17th at Sawgrass

So Mrs Dye's brainwave the 'Island Green' par 3 at Sawgrass is almost upon us. Question is - what boat are you in?




PS Ignore the '[ hr ]' option please. I've tried to delete it but I wont go. Mods? Can you help me out please?

I love it. What's wrong with an island green on a short par 3? If a pro can't hit a fairly large green with an 8 iron then he should be punished

I think its great as come the final round, the leader has to hold his nerve big time.

Genuine excitement at the prospect of someone having to show their mettle.

Will come as little surprise to most that I really hate this hole. Do we need any reminders of the excitement recovery can provide in a week that saw the sad passing of seve.

what is better to watch; An expert chip from a seemingly unrecoverable position or a player playing 9 iron to the middle of a massive green?

It's more punishing aspect is the amount of slope on the green. It's a huge surface and there is no reason to miss it. Although the wind does swirl like a Bar Steward around that part of the course.

I have tried to edit the poll but for some reason its not working- will have to live with the middle option I am afraid.

d4s - on a calm day it usually a PW to the middle of the green for most the of the guys! I like it because it's pretty unique. I wouldnt want anymore of them though! One is plenty.

Mac - I thought you wouldn't be a fan. Whilst I agree with you the options are quite limited on this hole I like the question it asks of the pro's bottle... but I certainly wouldnt want to play it every week. Helluva a lot to do when you do get it on the green.

<onthefencesmiley>

I'm with Mac, not a fan really...

Wasn't the ultimate recovery shot Fred Couples holing out for a 3 having dunked his tee shot?

was that at Sawgrass?

puligny wrote:Wasn't the ultimate recovery shot Fred Couples holing out for a 3 having dunked his tee shot?

Yes after the position of his ball had been artificially interfered with due finding a water hazard. I am a strong believer that the only time a players hand should touch the ball is the time he picks it out the hole to the point he next tees it up. Golf is all about the random, hitting an area then playing from a prescribed drop zone has no random elements.

One of the first Island greens is thought to be the Cobb Creeks 110 yard twelfth built in 1917 by Hugh Wilson, he of merion fame. I am not sure but this could be it today.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=cobbs+creek+golf+course&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=cobbs+creek+golf+course&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=39.967194,-75.268879&spn=0.001075,0.002642&t=h&z=19

Even if this is not the one the original was in a river bend like this current hole, although on the original the water was definitely all around the green. If anyone has The Golden age of gold design be Geoff Shaklflord it is on page 74.

You can surround a hole with danger and risk without resorting to the island green, just look at the postage stamp.

I bet Steve Lowery doesnt like it -

Lowery on 17th

Hate it. Gimmick. Rubbish.

Mc - are you suggesting he should have played from underwater? Or arguing against water hazards of any type anywhere eg Links courses with an ocean in play?

puligny wrote:Mc - are you suggesting he should have played from underwater? Or arguing against water hazards of any type anywhere eg Links courses with an ocean in play?

No of course some water hazards are necessary but I do feel lowering the possibility that the players hand touches the ball during the hole is a good thing.

I get your point, but think some hazards of this type are ok. I accept it introduces a greater element of chance, though a bad bounce on hard links ground can be argued to do similar? Anyway we ain't going to change it - and it does produce some action. Thankfully the "fans" are not as tanked up as Phoenix!!

Nothing wrong with the hole its a good fun hole and sawgrass is all about target golf and thats all this hole epitomises after all yes you can aim for middle of the huge green but the slopes can make it unputtable in places whats the difference then between that and some of the holes on The old course where the greens are so big they could have diffrent post codes but that doesn't get slated because its ST Andrews

I think this hole is a gem, its the only one that has all players dredding it, in all 4 rounds, no other hole has that effect on the Pro Tour.

It's a good hole, simply because it's discussed here.

pedro wrote:It's a good hole, simply because it's discussed here.

Ha. Good point. But is it art?

Check out this little nifty feature on golf.com that provides stats etc of how amateurs played the 17th during a day of play.

link to golf.com feature

Check out the 3 tee shots surrounding the hole that made bogeys or higher!!

lairdy

Great link, I think those stat's highlight what a terrible hole it is, nearly 50% found the water.

McLaren wrote:lairdy

Great link, I think those stat's highlight what a terrible hole it is, nearly 50% found the water.

Surely that highlights just how bad the people who are playing it are rather than how bad the hole is.

If you can't hit a green that size over a distance of about 120 yards (from the daily tees) then you really should be losing your ball in the drink. And forced to shag Jo Brand as further punishment.

Lairdy

Nice link. How do you bogey it (or worse!) from those 3 positions???

I particularly like the number 1 bottom left - "Number of players who stiffed it to 3 feet - and missed the putt". How irritating would that have been?

Navy, I'm going to guess at least one of those guys bombed it at the hole and ended up down the large slope. Missing it from 3 feet is irritating at the best of times but being so close then missing out on the chance to tell everyone you birdied the 17th at sawgrass would kill me!!

Mac, I think the hole as a concept is terrible and certainly it is not something to be copied elsewhere. Dont like the hole for amateurs - there is always punishment for bad shots but it shouldn't be this severe. Saying that, it is a tremendous test of bottle for the pros.

LJ, you dont shag Jo Brand. She shags you!

Don't mind the concept of island greens in principle (or at least the concept of par 3s with plenty of water). What I don't like about the Sawgrass 17th is its artificiality. I prefer to see courses where the wholes have been designed by the landscape, rather than where the landscape has been redesigned for the holes, and this is the most extreme example of the latter.

Here's a link to some stats on the 17th from yesterday -

link

Also included is all the water balls from 2003 to present. Check out 1st round in 2007! Carnage! Wonder if we'll see an increase this year as the numbers from the last 2 years seem tame compared to 2005-2007.

Update on the vote is 20-7 in favour of those who like the hole.

When these pro's chunk one into the water, do you think they stand there thinking "oh dear, that was a brand new ball"?

:run1:

D4S

They think

Sugar..... there goes another $10,000.

Link info

De Jeong three pu33ed from 4ft 8inches from the hole having dunked 2 shots in the water