Money,Money,Money

After what seems an eon Toulon at last have something to show for there Billionare tax loss write off Boss.
Ooo,cynical way back to the days when the great Andrew Merthens boot got them promoted to the top14
the list of top imports is endless going back to the days of Tana Umaga.A well paid rest home for cash
mad stars.There trophy cabinet has been conspicuous by its bareness the Top14 seems the ultimate rich
mans plaything .Like Soccers Premiere ship was and is rich clubs buy success poor ones can`t compete
or go bankrupt trying.Has it helped there National sides with large numbers of imports not qualified for
that side 45% in the case of the Top14.It is simplistic to say young players improve with stars around them
NOT when they take there places and stunt the development of young talent thoughts?

The French League does seem to be going the soccer route - which doesn't seem to benefit the National set up!
That being said there is good reason that some of the French sides have massive squads - More teams than other leagues, more fixtures, an incredibly physical league etc.
Also, the French national side isn't exactly on its knees, WC finalists in '11, yes they had a poor 6N but they rarely have 2 bad tournaments in a row.

There may be a long term impact on player development - but, this could be combatted. The RFU has decided to try and preserve their position by implementing foreign player squad limits.
The FFR could help raise the standard of their 2nd tier league - raising the competition standards effectively doubling the number of teams and increasing the breeding ground for younger talent and exposing them to the next level.
I believe that bringing back the Cup competition would do the same for the RFU sides with Premiership and Championship sides competing against each other - dropping the LV format.

Alan, I agree. I thought the French had brought in a salary cap to avoid this eventuality, so is it simply that teams ignore it and it is not well policed? Disaster waiting to happen

I thought that the salary cap was in place for FFR - but presumably its large enough that they can still purchase any player. Toulon are an anomaly surely! Perhaps there is other incentive than a massive salary - perhaps family members are on the pay role too as admin staff or something.
That all aside from the sunshine and beaches and mad fans etc.

The insurance regulations on France mean any player forced to retire gets a big fat pay out as well.

It depends whether you view the national team as the be all and end all of rugby. International competition is only as popular in France as the league which draws big crowds.

Also the RFU cannot legally do much to limit foreign players at AP clubs so they have started to incentivise giving game time to young English players.

Toulon make a profit. They're not a rich man's play thing (anymore).

propdavid_london wrote:That being said there is good reason that some of the French sides have massive squads - More teams than other leagues, more fixtures, an incredibly physical league etc.

Sorry but that is one of those myths that just isn't true

The T14 has two extra teams, so they play 4 extra league games a season, but have no domestic cup (32 competitive games, + KO Stages), that is exactly the same amount of games that the Jeff, and Welsh Regions have ! And only 4 games extra on top of the other Rabo sides. Feel free to double check on the fixture list below.

http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/rugby/fixtures.php
http://www.rctoulon.com/en/equipe/calendrier-equipe/

propdavid_london wrote:I thought that the salary cap was in place for FFR - but presumably its large enough that they can still purchase any player. Toulon are an anomaly surely!

I think their salary cap is a bit of a bizarre one. I am pretty sure I heard that there are limits they are allowed to spend depending on the amount of cash coming into the club (via gate, sponsorship etc) in an attempt to ensure that the clubs can stay afloat and do not end up going belly up (like in the OPs football analogy).

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Also the RFU cannot legally do much to limit foreign players at AP clubs so they have started to incentivise giving game time to young English players.

Which, unless UKIP get their way, is the most they can do.

Well they can limit the number of players no covered by EU law or Kolpak agreement but that would limit Kiwis and then mostly developing rugby nations including the PIs which wouldn't go down well with the IRB.

Hopefully UKIP don't get their way, multiculturalism is something to cherish not outlaw. Then again some of the Rabo fans would seem to think that players should only play in their homeland (not saying they are pro UKIP mind).

formerly known as Sam wrote:Well they can limit the number of players no covered by EU law or Kolpak agreement but that would limit Kiwis and then mostly developing rugby nations including the PIs which wouldn't go down well with the IRB.

Hopefully UKIP don't get their way, multiculturalism is something to cherish not outlaw. Then again some of the Rabo fans would seem to think that players should only play in their homeland (not saying they are pro UKIP mind).

There are some Rabo 'fans' that think that sides should not feild a player that is from outside of their regional boarders, let alone outside of their nation.

That's right Sam - wasn't that one of the mistermeaners that Lon Welsh were accused of. They fielded a chap with a Kiwi passport pushing them over the matchday squad limit for non EU, Kolpak players.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:That being said there is good reason that some of the French sides have massive squads - More teams than other leagues, more fixtures, an incredibly physical league etc.

Sorry but that is one of those myths that just isn't true

The T14 has two extra teams, so they play 4 extra league games a season, but have no domestic cup (32 competitive games, + KO Stages), that is exactly the same amount of games that the Jeff, and Welsh Regions have !  And only 4 games extra on top of the other Rabo sides.  Feel free to double check on the fixture list below.

http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/rugby/fixtures.php
http://www.rctoulon.com/en/equipe/calendrier-equipe/

propdavid_london wrote:I thought that the salary cap was in place for FFR - but presumably its large enough that they can still purchase any player. Toulon are an anomaly surely!

I think their salary cap is a bit of a bizarre one.  I am pretty sure I heard that there are limits they are allowed to spend depending on the amount of cash coming into the club (via gate, sponsorship etc) in an attempt to ensure that the clubs can stay afloat and do not end up going belly up (like in the OPs football analogy).

with all respect can you seriously compare the LV cup to the rabo or t14 or AP in terms of intensity? might be wrong but thought they were used to give game time to 2nd / 3rd choice players (a bit like the amlin mind)....
4 extra games is not a lot but has an impact on the schedule. look at what Toulouse will have to play within 9 days starting this weekend : clermont away , racing at home and montplelier away. add to that the fact after only 2 games they lost 2 props and one hooker to long term injuries, they will have probably to play some academy guy ful l time against zirakashvili on the left the left and resurect servat at hooker. teams dont have the luxury to blood more than a few youngsters at evry game or they face being in dangerous position in the league.

the salary cap is meaningless for time being as the royalties perceived by the likes of wilkinson on the merchandising and sponsorship are out of the scope. it might change though and that's when clubs like Toulon will be in trouble.

alanmackie6 I think that's perhaps the biggest problem with Toulon - it is hugely damaging to French academy prospects and the French international side itself.

Toulon also have a squad that is quite old collectively.

Interesting looking at England squad vs French squad.

England's oldest player is Parling at 29. France in contrast have 5 players 30+. 6 are also 29.

WhoCares - to be fair games are games, the Rabo/Jeff sides need more squad depth due to having to play during AIs etc.  Also an away game is a (for Rabo sides) in a different country quite often, which can lead to player burn out etc.  Although I do appreciate that the T14 is a pretty brutal league, I don't accept that they 'need' larger higher paid squads because they play more games etc.

Hi whocares -
I'm suggesting that enhancing the Championship/League 2 competition equiv elsewhere would enable more development of home-grown talent than the LV currently does.

Where the LV games are mainly played by Academy + 1 or 2 senior squad players. An enhanced championship would allow the same academy guys (on dual contract) + the rest of the guys playing for the championship clubs.
If there are another 12 championship sides then there are development opportunities across 24 clubs all playing in a high standard. Premiership sides using any academy players or 2nd string guys that aren't dual registered.

scarletspiderman as there are less international call ups in France and England as a league it means there are more of the top players in the league. This leads to more intense and tougher matches.


This is because you have 12 clubs supplying players to 1 international team in the AP. 14 clubs supplying players to 1 international team in the Top 14. Unsurprisingly some teams are unaffected.

In contrast in the Pro12. 12 clubs supply players to 4 international teams. This leads to a significant drop in interest.

It's obvious that playing a full strength side should be better and more intense than playing one that is 2nd string.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:WhoCares - to be fair games are games, the Rabo/Jeff sides need more squad depth due to having to play during AIs etc.  Also an away game is a (for Rabo sides) in a different country quite often, which can lead to player burn out etc.  Although I do appreciate that the T14 is a pretty brutal league, I don't accept that they 'need' larger higher paid squads because they play more games etc.

T14 sides also play during some of the AIs (once) and 6N (twice)! the recipe of success of Toulon is they build their team with players unlilely to be selected by their countries. and it not just about more games but the frequency of such games and the high injury rate as illustrated by my example on Toulouse.

propdavid, pro D2 and even federale 1 (3rd semi pro division) has fierce competition and a fair amiunt foreigners. most good young players are in top 14 academies or in the FFR training grounds not getting real game time anyway.
there is plenty of age group competitions but nobody really gives a toss about them as there is too many of them. most should be scrapped and replaced by your idea : one competition for U20 academy players with a limited amount of squad players in it and better exposure.

Spidey, just because Rabo away games are in foreign countries doesn't mean the trips are particularly arduous. Glasgow, Dublin, Limerick, Edinburgh, Belfast and Cardiff all have easily accessible airports that minimise travelling time. The jaunts to Italy and the clubs without a decently sized neighbouring airport are a bit of a mission but have some sympathy for Newcastle when they travel to Exeter that's a good long road trip. Doesn't get much easier for the London clubs on the coach up to Sale etc.

At the end of the day the Rabo regions/provinces/etc are funded by their unions for the purpose of national team development. The French and English clubs are funded by themselves or private investors. They are set up with the purpose of winning as many games as possible and because of that they will look to have the biggest strongest squad they can afford. The Rabo unions don't want their (we'll settle for clubs for simplicity) to be recruiting squad depth, they want their clubs to develop or sign talent that is nationally qualified so that the national team has more options.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Well they can limit the number of players no covered by EU law or Kolpak agreement but that would limit Kiwis and then mostly developing rugby nations including the PIs which wouldn't go down well with the IRB.

Not likely. PI players are covered by Kolpak. In addition, most PI players in Europe are kiwis. They can/do use a Samoan passport. Additional to this, many kiwis can qualify for British citizenship through one of their parents.

Or in the case of Aaron Mauger a French passport through his Haitian grandmother. Welcome to the fun world of border regulations.

When I wrote this topic it was to point out the dangers of the Top14 following the money no object route.Since at least one famous club went bank rupt,and another was demoted because
of this .Toulon may well now make a profit but it has been a billionares tax dodge for at least a decade.Only recently have they had anything to show for it is there a limit to number of overseas players they can field in a match?France also seem not be doing very well currently
difficult to tell since they have always been inconsistent.Picking overseas based players also
hasn't helped the Boks.As to loyalty will the money guys rush home in order to qualify for RWC 2015?