Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

It had to come eventually.

Squad

HOOKER
Rory Best, Rob Herring, Niall Annett
PROP
Tom Court, Callum Black, Paddy McAllister, Declan Fitzpatrick, John Afoa, Bronson Ross, Adam Macklin, Ricky Lutton
LOCK
Johann Muller (c), Dan Tuohy, Neil McComb, Lewis Stevenson
BACKROW
Iain Henderson, Stephen Ferris, Mike McComish, Sean Doyle, Chris Henry, Robbie Diack, Roger Wilson, Nick Williams
SCRUM-HALF
Ruan Pienaar, Michael Heaney, Paul Marshall
OUTHALF
Paddy Jackson, James McKinney
CENTRES
Stuart Olding, Luke Marshall, Paddy Wallace, Darren Cave, Michael Allen
WING
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Craig Gilroy, Chris Cochrane
FULL BACK
Jared Payne, Peter Nelson, David McIlwaine

Confirmed Pre-Season Games
Ulster Rugby vs Leinster Rugby, 23rd August
Leicester Tigers vs Ulster Rugby, 31st August

Heineken Cup Pool 5
Ulster Rugby, Leicester Tigers, Montpellier, Treviso

Ulster Rugby vs Leicester Tigers, 11th October
Montpellier vs Ulster Rugby, 19th October
Ulster Rugby vs Treviso, 7th December
Treviso vs Ulster Rugby, 14th December
Ulster Rugby vs Montpellier, 10th-12th January
Leicester Tigers vs Ulster Rugby, 17th-19th January

RaboDirectPro12

First five games starting on the 6th September;

Newport Gwent Dragons vs Ulster Rugby    
Ulster Rugby vs Glasgow Warriors            
Connacht Rugby vs Ulster Rugby
Ulster Rugby vs Benetton Treviso
Ospreys vs Ulster Rugby

Full fixtures at http://www.ulsterrugby.com/rugby/results_1stxv.php

But currently Cave is better than BOD.

clivemcl wrote:The use of utility player bench options is a tricky one. Its entirely understandable, but its hard to swallow. Basically the second best in any position may not get the bench.

Just look at Sexton/Jackson/Madigan in the Autumn there.

Truth is, Schmidt might believe Cave to be the 2nd best 13 in the country. But Cave can't get a look at the squad because of the likes of McFadden, Earls, Fitz, Henshaw etc.. offering more as backups to BOD.

When BOD goes, Cave's chances will certainly not improve with Payne becoming qualified as both a 13 and 15 for Ireland.

Internationally speaking, if you want to be a single position player, its numero uno, or not at all.

Certainly true in Ireland and to our detriment.

Other countries seem far more willing to play a player in their best position if they are the best available regardless of previous experience.
We do it with younger players but not older ones.

gleesonisgod wrote:But currently Cave is better than BOD.

Probably true at club level but the simple fact remains we have no clue how good cave might be at international level

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:So what that doesn't make him as good as he could have been.

He has the skill set to reach the  heights of Reid and Parisse - he hasn't achieve those heights

Read is an absolutely exceptional player. And a year younger than Jamie. Parisse is a bit of a spoofer. V good but not in Read's league by miles.

Reads only grown to that level in the last year maybe 18months, he went on a similar trajectory to Heaslip with a great start to his test career then dropped off for a few years and then really stepping up as captain when McCaw was on holiday.

Standulstermen wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:But currently Cave is better than BOD.

Probably true at club level but the simple fact remains we have no clue how good cave might be at international level

You're being a bit over the top no? I mean most players who are very good club players are at least decent international players. Many excel with greater players around them.

It's true that Cave could be a flop but I think it's safe to assume that he would make a good international and would currently be a better choice than BOD.

Whilst it may seem that way it's the intangibles that BOD brings to any  team that are so impressive

Jackson is at it again! Bit of a silly ad, but you have to love his attitude! Some set on him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjMwzSEcIr8

http://wordinsport.com/index.php/schmidt-backs-ulsters-cave-after-phone-call/

Hopefully thats the end of that.

Good to see it's been sorted out quickly and without fuss,have to say JS just oozes class in his dealings with the media.We might not agree with all of his decisions but he lets us fans know the reasons for his decisions more than any coach I've ever seen before.It's a breath of fresh air.

Notch wrote:http://wordinsport.com/index.php/schmidt-backs-ulsters-cave-after-phone-call/

Hopefully thats the end of that.

What a focking man eh? Joe I mean.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Notch wrote:http://wordinsport.com/index.php/schmidt-backs-ulsters-cave-after-phone-call/

Hopefully thats the end of that.

What a focking man eh? Joe I mean.

What else was he going to say?

Afoa must be pretty annoyed to find out he decided not to play in a European competition next year!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25228509?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

clivemcl wrote:Afoa must be pretty annoyed to find out he decided not to play in a European competition next year!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25228509?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Chances of Gloucester finishing in the top 6 incredibly slim anyway.

clivemcl wrote:Afoa must be pretty annoyed to find out he decided not to play in a European competition next year!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25228509?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

If the family aren't coming to Gloucester I would argue it was a major factor in his signing

Artful_Dodger wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Afoa must be pretty annoyed to find out he decided not to play in a European competition next year!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25228509?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Chances of Gloucester finishing in the top 6 incredibly slim anyway.

Theres always the LV Cup though

 Soon to be rebranded the RCC - its a European competition you know

Taken from the supporters site - Academy list

Prop
Andrew Warwick[23]
Kyle McCall[22]   **
Chris Taylor[21]  *
Hooker
Jonny Murphy[22]  **
John Andrew[21]
Second Row
James Simpson[23]
Alan O'Connor[21]
John Donnan[21] **
Backrow
Conor Joyce[21] **
Frankie Taggart[20]
Lorcan Dow[19] *
Scrumhalf
Dave Shanahan[21] **
Outhalf/Centre
Stuart McCluskey[22]
Back Three
Rory Scholes[21] **

** Players I have high hopes for
* Players I have heard good reports for but have not seen myself

Good to see the better propspects are, mostly, in the forwards, helps redress the balance a bit

geoff998rugby wrote:Taken from the supporters site - Academy list

Prop
Andrew Warwick[23]
Kyle McCall[22]   **
Chris Taylor[21]  *
Hooker
Jonny Murphy[22]  **
John Andrew[21]
Second Row
James Simpson[23]
Alan O'Connor[21]
John Donnan[21] **
Backrow
Conor Joyce[21] **
Frankie Taggart[20]
Lorcan Dow[19] *
Scrumhalf
Dave Shanahan[21] **
Outhalf/Centre
Stuart McCluskey[22]
Back Three
Rory Scholes[21] **

** Players I have high hopes for
* Players I have heard good reports for but have not seen myself

Good to see the better propspects are, mostly, in the forwards, helps redress the balance a bit

Doing a bit of research and interested to find that the two backrowers - Taggart and Dow are both from England and went to the same school in London. Irish parents it would seem. They were noticed though the Irish Exiles.

Lorcan?
Now there's a name I've never heard before. Good name for a backrower though to be 'Lorcan' around the fringes of the ruck

Pete330v2 wrote:Lorcan?
Now there's a name I've never heard before. Good name for a backrower though to be 'Lorcan' around the fringes of the ruck

Wow! Sheltered life or what? I have at least 4 good mates called Lorcan. Tripping over them down here.....

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Lorcan?
Now there's a name I've never heard before. Good name for a backrower though to be 'Lorcan' around the fringes of the ruck

Wow! Sheltered life or what? I have at least 4 good mates called Lorcan. Tripping over them down here.....

Oh, is it Irish? Well I guess I can kiss goodbye to thinking I knew how to pronounce it...  

clivemcl wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Lorcan?
Now there's a name I've never heard before. Good name for a backrower though to be 'Lorcan' around the fringes of the ruck

Wow! Sheltered life or what? I have at least 4 good mates called Lorcan. Tripping over them down here.....

Oh, is it Irish? Well I guess I can kiss goodbye to thinking I knew how to pronounce it...  

 

Most people pronounce the O as an O. The very odd person pronounces it like the O in LOve. (i.e Lurcan)

That would fit with "Lurkin" around the fringes.

geoff999rugby wrote:

kunu wrote:Don't mean to incite tempers here lads, but in my opinion he's a bit of a fool. Mentality is awful, I've been saying it here for about a year. Will always blame another man for mistakes, never himself. This article is proof, blaming Joe rather than his ability.

Case in point : Cave is at the receiving end of a rubbish pass, which he subsequently drops. I've seen him choose to give out to the passer, rather than chase the ensuing play. Petty, childish, and absolutely not what Schmidt is looking for.

Well you have incited my tempers because you are talking through your backside.
You do not have a clue what Darren Cave is like as a person as your post shows.
Best not to comment on something you know nothing about.

As for his comment on Wilson he is not saying he is as good as Heaslip but pointing out the gap in caps is not reflective of their skill level.
When Wilson was at Saints he was the 2nd best IQ 8 but was never included - shortsighted.

Faces not fitting is a fact.
It is an open secret Trimble is not liked by BOD and has suffered as a consequence.

To be honest it would not surprise me if Tuohy came out without something similar to Cave - he is equally hacked off.

Sorry was offline, exam study taking its toll!

Listen, you can learn a lot about a person from how they conduct themselves on the pitch. I'm entitled to my own perception of the man, especially now that he's issued a statement into the public domain. Human nature dictates you're naturally bound to form an opinion. I've released this into a relatively small forum, in which the man's temperament was indirectly introduced as a topic for discussion.

And you become outraged at someone merely voicing a perception of his character? Simmer down fella! Its a debating forum. We're allowed to question things and voice our opinions here.

That aside, Trimble offers no spark internationally and you know it. He's simply not on the same wavelength. That's why he isn't picked. BOD may not like him, but realistically it wouldn't matter. He isn't good enough.

I agree with you on Touhy though.

kunu wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

kunu wrote:Don't mean to incite tempers here lads, but in my opinion he's a bit of a fool. Mentality is awful, I've been saying it here for about a year. Will always blame another man for mistakes, never himself. This article is proof, blaming Joe rather than his ability.

Case in point : Cave is at the receiving end of a rubbish pass, which he subsequently drops. I've seen him choose to give out to the passer, rather than chase the ensuing play. Petty, childish, and absolutely not what Schmidt is looking for.

Well you have incited my tempers because you are talking through your backside.
You do not have a clue what Darren Cave is like as a person as your post shows.
Best not to comment on something you know nothing about.

As for his comment on Wilson he is not saying he is as good as Heaslip but pointing out the gap in caps is not reflective of their skill level.
When Wilson was at Saints he was the 2nd best IQ 8 but was never included - shortsighted.

Faces not fitting is a fact.
It is an open secret Trimble is not liked by BOD and has suffered as a consequence.

To be honest it would not surprise me if Tuohy came out without something similar to Cave - he is equally hacked off.

Sorry was offline, exam study taking its toll!

Listen, you can learn a lot about a person from how they conduct themselves on the pitch. I'm entitled to my own perception of the man, especially now that he's issued a statement into the public domain. Human nature dictates you're naturally bound to form an opinion. I've released this into a relatively small forum, in which the man's temperament was indirectly introduced as a topic for discussion.

And you become outraged at someone merely voicing a perception of his character? Simmer down fella! Its a debating forum. We're allowed to question things and voice our opinions here.

That aside, Trimble offers no spark internationally and you know it. He's simply not on the same wavelength. That's why he isn't picked. BOD may not like him, but realistically it wouldn't matter. He isn't good enough.

I agree with you on Touhy though.

Have you somehow failed to see the way Sexton, O'Gara, BOD et all have quite frequently slabbered at other team mates on the international stage? I don't like it. But to say its something Schmidt would look at and dislike just does not make sense! You may be correct about Cave's character, but you are an eejit if you think its relevant to his international selection by either Joe or Deccie before him.

kunu wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

kunu wrote:Don't mean to incite tempers here lads, but in my opinion he's a bit of a fool. Mentality is awful, I've been saying it here for about a year. Will always blame another man for mistakes, never himself. This article is proof, blaming Joe rather than his ability.

Case in point : Cave is at the receiving end of a rubbish pass, which he subsequently drops. I've seen him choose to give out to the passer, rather than chase the ensuing play. Petty, childish, and absolutely not what Schmidt is looking for.

Well you have incited my tempers because you are talking through your backside.
You do not have a clue what Darren Cave is like as a person as your post shows.
Best not to comment on something you know nothing about.

As for his comment on Wilson he is not saying he is as good as Heaslip but pointing out the gap in caps is not reflective of their skill level.
When Wilson was at Saints he was the 2nd best IQ 8 but was never included - shortsighted.

Faces not fitting is a fact.
It is an open secret Trimble is not liked by BOD and has suffered as a consequence.

To be honest it would not surprise me if Tuohy came out without something similar to Cave - he is equally hacked off.

Sorry was offline, exam study taking its toll!

Listen, you can learn a lot about a person from how they conduct themselves on the pitch. I'm entitled to my own perception of the man, especially now that he's issued a statement into the public domain. Human nature dictates you're naturally bound to form an opinion. I've released this into a relatively small forum, in which the man's temperament was indirectly introduced as a topic for discussion.

And you become outraged at someone merely voicing a perception of his character? Simmer down fella! Its a debating forum. We're allowed to question things and voice our opinions here.

That aside, Trimble offers no spark internationally and you know it. He's simply not on the same wavelength. That's why he isn't picked. BOD may not like him, but realistically it wouldn't matter. He isn't good enough.

I agree with you on Touhy though.

Unlike you I have met the man - you are so wrong

Ulster XV and replacements to face Benetton Treviso, Heineken Cup, Ravenhill, Saturday 6th December (kick off 18:00);

(15-9): J Payne, A Trimble, D Cave. L Marshall, C Gilroy, P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): T Court, R Herring, J Afoa, J Muller (Captain), D Tuohy, R Diack, S Doyle, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, C Black, D Fitzpatrick, N McComb, M McComish, P Marshall, M Allen, D McIlwaine.

Clive

Theres a big difference : BOD & Sexton don't take time out of active play to do it- waiting until the ball goes dead. Conversely, the point I originally made is in relation to the ball remaining in the field of play.

Like it or not, coaches will take character into account. Sure look - Deccie stated on record he didn't pick Madigan partly because of his temperament for last year's 6n's! Take a more extreme example : Neil Best -a man sold by his club because of his character, certainly not for lack of ability! Danni Cipriani, half the Aussie team, Mike Phillips, the list is endless. It matters.

I just hope Payne is properly fit

kunu wrote:
: Neil Best -a man sold by his club because of his character, certainly not for lack of ability! Danni Cipriani, half the Aussie team, Mike Phillips, the list is endless. It matters.

To compare Darren Cave with any of those individuals confirms you have completely the wrong end of the stick when it comes to his character

geoff998rugby wrote:

kunu wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

kunu wrote:Don't mean to incite tempers here lads, but in my opinion he's a bit of a fool. Mentality is awful, I've been saying it here for about a year. Will always blame another man for mistakes, never himself. This article is proof, blaming Joe rather than his ability.

Case in point : Cave is at the receiving end of a rubbish pass, which he subsequently drops. I've seen him choose to give out to the passer, rather than chase the ensuing play. Petty, childish, and absolutely not what Schmidt is looking for.

Well you have incited my tempers because you are talking through your backside.
You do not have a clue what Darren Cave is like as a person as your post shows.
Best not to comment on something you know nothing about.

As for his comment on Wilson he is not saying he is as good as Heaslip but pointing out the gap in caps is not reflective of their skill level.
When Wilson was at Saints he was the 2nd best IQ 8 but was never included - shortsighted.

Faces not fitting is a fact.
It is an open secret Trimble is not liked by BOD and has suffered as a consequence.

To be honest it would not surprise me if Tuohy came out without something similar to Cave - he is equally hacked off.

Sorry was offline, exam study taking its toll!

Listen, you can learn a lot about a person from how they conduct themselves on the pitch. I'm entitled to my own perception of the man, especially now that he's issued a statement into the public domain. Human nature dictates you're naturally bound to form an opinion. I've released this into a relatively small forum, in which the man's temperament was indirectly introduced as a topic for discussion.

And you become outraged at someone merely voicing a perception of his character? Simmer down fella! Its a debating forum. We're allowed to question things and voice our opinions here.

That aside, Trimble offers no spark internationally and you know it. He's simply not on the same wavelength. That's why he isn't picked. BOD may not like him, but realistically it wouldn't matter. He isn't good enough.

I agree with you on Touhy though.

Unlike you I have met the man - you are so wrong

Well that's how you approach the debate so! You tell me how I'm wrong and explain why. Before, you simply said I was talking out of my backside, offering no explanation. You have first hand experience with the man, you have much better standing to speak about him. Engage in active discussion rather than dismissing anyone else's view without reason. Thats what makes the forum work.

I'll take your word for it anyway, I was wrong about Cave and detract my previous statements about his character.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Lorcan?
Now there's a name I've never heard before. Good name for a backrower though to be 'Lorcan' around the fringes of the ruck

Wow! Sheltered life or what? I have at least 4 good mates called Lorcan. Tripping over them down here.....

That's because they be 'Lorcan' around all the time

Really is it that common? I swear it's one I've never encountered? It's an Irish name then Jen? Interesting, you never know what you're gonna learn on here.

Anyway, despite our huge injury list that is still a strong side and one that should be too much for Treviso. I never count my chickens but I feel another nice win on the way

geoff998rugby wrote:

kunu wrote:
: Neil Best -a man sold by his club because of his character, certainly not for lack of ability! Danni Cipriani, half the Aussie team, Mike Phillips, the list is endless. It matters.

To compare Darren Cave with any of those individuals confirms you have completely the wrong end of the stick when it comes to his character

There was no direct comparison there. Madigan, Cips, and Neil best don't have anything in common. I'm hardly comparing Cave to the combined flaws in all of them?? Sure that would insinuate he's an awful human being! He isn't of course. I'm not that harsh!

The post was in relation to Clive suggesting that coaches don't take character into account when picking teams. I was providing a list of players who have been discounted for that reason. Not drawing parallels between their exploits and anything Cave has done. Just offering proof that a coach will consider character.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Lorcan?
Now there's a name I've never heard before. Good name for a backrower though to be 'Lorcan' around the fringes of the ruck

Wow! Sheltered life or what? I have at least 4 good mates called Lorcan. Tripping over them down here.....

That's because they be 'Lorcan' around all the time

Really is it that common? I swear it's one I've never encountered? It's an Irish name then Jen? Interesting, you never know what you're gonna learn on here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorcan

Perhaps I am just coincidentally surrounded by them. But I'd say almost everyone down here knows a Lorcan or 2

Does anyone have any knowledge of what props are out of contract this season?

I see the doors have been closed on a few early speculations (du plessis).

But surely it can't be that difficult to figure out who the possibilities are?

Would we give Adam Jones a one/two year contract?

All of them bar Black - Assuming Fitzpatrick, Lutton will be formalities though

The youngesters definitely will be

 

kunu wrote: I'll take your word for it anyway, I was wrong about Cave and detract my previous statements about his character.

Fair play to you for that

It is red rag to a bull with me when someone I know to be a good egg is slated by people who have never met them

geoff998rugby wrote:All of them bar Black - Assuming Fitzpatrick, Lutton will be formalities though

The youngesters definitely will be

I was talking about outside of Ulster. As in, who might Ulster be eying up as our NIQ replacement in the front row?

Any inside info Geoff?

Yep the word seems to be a player who could qualify eventually for Ireland at TH and an IQ for LH

No names though other than the McGrath rumour

Oh right, a project? So its unlikely to be anything like the calibre of Afoa, and perhaps not even a first teamer? Do you get the sense that the coaching staff believe Fitzpatrick is good enough to start most matches for Ulster?

And with Black and McAllister on the loose, do you think the IQ will be significant? Or a fringe player?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Lorcan?
Now there's a name I've never heard before. Good name for a backrower though to be 'Lorcan' around the fringes of the ruck

Wow! Sheltered life or what? I have at least 4 good mates called Lorcan. Tripping over them down here.....

That's because they be 'Lorcan' around all the time

Really is it that common? I swear it's one I've never encountered? It's an Irish name then Jen? Interesting, you never know what you're gonna learn on here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorcan

Perhaps I am just coincidentally surrounded by them. But I'd say almost everyone down here knows a Lorcan or 2

Cheers Jen, I'm genuinely intrigued by things like this.

clivemcl wrote:Oh right, a project? So its unlikely to be anything like the calibre of Afoa, and perhaps not even a first teamer? Do you get the sense that the coaching staff believe Fitzpatrick is good enough to start most matches for Ulster?

And with Black and McAllister on the loose, do you think the IQ will be significant? Or a fringe player?

As good as Fitz has proven to be his injury record doesn't stand up to him being considered as a number one surely? Maybe you just have to have faith in these things and a good run of games from him would see him come on even further. I do hope we can in some way cover the loss of Muller and Afoa. To absorb a loss like that at scrum time is impossible but damage limitation would be fairly soothing.

Could some of fitzpatrick's injuries have been down to the old scrum laws? He hasnt gotten injured since they changed. Or is it just coincidence and wishful thinking on my part?

Both Props will up to 1st XV standard - not what you call World Class though.

Fitzpatrick is fitter than he has ever been that + the new scrum law which has benefited people like him and Black i.e. good technique rather than brawn.

The marquee signings will be Lock and probably backrow

Just seen this tweet from Afoa

Thanks for all the support on both sides, looking forward to the move with the family but have some serious work to do first!!!

Seems the missus is more keen on Gloucester than Belfast  

She must definately be a cider fan then

Wont last.

Not being mean spirited.
I seriously have my doubts

geoff998rugby wrote:Wont last.

Not being mean spirited.
I seriously have my doubts

The marriage or Big John in England?  

So the loose head is IQ, and first XV level. Who in Ireland is there that would be better than Black/McAllister.
McGrath? Healy? Is Moore loose or tight? Kilkoyne?James Cronin
Or have we found ourselves another irish qualified foreigner who hasn’t ben deemed worthy of an international cap?

 Don't under estimate the Irish dispora if McGrath proves to be a dead end

Fortunately it rules Bent out