Did Liston's fate determine Ali's

Just been reading through the "Phantom Punch" thread and all the talk of Liston quitting as opposed to being genuinely KO'd got me thinking.

Did Ali go on too long, take too many punches, refuse to quit becuase he saw what happened to Liston?

After THAT fight, Liston was vilified for his perceived quitting/throwing of the rematch with Ali. To this day conspiracy theories abound re mob connections etc etc. Now, ignoring the reasons for Liston's capitulation and focusing solely on the aftermath, I wonder if the young Muhammed Ali was so affected by the hostility Sonny received, he made a decision he would never put himself in a position to be treated like that or have his heart questioned.

Did one of boxing's great controvesys have more of an effect on Ali than it seems?

something happened to him, he cannot even wipe his bum by himself these days!

Olefaithful wrote:something happened to him, he cannot even wipe his bum by himself these days!

And yet, judging by that response, it apears Ali is still in better nick that you!

unfortuntly you are correct.

Olefaithful wrote:unfortuntly you are correct.

For me or for you?

Don't know how such an interesting thread got such a dumb response, but anyway...

I alwasy think Liston is a greatly underrated champion. He had one off night decision loss early on (evenged) but apart from that he would've gone unbeaten for a loooong time had he not had the misfortune to cross paths with The Greatest in his prime. Yet, the public wouldn't take to him. Before he won the title people said he "wasn't a suitable champion" (luckily Floyd Patterson was too much of a gent for his own good) and after he became champ he still wouldn't get the good publicity he expected. I saw a documentary on him where it was said he practiced what he was going to say to the crowd awaiting him outside the plane when flying back from KO'ing Patterson. Then when he went outside there was nobody there to greet him.

By the end of Ali's career it was the opposite, he was the man, one of the most famous in the world. I think it was more a deep-rooted will to win and self belief. Same as Holyfield today. That belief being a great help in their primes but a great hindrance when it came time to stop.

Not knowing when to quit seems to be the consensus of opinion for the reason many faded greats fight on. Perhaps there's an element of romanticism in thinking fighter's don't want to be viewed as anything but warriors and that "quitting isn't an option" for them but the truth is something altogether sadder I fear.

Thanks for the comments anyway

Could be that because Ali was boxing since he was just some kid from Louisville, until he was one of the most recognisable faces in the world he just didn't want to leave it behind. By the late 70's he'd been a boxer for the majority of his life and boxing had shaped everything he'd done since he was a kid, must be a hard thing to give up knowing you won't get the chance to do it again....

....just one more Main Event....

...just one more W...

What a pathetic thing to say by olefaithful..just not funny!!

No he was just a very competitive, proud man who wanted to win and loved fighting....

Shouldn't think the fact Liston was perceived to have quit...(Funny how someone caqn quit whilst still fighting...Watch the tape Walcott completely blew it!!!....) had any impact on Ali except the irritation of not finishing him off in style..

Interesting article I knew if I hung around long enough that the author had one in him...

I would say "probably not",Dave, I mean think of the guy who got up off the canvas against Frazier, he just didn't have any quit in him at all.
Concur with the comment comparing him to Holy..when the powers wane you see actual delusion instead.
Wouldn't it be fab to see a proper autobiography where he held forth about his feelings for Liston. I heard in the Hauer biography that he felt great sadness still for how Malcolm X was treated by the "brothers".I'd love to hear what he had to say against Sonny in depth.

andygf wrote:I would say "probably not",Dave, I mean think of the guy who got up off the canvas against Frazier, he just didn't have any quit in him at all.
Concur with the comment comparing him to Holy..when the powers wane you see actual delusion instead.
Wouldn't it be fab to see a proper autobiography where he held forth about his feelings for Liston. I heard in the Hauer biography that he felt great sadness still for how Malcolm X was treated by the "brothers".I'd love to hear what he had to say against Sonny in depth.

NOt just the borthers. He was also saddened at how he treated Malcolm after he left the NoI.

That was the impression I got also Az, although can't remember a direct quote. Come to think of it I saw something in "The Tao of Muhammad Ali", by Davey, and not the above-mentioned Hauser biog.Is this your source?