IRB's new scrum engagement rules to be trialled in the Rugby Championship

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 08 Jul 2013, 3:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

The IRB's new "Crouch, Bind, Set" rules were due to be introduced worldwide at the start of the NH club season. However SANZAR have opted to bring them in early, in the Rugby Championship, with a view to having players used to them prior to the AIs

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/189547.html

The trial is aimed at enhancing player welfare by reducing the impact of engagement by up to 25 per cent, as well as consolidating first-time completion rate of scrums and therefore enhancing the spectacle for fans. Referees will also be instructed to ensure that the scrum is static before the ball is put into the scrum and that the ball goes in straight.

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 09 Jul 2013, 4:29 pm

I bet when Sexton launched yet another of his interminable bombs upfield last Saturday, his fellow runners (frequently offside of course) couldn't believe their luck when their paths weren't blocked by zig-zagging defenders.

There's a secret academy in Connacht where retreating defenders can learn the skills. The O'Ledermaston College of Nearly Legal Warfare.

by Exiledinborders Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:09 pm

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/189547.html

The trial is aimed at enhancing player welfare by reducing the impact of engagement by up to 25 per cent, as well as consolidating first-time completion rate of scrums and therefore enhancing the spectacle for fans. Referees will also be instructed to ensure that the scrum is static before the ball is put into the scrum and that the ball goes in straight.

So the IRB are going to trial instructing refereees to apply the rules of the game. As far as I know pushing before the ball is in and crooked feeds have always been illegal. If they really do this it will have more impact than than changing the words which they have done before.

by HammerofThunor Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:30 pm

I think they'll stop the scrum half putting the ball in until they're happy. More proactive instead reactive as current.

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:40 pm

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Elite factions will squirrel into the ears of the moneymakers and bank-rollers to ensure that the proletariat will remain downtrodden.

About 0.1% of any societal unit will command any real influence.

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:44 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I think they'll stop the scrum half putting the ball in until they're happy. More proactive instead reactive as current.

Will it stop the hooker from being recategorised second loose head prop?

by HammerofThunor Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:45 pm

Teeth

by **profitius** Thu 08 Aug 2013, 7:02 pm

So what will the changes do to the game? What kind of player do they suit best? From reading a bit about it it looks like scrummaging will be closer to the way it was pre professionalism.

by nganboy Fri 09 Aug 2013, 2:04 am

Here's an interesting article from a scrum coach.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/9004873/New-scrum-laws-will-wind-clock-back-says-Cron

by aucklandlaurie Fri 09 Aug 2013, 3:30 am

If we have to have the ball put in straight then surely we must also go back to the hookers being penalised for lifting.

by disneychilly Fri 09 Aug 2013, 10:40 am

The hookers have to learn how to hook again. That coupled with more focus on straight put ins will provide a decent contest for the ball as well as rewarding the dominant scrum. You might see more tightheads. Good for the game.

by HammerofThunor Fri 09 Aug 2013, 12:08 pm

One thing, it sounds like it's going to be a mess in the early days. Hopefully they stick with it.

by doctor_grey Sat 10 Aug 2013, 1:40 pm

Agree Hammer.
Hopefully the referees visit each Premiership and Celtic League club and walk through the sequence. Would help bring everyone on the same page and reduce the time needed to get it sorted.

It will be interesting to watch the Rugby Championship to see how they fare with it. I would also be interested to know how this is handled in practice and amongst the referees in the RC.

by **profitius** Sat 10 Aug 2013, 4:31 pm

nganboy wrote:Here's an interesting article from a scrum coach.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/9004873/New-scrum-laws-will-wind-clock-back-says-Cron

So, taking the hit advantage away and more scrummaging sounds to me like the props will be a bit smaller and better technically. Also if the Crons are correct the props will be more tired from having to do more pushing. Also the hooking position might be more technical so we could see smaller hookers too. I'm not so sure how hard it is to hook the ball back though. If all of that is correct then we're likely to see more gaps due to tiredness, slightly smaller packs and less stoppages.

The stoppages are the main thing thats killing the game. If they can tidy those up and make it easier for the referees then it will be a great step forward.

by asoreleftshoulder Sat 10 Aug 2013, 5:07 pm

profitius wrote:
nganboy wrote:Here's an interesting article from a scrum coach.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/9004873/New-scrum-laws-will-wind-clock-back-says-Cron
So, taking the hit advantage away and more scrummaging sounds to me like the props will be a bit smaller and better technically. Also if the Crons are correct the props will be more tired from having to do more pushing. Also the hooking position might be more technical so we could see smaller hookers too. I'm not so sure how hard it is to hook the ball back though. If all of that is correct then we're likely to see more gaps due to tiredness, slightly smaller packs and less stoppages.

The stoppages are the main thing thats killing the game. If they can tidy those up and make it easier for the referees then it will be a great step forward.

The point of the hookers having to hook is that there is a fight for possession.If the ball is fed straight the opposition hooker has a fair chance of winning it against the head.It's similar to a lineout in that catching a ball is easy for a 2nd row but it becomes more complicated when the other team are trying to catch it too.

by **profitius** Sat 10 Aug 2013, 6:00 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
profitius wrote:
nganboy wrote:Here's an interesting article from a scrum coach.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/9004873/New-scrum-laws-will-wind-clock-back-says-Cron
So, taking the hit advantage away and more scrummaging sounds to me like the props will be a bit smaller and better technically. Also if the Crons are correct the props will be more tired from having to do more pushing. Also the hooking position might be more technical so we could see smaller hookers too. I'm not so sure how hard it is to hook the ball back though. If all of that is correct then we're likely to see more gaps due to tiredness, slightly smaller packs and less stoppages.

The stoppages are the main thing thats killing the game. If they can tidy those up and make it easier for the referees then it will be a great step forward.
The point of the hookers having to hook is that there is a fight for possession.If the ball is fed straight the opposition hooker has a fair chance of winning it against the head.It's similar to a lineout in that catching a ball is easy for a 2nd row but it becomes more complicated when the other team are trying to catch it too.

Does hooking the ball back require a skill or is it as straight forward as it sounds? The more skill required in rugby, the less size will matter.

by HammerofThunor Sat 10 Aug 2013, 11:09 pm

I suppose it's like throwing a ball straight for lineout. Easy in theory but a hell if a lot of guys fluff it up.

by yappysnap Sat 10 Aug 2013, 11:53 pm

Surely its a bit tougher as you have about 200stone of forwards compressing you at the same time...

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 11 Aug 2013, 8:22 am

I expect the the scrummaging machines will be doing more mileage this summer than ever before. I would have expected that previously much of the work would have been done in the gym and weights room preparing for the explosive hit. These new laws I hope will require much more from coordinated team technique and sustained power bursts.

And yappy, 200 stones would be two lightweight packs averaging 12.5 stones. More reasonably, 256st (16st ave) of prime beef on the hoof might be more realistic.

Makes your neck sore just to contemplate it doesn't it?

by yappysnap Sun 11 Aug 2013, 7:24 pm

Yea there's a reason all sensible and sane players can be found with numbers 6 onwards on their shirts!!

by majesticimperialman Sun 11 Aug 2013, 8:20 pm

I was watching the golden lions game yesterday. and it seems the refs, are paying more (ATTENTION) to the scrum half feeding the ball into the scrum. If they clamp down on the crooked feeding of the scrum. it will make for tighter game. surely wont it?

by Jenifer McLadyboy Sun 11 Aug 2013, 8:52 pm

Have a look at Ciaran Fitzgerald. the last "small" hooker I can remember.

He was very small by modern standards. would a massive modern hooker have the flexibility to hook the ball properly?

They got twisted into funy shapes doing it back in the day. Hookers who could hook with both feet were valuable too. The could win "strikes against the head" easier.

by nganboy Mon 12 Aug 2013, 2:03 am

I remember hearing a AB prop many years ago going on about how Sean Fitzpatrick had small hips for a big man and how this was a major advantage as it allowed him to.... (I forget)

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon 12 Aug 2013, 11:08 am

I look forward to a phrase I haven't heard for decades.

"Foot up!"

by aucklandlaurie Wed 14 Aug 2013, 12:45 am

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I look forward to a phrase I haven't heard for decades.

"Foot up!"

Im more concerned as to whether some of the referees doing this competition even know what it means.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Aug 2013, 8:04 am

What chance of "twisting and lowering" being heard then, Laurie?

ngan wrote:I remember hearing a AB prop many years ago going on about how Sean Fitzpatrick had small hips for a big man and how this was a major advantage as it allowed him to.... (I forget)

That could be the reason nganboy.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Aug 2013, 2:53 pm

Some interesting views from front rowers as how they'll have to learn to ~~cheat~~ adapt. http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/193391.html

p.s. there is an audio overlay with it (not all about the scrum, but e.g. if you'd like to hear how Jonny's French is coming along...).

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Aug 2013, 3:36 pm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Some interesting views from front rowers as how they'll have to learn to ~~cheat~~ adapt. http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/193391.html

p.s. there is an audio overlay with it (not all about the scrum, but e.g. if you'd like to hear how Jonny's French is coming along...).

Cheers Porty

by ChequeredJersey Wed 14 Aug 2013, 7:50 pm

Scott Allen's view from the Roar:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/13/why-the-new-scrum-laws-help-ben-alexander-but-hurt-benn-robinson/

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Aug 2013, 7:56 pm

Recommend anyone having issues understanding the new laws takes a read of the link CJ found. He did a great job finding that. Very clear and well explained.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Aug 2013, 8:06 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Scott Allen's view from the Roar:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/13/why-the-new-scrum-laws-help-ben-alexander-but-hurt-benn-robinson/

That was brilliant CJ.

So many people -if the laws are enforced- are going to learn a lot about the beauty of the scrum.

And it was so well explained. Top class Mr Allen clap

.

by **Biltong** Wed 14 Aug 2013, 8:36 pm

The Currie Cup used the new laws this past weekend, and it didn't go too badly at all.

I don't think adjusting to it will take all that long.

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Aug 2013, 8:53 pm

Hope so..

Seems like there is unanimous admiration for the decision

by **Biltong** Wed 14 Aug 2013, 9:01 pm

I am still peeved off about the hit being taken away though.

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Aug 2013, 10:03 pm

Biltong wrote:I am still peeved off about the hit being taken away though.

Why?

It seems to have been such a major reason for all the collapsed scrums.

by **profitius** Thu 15 Aug 2013, 12:40 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Scott Allen's view from the Roar:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/13/why-the-new-scrum-laws-help-ben-alexander-but-hurt-benn-robinson/

Cheers for the link. I'm a bit confused when Allen says the following..

This momentum will have to be generated through a very co-ordinated shove from seven members of the pack working as one. Even if a smaller prop has better technique and can resist being driven backwards, it’s unlikely he’ll be able to drive a bigger, heavier prop backwards without the momentum of the hit to help him as used to exist under the old laws so bigger, heavier props will have an advantage.

This is another benefit for Alexander and a disadvantage for Robinson.

It may be Robinson has been omitted from the Wallabies squad not just to go away and improve his work rate around the field but also to work on a scrum technique to help him adapt to the new laws.

In the bolded part there he says the new rules will suit bigger, heavier props. From everything I have read from scrummaging experts I have gotten the impression that the hit favours bigger technical props while the new laws will favour props with the best technique.

That also seems to be his basis for saying the new rules are a diisadvantage for Robinson while an advantage for Alexander. I always thought Robinson was the best Aussie scrummager? He could be right about Alexander but that remains to be seen.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 15 Aug 2013, 12:55 am

Basically it's harder to cheat by undercutting the TH and make it look like he's to blame, I think.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 15 Aug 2013, 7:51 am

Going to be interesting. A different technique and a different physicality required for all three front rowers could see a realignment in the status quo of the acknowledged top performers.

Will big, square bullies ("so bigger, heavier props will have an advantage") really have an advantage?

I'm not too sure about that as the conditioning for a longer, more sustained shove might create a far more draining scenario for the lumps. I suspect that there will actually be a trend away from 20-stoners down to 17-18 stone players (maybe less). Especially as mobility outside the scrum will continue be at a premium.

Can't wait to see how it pans out.

by **Biltong** Thu 15 Aug 2013, 8:07 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Biltong wrote:I am still peeved off about the hit being taken away though.
Why?

It seems to have been such a major reason for all the collapsed scrums.

Here is why, I wrote this a few months ago.

biltong - the roar wrote:It is midwinter of 1992 and Edenvale is taking on Germiston Simmers, a tough opponent. A few minutes into the first half and its time for the first scrum. I am looking forward to this, this is where I shine.

Scrum time, made for overweight blokes with short necks and strong backs.

I set up for the first scrum.

First I have to make sure Kobus, my lock (he isn’t the brightest cookie in the cookie jar) hits me under my hip and not my lower back. It seems you need to remind him with a tap to the head every time you get ready that he isn’t tackling or hugging you but getting ready to push.

I ensure I get my bind onto my hooker by pulling his hips tight and get my arm around as far as possible on his shorts to ensure I remain straight.

Then I go down into my prone position – heads up as to stare into my opponents eyes, looking for the first signs of intelligence.

You can tell someone’s intelligence in two ways in my opinion. Tell them a joke and see if they get it, or in this case, see whether the expression is dulled or whether the eyes are awake and alert.

“Not much going on there” I say to myself and wait for my halfback to bring the ball closer.

In my prone position I have my left arm ready for the jab.

It is a technique I have perfected over time. the aim is to hit the inside of the armpit a few inches down, enough to give me the leverage over my opponent. In the same motion I will hit the armpit, swing my elbow out and lock my shoulder perpendicular to the ground.

Then I will transfer my momentum straight forward and up, not that far up to pop him. But to put into practise the lesson my physics teacher taught me many years ago: no matter whether he is stronger than me, I am underneath him and therefore have the advantage.

The shoulder in the locked position keeps me straight and unless the guy is a monster he isn’t going to be able to twist me.

Our hooker gives the tap on my shoulder (the sign for the hit and the feed, in unison we go forward. The halfback has seen the tap on my shoulder and feeds the ball.

It all goes swimmingly.

I hit the spot. In the same motion I level my elbow out and lock my shoulder. GOT HIM.

Now for the next test, see if I can push him. Yep, it works, I have the upper hand.

It isn’t too long and we have another scrum, their feed.

As I get prone to strike and look into his eyes I am disappointed, still nothing there. Oh well, same old same old. It is going to be an easy day in the scrums.

You see, the exciting and sometimes scary thing at scrum time is the ability of the opponent to react and recognise what you did the previous scrum to have control over him.

There is a glimmer of intelligence and he will realise how you beat him. He will now know that the speed of the bind is where I aim to beat him, and if he is intelligent enough and quick enough he can beat me.

Sadly this guy isn’t going to do any of that.

For me, my power lay in how I could use my whole body from my heels through my hips, to my shoulders, all in one straight line and effectively lock up being inflexible and almost impossible to bend or buckle. By having my shoulder locked it was almost near impossible to be turned inward or bent.

The challenge at scrum time is an art. I suspect every prop has his own techniques.

Admittedly I wasn’t a very big prop, only 92 kg’s fighting weight, even in those days smallish for a prop.

But irrespective of the rest of the match, every scrum for me is a challenge, one I have to win.

Although there are eight forwards in the pack, it is a one on one, as fair as you could possibly have in any sporting code.

Him and I. Our technique and our strength will decide each battle.

Sure I like doing the other stuff to, like run straight.

I can’t sidestep a mosquito or run faster than most but I love getting the ball, dropping the shoulder and bashing the hell out of some unsuspecting back.

But it is at the scrum where I shine, it is my playground, employing the art of beating your opponent again and again.

It has little to do with whether I got a penalty awarded to our team, it has little to do with any of the other 14 mates in my team, just me, him and the battle.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 15 Aug 2013, 8:27 am

There'll always a place for the controlled pseudo-psychopath in the modern game, Biltong.

The difference difference is that (imo) in the modern game under the new laws, he will be a fitter, stronger and lither variant of pseudo-psychopath.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 15 Aug 2013, 8:50 am

That battle will still be there with a reduced hit, Biltong

by **Biltong** Thu 15 Aug 2013, 9:05 am

controlled pseudo-psychopath

Excellent. laughing

by **Biltong** Thu 15 Aug 2013, 9:07 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:That battle will still be there with a reduced hit, Biltong

Yes, it will be, but it will change, where as I used my momentum and jab at the same time, now you won't be able to do that.

In a controlled bind, (although I have to test it in a practical manner) your jab up and out will be a tad weird due to the fact that your arm will be extended, so you won't be able to bend your elbow.

by **Biltong** Thu 15 Aug 2013, 9:08 am

Biltong wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:That battle will still be there with a reduced hit, Biltong
Yes, it will be, but it will change, where as I used my momentum and jab at the same time, now you won't be able to do that.

In a controlled bind, (although I have to test it in a practical manner) your jab up and out will be a tad weird due to the fact that your arm will be extended, so you won't be able to bend your elbow.

Unless you now focus on the jab to the armpit first, and then when the soft hit comes, you focus on bending and extending your elbow perpendicular to the ground and then lock your shoulder.

Not sure how it will work in practice though.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 15 Aug 2013, 9:10 am

It could be that there's a rise in stock prices of lh scrummagers over th ones. Loose heads will benefit (illegally) by twisting the th down and therefore obscuring the view and capacity of his hooker to strike for the ball.

Well that's what used to happen. In my playing days, the lh I was blessed with possessed an hydraulic spine who would respond to simple commands* of up/down a bit Mick and my th was an immovable rock.**
*The commands were of necessity very simple.
**This memory might be dimmed by the passage of time.

by **Biltong** Thu 15 Aug 2013, 9:16 am

Portnoy wrote:The commands were of necessity very simple.

Understandable, in some cases one syllable words would be required, but then again a person of high comprehension would only need half a word anyway.

The important thing here is to realise in which category your prop fell. Wink

by maestegmafia Thu 15 Aug 2013, 9:27 am

Bill nice piece but I think the hit has little to do with a good scrum. The new laws will turn it back into a wrestling match of technique.

Reading the elements you enjoyed most, the technique, the skill will surely only be more apparent now...?

by **Biltong** Thu 15 Aug 2013, 9:32 am

maestegmafia wrote:Bill nice piece but I think the hit has little to do with a good scrum. The new laws will turn it back into a wrestling match of technique.

Reading the elements you enjoyed most, the technique, the skill will surely only be more apparent now...?

I do agree the bind is more important than the hit, but you basically have to change your whole setup and preparation as a loosehead now.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 15 Aug 2013, 9:46 am

Everyone in the front row will have to, Bil.
All new/recycled laws and different techniques.

But hookers and, as you say, lhs will be on the biggest learning curves.

The old-fashioned eight-man shove may be a problem and perhaps the IRB will have to intervene again to enforce both hookers to strike at the put-in.

by maestegmafia Thu 15 Aug 2013, 9:54 am

Biltong wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Bill nice piece but I think the hit has little to do with a good scrum. The new laws will turn it back into a wrestling match of technique.

Reading the elements you enjoyed most, the technique, the skill will surely only be more apparent now...?
I do agree the bind is more important than the hit, but you basically have to change your whole setup and preparation as a loosehead now.

Remember "the hit" is very much a modern invention! The scrum is returning to what it was.

by Poorfour Thu 15 Aug 2013, 10:18 am

What will be interesting will be how the scrum dynamic changes through the game. I suspect that some of the current crop of powerful 20st props will fare well in the early exchanges but get worn down quite quickly if they haven't trained for endurance.

I can see props in the Tom Smith mould (not huge, but immense upper body strength and good endurance) as the big winners in this. Of course, the ideal is a big guy who is used to extended exertion. Will we see heavyweight judo black belts converted into props?

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