Munster v Edinburgh, 7 September

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to the new season, Munster and Edinburgh fans.
 
Here we go, then:
 
Saturday 7th September 2013
Kick off: 19:15
Musgrave Park, Cork
Live on TG4/BBC Heedrumhodrum
 
Referee: Marius Mitrea (FIR, 18th competition game)
Assistant Referees: S Gallagher, P Haycock (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Eugene Ryan (IRFU)
TMO: Jude Quinn (IRFU)
 
A. Form - Head to head:
 
Munster v Edinburgh
 
25 Played 25
20 Wins 5
5 Losses 20
0 Draws 0
55 Tries 36
35 Conversions 26
66 Penalties 44
1 Drop Goals 3
546 Points 373
25 Avg. Age 25
 
B. Last season:
 
Saturday 1 September 2012, 20:00, Murrayfield
Edinburgh Rugby 18 - 23 Munster Rugby
 
Saturday 9 February 2013, 19:45, Musgrave Park
Munster Rugby 30 - 3 Edinburgh Rugby
 
C. Teams:
 
1. Munster     
 
15 Denis Hurley
14 Ronan O'Mahony
13 Casey Laulala
12 Ivan Dineen
11 Johne Murphy
10 Ian Keatley
9 Duncan Williams
 
1 James Cronin
2 Mike Sherry
3 Stephen Archer
4 Dave Foley
5 Donncha O’Callaghan
6 Dave O'Callaghan
7 Sean Dougall
8 James Coughlan (C)
 
Replacements:
Damien Varley,
Dave Kilcoyne,
John Ryan,
Billy Holland,
Tommy O’Donnell,
Cathal Sheridan,
JJ Hanrahan,
Cian Bohane.
 
2. Edinburgh  
 
15 Greig Tonks
14 Dougie Fife
13 Nick De Luca
12 Ben Atiga
11 Lee Jones
10 Piers Francis
9 Sean Kennedy
 
1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 WP Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Izak van der Westhuizen
6 Sean Cox (c)
7 Roddy Grant
8 David Denton
 
Substitutes:
16 Aleki Lutui,
17 Geoff Cross,
18 Lewis Niven,
19 Ollie Atkins,
20 Hamish Watson,
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne,
22 Harry Leonard,
23 Jack Cuthbert

cakeordeath wrote:Just a tiny bit depressed.

I went into this firmly with the mindset that we'd get grubbed, so not feeling to bad. That might change though come the next 40...

The Munster back row is looking very good, and James Cronin looks like an exciting option at prop! Keatley controlling the game wonderfully also.

Notch wrote:Munster looking a lot more comfortable moving the ball, much better hands and skills than last year. Very heartening for Penney.

Yeah they very much want to keep the ball alive. I am keen to see if they can continue their season in this vein.

Denton is playing well though which bodes well for Scotland!

Edinburgh haven't had the ball!

Treviso 19 24 Spreys - 5 minutes to go, incredibly close.

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's one of the softest yellows I've seen in a long time - wasn't dangerous in the slightest!

Still stupid from Jones

I rarely see things in munsters favour (naturally being on the Leinster wagon) but that was a definite yellow. I don't think advantage should have been played. Just whistle and card. You tackle a guy in the air and that is dangerous. You have a tackled player off the ground then you are responsible to bring him back to ground safely. The winger held Coughlan by the hips tipped him over and put him to ground head/shoulders first. Only Coughlan having his arms raise to soften the impact prevented serious injury. That was also dangerous. So 2 reasons why it was a correct yellow card.

And I ain't a Munster fan.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's one of the softest yellows I've seen in a long time - wasn't dangerous in the slightest!

Still stupid from Jones

I rarely see things in munsters favour (naturally being on the Leinster wagon) but that was a definite yellow. I don't think advantage should have been played. Just whistle and card. You tackle a guy in the air and that is dangerous. You have a tackled player off the ground then you are responsible to bring him back to ground safely. The winger held Coughlan by the hips tipped him over and put him to ground head/shoulders first. Only Coughlan having his arms raise to soften the impact prevented serious injury. That was also dangerous. So 2 reasons why it was a correct yellow card.

And I ain't a Munster fan.

By the letter of the law it was correct, but it really wasn't dangerous.

A standard head on tackle is much more dangerous than Jones' hit

Atiga off for some doughnuts. That speed merchant Cuthbert now on.

Bet Munster are pooing themselves now.

Great try by De Luca

Great try!

Not a big fan of De Luca but credit where it's due that was a great try

Typical bloody Edinburgh - ball out on the full straight from a kick off!!!

Ffs Edinburgh.

And classic Edinburgh. C0ck up the exit strategy and concede a try

Although pretty sure there was a forward pass between two of the Munster forwards in the build up to the phase beforehand

There was glove - Munster have definitely rode their luck so far

That re start was unforgivable though

Cuthbert is the world's slowest winger

I think we will have to give Solomon till Xmas before knowing how he wants Edinburgh to play, etc.

It will be a long season for them.

Leonard on with 20 minutes to engineer two tries and a sneaky drop goal.
Simples.

Well just the 2 tries needed now...

RDW_Scotland wrote:Cuthbert is the world's slowest winger

Haters gonna hate
Alligators gonna alligate

Early contender there from Edinburgh for worst pass of the season award...

IanBru wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Cuthbert is the world's slowest winger

Haters gonna hate
Alligators gonna alligate

To be fair, there are tectonic plates which move more quickly than Cuthbert.

JJ Hanrahan - really, really excited about him.

... And that throwing the ball away with gay abandon leads to another Munster try. And ends the game as a contest  

Great finish by Lee bad boy Jones  

if the score finished at 34-23 I'd be quite happy with that for Edinburgh, I mean last season was 33-0 so this is already infinitely better!!

Tramptastic wrote:if the score finished at 34-23 I'd be quite happy with that for Edinburgh, I mean last season was 33-0 so this is already infinitely better!!

Yes, but I'll be disappointed if we didn't get something out of the game. Especially since we've gifted Munster over half of their tries

Good tackle from o donnell

Well good fight back & some spirit show. But ultimately we shot ourselves in the foot far too often.

aye, some of the tries were soft but then new coach, new systems etc... However I would say that the floodgates didnt happen at the end like they did a lot of the time last season! The attitude is clearly being tended to, the rugby will come!

Tell you what, if Edinburgh just stopped giving teams 3 try head starts we'd stand a chance in a lot of games!

Disappointing start really but there are some positives to take away. 5 tries against is grim reading but 34-23 is a relatively respectable scoreline compared to what it could have been. Munster thouroughly deseverd their BP win but didn't half ride their luck along the way - that try where it bobbled off the guys feet and straight in the number 8's hands was a freak, one of the tries came from a fairly squint looking lineout and one of the tries had at least 2 suspect looking passes in the buildup! We needed some luck and didn't get it, but cannot dispute the result.

Positives

We scored 2 good tries - both had good build up play as a team and some individual skill. There are some parts of the 'Edinburgh way' worth maintaining and glad to see we can still score.

Scrum stood up very well - when was the last time we left Munster with more scrum penalties than they got??

WP Nel had a strong game - solid in the tight and that chase back at the end shows his fitness

Sam Metrosexual-Hidalgo-Clyne looked lively when he came on - the scrum half factory is alive and well in Scotland still

Ford and Denton carried well

Niven stood up well on the loose head - I feared the worst when he came on but he did very well


Negatives

Restarts, restarts, restarts - 3 times we got points on the board and straight away messed up the re-start, directly leading to tries or penalty goals against us. Why are we so bad at these??

Open field defence was shocking - Omar has got his work cut out to get us some shape very quickly

We still have the massive inconsistencies that dog our game. We do some really good stuff straight away mess it up with some terrible play. Example - work hard to get a penalty just in their half near the end, kick it to touch, and mess up the lineout!

Francis had a poor game. I don't think it is a coincidence that when he's having to be goal kicker the rest of his game deteriorates. Leonard looked composed when he came on but we really can't chop and change our 10 like last year - we need to stick with one. Maybe it has to be Leonard.

Sean Kennedy had a poor game. His decision making was slow and his box kicks were poor. His terrible pass directly led to a try when we had just got ourselves back in the game

Atiga clearly wasn't fit - why was he played??

Cuthbert -  - all that needs to be said

My Edinburgh player ratings

1 Niven - 7. Stood up well after Dickinson went off early

2 Ford - 6. Good carries but we need more from him

3 Nel - 8. Edinburgh best player IMO. Solid in the scrum and a lot of work round the park.

4 Gilchrist - 6. The odd carry but a quiet night

5 VDV - 6. See Gilchrist.

6 Cox - 7. Does what Cox does best but just too slow to be a 6.

7 Grant - 6. Quite evening - didn't notice him much. He needs to step up and be one of Edinburgh's senior players and start leading from the front.

8 Denton - 6. Big carries as always but again a quiet game.

9 Kennedy - 4. Slow decision making, poor box kick, horrific pass that led to a Munster try. Not a good night.

10 Francis - 5. Poor performance. Missed 2 kickable penalties, kicks out of the full and ineffective lead from 10.

11 Jones - 5. Well taken try but still a revolving door in defence. Stupid yellow

12 Atiga - 4. Not fit - shouldn't have played.

13 De Luca - 7. Lively in attack and very well taken try. Again like Ford we need much more from him.

14 Fife - 6. Quiet game, not involved very much apart from one nice break

15 Tonks - 6. Solid again at the back, one dropped high ball aside, but it did look like he was being fairly well impeded.

Excellent - we'll swap you the dynamic Pyrgos for the the lethargic Kennedy

For Munster, I thought there were signs of Penney's style starting to come through.  Glimpses of a backline playing like a tight knit unit, the way the Munster pack has always played.  A few small things I noticed like very slick moves in the backline.  For example players offloading to players who were running back into the line from offside positions - very difficult to defend against.  Also the 9 running around the scrum to take an offload from the 8 at the back but then the 8 throwing a long pass to the outside backs on the other side of the scrum.  As I said,  I think Penney's game is starting to come through in this Munster team.

The likes of Penney, Schmidt and Anscombe are doing irish rugby a lot of favours.

Good win but lots to do still for Munster. Scoreline a lot closer than reality. Cant believe E'burgh were within 20 points with 10 mins to go, too many silly mistakes by us against a very poor team.

Having said that the number of passes going to ground or mistakes in traffic compared to last year were a lot less.

Dublin tomorrow for the All Ireland final...a good weekend of sport.

Artful_Dodger wrote:For Munster, I thought there were signs of Penney's style starting to come through.  Glimpses of a backline playing like a tight knit unit, the way the Munster pack has always played.  A few small things I noticed like very slick moves in the backline.  For example players offloading to players who were running back into the line from offside positions - very difficult to defend against.  Also the 9 running around the scrum to take an offload from the 8 at the back but then the 8 throwing a long pass to the outside backs on the other side of the scrum.  As I said,  I think Penney's game is starting to come through in this Munster team.

It was probably the most Canterbury-like performance by Munster yet. Theres a long way to go but maybe Munster have turned a corner under Penney. It was never going to be an overnight thing anyway. I also think ROG's retirement helps. He was a great servant but Munster played much better with Keatley last season than ROG. ROG just wasn't suited to that style.

profitius wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:For Munster, I thought there were signs of Penney's style starting to come through.  Glimpses of a backline playing like a tight knit unit, the way the Munster pack has always played.  A few small things I noticed like very slick moves in the backline.  For example players offloading to players who were running back into the line from offside positions - very difficult to defend against.  Also the 9 running around the scrum to take an offload from the 8 at the back but then the 8 throwing a long pass to the outside backs on the other side of the scrum.  As I said,  I think Penney's game is starting to come through in this Munster team.

It was probably the most Canterbury-like performance by Munster yet. Theres a long way to go but maybe Munster have turned a corner under Penney. It was never going to be an overnight thing anyway. I also think ROG's retirement helps. He was a great servant but Munster played much better with Keatley last season than ROG. ROG just wasn't suited to that style.

hmmm....that old chestnut. Last year we didn't exactly shine with Keatley either...he still makes mistakes and is unproven under pressure (too many errors) and again as most of the faithful know and are aware we would not have got anywhere in the HC without ROG (seems Mr Penney agrees as well).

Keatley is not the solution but is a good player. JJ is the solution....

that is all. Up the rebels.

ME-109 wrote:

profitius wrote:
It was probably the most Canterbury-like performance by Munster yet. Theres a long way to go but maybe Munster have turned a corner under Penney. It was never going to be an overnight thing anyway. I also think ROG's retirement helps. He was a great servant but Munster played much better with Keatley last season than ROG. ROG just wasn't suited to that style.

hmmm....that old chestnut. Last year we  didn't exactly shine with Keatley either...he still makes mistakes and is unproven under pressure (too many errors) and again as most of the faithful know and are aware we would not have got anywhere in the HC without ROG (seems Mr Penney agrees as well).

Keatley is not the solution but is a good player. JJ is the solution....

that is all. Up the rebels.

I think Munster went back to a more traditional type of game in the HEC and stats showed they scored more tries with Keatley playing. So horses for courses. I think Keatley is a confidence player and will be better with more games but I agree that JJ is the future Munster 10.


Enjoy the match, it could be a cracker. Up the rebels  

I agree...however I would like to see him boss a game like ROG when it matters...I just feel he likes to disappear sometimes during a game.

Also presently surprised with D Williams so far this year considering he was abject last year. Definitely the Penney game suits him and was getting quick ball away and was very good around the park.

Watched extended highlights now.
 
1. The scoreline was not really a reflection of Munster's dominance but similarly it is undeniable that at least two of the tries were gift wrapped by Edinburgh - they couldn't have been more welcoming if accompanied by some sweeties and hooker.
 
2. What is the rationale for favouring Francis? I'm not wumming, that's a serious question. Every time I have seen him replaced with someone (Leonard or Hunter), Edinburgh have looked much, much better. I really would look to start with Leonard if Solomons is determined not to put Laidlaw back in a 10 shirt.
 
3. Only really saw the Kennedy mistake which led to the try but it was something of a howler. Really want to see what Grayson Hart can do. The guy should at least be a level head and quick ball.
 
4. I don't think that Solomons will be too disappointed by this. Munster are a biatch to beat away from home and Edinburgh without Laidlaw, Visser and Scott are really only half a team. Particularly if Cuthbert plays too - the only winger who has never stepped anyone in his entire career.

Tell you what, next week's game at home to the Dragons really is a must win game for Edinburgh. The coaching team needs something to build on and it will be increasingly difficult to build a team and a style of play if the players are losing every week. Will be a tough one though because the Dragons will be on a high after their win over Ulster.

Munster are away to Treviso, and we know how tough they are at home!

Mean no disrespect but a lot of our stuff wouldn't work against better teams, we didn't seem to build through the phases that often almost instantly goin through the backs, it worked at times and others it didn't.

Williams takes too much out of the ball and offers no threat to defenders and least he reversed it back inside once or twice though. Scrum looked decent and I like Cronin's potential. We looked far more threatening with Sheridan in my opinion.


The style seems to be clicking more but the scoreline flatters how ineffective we were at times, a good start to the season nonetheless with possibly the greatest fluke of a try ever for Coughlan. O'Mahony more or less tripped over the ball flicked it over his head and it popped up to Coughlan, it was unreal! (Ended up being  kind of like the rainbow flick in soccer)

Spoiler:

Pooor corwd again, combination of Cork playing tickets being too expensive (20 quid for a Rabo game is the standard but I think it is far too much really) and getting the same games year in year out down here. If Munster start to show they give a toss about ther Rabo maybe more would go.

Thomond - no offence taken and I think Munster fans should bear in mind that this Edinburgh team is a team whose coach only arrived a few weeks ago, and whose new defence coach has only had 1 week with the squad to implement a new defensive system!

We signed, sealed and delivered at least 2 tries, and our open field defence was terrible.

So definitely some promising signs of the new Munster way, but I think you need to bear in mind what you were up against!

Really don't understand why Leonard hasn't been given more opportunities; distributes well, attacks the line, solid enough defender, decent kicking game and reliable goal-kicker. What am I missing with him?

Rate Kennedy, one poor pass yesterday apart I thought his service was good and bossed the pack well. Similar type scrum-half to Aaron Smith (better than Genia imo), would prefer he was Laidlaw's deputy.

Omar has his work cut out for sure, un-doing two years of McGinty's work will take time.  If Edinburgh weren't leaking 2/3 soft tries a game they'd be a totally different prospect.

Was impressed with the scrum as well, often an achilles heel for Edinburgh but maybe the new rules will suit them.  Still losing too many crucial line-outs though, not convinced it's 100% Ford's fault but I do wish he'd fire it in rather than his trademark looping delivery.

Could Glasgow send Swinson across for an afternoon to explain to the Edinburgh forwards what graft actually is, he was everywhere on Friday night.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Thomond - no offence taken and I think Munster fans should bear in mind that this Edinburgh team is a team whose coach only arrived a few weeks ago, and whose new defence coach has only had 1 week with the squad to implement a new defensive system!

We signed, sealed and delivered at least 2 tries, and our open field defence was terrible.

So definitely some promising signs of the new Munster way, but I think you need to bear in mind what you were up against!

On the other side of the argument, RDW, this is nowhere near the Munster 1st team.

Inevitably in the first game of the season there is a lot of ring-rustiness despite pre-season friendlies. Edinburgh were under considerable handicaps with a number of key players injured, new coach etc as you mentioned. But although i didn't see much of Edinburgh last season, I thought this performance was somewhat better than a lot of the drivel they served up last year. I hope they improve on that and become competitive at least in the Rabo.

For Munster, as other posters have said, some evidence of the Penney way of playing. And unlike last year when they seemed at times to crab across the field from one sideline to the other with no go forward at least yesterday there seemed more purpose. I also thought that the support was better for the ball carriers, usually there was someone on the shoulder to receive an offload. Duncan Williams surprised me. I had written him off after last year when i thought he was pretty woeful, especially as the word was that Sheridan was going to overtake him in the SH pecking order. Williams was far better in this game than last season. JJ's try struck me as being a pure inside centre's try, the way he came flying through onto the ball. Is he an IC rather than a fly-half? We saw him at 10 in the JWC mainly because Ruddock had no-one else to put there, but JJ was IC before that. However without him, Munster are a bit light on 10s.

Keatley will have to put in some serious kicking practice. I'm not really sure why he got MOTM although I will admit I have no other candidate.

Altogether really not much more than an adequate result given the position of the opposition. Lots of work to be done, but also a decent crop of new players being given a taste of senior competition.

Just seen some of the game again on alba - really was criminal that Edinburgh got back to 22-13 and from the resultant restart kicked it out on the full, leading to a try back straight away. So frustrating!

Yep RDW, Edinburgh aren't a great side I would agree but there were positives.

Also that try I was talking about, very very weird

Spoiler: