Welsh Flyhalf options

I think its worth a debate, who are the leading candidates for the 10 shirt in Wales?

1. Dan Biggar
Deservedly the owner of the jersey, started all the 6 Nations games last season and didnt put a foot wrong aside from a shaky first half performance against Ireland.

2. James Hook
Getting more regular game time at Perpignan, but has signed another 4 year deal there, signifying his lack of intent to return to Wales? I think he should still be included in the squad for his versatility and experience.

3. Rhys Priestland
Starting to get more game time at the Scarlets after a lengthy injury, will he recover his confidence and form of 2011? Personally I think he has to do a lot to regain the position from Biggar.

4. Owen Williams
Promising young flyhalf who made the unprecedented move to the Tigers, put in some good performances for the Scarlets last season.

5. Rhys Patchell
Another promising player, usually stands out for the Blues and not because of his hair. Great pace and accurate kicking to touch. One of those players you can rely on to get you playing in the right areas of the field.

6. Jason Tovey
Couldn't nail a starting position at 10 for the Blues due to the emergence of Patchell and injury, always seemed a decent club player, but also seems a bit too fragile for international rugby

7. Steve Shingler
Don't know a huge amount about this kid having spent a few seasons with London Irish, currently playing 12 for the Scarlets, is his future at 10?

Are these placed in any particular order?

Not really, I think a few players are on equal ground.

The numbers before the names aren't some sort of ranking then.

Going by what I have seen of them recently (and the positions they have been playing in / game time) I think that Biggar will be fist choice, with both Priestland and Patchell in the full training squad. Most likely Priestland on the bench as he can cover both fly half and fullback off the bench.

It's Biggar's shirt. Tovey can't defend particulary well, I think a Test match MAY be too brutal for him.

Its different scrum half options I'd like to see, Brynmoor Jnr is not the answer.

Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

It would appear that, subject to a green light from the shrink - Priestland is the chosen one.

munkian wrote:It's Biggar's shirt. Tovey can't defend particulary well, I think a Test match MAY be too brutal for him.

Its different scrum half options I'd like to see, Brynmoor Jnr is not the answer.

Could make an entire thread on scrum halves, I think they're all there or thereabouts after Mike Phillips. Gareth Davies being the one showing the most potential so far this season.

For me the pecking order should be:
1.Biggar
2.Priestland
3.Patchell
4.Hook

Biggar is a no frills OH with an excellent all round game and a very composed player for his age.

Priestland is probably the most talented but too prone to the yips.

IronMike wrote:

munkian wrote:It's Biggar's shirt. Tovey can't defend particulary well, I think a Test match MAY be too brutal for him.

Its different scrum half options I'd like to see, Brynmoor Jnr is not the answer.

Could make an entire thread on scrum halves, I think they're all there or thereabouts after Mike Phillips. Gareth Davies being the one showing the most potential so far this season.

That said I have already heard some fans claiming that his first try against Treviso is a shining example of why our backline has failed to fire as, according to them, he looks for personal glory rather than firing the ball out to the rest of the backs.

Anyone know how Tav is going at Glaws? I still think that, providing he hasn't upset the Gats & Co. setup, he is the next long term scrum half for Wales. But realistically we have a fair few lads playing scrum half on a regular basis (Rees, Brynmor Jnr, G Davies, Knoyle, M Roberts, Phillips etc)

Casartelli wrote:Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

It would appear that, subject to a green light from the shrink - Priestland is the chosen one.

Why do you think Gatland Hates Hook? He hasn't discarded him from a Welsh squad despite injury in his entire tenure. He is the best bench backline option in the NH. 70 plus caps and more than proficient in several positions.

Priestland has to play better to earn Biggars shirt.

I dont know, never really been impressed with Knoyle at test level, its a shame when good players fail to recover form though, Webb looked the real deal a couple of seasons ago.

maestegmafia wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

It would appear that, subject to a green light from the shrink - Priestland is the chosen one.

Why do you think Gatland Hates Hook? He hasn't discarded him from a Welsh squad despite injury in his entire tenure. He is the best bench backline option in the NH. 70 plus caps and more than proficient in several positions.

Priestland has to play better to earn Biggars shirt.

Seems evident that Hook knows he wont feature as a starting player: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22416956

IronMike - I just think that Knoyle is the closed to a Phillips clone we have, in both attitude and style. So putting him in means that there is no need for a rejig in tactics. I know what you mean about it being a shame when lads look like world beaters at under 20s, and for the odd season as full pros, but then just lose all form, sadly we have had too many future legends that have just failed to make a mark on the international scene.

Considering the amount of young players that are progressing to the top level in certain positions in wales it will be no surprise that we are not so concerned to let players play a bit more regional rugby before selecting them for international honours.

Tavs might be being given a bit of time at Glaws to work on his game. He does need the time too, on form I think he is a great player but it wasn't working for him at Scarlets after his injury lay off.

maestegmafia wrote:Considering the amount of young players that are progressing to the top level in certain positions in wales it will be no surprise that we are not so concerned to let players play a bit more regional rugby before selecting them for international honours.

Tavs might be being given a bit of time at Glaws to work on his game. He does need the time too, on form I think he is a great player but it wasn't working for him at Scarlets after his injury lay off.

Not just the injury, but the international squad tackle bag holding too. Also there was talk of a bit of issues with attendance to training sessions.

RR seems to playing well for us, considering he's behind a retreating pack  

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Considering the amount of young players that are progressing to the top level in certain positions in wales it will be no surprise that we are not so concerned to let players play a bit more regional rugby before selecting them for international honours.

Tavs might be being given a bit of time at Glaws to work on his game. He does need the time too, on form I think he is a great player but it wasn't working for him at Scarlets after his injury lay off.

Not just the injury, but the international squad tackle bag holding too.  Also there was talk of a bit of issues with attendance to training sessions.

Hadn't heard that rumour.

But the competition is also immense too. So many good scrum halfs all close in ability. It should push their levels higher to try to get selected.

Casartelli wrote:Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

Was that intentional?

Also, very rare, a debate about the Welsh 10 that is level and sensible, and then develops into a discussion on 9 rather than continue with vitriol for 70 pages?

At both 9 and 10 we have a fair few options, scrum half especially, who simply haven't been tested internationally due to lack of exposure and Phillips' apparently guaranteed place in the side. Rhys Webb looked phenomenal, and was the heir apparent at half back playing alongside Biggar in the age grades. Broke his back didn't he? Seemed to recover sufficiently and had a great season 2011/12, but the Ospreys have signed Tito Tebaldi (sp?) who seems exceedingly average? That seems a very odd decision, you can understand when a youngster has the likes of Justin Marshall, Regan King, or Jerry Collins (gone are the days of the regions being able to afford such talent anyway) to learn from and understudy to, but clearly Webb is not deemed good enough by the Ospreys coaching team.

As mentioned above, there are a few who have slipped under the radar. Martin Roberts had one of the best deliveries I've seen, but didn't cut it at Northampton and is now playing for Bath, where an ageing Peter Stringer is starting. He wasn't in the match squad for the game against Leicester. He's 27 years old. Darren Allinson, former Scarlets academy and Blues 9, has being playing with London Irish for several years. Doesn't seem to be a serious Welsh option, but he's still 25 and has a lot of English Premiership experience for a 9 his age.

Richie Rees is an excellent player, but one who is no longer in the reckoning. Never really imposed himself internationally, but also never truly given a chance. Some Dragons fans were disappointed with his signing, and the young Evans not getting game time; Rees is a consummate league 9, very shrewd acquisition on the part of the Dragons.

Aled Davies got called up to Japan, but it's questionable whether he's even the second best 9 at the Scarlets. Rhodri Williams is a quality 9, but his time will come after the World Cup. Talking of the unfulfilled legends, really hope he isn't one of them, as he looks to have it all.

So it's realistically between Lloyd Williams, Tavis Knoyle, and maybe Gareth Davies, if he can keep his starting place and Gatland rewards his good form. Now is the time to have a serious look at two alternatives to Phillips.

I think the 'snubbing' of Biggar was a politcal decision. Couldn't have taken the Welsh 9/10 - imagine the wailing and knashing of teeth

miaow wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

Was that intentional?

I don't think it was anything to do with that, far more about who Andy Farrell wanted... So if you said Farrell wasn't a fan of Hook it would make sense, but Gatland? THat makes no sense at all, he always picks Hook and has stated numerous times what a great player he thinks he is..

miaow wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

Was that intentional?

Knowing Cas it was a very very lucky coincendence, and was meant to read "when selecting welsh and British & Irish Lions", honest cough cough.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

miaow wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

Was that intentional?

Knowing Cas it was a very very lucky coincendence, and was meant to read "when selecting welsh and British & Irish Lions", honest cough cough.

I was being subtle.

But, for the slow learners - not taking Biggar to Australia when he took every other first choice Welsh player was arguably the biggest slap in the face delivered by Gatland during his 'tenure' (as Maes would say). You'd think he'd at least given him a bit part role like he did for Tipuric. He even managed to include Shane Williams!!!

Gatland just hates Hook, plain and simple - messed him around for years. The most talented Welsh player of the pro era - would be the best 10 in world rugby now, with Carter on the wane.

Casartelli wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

miaow wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

Was that intentional?

Knowing Cas it was a very very lucky coincendence, and was meant to read "when selecting welsh and British & Irish Lions", honest cough cough.

I was being subtle.  

But, for the slow learners - not taking Biggar to Australia when he took every other first choice Welsh player was arguably the biggest slap in the face delivered by Gatland during his 'tenure' (as Maes would say).  You'd think he'd at least given him a bit part role like he did for Tipuric.  He even managed to include Shane Williams!!!

Gatland just hates Hook, plain and simple - messed him around for years.  The most talented Welsh player of the pro era - would be the best 10 in world rugby now, with Carter on the wane.

You really think Hook would have been the best 10 in the world? I'm not so sure, I think he would have been decent but not in the top 5.

I don't think it's a particularly strong position globally, There aren't many currently playing who, after Carter, are destined to go down as truly great. So he could have been.

The problem with Hook is he used to try too hard to make something happen, and would put his team in a bad situation, or be too selfish and ruining try scoring opportunities.

GunsGerms wrote:For me the pecking order should be:
1.Biggar
2.Priestland
3.Patchell
4.Hook

Biggar is a no frills OH with an excellent all round game and a very composed player for his age.

Priestland is probably the most talented but too prone to the yips.

Guns,

That would be my order at the moment but if Priestland could discover 2011 form then I would swao them around.

IronMike wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

miaow wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

Was that intentional?

Knowing Cas it was a very very lucky coincendence, and was meant to read "when selecting welsh and British & Irish Lions", honest cough cough.

I was being subtle.  

But, for the slow learners - not taking Biggar to Australia when he took every other first choice Welsh player was arguably the biggest slap in the face delivered by Gatland during his 'tenure' (as Maes would say).  You'd think he'd at least given him a bit part role like he did for Tipuric.  He even managed to include Shane Williams!!!

Gatland just hates Hook, plain and simple - messed him around for years.  The most talented Welsh player of the pro era - would be the best 10 in world rugby now, with Carter on the wane.

You really think Hook would have been the best 10 in the world? I'm not so sure, I think he would have been decent but not in the top 5.

We'll never know now. But the performances he gave at outside half early in his career suggested he would become a genuine great 10. Of course he made some mistakes, but nothing on the scale of, say, Priestland's car-crash viewing loss of form (class is permanent, as we know).

But, Gatland thought he could get more value for money by playing a decent 10 (Stephen Jones) with Hook gifted enough to slot in elsewhere. And that was that. If he'd been given anything like the run of games that Jones (it took him 7 years to become world class!), Priestland and Biggar had, nobody would have been moaning about 'game management' (a phrase Scott Gibbs confirmed was a load of b*ll**ks) as Hook would have quickly developed the experience to go with his talent.

Fast, strong, kicks the ball a mile, brilliant broken field runner. Had it all.

Hook is probably a bigger waste of talent than Henson.

It a troubled postion for us Welsh - look at Barry John, quit early and now props up bars in Cardiff getting free pints from the odd person that remembers him.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:For me the pecking order should be:
1.Biggar
2.Priestland
3.Patchell
4.Hook

Biggar is a no frills OH with an excellent all round game and a very composed player for his age.

Priestland is probably the most talented but too prone to the yips.

Guns,

That would be my order at the moment but if Priestland could discover 2011 form then I would swao them around.  

But i would have Hook as the replacement for any of those three guys above him every time. He covers flyhalf, both centres and fullback and has started and played well in all those positions.

maestegmafia wrote:
 
But i would have Hook as the replacement for any of those three guys above him every time. He covers flyhalf, both centres and fullback and has started and played well in all those positions.

Possibly but if Biggar was injured for example I wouldnt promote Hook from the bench I'd probably have Priestland leapfrog him into the starting 15.

munkian wrote:Hook is probably a bigger waste of talent than Henson.

It a troubled postion for us Welsh - look at Barry John, quit early and now props up bars in Cardiff getting free pints from the odd person that remembers him.

Agreed - can't even compare Henson with Hook. Wales quickly found a far superior replacement for Henson in Jamie Roberts. Hook is a once in a generation talent.

I had to turn the Barry John documentary off about 10 mins in. Upsetting.

Casartelli wrote: ..........'game management' (a phrase Scott Gibbs confirmed was a load of b*ll**ks)

Agree with Gibbs on that.

Casartelli wrote:
Gatland just hates Hook, plain and simple

Really...!

"We've got a great opportunity of performing well and hopefully beating South Africa at home, so you don't turn down the opportunity of a world-class player like James Hook at your disposal," Gatland said.


"Going up against the South Africans you want creativity," Gatland said.
"By having one of them (referring to Hook and Shane Williams) at least it does give us that footwork, that little bit of magic that is going to be special."

Gatland says "Hook has world-class potential"

Gatland says if Hook can improve in those areas he will be ranked alongside All Black Dan Carter as truly world class.

"As a 10 I think James will get even better. He is a player with an enormous amount of potential and skill," said Gatland.

Gatland said "The fact he kicked his goals was as important as anything. If Wales had kicked their goals against Fiji at the World Cup they would have made the quarter-finals.

Wales coach Gatland says "I thought the skill he showed to create the try for Lee Byrne - the footwork, the sleight of hand - was quite sensational."

As an Ospreys fan i would say Shaun Holley didn't value Hook as a flyhalf, looks like Marc Delpoux agrees.

Hook has (again) failed to tie down the No10 jersey for Perpignan they are preferring a youngster there at mo with most of hooks games coming at XV.

Also it wasn't just Gatland that messed him about it started with the O's which meant that he didn't get regular game time at 10 which allowed Gatland to pick. The O's even considered him an option at No9 due to injury FFS

bedfordwelsh wrote:Hook has (again) failed to tie down the No10 jersey for Perpignan they are preferring a youngster there at mo with most of hooks games coming at XV.

Also it wasn't just Gatland that messed him about it started with the O's which meant that he didn't get regular game time at 10 which allowed Gatland to pick.  The O's even considered him an option at No9 due to injury FFS

It was Shaun Holley, Gatland picked Hook at 10 over Stephen Jones in Edinburgh 2011 Six Nations, even though Hook had not played at 10 for nine months previously.

Lee Bryne, James Hook, Shane Williams... when was this quoted 2009??

2 years ago Sean Fitzpatrick stated that Courtney Lawes was all set up to become the next Martin Johnson... not just for England but the world. Even a season is a long time in rugby.

Gatland is a percentages coach. Shane Williams was creative but a) he was on the wing and wan't involved in playmaking and b) he was never a liability either in defence or conservative rugby.
Hook is just a little unpredictable for Gatland and often his fellow players struggle to work on the same wavelength. Added to him gifting the occasional try/miss-pass/missed kick etc.

Lee Bryne, James Hook, Shane Williams... when was this quoted 2009??

2 years ago Sean Fitzpatrick stated that Courtney Lawes was all set up to become the next Martin Johnson... not just for England but the world. Even a season is a long time in rugby.

Gatland is a percentages coach. Shane Williams was creative but a) he was on the wing and wan't involved in playmaking and b) he was never a liability either in defence or conservative rugby.
Hook is just a little unpredictable for Gatland and often his fellow players struggle to work on the same wavelength. Added to him gifting the occasional try/miss-pass/missed kick etc.

Hook - if you put a compilation video together of all the good things he has done you would think he was an all time great. He does wonderful things. I can really understand why he can excite so much. Problem is that hides the fact that he doesnt always do wonderful things.

History repeats itself again in Perpignan with Hook relegated to super sub. If it keeps on happening is there a point when you think it isn't the coach/club it is the player?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Hook has (again) failed to tie down the No10 jersey for Perpignan they are preferring a youngster there at mo with most of hooks games coming at XV.

Also it wasn't just Gatland that messed him about it started with the O's which meant that he didn't get regular game time at 10 which allowed Gatland to pick.  The O's even considered him an option at No9 due to injury FFS

It's a very different situation now at Perpignan. Hook has given up his dreams of being Wales No.10 and has reverted to utility role in exchange for a big money, long term contract as he says he and his family are very happy out there.

I agree it was all Sean Holley's fault - but you can't blame him as he isn't a real coach. Gatland should've known better, given his credentials.

There are only three current viable candidates: Biggar and Priestland with Patchell an exciting prospect. Gatland will only use Hook as cover and as a utility replacement (rightly imo). Injuries not withstanding I expect Biggar and Priestland to compete on form with Patchell getting some squad experience.

[quote="Casartelli"]

munkian wrote:I had to turn the Barry John documentary off about 10 mins in.  Upsetting.

[quote="GunsGerms"]

Casartelli wrote: ..........'game management' (a phrase Scott Gibbs confirmed was a load of b*ll**ks)

Agree wholeheartedly with both those statements. There's little doubt that Hook had one hell of a rough ride from 2008 to 2011. The World Cup could have been his opportunity once Priestland was injured. Unfortunately, his kicking had been poor and continued to be, and he blew it. Shame that a player who seemingly had far more natural flair was given in return so little opportunity to prove himself.

fa0019 wrote:Lee Bryne, James Hook, Shane Williams... when was this quoted 2009??

I'd guess, with references to the Fiji QF loss and Hook putting Byrne in for a try at Twickenham, this is probably post-GS 2008?

lostinwales wrote:History repeats itself again in Perpignan with Hook relegated to super sub. If it keeps on happening is there a point when you think it isn't the coach/club it is the player?

Holley and the Ospreys have a lot to answer for. Any injury in the backline since has given coaches the easy option of just shifting Hook to fill the hole, be it 12, 13, or 15. He's a really poor 15 as he cannot tackle very well, and as the last line of defence is simply not Test level (Will Genia 2012, Frans Steyn 2011 WC). He was a decent 12 but with the increasing demand for 12s to be battering rams, his defence and susceptibility to running down blind alleyways when trying to force the game means he's not Test standard. He looked a quality 13 given the extra time and, invariably, space when the ball was moved to him in midfield. Because he was good in 2 positions and could kick the ball well, it gave coaches no moral scruple to simply wedge him into the team for the short term. We were talking about whether his 'versatility' would come damage his long term prospects of becoming a class 10. That was 4 years ago, and it's proved to be the case.

Hook's only real opportunity to take the 10 shirt was in the 6N 2011, when he was dreadful (Paris was a horrorshow, not solely of his making, but still horrific), and at the World Cup. Gatland seemingly hasn't forgiven him, and no longer views him as a 10, but as someone who will fill in when required; he is now the token utility back replacement.

A last word on Hook, as miaow's Paris 2011 example is such a good one.

In the season (and pre-season) building up to that game, Hook had started previous Wales games at; centre, full back, centre, centre, centre, full back, outside half, centre and outside half.

Perhaps not ideal preparation before facing a backrow of Dusautoir, Bonnaire and Harinordoquy at Stade de France?

It says a lot about him that he showed up at all. Other 10s may have been throwing up in buckets in Taibach RFC or dialing NHS Psychiatric Direct at the mere prospect.

Before people recite the 'couldn't control a game' line, they should look at Hook's test record and what he'd been asked to do as a player, in terms of covering different positions. Carter may have been able to do it - Wilkinson, Steyn, O'Gara etc etc, no chance.

Pure talent can only take you so far as a 10 in the modern game. You need years of experience (without being forever shunted around the backline) to hone the required skills and temperament.

Hook would have been a world great as an outside half, but he was never given the opportunity.

Casartelli wrote:A last word on Hook, as miaow's Paris 2011 example is such a good one.

In the season (and pre-season) building up to that game, Hook had started previous Wales games at; centre, full back, centre, centre, centre, full back, outside half, centre and outside half.

Perhaps not ideal preparation before facing a backrow of Dusautoir, Bonnaire and Harinordoquy at Stade de France?  

It says a lot about him that he showed up at all.  Other 10s may have been throwing up in buckets in Taibach RFC or dialing NHS Psychiatric Direct at the mere prospect.  

Before people recite the 'couldn't control a game' line, they should look at Hook's test record and what he'd been asked to do as a player, in terms of covering different positions.  Carter may have been able to do it - Wilkinson, Steyn, O'Gara etc etc, no chance.

Pure talent can only take you so far as a 10 in the modern game.  You need years of experience (without being forever shunted around the backline) to hone the required skills and temperament.

Hook would have been a world great as an outside half, but he was never given the opportunity.

I dont doubt your points, i agree with you. But no point dwelling on the past, what do you think is best done with him in regards to Wales for the future?

maestegmafia wrote:

Casartelli wrote:A last word on Hook, as miaow's Paris 2011 example is such a good one.

In the season (and pre-season) building up to that game, Hook had started previous Wales games at; centre, full back, centre, centre, centre, full back, outside half, centre and outside half.

Perhaps not ideal preparation before facing a backrow of Dusautoir, Bonnaire and Harinordoquy at Stade de France?  

It says a lot about him that he showed up at all.  Other 10s may have been throwing up in buckets in Taibach RFC or dialing NHS Psychiatric Direct at the mere prospect.  

Before people recite the 'couldn't control a game' line, they should look at Hook's test record and what he'd been asked to do as a player, in terms of covering different positions.  Carter may have been able to do it - Wilkinson, Steyn, O'Gara etc etc, no chance.

Pure talent can only take you so far as a 10 in the modern game.  You need years of experience (without being forever shunted around the backline) to hone the required skills and temperament.

Hook would have been a world great as an outside half, but he was never given the opportunity.

I dont doubt your points, i agree with you. But no point dwelling on the past, what do you think is best done with him in regards to Wales for the future?

From a Welsh perspective? Let him play out the next 4 years without the distraction of test rugby, learn from the experience and then fast track him into the coaching set up here.

From his point of view, maybe he'll decide that staying in Catalonia is more appealing for him and his family than Port Talbot. Good luck to him if he remains there and makes a good living from the game in France.

Casartelli wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Casartelli wrote:A last word on Hook, as miaow's Paris 2011 example is such a good one.

In the season (and pre-season) building up to that game, Hook had started previous Wales games at; centre, full back, centre, centre, centre, full back, outside half, centre and outside half.

Perhaps not ideal preparation before facing a backrow of Dusautoir, Bonnaire and Harinordoquy at Stade de France?  

It says a lot about him that he showed up at all.  Other 10s may have been throwing up in buckets in Taibach RFC or dialing NHS Psychiatric Direct at the mere prospect.  

Before people recite the 'couldn't control a game' line, they should look at Hook's test record and what he'd been asked to do as a player, in terms of covering different positions.  Carter may have been able to do it - Wilkinson, Steyn, O'Gara etc etc, no chance.

Pure talent can only take you so far as a 10 in the modern game.  You need years of experience (without being forever shunted around the backline) to hone the required skills and temperament.

Hook would have been a world great as an outside half, but he was never given the opportunity.

I dont doubt your points, i agree with you. But no point dwelling on the past, what do you think is best done with him in regards to Wales for the future?

From a Welsh perspective?  Let him play out the next 4 years without the distraction of test rugby, learn from the experience and then fast track him into the coaching set up here.

From his point of view, maybe he'll decide that staying in Catalonia is more appealing for him and his family than Port Talbot.  Good luck to him if he remains there and makes a good living from the game in France.

I don't think that benefits Wales at all?

I asked you what you thought "is best done with him in regards to Wales for the future?"

Maybe I can rephrase that as what should be done to utilise his abilities the best?

maestegmafia wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Casartelli wrote:A last word on Hook, as miaow's Paris 2011 example is such a good one.

In the season (and pre-season) building up to that game, Hook had started previous Wales games at; centre, full back, centre, centre, centre, full back, outside half, centre and outside half.

Perhaps not ideal preparation before facing a backrow of Dusautoir, Bonnaire and Harinordoquy at Stade de France?  

It says a lot about him that he showed up at all.  Other 10s may have been throwing up in buckets in Taibach RFC or dialing NHS Psychiatric Direct at the mere prospect.  

Before people recite the 'couldn't control a game' line, they should look at Hook's test record and what he'd been asked to do as a player, in terms of covering different positions.  Carter may have been able to do it - Wilkinson, Steyn, O'Gara etc etc, no chance.

Pure talent can only take you so far as a 10 in the modern game.  You need years of experience (without being forever shunted around the backline) to hone the required skills and temperament.

Hook would have been a world great as an outside half, but he was never given the opportunity.

I dont doubt your points, i agree with you. But no point dwelling on the past, what do you think is best done with him in regards to Wales for the future?

From a Welsh perspective?  Let him play out the next 4 years without the distraction of test rugby, learn from the experience and then fast track him into the coaching set up here.

From his point of view, maybe he'll decide that staying in Catalonia is more appealing for him and his family than Port Talbot.  Good luck to him if he remains there and makes a good living from the game in France.

I don't think that benefits Wales at all?

I asked you what you thought "is best done with him in regards to Wales for the future?"

Maybe I can rephrase that as what should be done to utilise his abilities the best?

You don't think he'd 'add value' to the coaching set up? 70+caps (across most of the backline!) - a few seasons experience in a brutally competitive league in France??? His first-hand knowledge would be a lot more immediate than that of Howley, McBride and Jinks...

You don't think he is the best option we have as a utility player on the bench?

maestegmafia wrote:You don't think he is the best option we have as a utility player on the bench?

He's a fairly hopeless full back. You need plenty of test matches at 15 to time the high ball catches, for example. Even Halfpenny can still be a bit shaky compared to someone like Rob Kearney.

He doesn't have the power or the head-on tackling ability for 12 nowadays and he lacks the all out straight line speed of a wing. Which leaves him as a potentially brilliant (but inexperienced in terms of starts) 10, or a half decent 13, who hasn't played there in years.

Even if he still is the best utility player, it isn't fair on him to ask him to do this any more. He's earned the right to cash in by concentrating on his club rugby in France.

Well these write-ups are very informative. It'll be a 3-way between Biggar, Priest and the third being one of Tovey or Patchell. As others have said, scum-half is more of a concern.