Welsh Flyhalf options

First topic message reminder :

I think its worth a debate, who are the leading candidates for the 10 shirt in Wales?

1. Dan Biggar
Deservedly the owner of the jersey, started all the 6 Nations games last season and didnt put a foot wrong aside from a shaky first half performance against Ireland.

2. James Hook
Getting more regular game time at Perpignan, but has signed another 4 year deal there, signifying his lack of intent to return to Wales? I think he should still be included in the squad for his versatility and experience.

3. Rhys Priestland
Starting to get more game time at the Scarlets after a lengthy injury, will he recover his confidence and form of 2011? Personally I think he has to do a lot to regain the position from Biggar.

4. Owen Williams
Promising young flyhalf who made the unprecedented move to the Tigers, put in some good performances for the Scarlets last season.

5. Rhys Patchell
Another promising player, usually stands out for the Blues and not because of his hair. Great pace and accurate kicking to touch. One of those players you can rely on to get you playing in the right areas of the field.

6. Jason Tovey
Couldn't nail a starting position at 10 for the Blues due to the emergence of Patchell and injury, always seemed a decent club player, but also seems a bit too fragile for international rugby

7. Steve Shingler
Don't know a huge amount about this kid having spent a few seasons with London Irish, currently playing 12 for the Scarlets, is his future at 10?

Scrum-half thread ?

welsh fly-half options: steve shingler, dan biggar, rhys patchell, rhys preistland, jordan williams, gavin henson, james hook, jason tovey, steffan jones, lewis robling, matthew morgan, sam davies, owen williams, nicky robinson, ceri sweeney, dai flanagan, jack maynard, ceirion thomas, josh lewis, dan evans, aled thomas, jamie murphy, james garland, diggy bird, gareth davies, nick macleod and others

 

Sweeney? Flanagan? Jeez what an idiot. This is what happens when you allow Skynet to contribute to the forum.

Casartelli wrote:

IronMike wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

miaow wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Gatland hates Hook and snubbed Biggar when selecting the Welsh & Irish Lions.

Was that intentional?

Knowing Cas it was a very very lucky coincendence, and was meant to read "when selecting welsh and British & Irish Lions", honest cough cough.

I was being subtle.  

But, for the slow learners - not taking Biggar to Australia when he took every other first choice Welsh player was arguably the biggest slap in the face delivered by Gatland during his 'tenure' (as Maes would say).  You'd think he'd at least given him a bit part role like he did for Tipuric.  He even managed to include Shane Williams!!!

Gatland just hates Hook, plain and simple - messed him around for years.  The most talented Welsh player of the pro era - would be the best 10 in world rugby now, with Carter on the wane.

You really think Hook would have been the best 10 in the world? I'm not so sure, I think he would have been decent but not in the top 5.

We'll never know now.  But the performances he gave at outside half early in his career suggested he would become a genuine great 10.  Of course he made some mistakes, but nothing on the scale of, say, Priestland's car-crash viewing loss of form (class is permanent, as we know).

But, Gatland thought he could get more value for money by playing a decent 10 (Stephen Jones) with Hook gifted enough to slot in elsewhere.  And that was that.  If he'd been given anything like the run of games that Jones (it took him 7 years to become world class!), Priestland and Biggar had, nobody would have been moaning about 'game management' (a phrase Scott Gibbs confirmed was a load of b*ll**ks) as Hook would have quickly developed the experience to go with his talent.

Fast, strong, kicks the ball a mile, brilliant broken field runner.  Had it all.

Absolute rubbish.... we have done this before. Hook had more games than Jones/Robinson/Sweeney combined in his first few seasons. Jones was French Player of the Season in his tenure in with an underperforming CA, whilst conversely Hook has been given his wish and had the 10 shirt every week for a multi-talented Perpignan and the result...... he will soon be 3rd choice 10 (behind a 24yr old and a 20yr old) and has played FB the last few games for them..... He has been shifted back following the summer arrival of France fly-half Camille Lopez

Hook was full-back in Perpignan's opening day 26-23 win against Castres and the 28-27 loss to Stade Francais

However he has was the supporters 2012/13 player of the season, took a new 4yr deal and recently made  captain for a match so not all bad for the French 10 15

We don't have the full story here, but I would guess that Hook's move to 15  and his new contract - which was probably under negotiation for months - are closely related.

One plausible scenario is that Gatland / Howley's success in last year's  6N means the Wales coaching team are going to be in place for the foreseeable future, which means no shot at 10 for Hook.

So his agent advises him to maximize his position at Perp.  He's been doing
a decent job  for them at 10 and as FHF points out is well liked by the fans. Could he be a future captain, then move into coaching? Perhaps.

I don't think he's 3rd choice at 10. It's a conscious decision by all parties to move JH to 15 and rebuild his career from there.  He didn't play there at all last season, by the way - he started at 10 every time.  Lopez is a potential superstar, but the youngster Allan is very green and no way would he plausibly start "ahead of"  JH had not Hook consciously given up the jersey.

Why? Maybe Gats/Howley tipped him the wink he stands more chance of Wales caps if he polishes his credentials at 15.  Maybe his agent told him he would have a longer career there. Maybe he's lost his broken play mojo and wants to use his siege-gun boot more.

Probably we'll never know - but it's a sad loss in my view. Perhaps we've seen the last  of the natural jinkers to play 10 for Wales.

SD,

Come when was the last time we had a 'natural jinker' play for Wales in any extended capacity.

For me that is still a mystical myth us of a certain generation hold dear, a myth we hade moved on from a long time ago.

bedfordwelsh wrote:SD,

Come when was the last time we had a 'natural jinker' play for Wales in any extended capacity.

For me that is still a mystical myth us of a certain generation hold dear, a myth we hade moved on from a long time ago.

Sounds a bit like that pundit who wrote off Shane Williams saying rugby is a game for big players. I still hope Matthew Morgan comes through. Sam Davis was U20 player of tournament, a jinker, and from the feedback I got from non Welsh supporters, there were rave reviews for Jordan Williams, in the same tournament, jinker extraordinaire.
There is room for "natural jinkers" in modern rugby.

Leave Patchell alone, we don't have another 10 at the blues and don't want Team Wales gobbling him up and spitting him out injured.

Norfolklass wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:SD,

Come when was the last time we had a 'natural jinker' play for Wales in any extended capacity.

For me that is still a mystical myth us of a certain generation hold dear, a myth we hade moved on from a long time ago.

Sounds a bit like that pundit who wrote off Shane Williams saying rugby is a game for big players. I still hope Matthew Morgan comes through. Sam Davis was U20 player of tournament, a jinker, and from the feedback I got from non Welsh supporters, there were rave reviews for Jordan Williams, in the same tournament, jinker extraordinaire.
There is room for "natural jinkers" in modern rugby.

NL,

Never said there isn't a place for jinkers just stating that we (Wales) have't had an established one for a very long time and some still live the dream of us always having that elusive running jinking No10.

If the likes of Morgan and Davies make the cut then great but at the moment we have to play the cards we are dealt.

I can't see Morgan making it to test level to be honest, not as a flyhalf anyway. Too big a liability in defence, but he does have good pace and a nice step.

IronMike wrote:I can't see Morgan making it to test level to be honest, not as a flyhalf anyway. Too big a liability in defence, but he does have good pace and a nice step.

He also has a great vision when taking on a defence, similarly Jordan Williams.

maestegmafia wrote:You don't think he is the best option we have as a utility player on the bench?

He is the best utility player we have, however for the bench if we went with Ll Williams/G Davies (whichever doesn't start), Priestland, Li Williams, then we will have cover for 9, 10, 11, 14, 15 on the bench with the option of moving North into the centre if needed.

bedfordwelsh wrote:SD,

Come when was the last time we had a 'natural jinker' play for Wales in any extended capacity.

For me that is still a mystical myth us of a certain generation hold dear, a myth we hade moved on from a long time ago.

There was a bloke called Shane Williams who played a few games for us. Not a bad little player, according to reports.

IronMike wrote:I can't see Morgan making it to test level to be honest, not as a flyhalf anyway. Too big a liability in defence, but he does have good pace and a nice step.

I think that Matthew Morgan is a real talent, however I doubt he will ever break into the national side unless we have a culture change at international level. Our national side is geared around big, fast lumps, and if they have a bit of skill all the better. There is space in the team of a smaller, although couragous, back, but that is taken by Halfpenny.

I have said it before on numerous threads, we Welsh have a real desire to see our players dancing around otehr players and playing barbarian style rugby, however in reality we all know deep down that, especially in recent times, it is the solid grinding workhorse type playes and tactics that seem to work for us internationally. For example Lloyd Williams is a pretty sniping scrum half, but we tend to do better with a fourth backrower type of scrum half. Priestland and Hook are attractive playmakers, but we do better with a solid controller in the fly half shirt like Steve Jones, or Biggar. And we all accept it as long as there is space for one player who is slightly different in there, who we can pretty gets the ball and works something magic, like Shane Williams or Tuppance.

I'm not necessarily convinced that everyone in our backline needs to be massive to compete internationally, Australia don't have a big back line, and recent form aside, dont tend to do badly. As long as you have a decent defensive game you will survive at international level.

Unfortunately for Morgan, though talented, I don't think he can quite match other players defensively, he needs to look at the way Cruden defends as they are similar in size.

Mike, I agree that a backline doesn't need to look like a bunch of backrowers who run fast tobe sucsessful internationally, however wgith the tactics employed by the welsh set up, which won't change, needs bulk over skills.

Jordan Williams and Eli Walker are both looking sharp at the moment, more relevant to this thread so is Priestland, his pace is a great catalyst for the backline.

samuraidragon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:SD,

Come when was the last time we had a 'natural jinker' play for Wales in any extended capacity.

For me that is still a mystical myth us of a certain generation hold dear, a myth we hade moved on from a long time ago.

There was a bloke called Shane Williams who played a few games for us. Not a bad little player, according to reports.

Not at No10 he didn't which is what this thread is about, well unless I was way more drunk for a lot of his games than i remeber.

If it wins us games (as generally has been over past few seasons) I don't care what type of player players as long as he is good enoug.

I have sat through way to many games in the dark days of the 90s when we had the 'so called' more skillful players but it didn't do us any good on the whole.

bedfordwelsh wrote:If it wins us games (as generally has been over past few seasons) I don't care what type of player players as long as he is good enoug.

I have sat through way to many games in the dark days of the 90s when we had the 'so called' more skillful players but it didn't do us any good on the whole.

I can't see a flyhalf of Williams or Morgans stature being prevalent in world rugby due to these with which opposition can exploit their physicality...! Such a shame as it is the stature of these lads that has encouraged their skills.

Aaron Cruden is doing just fine maestegmafia, you just need to work on your weaknesses to make it.

Much closer than I thought, though Morgan is over a stone lighter and smaller.

Aaren Cruden

Height: 1.75 m (5 ft 9 in)
Weight: 84 kg (13 st 3 lb)


Matthew Morgan

1.72 m (5 ft 8 in)
73 kg (11 st 7 lb)

bedfordwelsh wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:SD,

Come when was the last time we had a 'natural jinker' play for Wales in any extended capacity.

For me that is still a mystical myth us of a certain generation hold dear, a myth we hade moved on from a long time ago.

There was a bloke called Shane Williams who played a few games for us. Not a bad little player, according to reports.

Not at No10 he didn't which is what this thread is about, well unless I was way more drunk for a lot of his games than i remeber.

Your comment was "in any capacity" - which I took to mean in any position. But anyway, the point is that players like Shane are super-rare in any position, which is why they are so hard to defend against. It was two pieces of broken field magic by Halfpenny which won the Lions series in the last half hour. Until then the heavy mob had laboured in vain against a poor Aussie side.

Someone mentioned Cruden as an example of small and elusive fly hakf. Likewise, Oz have fantastic game-breakers like O'Connor, Beale and Quade, all of whom have been given shots at 10.  The results have been mixed, but  their "steady  eddie game manager" 10s like Barnes have achieved nothing.

As for Wales - basically, the 10 shirt has been monopolized by two players since the era of JD1, Jenkins and Wellies, both frankly mediocre, though they had a huge run of caps because there was nobody better.   So the answer to the question - when did Wales have a traditional jinking fly half, is 3 fly halves ago.

maestegmafia wrote:Much closer than I thought, though Morgan is over a stone lighter and smaller.

Aaren Cruden

Height: 1.75 m (5 ft 9 in)
Weight: 84 kg (13 st 3 lb)


Matthew Morgan

1.72 m (5 ft 8 in)
73 kg (11 st 7 lb)

Matthew Morgan 5'8"!!!! Funny.

Players' official stats are notoriously inaccurate, often deliberately, as often mentioned by ex-player pundits such as Will Greenwood, Jiffy, Keith Wood etc.

Nipper is 5'5" max - and that's in Cuban heels.

I've seen him. I'd say 5'7 is about accurate. Wasn't Jiffy 5'7?

Sounds about right...! Still he has a lot to prove to get to Crudens standing