*rich* Referees Just Don't Get It

First topic message reminder :

A deliberate professional acknowledged foul as Juan pulls the jersey of Francis Saili, who otherwise was chasing a lose ball in his own and would obviously have scored a vital fourth try.

No yellow card.

But we have twenty minutes of advantage played after ever single scrum.

FFS. The IRB need to sort out the consistency. The game shouldn't be about 80 minutes of set pieces and penalties.

Another game killed by the officials. But this time he has managed to influence the entire tournament.

7.5 as I've said before. You may look to NZ to lead in the world in rugby innovations and this is only natural, but the issue is not NZ's to solve. It's a problem at the IRB...and as we've seen plentiful examples, the IRB tend to operate orthogonally to the wishes of NZ.

It is a shame that Brand All Blacks don't do more for the sport. Maybe their upcoming refs get tummy upsets too.

GloriousEmpire wrote:7.5 as I've said before. You may look to NZ to lead in the world in rugby innovations and this is only natural, but the issue is not NZ's to solve. It's a problem at the IRB...and as we've seen plentiful examples, the IRB tend to operate orthogonally to the wishes of NZ.

And as I've said I realise that NZ don't appoint to the elite refs, the panel at the IRB do. I'm just asking your opinion on who should be being considered from NZ. You previously stated plenty has been done to get more ethnic minorities into reffing there. So who would be on your shortlist?

Is there anyone barring a coach who you would put forward. I'm quite surprised if that were the case after you said that NZ had done enough to help get Maori or islander officials sufficiently represented.

Tama Iti is quite handy, I'd recommend him without question.

I think this wraps up your campaign then. Quite a list of refs in NZ you give here. The fact you think this is sufficient representation is quite surprising even for you given your mini crusade here!

Not at all. If you think its acceptable for a profession to be dominated unnaturally by one demographic then we part ways.

I think a few things are being done in England. We're seeing more black and mixed race players coming into elite teams and I think we'll see a shift with fans, officials and coaches in the next ten years. You seem to think that the representation in NZ is sufficient. I believe you're lying and your lack of ability to name in a short list of reasonable names shows you for what you are....

Glen Jackson. I rest my case.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Glen Jackson. I rest my case.

You must have been a bit wary of relying on Glen Jackson since I was the one who first threw him into the discussion. And you would have been right. That's because we take full credit here in England for his progress as a referee.

Jackson passed his RFU referee exams, and became a member of the Hertfordshire Referees Society, before the NZRU got anywhere near him. Indeed, Lyndon Bray, the NZRU's high performance referee manager, is on record saying it was great that England "embraced and supported Glen’s desire to develop his skills in refereeing".

Jackson isn't the result of any proactive NZRU policy towards non-white referees. You still have your case to make. I don't think you are going to be able to do it

Wow that list is comprehensive GE... NZ really are pushing the boundaries as you say.

Is there a sarcasm smiley?

Rugby Fan wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Glen Jackson. I rest my case.

You must have been a bit wary of relying on Glen Jackson since I was the one who first threw him into the discussion. And you would have been right. That's because we take full credit here in England for his progress as a referee.

Jackson passed his RFU referee exams, and became a member of the Hertfordshire Referees Society, before the NZRU got anywhere near him. Indeed, Lyndon Bray, the NZRU's high performance referee manager, is on record saying it was great that England "embraced and supported Glen’s desire to develop his skills in refereeing".

Jackson isn't the result of any proactive NZRU policy towards non-white referees. You still have your case to make. I don't think you are going to be able to do it

"England Take Credit For Skills of New Zealander", hardly stops the press does it? It's like how you guys developed Nick Evans for us and Leinster developed Brad Thorn for us...

If you want to bury you head in the sand over the flagrant ethnic skew in our refereeing population and pretend that doesnt have anything to do with the sub-standard refereeing we see at the moment then be my guest, but it's not going to solve the problem to do so. And coat-tailing on Kiwi talent yet again is becoming quite a tired look for England. Suggest the RFU mans up and addresses some of its issues.

GloriousEmpire wrote:... the flagrant ethnic skew in our refereeing population...

By "our", I take it you mean New Zealand, where Maori and islanders are all but absent despite making up a healthy proportion of the playing population.

Perhaps if you stopped burying your head in the sand over that issue, gave up the half-hearted attempt to pretend that the NZRU was somehow leading the way in promoting non-white referees, and looked instead at why New Zealand has failed the IRB just as much as any other union, then you might make better progress.

Well you have 1 ref by the sound of it. Trained here. I'll give you David Rose, controversy free (ish). Not sure why you think ethnic background has anything to do with how good refs are though.

Aha, it doesn't 7.5...which makes it all the more suspicious that all the international refs we have come from such a narrow demographic.

Ah so by 'the flagrant ethnic skew in our refereeing population and pretend that doesnt have anything to do with the sub-standard refereeing we see at the moment' you meant the exact opposite. Cunning. You've skirted around the issue long enough. Why do you feel it's suspicious?

No, I mean exactly that.

If you assume that talent is normally distributed across the human population. Then if you select entirely from one demographic then it means you naturally deny yourself the talent of those excluded demographics. Hence your sample population is less strong than it could be.

My proposition is that the lack of diversity in the refereeing population and the standard of refereeing we see is directly correlated.

So we come back to an early point which you bypassed to have a go at the IRB. You need to increase participation in rugby by ethnic minorities in places like Britian, France which will then translate along to fans, officials and coaches. The 2nd point is that refs from Japan need to move to countries with top class leagues to see if they can cope. Both these are a tier below where you're aiming accusations (IRB panel).

The assumption that non-white referees just aren't up to the job and need help is a bit condescending.

As with everything to be considered at the top end of your game you need to prove it. For me if you allow people to miss steps out along the way just because of their ethnicity it's not fair on anyone. They're likely to fail, someone better qualified will be overlooked. A place like England hasn't had a great representation with ethnic minorities in the past but finally that looks like it's changing. We should see a knock on effect which will see the numbers of officials and coaches rise due to this greater exposure.

Why would you assume people need to miss steps out along the way?

The fault is not with the non-white referees surely? but with the selection process that seems to unnaturally favour them in some way?

So you believe that the IRB refs panel is deliberately not picking ethnic minority refs because of their colour or because the representation isn't there? I believe it's the latter. I've explained why this could be in England. To pick someone like Rose who isn't the next best in line would be unfair to me.

Any answer yet GE?

It's a horse and cart Argument. And I find it fascinating. Just what is the cause of under representation in refereeing that we clearly see amongst players? Why don't the world clamour for Samoan referees like they clamour for Samoan players? Or more to the point, why do Samoans find international and club representation far beyond their population profile? Surely we don't subscribe to eugenics? Isn't rugby a "game for all shapes and sizes"? Whatever environmental factors exist amongst Samoan demographics that might promote rugby playing surely these must exist elsewhere? What is going in here? And why aren't their sociologists involved?

Still avoiding actual questions.