton combo tbh - Warburton was pretty anonymous in the first test - sounds like he was a lot better with Lydiate around.

Now he is out getting the balance right wont be easy- but we did win the first game without Lydiate and with less of Warburton

by jelly Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:29 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:To me Warburton did a great job making key tackles and turnovers last week. When he went off it seemed no coincidence that Gill started to punish the Lions. SOB can be that threat in terms of turnovers. Lydiate can be a threat on defence. Croft worked well with Warburton at turnovers but with Tipuric wouldn't nearly be as effective. It's all about balance for me and I haven't seen enough of Heaslip in terms of ball carrying as I'd like to see. Faletau, Tipuric and SOB for me would be the backrow I'd go for but that leaves the problem of who covers the backrow for injury. If SOB gets injured, you lose a lot of flexibility. Croft or Lydiate on the bench offer different things but they're thin in terms of versatility. I think SOB's versatility makes him more attractive to Gatland on the bench sadly. Tipuric could be cover for 6 or 7 which might see him as an outsider to be on the bench. Much will depend on what changes Gatland envisages or if players are purely there for cover.

If you start 8 Faletau 7 Tipuric and 6 O'Brien then you can have pretty much anyone on the bench but I would go with Croft as he might be what the Lions need in terms of shoring up the lineout and offering a threat in open play. Of course, if we are looking to hang on then Lydiate is a better option.

If Faletau gets injured, Croft to 6, O'Brien to 8
If O'Brien gets injured, Croft to 6
If Tipuric gets injured, Croft to 6, O'Brien to 7

Don't think O'Brien's versatility should stop him starting as you can still utilise that versatility if he starts.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:34 pm

Ably reasoned out there jelly. But Faletau, Croft and Tipuric (the second example) doesn't convince as much as the other scenarios 1 and 3. Somewhere you have to chance your arm as you can't cover every possibility.

I think Gatland will go for Heaslip, SOB and Lydiate and Croft on the bench. I agree the lineout throws to the back were flaky and he offers strength in that area.

by wolfball Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:39 pm

Maybe we should pick that fellah at 6, or that fellah at 7. Blah blah. The team selection, the emphasis of everyone is at this point a very minor consideration. I didn't think much of Warburton until the second half of the second test, and BOD has not been worthy of his place. POC's injury is the one that has hurt us the most. But personnel is not the issue, I believe any set of 23 players currently on the Lions tour could win 1/2 tests against this Aussie side.

No, I have been thinking about "Gatland-ball" and i don't think we are even seeing that. This is Kidney-ball; where is the strike running of North? The inside pass from BOD to Bowe or the looping JD2/Sexton? No where, because Gatland took the already limited (though often effective) neo-Welsh-way and added a sprinkling of Rowntree and Farrel, and we are left with the dross of the last two weeks. There is the issue, that coaching combination is the opposite of encouraging courageous rugby, and we can pick every big ball carrier we have and they will still be asked to chase garryowens.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:41 pm

I like it wolfball. Watching that second test was indeed a bit like passing a kidney stone.

by SecretFly Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:44 pm

It was pure Kidney. Maybe Kidney should have been Lions coach afterall. He does kidney better than Gatland can.

by wolfball Mon 01 Jul 2013, 2:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:It was pure Kidney. Maybe Kidney should have been Lions coach afterall. He does kidney better than Gatland can.

Now you say it, I would be the first to thank Kidney for the Grand Slam and the first to say he should have left two years ago, but I think he could be a great Lions coach. His greatest ability is getting teams psyched up for 1-2 games of knock out rugby. Throw in a flamboyant backs coach and the Lions could have had a good thing. I see even ROG is being mentioned on another thread. That's crazy like a fox thinking.
Very Happy

by Guest Mon 01 Jul 2013, 4:38 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Oh GE, please give it a rest chief as that's one of your daftest attempts at a wind up ever. Warburton was excellent on Saturday and if not fit for next week will be missed.

Maybe Ghost has had his day finally? Been a long time coming

by nobbled Mon 01 Jul 2013, 4:48 pm

If Corbs is fit you can start Youngs at hooker. If not then Hibberd has to be on. Youngs and Mako are both good in the loose, but that's a luxury you can't afford if it costs you a decent scrum. So has to be one or the other for me.

Warburton was outstanding in my opinion this Saturday. One of very few stand out performances on the Lions side I thought.

by majesticimperialman Mon 01 Jul 2013, 5:00 pm

It truly is bad news for Warburton, But could his misfortune bring Tipuric in to the team.

I guess the Captain will be BOD, but after last week's game should BOD be captain and should he be starting? Would the Lions be better off with AWJ as Captain?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 01 Jul 2013, 5:04 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:It truly is bad news for Warburton, But could his misfortune bring Tipuric in to the team.(1)

I guess the Captain will be BOD(2), but after last week's game should BOD be captain and should he be starting? (3) Would the Lions be better off with AWJ as Captain?(4)

(1) Possibly, or maybe to the bench
(2) Probably
(3) Possibly not
(4) Probably

by SecretFly Mon 01 Jul 2013, 5:06 pm

What didn't BOD do that others did with aplomb?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 01 Jul 2013, 5:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:What didn't BOD do that others did with aplomb?

they are probably going to bring back Jamie Roberts (or maybe Manu, but unlikely). For me over the tour BOD has looked steadily more and more tired. Over the whole tour I feel that JD2 has offered more in attack. I think that BOD is one of the all time greats - but now his body is incapable of delivering what his brain wants. However, BOD will be selected and JD2 will be sacrificed, so my opinion is purely that and rather worthless. It is still what I feel and based on no agenda but merely what I have observed.

by Guest Mon 01 Jul 2013, 6:24 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:Oh GE, please give it a rest chief as that's one of your daftest attempts at a wind up ever. Warburton was excellent on Saturday and if not fit for next week will be missed.

Maybe Ghost has had his day finally? Been a long time coming

Or not then Doh

I don't think Tipuric will make the 23 on Saturday. I wouldn't be surprised to see Lydiate to keep Genia quieter, SOB and Heaslip/Faletau, with Croft on the bench.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 01 Jul 2013, 7:01 pm

AW Jones for captain. Sexton and O'Driscoll can be very fiery characters in the heat of the moment. Great for inspiring their team mates but keep them away from the ref.

by fa0019 Mon 01 Jul 2013, 9:40 pm

I'd go with croft, o'brien and Heaslip. Lydiate is just too negative for me... We have to go out there and win the game, not just hope our defence can withhold them. Without a full guns blazing 7 he's not a good option and Warburton has been off the pace for the series.

Tipuric, I just think its too much to be brought in cold.

Roberts would be a bizarre leap of faith for gatland... He's had a leg injury right... Meaning his sharpness will have gone.... You don't come back from those injuries all guns blazing after 3 weeks off. If Manu is fit, play him.

by Guest Mon 01 Jul 2013, 11:00 pm

Warburton off pace? Jesus. He's done his job perfectly both tests.

by king_carlos Tue 02 Jul 2013, 12:36 am

As many have said it depends very much on the game plan. With the injuries sustained it seems fairly likely that Gatland could go with the below side:

1.Corbs - If fit he'll start IMO
2.Youngs
3.Jones
4.Wyn-Jones
5.Gray - He's done everything to deserve a start
6.Lydiate
7.SOB or Tipuric - could go either way
8.Heaslip

9.Phillips
10.Sexton
11.North
12.Roberts or Tuilagi - depends on how Roberts is doing with injury
13.O'Driscoll
14.Bowe
15.Halfpenny

Looking at that side they are well capable of playing a structured but attacking game looking to take the game away from Australia in attack. It may not be the side I'd go for but they certainly have the potential to play that way. If however they stick with kicking long, playing the percentages and looking to force errors in defence and set piece I fear Aus will simply absorb the pressure (as they've shown time and again they're very good at) and take their chances when it opens up leading to a win for the home side.

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Jones 4.Wyn-Jones 5.Gray 6.O'Brien 7.Tipuric 8.Heaslip
9.Youngs 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Roberts 13.O'Driscoll 14.Bowe 15.Halfpenny
16.Hibbard 17.Vunipola 18.Cole 19.Parling 20.Faletau 21.Murray 22.Farrell 23.Tuilagi

For what it's worth that's what I'd go for playing with a structured but aggressive game plan, looking to use the likes of Gray, O'Brien, Heaslip, Roberts and North up the middle before unleashing B Youngs, Tipuric, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Halfpeeny off quick ball in the wider channels. That was what I was hoping to see before the series started though and I'm still living in hope! thumbsup

by dragonbreath Tue 02 Jul 2013, 1:48 am

LondonTiger wrote:
wales606 wrote:Big big blow, time for Tipuric to have a huge game

Yes it is a blow. Cannot see tipuric making anything better than the bench though. SOB almost certain to be the starting 7.

There was a lack of ball carriers on Sat so as much as regard Dan I feel that we need SOB on the blind in a must win game. Defence on its own will not be enough. I also think that Falatau has an appetite for carrying the ball time after time that Heaslip has not demonstrated. Toby will also do a lot of the tackling in and around the fringes that we will miss if Dan is sacrificed. He has played well every time he has worn the shirt and been Seren y Gem at least once.

Therefore my back row would be SOB Tips and Toby. I think it has balance. A genuine 6/7 like SOB gives us go forward and extra at the breakdown, Tips is a genuine fetcher, good over the ball and an excellent link man and Toby as I have said will carry for you all day. One of Manu or Roberts will be fit and all of a sudden we have front foot ball.

But hey I am not a Rugby genius like Warren (has his head gone) Gatland:whistle:

by dragonbreath Tue 02 Jul 2013, 2:02 am

VictorU3 wrote:Sad news for Warbs but I hope Tips gets a go.

Also I'm haven't seen anything from Sexton that says to me he justifies his selection maybe a B.Youngs/Farrell combo will serve the Lions better?

Youngs was pulled off after 53 mins so can we put the Youngs is the answer Love sacks to bed please. Gatland needs his 9 to have a little more than a nice pass, if his way of playing is to work. Hard on Murray but Phillips will start if fit. Youngs is a lightweight at this level

by lostinwales Tue 02 Jul 2013, 12:47 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
VictorU3 wrote:Sad news for Warbs but I hope Tips gets a go.

Also I'm haven't seen anything from Sexton that says to me he justifies his selection maybe a B.Youngs/Farrell combo will serve the Lions better?

Youngs was pulled off after 53 mins so can we put the Youngs is the answer Love sacks to bed please. Gatland needs his 9 to have a little more than a nice pass, if his way of playing is to work. Hard on Murray but Phillips will start if fit. Youngs is a lightweight at this level

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