Rich English clubs "bully" Welsh regions ?

Well according to Dale McIntosh they do, he reckons because of the money they have they are taking the players that he wants to keep:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32135899

What do you make of his comments ? I reckon he has a point, not about bullying, but the fact that they can offer our players more than we can means that we are always going to struggle with the clubs from England, especially now they are having more money.

If it is a young(ish) player that they really want to keep and spend money on, he can moan. When it is a guy at the end of his career who will probably have been a back-up player for Blues what he means is "Adam was unwilling to take the cut in pay we offered to him"

LordDowlais wrote:

What do you make of his comments ? I reckon he has a point, not about bullying, but the fact that they can offer our players more than we can means that we are always going to struggle with the clubs from England, especially now they are having more money.

Hardly a new topic though, Lord.  I know I lost my typing fingers keying in heaps of junk on that very topic for over a year.  English/French clubs make more money on new deals and newly organised contests, they then come calling with big inducements to attract the 'terrible grade' players from Pro12 over to the Big Boy Leagues where a better class of people live with the ability to buy soft furnishings for their apartments and things

Its that time of year again, we will see players leaving to join English and French sides. And again (with the exception of when the regions future was in doubt) it will be either players who are at the end of their careers (Adam Jones), or players who do not see any welsh caps in their future (Priestland) that are leaving. Whilst it does weaken the regional sides, it is not really any different from us plundering the SH nations for players.

Market forces. Simple as that. Next...

Blame the WRU.

I wonder if the likes of Phillips,Roberts,Halfpenny and North would move away from the Welsh regions if they suddenly found that they were barred from playing for Wales.

WRU have not sufficiently protected the Welsh regions.

The Dragons have signed a couple of Wasps boys. Francis from Exeter is being linked with a Welsh region. Some of the welsh players who left for England are coming back. We're all at it. That's professional sport.

'shocked, the moves from Halfpenny and Foxy last season, as well as the moves by Hook and Charteris to Glaws, were during the time when there were question marks around whether the regions would be in existence this season.

In recent years, it has only really been Phillips, Gethin Jenkins and Roberts who upped sticks as certain first team players to head for France/England (ignoring last season when the regions were at war with the union).

LordDowlais wrote:Well according to Dale McIntosh they do, he reckons because of the money they have they are taking the players that he wants to keep:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32135899

What do you make of his comments ? I reckon he has a point, not about bullying, but the fact that they can offer our players more than we can means that we are always going to struggle with the clubs from England, especially now they are having more money.

What surprises me is that the management allow him to comment as he often tends to put his foot in it.

Griff wrote:The Dragons have signed a couple of Wasps boys.  Francis from Exeter is being linked with a Welsh region.  Some of the welsh players who left for England are coming back.  We're all at it.  That's professional sport.  

Tom James (Exeter Chiefs) - Blues
Tom Issacs (Gloucester) - Blues
Blaine Scully (Leicester Tigers) - Blues
Ed Jackson (Wasps) - Dragons
Charlie Davies (Wasps) - Dragons
Tom Price (Leicester) - Scarlets
Will Thomas (Wasps) - Scarlets

Are all confirmed from the English Prem to the regions for the coming season.  Add to that the lads that came in last season

George Watkins (Bristol)- Blues
Craig Mitchell (Exeter Chiefs) – Blues
Bruce Douglas (Bristol) – Dragons
Rhys Buckley (Moseley) -Dragons
Ian Gough (London Irish) - Dragons
Dave Young (Jersey) - Dragons
Lloyd Fairbrother (Exeter Chiefs) - Dragons
Andy Powell (Wigan Warriors) - Dragons
Cai Griffiths (London Welsh) - Ospreys
Josh Matavesi (Worcester Warriors) - Ospreys
Joel Matavesi (Exeter U18) - Ospreys (I believe)
Martin Roberts ( Bath) - Ospreys
Dan Lydiate ( Racing) - Ospreys
Chris Hala’ufia (London Irish) -Scarlets (technically)
Michael Tagicakibau (Saracens) - Scarlets
Peter Edwards (London Welsh) - Scarlets
Ollie Berkley (Grenoble) - Scarlets

We definitely take players from them too.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well according to Dale McIntosh they do, he reckons because of the money they have they are taking the players that he wants to keep:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32135899

What do you make of his comments ? I reckon he has a point, not about bullying, but the fact that they can offer our players more than we can means that we are always going to struggle with the clubs from England, especially now they are having more money.

What surprises me is that the management allow him to comment as he often tends to put his foot in it.

Another thing he has in common with Pat Lam then

ScarletSpiderman wrote:We definitely take players from them too.

Yes, but are they one's that they want to keep ? Dale is talking about players who we do not want to leave but they are having pound signs fluttered in front of them.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:'shocked, the moves from Halfpenny and Foxy last season, as well as the moves by Hook and Charteris to Glaws, were during the time when there were question marks around whether the regions would be in existence this season.

In recent years, it has only really been Phillips, Gethin Jenkins and Roberts who upped sticks as certain first team players to head for France/England (ignoring last season when the regions were at war with the union).

11 of the current Welsh squad play outside Wales out of 37.

6 in England, 5 in France.

6 of them are probably first choice - Hibbard, Halfpenny,North,Davies,Roberts and Charteris -That's a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales_national_rugby_union_team

Thing is this has always happened even in the amateur days. Only difference is now its all above board and suddenly the teams that were doing the 'poaching' in the amateur days are having it done to them they don't like it.

'shocked, going by that link, the first choice boys are the ones in bold, and the ones are only there because of another player being out injured (as in not a regular, not likely to be at RWC unless injury strikes again)

Scott Baldwin Hooker Ospreys
Kristian Dacey  Cardiff Blues
Richard Hibbard Gloucester
Ken Owens  Scarlets

Scott Andrews  Cardiff Blues
Rob Evans  Scarlets
Tomas Francis Exeter Chiefs
Rhys Gill Prop  Saracens
Paul James Bath (returning this summer)
Aaron Jarvis Ospreys
Gethin Jenkins Cardiff Blues
Samson Lee Scarlets

Jake Ball Scarlets
Luke Charteris Glaucester
Bradley Davies Wasps
Alun Wyn Jones Ospreys

James King Ospreys
Dan Lydiate Flanker Ospreys
Justin Tipuric Ospreys
Sam Warburton (c) Cardiff Blues
Taulupe Faletau Newport Gwent Dragons

Gareth Davies Scarlets
Mike Phillips Racing Métro
Rhys Webb Ospreys

Gareth Anscombe Cardiff Blues
Dan Biggar Wales Ospreys
Rhys Priestland Scarlets (Bath soon)

Cory Allen Cardiff Blues
Jonathan Davies Clermont
Tyler Morgan Newport Gwent Dragons
Jamie Roberts Racing Métro
Scott Williams Scarlets

Hallam Amos Newport Gwent Dragons
Alex Cuthbert Cardiff Blues
George North Northampton Saints
Leigh Halfpenny  Toulon
Liam Williams Scarlets

So of those regular 6 regular starters Hibbard, Foxy and Halfpenny left during the turmoil around the WRU/Regions issue, and Charteris looked likely to return before the turmoil too.  So that only leave Roberts (who is possibly not a first choice with Scott Williams breathing down his neck), and North (who was shat on by both region and union) who went when the regions wanted them (and were able to offer them stability).

The likes of Gill, and Francis are not really on the radar and were only there as we have been decimated in the front row.  And even Paul James and Bradley Davies are not necessarily safe in the squad, as Rob Evans could well oust James from the loosehead bench position, and Bradley Davies could well lose his squad place if Gats decides to go with 3 locks, and have James King cover (making space for Dan Baker in the squad as a back row option).

P.S. you could even discount Hibbard and Charteris from the playing abroad list, as they are at Gloucester, which is pretty much Wales

SS,

I would say now that Baldwin is 1st choice he had a great 6 Nations that aside agree.

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:We definitely take players from them too.

Yes, but are they one's that they want to keep ? Dale is talking about players who we do not want to leave but they are having pound signs fluttered in front of them.

Here's a thought, maybe he expects that some of these players who leave can be allocated back to us for nowt?

http://www.ponty.net/pontypridd-rfc-blues-player-allocation

bedfordwelsh wrote:Thing is this has always happened even in the amateur days.  Only difference is now its all above board and suddenly the teams that were doing the 'poaching' in the amateur days are having it done to them they don't like it.

Indeed and I worked with a bloke who left a club's 3rd XV for another coz he was offered an extra tenner per game. That was around 20 years ago.

scarletspiderman prop is not an area of strength for Wales these days.

You say Gill and Francis aren't on the radar - well quite clearly they are because they are in the squad.

After Samson Lee - there are a lack of tight heads.

Rhys Gill is not a prop I particularly rate personally but he's favoured by the Saracens coaching staff. He also has opportunities to stake his claim at LH whilst he's in contention for silverware.

Gill could well be 3rd choice behind Jenkins and James.

Francis could well be 2nd choice or even 1st!

Gatland wouldn't have fast tracked Francis into the Welsh squad if he didn't want him to play.

bedfordwelsh wrote:SS,

I would say now that Baldwin is 1st choice he had a great 6 Nations that aside agree.

I actually put Baldwin down as first choice, and then changed it to Ken, and then changed it to Hibbard as I was typing it out. Its a tough call, but to be honest I am not too sure Hibbard is certain of a bench spot even any more.

'Shocked, Wales are likely to use three tighheads in their squad for the RWC. That will be Samson (if fit), Rhodri Jones (on a dual contract therefore will go), and Aaron Jarvis. and at loosehead we will take three players Gethin Jenkins, Rob Evans, and Paul James, who will all be playing in Wales next season.

Gill and Francis were not named in the main squad and were called up to cover injuries. Francis couldn't even get on the bench, and the talk is that Gatland was far from impressed with his lack of fitness.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:SS,

I would say now that Baldwin is 1st choice he had a great 6 Nations that aside agree.

I actually put Baldwin down as first choice, and then changed it to Ken, and then changed it to Hibbard as I was typing it out.  Its a tough call, but to be honest I am not too sure Hibbard is certain of a bench spot even any more.

SS,

Again I would agree with that, I think Owens is our best all round and complete hooker but Baldwin really stepped up to the plate this year. As for Gill the I think he strengthened the scrum when he came on and I have always been impressed by him plus like James and Jenkins hes another who can play T/Head in emergency

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Francis couldn't even get on the bench, and the talk is that Gatland was far from impressed with his lack of fitness.

He was poor against us this weekend. Taken to the cleaners in the scrums and invisible in the loose.

LondonTiger wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Francis couldn't even get on the bench, and the talk is that Gatland was far from impressed with his lack of fitness.

He was poor against us this weekend. Taken to the cleaners in the scrums and invisible in the loose.

I wouldn't be surprised if he does get capped during the warm up matches, not because he is the best option we have, but because Gatland likes to cap players to avoid the risk of others using them (he said that was why he capped Prydie, North and Cuthbert early in their careers).

The only Welsh player we have is Warren Fury and you can have him back...hes gash!

Chiefy is only expressing his own as usual passionate opinion. He is, in common with the other Welsh Regions, frustrated that the WRU has been and will continue to channel extra funds towards paying off the Stadium Debt, over and above the required rate of repayment. This has resulted in the Welsh Regions being the most poorly funded in the European game and consequently having to release stars they have developed to better funded sides.

The new European competition is designed to channel more of the competition money to the already richer English and French sides at the expense of the poorer Celtic sides.

Like I said earlier though now its happening to them they don't like it. The teams didn't worry in the amateur days when they were doing exactly the same thing, least these days it's all above board.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Francis couldn't even get on the bench, and the talk is that Gatland was far from impressed with his lack of fitness.

He was poor against us this weekend. Taken to the cleaners in the scrums and invisible in the loose.

I wouldn't be surprised if he does get capped during the warm up matches, not because he is the best option we have, but because Gatland likes to cap players to avoid the risk of others using them (he said that was why he capped Prydie, North and Cuthbert early in their careers).

That's why I thought he would have been capped agains Italy, though how Prydie could have been capped by anyone else I not know?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Francis couldn't even get on the bench, and the talk is that Gatland was far from impressed with his lack of fitness.

He was poor against us this weekend. Taken to the cleaners in the scrums and invisible in the loose.

I wouldn't be surprised if he does get capped during the warm up matches, not because he is the best option we have, but because Gatland likes to cap players to avoid the risk of others using them (he said that was why he capped Prydie, North and Cuthbert early in their careers).

That's why I thought he would have been capped agains Italy, though how Prydie could have been capped by anyone else I not know?

I believe he is, well was, English qualified (most likely a grandparent or something). There was no likelihood of him being selected by anyone else at time, but who knows what may have happened if he had turned out regularly at the Ospreys as a kid.

Ah ok, didn't realise that. Knew he's born and bred in Porthcawl and played all his rugby in Wales.

To be honest Prydie is one of those players who has been pretty shafted by being thrown in too early. I think if he was given time to 'earn' his place he may well be competing for the wing/fullback slot with 1/2p and Sanj.

Forgot Prydie had a stint with Wasps to but yeah it certainly didn't work for him like it did for North.

He had a good season for us thus year and at 23 still has more than enough time to continue his Welsh carear. He's been involved with a few squads and think Gatland still has him on the radre so to speak.

I know I may be unpopular in saying this, but I would rate him a more complete winger than Cuthbert, and probably a safer option internationally than Amos. But sadly unless our hand is force through injuries I can't see him getting an international recall anytime soon.

Yeah he has more strings to his bow than Cuthbert but Amos has moved on passed him IMO. Amos has been in great form this year but Prydie does have a very reliable and long range boot on him.

LondonTiger wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Francis couldn't even get on the bench, and the talk is that Gatland was far from impressed with his lack of fitness.

He was poor against us this weekend. Taken to the cleaners in the scrums and invisible in the loose.

I'd say he was both anonymous and invisible throughout ,- mostly because he was pulled out of the game through illness.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Francis couldn't even get on the bench, and the talk is that Gatland was far from impressed with his lack of fitness.

He was poor against us this weekend. Taken to the cleaners in the scrums and invisible in the loose.

I'd say he was both anonymous and invisible throughout ,- mostly because he was pulled out of the game through illness.