HEC dead

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/mobile/news/28786.php

At least until ERC and the IRB tell them they're ultra vires.

Interesting times.

justified, dinnae feckle - this is PRL at another of their media ploys. The French have said they won't do anything without the Celts AND the English - this is simply the clubs attempting to promote their agenda further by upping the ante

About time, at some point you have to say it is a joke of a qualification process and people are refusing to change. If anything I am excited about seeing what club competition is organised that doesn't include whiping boys and is far more competitive. Right through the tournament that is and not just in knockout time.

Ar*eholes

We've got a great competition. But the English and French are bringing it to the brink for a bigger slice of the pie. Like we're gonna have a European competition run by the PRL... for feic sake. How about not constantly undrmining the ERC at every turn and coming back to the negotiating table with some sensible compromises?

Refer to my original post IRB will wade in, refuse to sanction the new competition and leave PRL out on their own , again.

I nearly would rather have no HC next season and finish the season 2 months early. Then have a 6N same time as the 4N so we are ready for the WRC.

Also more money for the unions

I'm about to commit a hate crime.

It's ok, I've calmed down.

Notch wrote:We've got a great competition. But the English and French are bringing it to the brink for a bigger slice of the pie. Like we're gonna have a European competition run by the PRL... for feic sake. How about not constantly undrmining the ERC at every turn and coming back to the negotiating table with some sensible compromises?

Well as ERC are unwilling to compromise one iota and want to keep themselves on the gravy train taking backhanders for selling the rights for a pittance- and most of the pie that england and France want a bigger piece of is actually built by them.

there are two sides to every story.

bothe sides are self serving, selfish gits.

Your side.

AND

My side.

Tbh, if anyone is willing to break ranks and allow the PRL to have the sole responsibility of running European competitions- they are nuts.

What we have now is a system where each of the six main nations in European rugby are stakeholders in European competitions- the English and French want us to sign over sole rights to them and play as 'invited guests'. This is awful news for the game of rugby.

Notch wrote:Tbh, if anyone is willing to break ranks and allow the PRL to have the sole responsibility of running European competitions- they are nuts.

What we have now is a system where each of the six main nations in European rugby are stakeholders in European competitions- the English and French want us to sign over sole rights to them and play as 'invited guests'. This is awful news for the game of rugby.

haven't been following the latest twists and turn in this mess, but where do you get the idea of the PRL wanting to have sole responsibility of running European comps from?

Any inks etc?

I can see the PRL ending up out on their ear here. They are still at the stage of a lot of big talk and posturing about a new competition with them and the French clubs (the same stage they've been at for some significant time now). Despite the French saying they will only do a new competition with everyone on board.

With regard to the Celts, I don't think they are going to give into the the PRL's coercion and attempts to do deals behind everyone elses back. I think its either the HC as it stands or no competition to replace it at all. In which case we can all just concentrate on our own leagues, might not be a bad thing for the Rabo.

See my initial post and link.

nathan wrote:

Notch wrote:Tbh, if anyone is willing to break ranks and allow the PRL to have the sole responsibility of running European competitions- they are nuts.

What we have now is a system where each of the six main nations in European rugby are stakeholders in European competitions- the English and French want us to sign over sole rights to them and play as 'invited guests'. This is awful news for the game of rugby.

haven't been following the latest twists and turn in this mess, but where do you get the idea of the PRL wanting to have sole responsibility of running European comps from?

Any inks etc?

They want more money.


Btw theres a meeting being held tomorrow from what I read. So the statements might be them having one last go to try and put the pressure on the rabo unions.

It's true, if their attitude is it's this or nothing- as a rugby fan, I hope we go for nothing. We may lose some of our better players to France (much more likely than England) and it may impact our provinces financially but my God I'm sick of these English robber barons trying to hold everyone to ransom every few years.

justified sinner wrote:See my initial post and link.

it doesnt say anything about the PRL wanting to run it though?

nathan wrote:

justified sinner wrote:See my initial post and link.

it doesnt say anything about the PRL wanting to run it though?

Yes....it does.

"the clubs have now asked Premiership Rugby to take immediate action to put in place a competition for 2014/15 to include the French and English clubs but which will also be open to teams from other countries.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

nathan wrote:

justified sinner wrote:See my initial post and link.

it doesnt say anything about the PRL wanting to run it though?

Yes....it does.

"the clubs have now asked Premiership Rugby to take immediate action to put in place a competition for 2014/15 to include the French and English clubs but which will also be open to teams from other countries.

That says that the clubs have asked the PRL, that's different to the PRL wanting to do it.

I hope the Celtic unions don't give in to this ridiculous English-French competition idea

Take it to the IRB, and force the PRL back to the table by denying them a new competition with the BT coverage.

The seperation of English club rugby from the English union appears to be coming back to bite all of European rugby in the arse.

wales606 wrote:I hope the Celtic unions don't give in to this ridiculous English-French competition idea

Take it to the IRB, and force the PRL back to the table by denying them a new competition with the BT coverage.

The seperation of English club rugby from the English union appears to be coming back to bite all of European rugby in the arse.

Why would the IRB deny them the new competition though?

nathan wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

nathan wrote:

justified sinner wrote:See my initial post and link.

it doesnt say anything about the PRL wanting to run it though?

Yes....it does.

"the clubs have now asked Premiership Rugby to take immediate action to put in place a competition for 2014/15 to include the French and English clubs but which will also be open to teams from other countries.

That says that the clubs have asked the PRL, that's different to the PRL wanting to do it.

PRL wouldn't have put it out as a press release if they didn't at least want to use it as fairly unsubtle leverage.

Notch wrote:

nathan wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

nathan wrote:

justified sinner wrote:See my initial post and link.

it doesnt say anything about the PRL wanting to run it though?

Yes....it does.

"the clubs have now asked Premiership Rugby to take immediate action to put in place a competition for 2014/15 to include the French and English clubs but which will also be open to teams from other countries.

That says that the clubs have asked the PRL, that's different to the PRL wanting to do it.

PRL wouldn't have put it out as a press release if they didn't at least want to use it as fairly unsubtle leverage.

They may agree with it, but still it wasn't them that asked for it. it was the clubs.

nathan wrote:

wales606 wrote:I hope the Celtic unions don't give in to this ridiculous English-French competition idea

Take it to the IRB, and force the PRL back to the table by denying them a new competition with the BT coverage.

The seperation of English club rugby from the English union appears to be coming back to bite all of European rugby in the arse.

Why would the IRB deny them the new competition though?

The IRB is run by the unions, not the clubs

The WRU, IFRU, SRU and Italian Union are all going to be opposed if this is going to either decrease the funding to the individual celtic teams involved, or more likely decrease the total amount going to union clubs (by decreasing their representation in the new competition)

The RFU hasn't exactly been approving of the PRL's power games recently either and I don't have a clue how the french union with think about this.

There could well be enough votes to scrap this idea and force the clubs to come to an agreement with the unions as to a new competition, or continuation of the HC.

nathan wrote:

wales606 wrote:I hope the Celtic unions don't give in to this ridiculous English-French competition idea

Take it to the IRB, and force the PRL back to the table by denying them a new competition with the BT coverage.

The seperation of English club rugby from the English union appears to be coming back to bite all of European rugby in the arse.

Why would the IRB deny them the new competition though?

IRB are guardians of the game globally and provincial NH fights about who should make the most money at the cost of growingthe game will not play well.l

Terrible that anyone can apply to sign up.

I'm gripped with this power struggle (always have been) and which side will win and with the final divvy of the slots.

But it shows that the Franglos meant what they said.

And now I'll read the press release...  

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Terrible that anyone can apply to sign up.

I'm gripped with this power struggle (always have been) and which side will win and with the final divvy of the slots.

But it shows that the Franglos meant what they said.

And now I'll read the press release...  

If the French meant what they said there will be no competition involving French and English clubs to replace the HC.

There's reports in France of a very similar statement by the French clubs
 
http://www.francetvsport.fr/imbroglio-autour-de-la-coupe-d-europe-179229
 
Using Google Translate:
 
"The French rugby clubs will participate in European competitions next season if the English clubs will also take part, said Tuesday the National Rugby League. This position of the French Top 14 clubs comes as the Agreement on the organization of European Cups, which governed these competitions since 2007, expires at the end of the current 2013/2014 season, and no formula This replacement is not in sight."Despite numerous meetings between all the countries over the past year, the NRL and the clubs in the Top 14 can only see the failure of negotiations on the development of a new agreement. Consequently, given the gravity and urgency of the situation, the clubs would like to remind that only participate in competitions also involving English clubs, "adéclaré League.
 
French clubs go even further by asking the NRL "to take steps to implement a competition for the season 2014/2015, necessarily involving English clubs and French clubs, and will be open to other nations."
 
Discussions stalled over the competition and makes questions of television rights. They include blocked since December 12 due to a contract that the English league announced it had signed with British Telecom for the dissemination of European matches of English clubs from 2014-15. ERC European Cup organizer considers this contract "illegal" because according to its regulations, it is the sole authority to negotiate broadcast rights body. The ERC has already extended his contract with Sky until 2018.
 
The French and English clubs, sports and economic heavyweights of European rugby, also require an overhaul of competition, based on a system of homogeneous qualification resulting in a reduction from 24 to 20 the number of teams in the Cup of Europe. The Celts (Irish, Scottish, Welsh) and Italians evolving Celtic League aggrieved by these proposals and see a willingness to weaken."
 

So, both the English and French clubs have asked their umbrella body to organise an Anglo-French competition that is also open to other nations, and they've done this on the eve of the latest scheduled stakeholder meeting.
 
There'll be some scurrying in the corridors of Dublin tonight.

What would the 4 rabo unions make if they had a 4 nations before the six nations. Isn't it something like a million a game. Sell it to sky. Also we would be ready for the 6N aswell.

Does the union have to sanction their clubs playing clubs from outside the union. If so will the french have a civil war. We see this year that the union has made the clubs reorganise games so they can have an international break.

I am glad the French have also issued a statement so the nonsense saying French clubs will only participate in competitions with representation from all countries. If people are unwilling to compromise then there has to be the threat of change, and as I have stated it is about time.

Looks like no agreement will ever be made. Money is destroying rugby just like it did with soccer.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Looks like no agreement will ever be made. Money is destroying rugby just like it did with soccer.

unfortunately, at the end of the day it's entertainment. Done for profits. Money was always going to play a big part in it.

So this is the final showdown. And about six months too late.

Remind me, who will blink first?

The small businessman has nowhere to go when confronting the bank manager unless he can find a friendlier one down the street.

One of the detestable facets of corporate life is that money and money alone shouts louder than plaintive moral protest.

I still say a pox on them all for their non-sporting attitudes and their glass ceilings.

Student-A1 wrote:I am glad the French have also issued a statement so the nonsense saying French clubs will only participate in competitions with representation from all countries. If people are unwilling to compromise then there has to be the threat of change, and as I have stated it is about time.

The 'threat of change' has been there since the negotiations started. PRL threatening to spit the dummy out...again. How does the statement, if it's in fact genuine, from the French make a nonsense of the claim that they will only participate in a competition which is representative of all 6 Nations? It doesn't. What if the Celtic nations make plain that they are not interested?
We can't know how this is going to be eventually resolved, but I do hope that the Celtic nations hold firm, and resist any pressure from PRL. Stuff em

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Looks like no agreement will ever be made. Money is destroying rugby just like it did with soccer.

Professionalism destroyed rugby, LF4L. Money is just a medium of exchange. Greed is the driver.

Brendan wrote:What would the 4 rabo unions make if they had a 4 nations before the six nations.  Isn't it something like a million a game.  Sell it to sky.  Also we would be ready for the 6N aswell.

Plenty of options available. I'm sure more international matches will be one possibility.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Looks like no agreement will ever be made. Money is destroying rugby just like it did with soccer.

Professionalism destroyed rugby, LF4L. Money is just a medium of exchange. Greed is the driver.

It would be very hard to disagree with that I'm afraid. If you even look at the way the games played now its so much different. Referees blowing every 5 seconds for penaltys (the top 14 is a complete joke for this sort of stuff) and then when a ref like Pollock trys to let the game flow he gets abused by every rugby fan out there.

Munchkin wrote:

Student-A1 wrote:I am glad the French have also issued a statement so the nonsense saying French clubs will only participate in competitions with representation from all countries. If people are unwilling to compromise then there has to be the threat of change, and as I have stated it is about time.

The 'threat of change' has been there since the negotiations started. PRL threatening to spit the dummy out...again. How does the statement, if it's in fact genuine, from the French make a nonsense of the claim that they will only participate in a competition which is representative of all 6 Nations? It doesn't. What if the Celtic nations make plain that they are not interested?
We can't know how this is going to be eventually resolved, but I do hope that the Celtic nations hold firm, and resist any pressure from PRL. Stuff em

I agree, whatever happens I don't want to see the Celts and Italians joining any new competition. Its the HC or nothing, if the English and French start the own competition....and I'm doubtful thats what the French are going to do, then leave them to it and watch their international game go the same way as English international football or French international rugby (already) as their gluttony for more money destroys their game.

nathan wrote:

Notch wrote:

nathan wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

nathan wrote:

justified sinner wrote:See my initial post and link.

it doesnt say anything about the PRL wanting to run it though?

Yes....it does.

"the clubs have now asked Premiership Rugby to take immediate action to put in place a competition for 2014/15 to include the French and English clubs but which will also be open to teams from other countries.

That says that the clubs have asked the PRL, that's different to the PRL wanting to do it.

PRL wouldn't have put it out as a press release if they didn't at least want to use it as fairly unsubtle leverage.

They may agree with it, but still it wasn't them that asked for it. it was the clubs.

So it wasn't the PRL, it was the clubs?  But the PRL are those same clubs, so did the people in the room sit down at a table and say we're the clubs and we want you to do this and then those same people got up, walked around the other side of the table, sat down and said 'okay'.

This is PRL/clubs looking to take control of the negotiations from the RFU.


Left field option, the RFU could always nominate championship sides to represent England in a future european competition.  Promotes rugby outside of the traditional heartland areas in England. They could even end promotion into the Jeff so no sides could get relegated to play in europe.  BT would scour their PRL contract to see how much they have to pay for solely Jeff games with no european matches.  Players would have to consider playing in the Jeff or moving to the championship or abroad to get european fixtures.  It would definitely make things interesting.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

nathan wrote:

Notch wrote:

nathan wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

nathan wrote:

justified sinner wrote:See my initial post and link.

it doesnt say anything about the PRL wanting to run it though?

Yes....it does.

"the clubs have now asked Premiership Rugby to take immediate action to put in place a competition for 2014/15 to include the French and English clubs but which will also be open to teams from other countries.

That says that the clubs have asked the PRL, that's different to the PRL wanting to do it.

PRL wouldn't have put it out as a press release if they didn't at least want to use it as fairly unsubtle leverage.

They may agree with it, but still it wasn't them that asked for it. it was the clubs.

So it wasn't the PRL, it was the clubs?  But the PRL are those same clubs, so did the people in the room sit down at a table and say we're the clubs and we want you to do this and then those same people got up, walked around the other side of the table, sat down and said 'okay'.

This is PRL/clubs looking to take control of the negotiations from the RFU.

Exactly right, which is why a few months back the RFU expressed concern at the PRL's actions. I also agree regard Nathan's comments that it was the clubs not the PRL.....but the PRL are the English clubs...  

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:So this is the final showdown. And about six months too late.

Remind me, who will blink first?

The small businessman has nowhere to go when confronting the bank manager unless he can find a friendlier one down the street.

One of the detestable facets of corporate life is that money and money alone shouts louder than plaintive moral protest.

I still say a pox on them all for their non-sporting attitudes and their glass ceilings.

I agree with your last line PC, but I don't agree with your first.  The final showdown will be in about 11 months time when the fixture lists have to been agreed and set in stone.  Everything for the last 3 years and the next 10 months is just c0ck posturing.

Frace TV [reported] wrote:Les clubs français vont même plus loin en demandant à la LNR "de prendre les mesures pour mettre en oeuvre une compétition pour la saison 2014/2015, réunissant nécessairement les clubs anglais et les clubs français, et qui sera ouverte aux autres nations"

Interestingly that doesn't explicitly exclude European nations...

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Frace TV [reported] wrote:Les clubs français vont même plus loin en demandant à la LNR "de prendre les mesures pour mettre en oeuvre une compétition pour la saison 2014/2015, réunissant nécessairement les clubs anglais et les clubs français, et qui sera ouverte aux autres nations"

Interestingly that doesn't explicitly exclude European nations...

I imagine there may have been some interesting discussions over the prawn sandwiches at PRL's recent World Club 7's, specifically with the Russians, Americans and Argentinians.

If things start turning spitefull between the nations in this it could escolate into the international game, lets not forget, the six nations is purely invitational and we all know what happened when the English RFU wanted to sell all their six nations games to sky and keep all the money and have a bigger slice of the pie back then, they were told they would not be invited and they threatened to start a new tournament with the tri nations sides, and we all know how that went don't we. 

What European Rugby needs is to broaden its horizons. Rugby is definitely growing and improving in Italy... it needs promoted more in other non 6N countries. Narrowing it to England/France just for the greed of the clubs is ridiculous

LordDowlais wrote:If things start turning spitefull between the nations in this it could escolate into the international game, lets not forget, the six nations is purely invitational and we all know what happened when the English RFU  wanted to sell all their six nations games to sky and keep all the money and have a bigger slice of the pie back then, they were told they would not be invited and they threatened to start a new tournament with the tri nations sides, and we all know how that went don't we. 

It already has turned spiteful in this game of Call My Bluff, LD.
Unfortunately the true/bluff card showing whether the Franglos were threatening a schism was "true".

It's now time for the Celts/Italians to decide whether or not to capitulate and join in - or not.

Ooh yes, let's only have competitions that espouse fine sporting values like giving one third of the teams half of the income and a structural advantage in qualifying (and therefore winning) the competition.

The pot and the kettle are both black. Refusing to negotiate does not confer the moral high ground on the Rabo unions.

They have at every stage had opportunities to talk about a competition that meets everyone's needs better, and they've refused. I am glad their bluff has been called and utterly sick of the fact that some of my fellow posters can't see anything wrong in the Rabo position or any justification in the French and English one.

Let's see whether a second Rabo competition is a bigger draw than an Anglo French club cup. I know where my bet would be. But I don't think it will come to that.

Nice to see the Clubs vs Unions argument is still motoring on with levels of pointless vitriol coming out.

The HEC won't be here next year because the Rabo nations refuse to give a toss about the clubs and a European competition with multiple levels of coherent competition. The clubs are in command of the cash and are taking their ball and going home in a childish display of power over the Unions arrogance in refusal to.negotiate.

Toml the Anglo French suggestion included a third tier for developing nations. The Rabo Unions refused to help fund this third tier because it would involve not selling the European rights on the cheap to their pals or it would cost them money and if nothing else the ERC is a self serving old boys club.

Some bitter people on here.
There are huge flaws to the current system and to have the blinkered view that it is perfect and we should leave it as it is is just silly.
Every year there is one or two groups where 2 teams qualify as the others in the group are there not because to earned their place via qualification but because they were given it as a good will gesture. I fail to see how anyone can argue that an equal number of teams from all individual leagues that participate is both fair and just.
The money being distributed evenly between the 3 participating leagues again seems a no brainer. As of yet I have not seen the ERC or the Rabo league propose any other compromise deal, just leave it as it is. If I am wrong then I withdraw that last comment and look forward to being enlightened.

[/quote]I agree, whatever happens I don't want to see the Celts and Italians joining any new competition.  Its the HC or nothing, if the English and French start the own competition....and I'm doubtful thats what the French are going to do, then leave them to it and watch their international game go the same way as English international football or French international rugby (already) as their gluttony for more money destroys their game.[/quote]
The French appear to be saying that they want a fully inclusive competition represented by all 6 nations. They also seem to be enforcing their view that they do not want to participate in a competition which does not include the PRL clubs. The latter perhaps misinterpreted by some as meaning that they are pushing for a T14/PRL competition. This isn't the case according to the article printed in 'lequipe'.

Student-A1 wrote:Some bitter people on here.
There are huge flaws to the current system and to have the blinkered view that it is perfect and we should leave it as it is is just silly.
Every year there is one or two groups where 2 teams qualify as the others in the group are there not because to earned their place via qualification but because they were given it as a good will gesture. I fail to see how anyone can argue that an equal number of teams from all individual leagues that participate is both fair and just.
The money being distributed evenly between the 3 participating leagues again seems a no brainer. As of yet I have not seen the ERC or the Rabo league propose any other compromise deal, just leave it as it is. If I am wrong then I withdraw that last comment and look forward to being enlightened.

If I recall correctly, last autumn ERC proposed a 32 team competition as an alternative, but the presentation excluded PRL, in an apparent attempt to split the Franglo axis of evil. The proposal was rejected and has not seen the light of day since.