Bledisloe Cup: Match Thread

[bsando]

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday, August 24
Venue: Westpac Stadium, Wellington
Kick-off: 8.30am UK
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant referees:Craig Joubert (South Africa), Lourens van der Merwe (South Africa)
TMO: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

New Zealand

15 Israel Dagg, 14 Ben Smith, 13 Conrad Smith, 12 Ma'a Nonu, 11 Julian Savea, 10 Tom Taylor, 9 Aaron Smith, 8 Kieran Read, 7 Richie McCaw (capt), 6 Steven Luatua, 5 Sam Whitelock, 4 Brodie Retallick, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Andrew Hore, 1 Tony Woodcock.
Replacements: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Wyatt Crockett, 18 Charlie Faumuina, 19 Jeremy Thrush, 20 Sam Cane, 21 Tawera Kerr-Barlow, 22 Colin Slade, 23 Charles Piutau.

Australia

1. James Slipper (Queensland Reds), 2. Stephen Moore (ACT Brumbies), 3. Ben Alexander (ACT Brumbies), 4. Rob Simmons (Queensland Reds), 5. James Horwill (c - Queensland Reds), 6. Scott Fardy (ACT Brumbies), 7. Michael Hooper (NSW Waratahs), 8. Ben Mowen (ACT Brumbies), 9. Will Genia (vc - Queensland Reds), 10. Matt Toomua (ACT Brumbies), 11. James O’Connor (Melbourne Rebels), 12. Christian Leali’ifano (ACT Brumbies), 13. Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW Waratahs), 14. Israel Folau (NSW Waratahs), 15. Jesse Mogg (ACT Brumbies)

Replacements
16. Saia Fainga’a (Queensland Reds), 17. Scott Sio (ACT Brumbies), 18. Sekope Kepu (NSW Waratahs), 19. Kane Douglas (NSW Waratahs), 20. Liam Gill (Queensland Reds), 21. Nic White (ACT Brumbies), 22. Quade Cooper (Queensland Reds), 23. Tevita Kuridrani (ACT Brumbies)

[blackcanelion]

True, but their backline was a big improvement on June.

[Guest]

True, JOC played really well. AAC, has he ever passed the ball? Folou is very much 'not' world class.

[Guest]

And to be honest, I thought we played pretty poorly.

[blackcanelion]

And to be honest, I thought we played pretty poorly.

Yep. Have to agree.

[ChequeredJersey]

Who do Aus play next and what changes do they make? For all that Hooper played well, Gill has to start I reckon. Maybe give Mogg another go, else move JOC to FB and play Cummins! Toomua didn't really stand up- start for Cooper? Or another go?

[blackcanelion]

Due here in Wellington next week. Not sure what's happening though. Poopie load of earthquakes in the last week or so.

Good ideas. Not sure Cooper is the answer. I'd stick with Toomua. Beale is ultimately the choice fullback I would think.

I think they'll re examine their game plan. They had an edge in places. The scrums were a lottery, they had the edge at lineout and effected some good turn over ball. They can improve.

They'll have to as I think the AB's could improve significantly.

[ChequeredJersey]

Also thinked they missed Palu - need a big carrier in the pack.

For next up:

15- JOC (he played better there and his attack and kicking game were very good today but his positioning in defence was poor, probably as he's not played wing recently?)
14- Folau- but needs to try and get involved. If he's going to be a defensive winger he's a liability
13- AAC (needs to pass more)
12- LLF (played well chargedown aside)
11- Cummins- can make some hard yards and offers a different option to the other 2 back-3 players.
10- Toomua, probably but has lots to work on
9- Genia
8- Schatz? Or Mowen
7- Gill
6- Mowen or MMM
5- Horwill (c.)
4- hard call as lineout went well but they need grunt. Probably Douglas actually
3- Alexander
2- Moore
1- Sio

Mogg on the bench

[maestegmafia]

Also thinked they missed Palu - need a big carrier in the pack.

For next up:

15- JOC (he played better there and his attack and kicking game were very good today but his positioning in defence was poor, probably as he's not played wing recently?)
14- Folau- but needs to try and get involved. If he's going to be a defensive winger he's a liability
13- AAC (needs to pass more)
12- LLF (played well chargedown aside)
11- Cummins- can make some hard yards and offers a different option to the other 2 back-3 players.
10- Toomua, probably but has lots to work on
9- Genia
8- Schatz? Or Mowen
7- Gill
6- Mowen or MMM
5- Horwill (c.)
4- hard call as lineout went well but they need grunt. Probably Douglas actually
3- Alexander
2- Moore
1- Sio

Mogg on the bench

Aussies have quite a decent injury list:-

Tatafu Polota-Nau (hamstring, not sure)  
Peter Kimlin (thumb, at least a month away from making his return)
Polota-Nau (Expected sidelined for a fortnight)
Wycliff Palu (knee, is also a chance to feature at some stage during the Rugby Championship)
Kurtley Beale (shoulde, out for the seasonr)
David Pocock (knee, out for the season)
Scott Higginbotham (shoulder, out for the season)
Pat McCabe (neck, out for the season)
Digby Ioane (shoulder, out for the season)

[ChequeredJersey]

The Aussies always have a long injury list. Must be injury prone or something

[maestegmafia]

The Aussies always have a long injury list. Must be injury prone or something

they are not having much luck...

[disneychilly]

I'd say TPN was missed but Mowen's a good player so Higginbotham's not missed that much and I thought that Hooper had a bloody good game. Great pace to the breakdown. Shame he was up against the King.

Both sides were pretty bloody sloppy really. Australia never got any phase play going and NZ's lineout was a mess. The scrum was still a lottery which was so disappointing. I'd rather the packs be already fully engaged without that mini-hit. Looked like the Aussies got early shoves on a few times. Good to see the halves get pinged for the feeds and it should be better next week.

Luatua had a great game. Was prominent without being too prominent if you know what I mean. Messam's usually mentioned more because he's rangier but I like how Luatua filled Kaino's role with aplomb. Kudos to Aaron Smith who had an excellent game and handled the pressure around the ruck a lot better than he has at test level.

NZ's tries were mainly from Aussie mistakes. Hopefully they can get more ball thus more chances next week. The lack of ball may be worrying too. Not that much of a platform was established due to the nature of the game but having said that NZ always looked the better side.

[Biltong]

Also thinked they missed Palu - need a big carrier in the pack.

For next up:

15- JOC (he played better there and his attack and kicking game were very good today but his positioning in defence was poor, probably as he's not played wing recently?)
14- Folau- but needs to try and get involved. If he's going to be a defensive winger he's a liability
13- AAC (needs to pass more)
12- LLF (played well chargedown aside)
11- Cummins- can make some hard yards and offers a different option to the other 2 back-3 players.
10- Toomua, probably but has lots to work on
9- Genia
8- Schatz? Or Mowen
7- Gill
6- Mowen or MMM
5- Horwill (c.)
4- hard call as lineout went well but they need grunt. Probably Douglas actually
3- Alexander
2- Moore
1- Sio

Mogg on the bench

Aussies have quite a decent injury list:-

Tatafu Polota-Nau (hamstring, not sure)  
Peter Kimlin (thumb, at least a month away from making his return)
Polota-Nau (Expected sidelined for a fortnight)
Wycliff Palu (knee, is also a chance to feature at some stage during the Rugby Championship)
Kurtley Beale (shoulde, out for the seasonr)
David Pocock (knee, out for the season)
Scott Higginbotham (shoulder, out for the season)
Pat McCabe (neck, out for the season)
Digby Ioane (shoulder, out for the season)

The only two there with a realistic chance of making the match day 22 is Beale and Higginbotham.

[ChequeredJersey]

I don't know, tad harsh on Pocock and Palu

[kiakahaaotearoa]

3 years ago Cruden played in Sydney and was subbed off for Slade who looked composed and solid. My how Cruden's grown his game and how we're blessed with depth at 9 and 10. Goes to show the issues at hooker, centre and props can be overcome. Hope Cruden is fine as he limped off. That's my one question mark about him: his durability.

Timani is also injured and badly missed.

[GloriousEmpire]

Told you so. Does this put the lions into context?

[disneychilly]

Steady on GE. We still leaked 29 points which isn't good enough from a defensive setup as good as ours.

[GloriousEmpire]

Exactly. This is a decent wallaby side is the impressive thing. Probably 50% better than the side who played the Lions and better coached and motivated under the new regime of McKenzie - it shows the ABs play positive rugby and defend legally rather than giving away endless three pointers in their own 22 like some of the more negative cynical sides out there. The defence will sharpen, they were very rusty.

[The Saint]

Exactly. This is a decent wallaby side is the impressive thing. Probably 50% better than the side who played the Lions and better coached and motivated under the new regime of McKenzie - it shows the ABs play positive rugby and defend legally rather than giving away endless three pointers in their own 22 like some of the more negative cynical sides out there. The defence will sharpen, they were very rusty.

One game in for McKenzie and Aus get thrashed. Certainly a new era for the Wallabies.

[ChequeredJersey]

Can't blame McKenzie after one game for his players' schoolboy errors, like JOC not taking the outside man for try 1, the sloppy passes, chargedown kick etc

[GloriousEmpire]

You can always tell when the ABs are terrifyingly impressive by the waves of relentless negativity flowing in from north of the equator. Reminds me of 2009!

[disneychilly]

NZ weren't the best side for most of 2009. That was the year the Boks lived up to their title of World Champions by beating the Lions and comprehensively beating NZ on the way to the 3N title. NZ only regained their No 1 status after a substandard AI series for SA and an All Black dismantling of France in Marseille.

[Ozzy3213]

Ah, but disneychilly, when has GE ever let the facts get in the way of his relentlessly incessant cobblers!

[welshy824 (new)]

i really don't see why people rave about Mogg, they did it when the lions played the franchise he plays for (sorry for my ignorance) and he didn't look anything special, and didn't again tonight.

for a first cap toomua brought his backs in ok with the ball he gained, and utilised AAC into the space between Nonu and Cruden where there seemed to be a few defensive weaknesses.
Genia didn't seem his usual self but showed great pace for his try
Folau was quiet
JOC seemed better at fullback than wing but both an improvement on fly half


in regards to NZ
how good is Conrad smith, his pass to set up McCaw for me showed his class, straightened, held the player, then a lovely pass into McCaw. he just does the basics so well
Cruden improving so much
Ben Smith seems to be like Conrad smith reincarnated, right place right time
McCaw not back to his standard but still making turnovers and in critical places too.

overall as a neutral enjoyed the match

[Biltong]

Like I said before the match started, Mogg doesn't do it for me.

[disneychilly]

Ha true Ozzy, I was just in a pick apart BS mood

Mogg was rubbish all right. You don't tackle a centre by jumping on the spot that's for sure. Plus he should really have a better right boot than that.

Was impressed by Dagg too. He provided a lot of go forward without breaking the line-gave NZ crucial momentum in setting up tries.

Conrad Smith's setting up of Ben Smith's second try was sublime. Get your kids to watch how he held the ball with both hands, straightened, sucked in defenders and passed to Dagg whose quick hands to Smith dealt the killer blow.

That's of course if you have children. Cool kids wear lids in my situation.

[The Saint]

You can always tell when the ABs are terrifyingly impressive by the waves of relentless negativity flowing in from north of the equator. Reminds me of 2009!

Of course GE. I bet us nasty folk from the NH are still pushing forward our relentless campaign to ban the haka as well, right?

[Hound of Harrow]

Exactly. This is a decent wallaby side is the impressive thing. Probably 50% better than the side who played the Lions and better coached and motivated under the new regime of McKenzie - it shows the ABs play positive rugby and defend legally rather than giving away endless three pointers in their own 22 like some of the more negative cynical sides out there. The defence will sharpen, they were very rusty.

Feck, some of these comments are so funny (wum) they're not true

But then again, it is GE.

Aus '50% better than their team v the Lions

'NZ defend legally' ...count the 1st half penalties conceded in defence.

"Some of the more cynical sides out there.' Oh my, I'm splitting my sides now.

NZ won the game well by taking advantage of every Aussie error (about 4 leading to tries).

As I said earlier, utterly ruthless in taking their chances.

[The Saint]

Conrad Smith's setting up of Ben Smith's second try was sublime. Get your kids to watch how he held the ball with both hands, straightened, sucked in defenders and passed to Dagg whose quick hands to Smith dealt the killer blow.

I thought Cruden setting up the other one of Smith's try was impressive. NZ were immense, as a neutral I'm really looking forward to the battle with SA. It's probably NZ for the title though, as SA won't do the double over Aus.

[disneychilly]

Yeah I agree with you there Saint. For some reason Aussie knock over SA at home a lot easier than we do.

Cruden's offload was pretty classy-though I was pretty sure it was going to happen and JOC really screwed up as Cruden was going over in the tackle. He set SBW on his way in the 3rd Irish test last year and JOC should have been aware of how he offloads, especially as he has played 10 so would be opposite Cruden on occasion.

I still don't think we played that well to be honest-just that our taking of chances was sublime. Actually if I'd like any facet of our play to be sublime it would be that as obviously it's turning chances into points. We had a shoddy lineout, scrums were a lottery, we didn't consistently keep possession for long enough to deliver a structured platform from which to attack, and we conceded 29 points which should lose you the game on most occasions. The fact that we won by 18 despite all this was great as we'll still have enough to work on to keep us hungry and Australia will know that and it may play into the psyche a bit. If NZ did that to us while being that far from perfect we'd hate to think what would happen if everything was on song.

[Rory_Gallagher]

What do NZ fans think went wrong at the line-out?  They were very poor there.

[Standulstermen]

Plenty of those Aussies have time. It hasn't happened for them yesterday but there will be days like that. They need to be invested in.

Whatever happened to JOC at 12? He played there when he came through did he not and that's as impressed as I have been with him. Mogg is raw but could potentially be very good. Folau will come good if he sticks with union. Hooper was excellent. The rest of the backrow is ok. I expect more from Mowen.

For the All Blacks Conrad Smith is stupidly good. Just plays the game in his head half a second before it transpires on the pitch. Some performance from McCaw too? Aaron Smith reaffirmed his status as NZs best 9 too

[Taylorman]

Well theres not really a lot to say about where the AB's can improve from here- bits and pieces but largely more of the same. Ozzie will talk up next week but they have to make huge improvements all over the park with virtually the same side. I thought the inexperience of the Ozzie backs would be under too much pressure to perform and thats almost understatement now.

Toomua was as expected reduced to a stunned mullet, not offering anything resembling a controlling play role and that spread out wide. In the end they relied on one offs from ONLY those with the real experience at this level- AAC's and JOC's couple of runs, Genias brilliant try and Coopers wide pass to put JOC in. Its that pass that Oz neded and I prattled on about that up to the match as well.

But even those four suffered elsewhere- Cooper with the yips, JOC terribly out of position defensively, Mogg clearly out of his depth defensively, and confidence shattered that he didnt appear on attack, and was hauled off.

The newbies Mogg, Toomua, Lilo and Folau hardly contributed other than Lilo with his goal kicking (and charge down) though Cruden did that to Carter thise year so is a getting to be a master of the charge down.

The redeemer Mackenzie now HAS a test record so his very short honeymoon with the press and public, talking up whatever he felt like during the week is now over. Time to feel what Deans has been feeling with this side, time to turn this side around in one week to face the AB's here in shaky old Wellington.

Personally I dont think he has the players so it doesnt matter what he does during the week. Theyve conceeded 90 points in their last two tests so clearly manning up on defence has to be number one prio. With defensive players of the mogg, Cooper, JOC variety not sure how theyre going to do this.

They wont have the option of turning this into a forward battle because theyre more than matched there as well.

Normally I'd expect a bit of a backlash but this time I'm just not sure this side will improve in one week more than the AB's will, with combinations already working well. For Oz too many individuals in the back who have yet to meet eachother it seems.

I hope they manage to find something to make a go of it but there looked like too many bases were covered by the AB camp to suggest that the jugular is already exposed and the AB's are going to be lining up for the meal next week.

[Taylorman]

I thought Whitelocks yellow card at the end was hard case. 3 times he tried to give or roll the ball back to oz and it kept tangling up with his legs trying to retreat. I meam come on Sam, if youre gonna get carded make some one else a little worse for wear for it!

[maestegmafia]

What did you kiwis think of SA...?

[nganboy]

I thought we were terrible giving all those penalties in the first half. McCaw was almost a blxxdy liability. I thought we kicked too much and needed to hit harder in defence. Our lineout was a bit of a disaster.
29 points - bad!
On the other hand - lethal in attack with Cruden and the 3 Smiths. It was amazing to watch McCaw build into the game from fumbling fool to still charging and pilfering ball at the 70 min mark. Good to see Savea get involved later in the game, Luatua working hard at the end, Barrett and Crotty get some game time.

Expect to see Coles start next week, McCaw to be a lot better lineout and scrum to tighten up.

[Taylorman]

so do Oz have a chance Ngan?

This was a fairly comprehensive win across the board. Oz look too light, they lack real skills and they don't play as a team. Next week we're in Wellington and theyre up against a side that has honed this setup for years, eating out of eachothers pockets so to speak.

Be surprised if its not 20+ at leasrt. Not one player of the side is better than his opposite. Whitewash is all I can see.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

What did you kiwis think of SA...?

They're looking sharp. The big advantage NZ has is 3 home games now against Oz, Arg and SA. We get to review their game against Oz before they play us. If we win our home games the pressure comes off and we can target the jburg test.

[yappysnap]

Pretty impressive from NZ.

Just did what they do best, sit back and let the opposition supply the rope for their own noose.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Think it's a bit more proactive than sitting back and waiting for mistakes. You have to exert pressure to force those mistakes. But it's true Australia will prefer to see that they were the instruments of their own demise and if they cut down on their error rate they will be competitive. NZ will want to put in a big performance to give Wellington something to cheer about after the big earthquakes. That might go both ways though. It could contribute to NZ errors or they could click and it'll be a bloodbath.

Argentinia don't seem comfortable at altitude. Fair enough. No one really is apart from SA. Now they have to turn their home advantage into a weapon. Big turnaround required with key players out but I predict it'll be a lot closer. That defeat will stir them to bigger and better rugby.

[GloriousEmpire]

I thought both results were quite predictable. Very surprised to see some of the reactions here today.

[GloriousEmpire]

ABs will win at a canter, rusty though they are.

As I said earlier.

[nganboy]

Taylorman, Personally I don't see us running up too big a score next week. But then I thought it would be a bit closer yesterday.

I'd be happier to score 3/4 tries rather than 6 if we could nil them! or at least no tries, not too many kickable penalties and tighten up the lineout. I reckon their defence must get a little sharper.

To be fair to our convict cousins Horwill and Genia would probably squeeze into an ANZAC team

[butterfingers]

(First ever post please be gentle)

As I sat in my kitchen yesterday morning full of the twinkle of excitement for the kick off of the Championship I noticed a few things I didn't like.

First was the silence from the Australian crowd, near indifference throughout the build up, it was very dissapointing before a ball had been kicked in anger.

Secondly I was expected a rusty New Zealand to ease into the game with Australia who have played 3 tests recently starting strong. Then I saw the lineups, and was amazed to see some decent club players Mckenzie clearly likes thrown to the wolves, some very recent deboo players with very few caps, and then players with actual experience moved to positions they hadn't played for ages.

I think Mckenzie has thrown this championship, he is looking to build, and he cares little about results, and had nothing but a training tool in mind for this opener. This was probably one of the worst Australian performances I have ever seen, small unit skills were poor, defencive structure and technique was totally missing, there was nothing from Australia that would've threatened any of the top tier sides.

Please don't get me wrong, New Zealand were superb in everything they did, not to say they performed very well either, the lineout was shaky, breakdown was rusty, and certain players such as Read and Cruden just didn't perform the basics essential for a New Zealand satisfactory performance. They thoroughly deserved the win, and the scoreline so please please please don't think I'm downplaying a very good victory.

I think my point is that New Zealand were half cocked, Australia were poor, and the game itself was a huge dissapointment for a neutral, New Zealand hardly need points handed to them on a plate.

To counter my negative comments I thought I'd give a few positives;

Toomua had a good deboo, nothing special but he performed the basics well, and was moderately consistent.

JOC is being mismanaged right now, he is a supremely talented player who beats defenders for fun, but he needs to settle into a position.

The scrum was a bit of a let down, but it was lovely to see short and long arm penalties for the crooked feed, even if it will take a dozen international games being disrupted for 9's to learn. Also I thought the scrum engagement highlighted certain aspects of props abilities that the old hit hid.

I think thats probably the best performance from Aaron Smith i've seen on the international stage, he's showing real potential, and could well be the classy 9 New Zealand have missed for so long.

I have to give some credit to Moore and Horwill, despite being thoroughly beaten they both were excellent and they far outplayed their counterparts.

Oh and Mccaw still has it, he was a constant thorn at the breakdown New Zealand desperately needed, and probably set the tone for the rest of his pack in the second half.

Thank you for reading.

[Taylorman]

Cruden didnt perform the basics and Toomua had a good debut?...geez I must have been watching a different game.

[Taylorman]

Taylorman, Personally I don't see us running up too big a score next week. But then I thought it would be a bit closer yesterday.

I'd be happier to score 3/4 tries rather than 6 if we could nil them! or at least no tries, not too many kickable penalties and tighten up the lineout. I reckon their defence must get a little sharper.

To be fair to our convict cousins Horwill and Genia would probably squeeze into an ANZAC team

they might but not on that performance...Smith was far better than Genia on the day.

[yappysnap]

Smith's pack gave him the perfect platform all game and likewise made sure that Genia was living off sweet fa. You can't judge too much until you guys actual meet a team that'll challenge your pack.

[The Saint]

The talk about the No.9 jersey before this game was that TJ Perenara should be starting ahead of Smith.

[ChequeredJersey]

Smith's pack gave him the perfect platform all game and likewise made sure that Genia was living off sweet fa. You can't judge too much until you guys actual meet a team that'll challenge your pack.

That would be the Boks then

[maestegmafia]

Smith's pack gave him the perfect platform all game and likewise made sure that Genia was living off sweet fa. You can't judge too much until you guys actual meet a team that'll challenge your pack.

That would be the Boks then

That is going to be a very interesting match up. Boks looked strong on the weekend, well drilled, smart and a great set piece.

[butterfingers]

Cruden didnt perform the basics and Toomua had a good debut?...geez I must have been watching a different game.

Within perspective, Toomua was thrown to the wolves with a quality but ultimately different Red inside him, and a very inexperienced 12, with debutants in the pack and missing key breakdown players. On the other hand Cruden had an armchair ride and his tactical kicking was poor, restarts wern't high enough and miscalculated, deep kicks were average, and his bombs were constantly too long. Cruden is a superb talent full of potential but he doesn't have that air of security around him, luckily Australia and South Africa are in poor places right now, and there is little challenge to the armchair ride he has received so far.

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