The Ashes, Second Test Lord's

First topic message reminder :

Harris and Khwaja in.
Aus's bowling depth is so good that they can drop who was rated to be their top fast bowler without blinking an eyelid.

I don't think England would even need 400 runs.

Hibbz wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:There is never ever a time i wouldnt enforce a follow on gsc.

Then again last match you claimed you'd always walk Mysti but earlier on this thread you were suggesting that "you'd have to be a mug" not to use up all of your reviews after Broad reviewed a clear edge so just maybe we should take your hyperbole with a pinch of salt eh mate?

I agree on this occasion not to enforce because of the match situation and because in this heat there's an even greater need to protect the bowlers from exhaustion and potential injury.

Hibbz if you took what i said with a pinch of salt you wouldnt remember stuff i said 2 years ago and bring it up.. xx

btw if you want a cheeky round let me know..

I dont think they need 200, Biltong!

LondonTiger wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

GSC wrote:Plus whats more likely.

Australia chase 400+ batting last or England fail to make 150 batting last?

key problem above is that either way aus need to score 400.. factor that in first..

Why the hell would you want to risk the bowlers getting damaged.  As it is the injury prone Aussie bowlers have had minimal rest. At least one of them will pull up lame.

bowl out a team for a 120 and you think they need resting. Jesus lol

They also bowled a fair bit at TB with 3 days in between Myst

Probably for the best to rest them, unlikely that they'd go so poorly again and if Anderson gets injured the rest of the series is far far harder

kingraf wrote:I dont think they need 200, Biltong!

the thing about 200 is one good partnership and Oz can make it, 350 would be enough to put stress into every OZ batsman, also did you see that ball from Swann that turned sideways out of the rough?

Youve got to look at this and wonder: was the Australia innings the nadir? Surely they can only go up from here. Once the players start accepting that, the freedom might allow the Aussies to play better... Maybe the top six go from 40/4 to 90/4

mystiroakey wrote:

Hibbz wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:There is never ever a time i wouldnt enforce a follow on gsc.

Then again last match you claimed you'd always walk Mysti but earlier on this thread you were suggesting that "you'd have to be a mug" not to use up all of your reviews after Broad reviewed a clear edge so just maybe we should take your hyperbole with a pinch of salt eh mate?

I agree on this occasion not to enforce because of the match situation and because in this heat there's an even greater need to protect the bowlers from exhaustion and potential injury.

Hibbz if you took what i said with a pinch of salt you wouldnt remember stuff i said 2 years ago and bring it up.. xx

btw if you want a cheeky round let me know..

Mysti, it's hard enough to arrange a game with people I've known for years let alone a slightly unusual fellow from the internet.

Besides which aren't you too busy playing with your close pals Westwood and Montgomerie? xx

--their bowlers have done a terrific job....

their lower order has stood tall with the bat in hand and fought with gumption.....

they undoubtedly had the worse of the luck with DRS/ umpiring and tosses....

their opening partnerships have outdone Englands......

and for over 6 days.....Aus somehow ran almost neck to neck..

--then on the 7th day......wheels came off and the Aussie wagon crashed......
the middle order just  totally collapsed.
there were no lower order miracles.

and then suddenly the gulf between the 2 sides is so wide and representative of their real diffrence  

--Multiple miracles are required for Australia to come out even competitive from here. ....in this test.

PS* that LBW of Rogers was a pathetic piece of sub-standard umpiring
that he didn't review it doesn't akwe away the shoddiness of the umpiring

KP_fan wrote:

PS* that LBW of Rogers was a pathetic piece of sub-standard umpiring
that he didn't review it doesn't akwe away the shoddiness of the umpiring

There have been some shoody decisions against both teams. England have used the review system a whole lot better though.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

PS* that LBW of Rogers was a pathetic piece of sub-standard umpiring
that he didn't review it doesn't akwe away the shoddiness of the umpiring

There have been some shoody decisions against both teams. England have used the review system a whole lot better though.

Australia have no clue how to use DRS it would seem, and they're paying a heavy price. People talk about luck with DRS. No such thing, Cook is just using it better.

^ DRS should simply give fair decisions to the dumb and clever alike all the time.

If instead of the above it becomes a startegic tool for the clever...then the "dumb" ones are going to push back.....and the few clever ones will stand isolated

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

PS* that LBW of Rogers was a pathetic piece of sub-standard umpiring
that he didn't review it doesn't akwe away the shoddiness of the umpiring

There have been some shoody decisions against both teams. England have used the review system a whole lot better though.

two wrongs don't make a right
many wrongs do not make a right

that was the shoddiest decision of the series so far. period.

KP_fan wrote:^ DRS should simply give fair decisions to the dumb and clever alike all the time.

If instead of the above it becomes a startegic tool for the clever...then the "dumb" ones are going to push back.....and the few clever ones will stand isolated

It does, for instance:
In the first test, Australia's review against Bairstow was "dumb", and it cost them Broad's wicket later on.
England's review against Hughes, by contrast, was "clever", and it netted them a wicket.

KP_fan wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

PS* that LBW of Rogers was a pathetic piece of sub-standard umpiring
that he didn't review it doesn't akwe away the shoddiness of the umpiring

There have been some shoody decisions against both teams. England have used the review system a whole lot better though.

two wrongs don't make a right
many wrongs do not make a right

that was the shoddiest decision of the series so far. period.

Use your reviews then, that's what they are there for.

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

PS* that LBW of Rogers was a pathetic piece of sub-standard umpiring
that he didn't review it doesn't akwe away the shoddiness of the umpiring

There have been some shoody decisions against both teams. England have used the review system a whole lot better though.

two wrongs don't make a right
many wrongs do not make a right

that was the shoddiest decision of the series so far. period.

Use your reviews then, that's what they are there for.

DRS should simply give fair decisions to the dumb and clever alike all the time.

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

PS* that LBW of Rogers was a pathetic piece of sub-standard umpiring
that he didn't review it doesn't akwe away the shoddiness of the umpiring

There have been some shoody decisions against both teams. England have used the review system a whole lot better though.

two wrongs don't make a right
many wrongs do not make a right

that was the shoddiest decision of the series so far. period.

Use your reviews then, that's what they are there for.

DRS should simply give fair decisions to the dumb and clever alike all the time.

How would you ensure that it does? Review every appeal?

I think whats happened here is that England has got out of their comfort zone owing to the first test. That near miss jolted them out of their complacency and they are beginning to play to their ability - which is currently far superior to that of the aussies. Drs, bad decisions etc etc - nothing can hide the obvious - England are a strong team with excellent players who are united and confident. The australians are a strong team with some great but rest ok players and seem to be either divided or lacking in mental fortitude whch causes them to be alternately sublime or ridiculous. I think the worst thing is (unusual for the aussies) is that they seem to believe that they are the inferior team and this is holding them back somewhat. I hope they at least make a game of it and snap out of this funk - test cricket has been marvellous over the last few years - and greatly competitive - it would be a shame for the premier exponent to peter out into a one sided win for the home nation - even more so after that excellent start in the first.

Hibbz wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Hibbz wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:There is never ever a time i wouldnt enforce a follow on gsc.

Then again last match you claimed you'd always walk Mysti but earlier on this thread you were suggesting that "you'd have to be a mug" not to use up all of your reviews after Broad reviewed a clear edge so just maybe we should take your hyperbole with a pinch of salt eh mate?

I agree on this occasion not to enforce because of the match situation and because in this heat there's an even greater need to protect the bowlers from exhaustion and potential injury.

Hibbz if you took what i said with a pinch of salt you wouldnt remember stuff i said 2 years ago and bring it up.. xx

btw if you want a cheeky round let me know..

Mysti, it's hard enough to arrange a game with people I've known for years let alone a slightly unusual fellow from the internet.

Besides which aren't you too busy playing with your close pals Westwood and Montgomerie? xx

 Close pals . i havent even played with my real close pals for 2 months! But hey they work to much.I am a lucky fella. I could potentially play whenever I want!

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

PS* that LBW of Rogers was a pathetic piece of sub-standard umpiring
that he didn't review it doesn't akwe away the shoddiness of the umpiring

There have been some shoody decisions against both teams. England have used the review system a whole lot better though.

two wrongs don't make a right
many wrongs do not make a right

that was the shoddiest decision of the series so far. period.

Use your reviews then, that's what they are there for.

DRS should simply give fair decisions to the dumb and clever alike all the time.

Why? Captains and players should be penalised for stupidity

never heard so much rubbish in my life tbh. Pro sport is 80% intelligence of the game (mental) anyway- take that away and we are left with sprinting and weightlifting..

Yeah, and so if people fritter away their reviews stupidly, they should suffer the consequences

I would be so suprised if clarke ever had sour grapes over the review system. Its just england haters!

He knows he needs to up his game everywhere including how he uses DRS!

Unless DRS gives us perfection - which is was never intended to do so criticising for not doing so is bizarre - KP_fan will continue to pick at its deficiencies while ignoring the fact it has improved the game. Quite frankly it's a waste of time debating the topic with him.

As soon as the first ball bowled yesterday, I thought Aussies will fight back hard on the so called homely ground for them. But unfortunately they collapsed. I was going through the highlights of different matches of Aussies on my laptop before 2005. The present Aussies team does not stand anywhere in front of that team. Though bowlers are doing their part but batsmen are pathetic. I still remember how they used to take away the game from others a decade ago. Ya we should give credit to English bowlers for making Aussies a mere prey in front of them. Though Lehman took the charge of Coach but I fear this may not end his coaching credibility.
If we look at England, they always hang around two or three batsmen. Here Trott and Bell are leading. The run machine Cook is yet to score some good score. Same is with KP. Root is the future star. This is the statement many Englishmen because they are playing against weak Aussies. Had they were playing against SA they would have immediately replaced him after first game failure.

Aussies have virtually lost the game, only some formalities have left. Now I think England will win by a margin 4-0.

Went to bed and missed the late England wickets ...three for Siddle for virtually nothing ...what was going on ? Cook and Root hadn't looked exactly comfortable but I didn't expect that to happen.
In fact 16 wickets in a day on what everyone reckoned was a 400 pitch (I certainly did !) defies belief. We know the Australian top order is , to be blunt , not up to Test class , but even so...

So how many do England need to be "safe" ? Cynics will say they could declare now , but if the pitch is as flat as it looks , and the bounce goes out of it , a chase of over 300 would in theory be not out of the question. Certainly Cook wouldn't be declaring any time on day three if he had the choice - which he may not after those early wickets !
Frankly I can't see Australia chasing even 300 here , assuming the turn for Swann continues to increase ; but I am still puzzled by the England top order's failure to impose themselves : it is not just the three wickets , but the fact that only 31 runs came in more than twenty overs...is there something happening out there that no watchers can discern from the boundary ? Or is it just poor batting , from both sides ?

Match could nearly finish on Saturday if this trend continues. Though common sense says England will settle and bat for most of the day : not sure that is a reliable guide for predicting events in this series  

Did anyone really think Lehman was going to make an immediate difference to the Aussie team?

How much time has he really had to change anything?

The only thing he could have done is bring a few ideas try an empose a different mindset, that is it.

Agree with you bil. He can only encourage players with little technical support. He can't play for the team.
Coach just play the role of mentor or guide.
Regarding Lehman he has superb coaching skills. I doubt if this loss proved to be a career threat for him..

Missed the action, or should I say inaction of yesterday after the first session. I had my more than fair share of moments when the England in the late 90s and early 2000s evoked sympathy. In fact, along with the brilliance of Fredye Flintoff and Michael Vaughan, and the tenacity of Nasser Hussain, this was one of the factors that made England my 2nd favorite side. But nothing during that period was as horrendous as this. Even Bangladesh or Zimbabwe would have put up a better fight than the Australians managed in the 4 tests in India or here at the HQ. Even TB was down to an all too rare last wicket partnership and a mini version of the same in the 2nd innings. The Australian top order has been an embarrassment for long.
It doesn't mean that the credit has to be taken away from England. But England haven't been challenged all that much in this test match. Their top order has been inconsistent, many in the batting lineup couldn't convert the starts, they dropped a couple of easy chances on the field, and the bowling was not more than good. But even that proved to be far too much for the Australians. Even if Alastair Cook had declared at 0-0 in the England 2nd innings, England would have been in with a 60-40 chance to win the game barring some strong hands from the Astralian lower order, there would have been not much of a challenge.
The West Indies fell away after a prolonged era of excellence. During the era of the mighty Australians, many us would have wished to bring the Australians to that level, but even for someone like me who don't particularly like the Australian team, this has been too much.
Perhaps England should rest Swann and Anderson for the next couple of games!.

england have been challenged. There are sparks of brilliance from Aus. But I will go back to what I said at the start. We cant expect an Aus win- they have been in turmoil and england are a solid team that has set plans.. The fact that we have seen Aus with some shades(sparks) or brilliance is all anyone should have expected.

As per usual people downgrade england and upgrade aus.. The fact is one is a very good side, one is in a tranisitional period. Only one winner 4/1 was bad oddsl.

Why? Captains and players should be penalised for stupidity

DRS was touted to bring uniform fairness...and to penalize for being less clever

Even after Warne, McGrath, Gilchrist, Martin and Langer left together, Australia remained a strong side. There was Hussey, Ponting, a maturing Clarke, Simon Katich who reinvented himself, Brett Lee and Shane Watson to keep Australia as a pretty good side.
But after Kattich was unceremoniously dumped, Ponting declined and then retired and Hussey too retiring, the replacements have been nowhere near good enough. The bowling still is good but the batting has been collectively substandard. If people expected the series to be competitive, it was never down to Australia's batting. Their bowling is still good, and England is prone to a collapse or too. The English batting duely obliged at TB, and even here they didn't perform to their best range. But Even an average performance was good enough for England. Pathetic from the Australian batsmen. Really pathetic.

KP fan- your arguments are getting strawman..

How would you ensure that it does? Review every appeal?

not my problem...those running the game gotta find and answer or be prepared to can this technology.

and I do see in CI headlines "ICC is doing trials with live ongoing reviews"

mystiroakey wrote:KP fan- your arguments are getting strawman..

sure you have an opinion....and I have one too...DRS is a can of worms

I think DRS can be improved. But having DRS this way is 10 times better than not having it. Its no one elses fault Bar Clarkes that he has used it wrong..

he will admit that.. There are also bad reviewers in tennis. Do you feel the same about that sport?

KP_fan wrote:

How would you ensure that it does? Review every appeal?

not my problem...those running the game gotta find and answer or be prepared to can this technology.

and I do see in CI headlines "ICC is doing trials with live ongoing reviews"

Well it is actually your problem in fairness..

The ICC have always realised that technology is an on going process, they have always had live ongoing trials!!. If we didn't implement any Tech until it was 100% full proof we would have allways been stuck in the dark ages.

1.We will never get full proof(100%) tech- therefore we would never improve fairness and decision making

2. We have to allow these tech companies to utilise there innovations and pay them money or they will never improve!!

Giving teams reviews works perfectly well in other sports, stop using Aussies terrible decisions to suit your agenda

msp83 wrote:Even after Warne, McGrath, Gilchrist, Martin and Langer left together, Australia remained a strong side. There was Hussey, Ponting, a maturing Clarke, Simon Katich who reinvented himself, Brett Lee and Shane Watson to keep Australia as a pretty good side.
But after Kattich was unceremoniously dumped, Ponting declined and then retired and Hussey too retiring, the replacements have been nowhere near good enough. The bowling still is good but the batting has been collectively substandard. If people expected the series to be competitive, it was never down to Australia's batting. Their bowling is still good, and England is prone to a collapse or too. The English batting duely obliged at TB, and even here they didn't perform to their best range. But Even an average performance was good enough for England. Pathetic from the Australian batsmen. Really pathetic.

The quality of batting in Australian domestic cricket is pretty bad right now. Cannot remember the stats but in terms of runs scored, centuries and averages it was one of the worst ever.

Australia are strong in seam bowling, weak in batting and spin. Only englands frailties with the bat are keeping them in this series.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/australia-domestic-2012/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?class=4;host=2;id=2012%2F13;type=season

Last seasons batting records in Australian domestic cricket.

Leading run scorers Clarke, Ponting and Hussey.

Ed Cowan averaged 30!!!

Kawaja scored just 400 runs in their summer.

What puzzles me is the weakness of the ICC. The DRS in place has improved the game overturning poor decisions and correcting many wrong ones so the system works. That being the case why isn't the ICC laying down the law to those that won't use it (India)? The ICC are the ruling body and they should start giving India an ultimatum - use it or action will be taken. Expelling them from the ICC would be a tad too far but other options are there. I mean could you see FIFA allowing countries to dictate about whether third officials should be used? Of course not.

Anyway back to this test and like I said yesterday I felt 300+ would be dequate and wait until we see what Australia did and hey presto they collapsed like a house of cards even though the bowling was not brilliant.

India bring a few quid into the game and given there is only 10 test members - one country is 10% of the membership. if 20 big countries decided to give it the large in Football over a rule they could possibly make it stick!

KP_fan wrote:

Why? Captains and players should be penalised for stupidity

DRS was touted to bring uniform fairness...and to penalize for being less clever

No it wasn't, it was touted as a way of removing the howler, not to bring 100% accuracy.

Strange how the situation gets to people.  I thought bringing in Rogers was a good idea for Australia - solid player, mature, and able to concentrate for long periods.  And he showed signs of that in the first Test.  But his dismissal yesterday was incredible - what was he thinking? 

In all the excitement the media seem to have forgotten that England batted terribly too.

They need to put it behind them today, apply themselves and aim for a couple of hundred more. Aussie will have time and England must not allow them to click.

bit of a dud test this then... Neither team's top six can hold their heads up high (Bell excepted), Fantastic bowling from both sides. The Australian bowling line-up deserve better than bowling two hours after dismissing England!

At least when England sucked, the whole team sucked, its tough when a team is sabotaged by their batters

Corps- I suppose pressure can do funny things.

Aussie batters are not just being shown up against other batters but also their own bowlers!

so maybe they are becoming selfish when it comes to reviewing!

Heatwave continues?