Carter slips down the pecking order

There was oncea time when NZ held its breath when DC was injured. Injury to Carter and McCaw made victory seem like a bonus - the main emphasis to get through a game and blood some new talent while doing the jersey proud. I think McCaw has missed just half a dozen or so matches against major opposition and NZ have a dire track record on those occasions. 

But putting aside the controversy if Saturdays match, what it shows us is that NZ will compete with the best and expect to win with both key playmakers out.

Aaron Cruden emerged last year as probably superior to Carter on current form and since then I believe Carter has been in decline further. He takes the line less frequently, his goal kicking average has dipped away and he just doesn't add the sizzle he used to. 

Step up Beauden Barrett. I think BB is now the All Blacks second best 10, behind Cruden. He brings another dimension with his long range tactical kicking and showed the cunning of Carter of old as he slipped an astonishing 6 springbok tackles. 

If DC is around for RWC 2015 then he will have to push hard to be the preferred starting option. And he will need to prove he can stay injury free, up his work rate, re-establish his kicking accuracy and hone his awareness. Five years ago he would have stepped Du Plessis, making him look a rushing fool and casually swaggered 50 meters before picking out a support runner. Now he's just getting flattened.

Cruden is a flash in the pan. He will never be as good as Carter. He is having a good season this year but he is very light for an international OH and will no doubt struggle with injuries as his career progresses especially given the way he plays.

Lets not forget that DC has scored 29 tries for NZ Cruden only has 1 in 23 starts even though he is lauded for being an attacking OH.

How many has he set up though? An awful lot. His combination with SBW (returning) is awesome. He single handedly ripped apart ireland in 15 minutes.

https://youtu.be/xZc9uuHfJYU

0:58 seconds. That's no flash in the pan.

GloriousEmpire wrote:How many has he set up though? An awful lot. His combination with SBW (returning) is awesome. He single handedly ripped apart ireland in 15 minutes.

No I think you will find its a team game and he had help from 14 other fairly good players. Beauden Barrett scored more points than Cruden in that match. That was also the worst Ireland performance in 50 years. Thats like saying Danny Care is the next Joost Van Der Weisthuizen based on his highlight reel v NZ in Englands recent win.

Yes but he does it consistently, and for the chiefs week in and week out against the best teams in the world.

Did you also spot the cameo by BOD at 1:58? Check the way Cruden burns him off. And then who's that popping up to finish off?

Although wow, topical...check the "hand off"' by Hosea Gear at 3:54... Elbow to the throat?

GloriousEmpire wrote:Although wow, topical...check the "hand off"' by Hosea Gear at 3:54... Elbow to the throat?

Everyone does that. Savea did it for one of his trys too and knocked Keith Earls out.

When you are blind sided by a player there is nothing you can do about it. You will take the hit and will not be ready for it either. The difference between a player knowing he is going to get hit and one that isn't is huge.

Added to the fact that the player who hit him has about 20kg of muscle on him would suggest its nothing to do with him beginning to get old or anything... 5 years ago he would have taken the hit just as badly.

fa0019 wrote:When you are blind sided by a player there is nothing you can do about it. You will take the hit and will not be ready for it either. The difference between a player knowing he is going to get hit and one that isn't is huge.

Added to the fact that the player who hit him has about 20kg of muscle on him would suggest its nothing to do with him beginning to get old or anything... 5 years ago he would have taken the hit just as badly.

Are you referring to Carter's injury? Must look it up. Missed the game.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:When you are blind sided by a player there is nothing you can do about it. You will take the hit and will not be ready for it either. The difference between a player knowing he is going to get hit and one that isn't is huge.

Added to the fact that the player who hit him has about 20kg of muscle on him would suggest its nothing to do with him beginning to get old or anything... 5 years ago he would have taken the hit just as badly.

Are you referring to Carter's injury? Must look it up. Missed the game.

https://youtu.be/WJJeqAmEV3I

Yeah that was tasty. A few incidents on that clip. Nice.

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah that was tasty. A few incidents on that clip. Nice.

And the second one 

https://youtu.be/F4JsFZQBjcE

I compare that to the Hosea gear incident in the earlier clip. Very very similar.

Players use their elbow a lot in contact but usually the elbow of the arm thats holding the ball and they get away with it because obviously you cant straighten your arm when you are holding the ball. Does it make it more obvious and therefore somehow more serious that DuPlessis used his other arm?

Grant fox is saying a very similar thing today


http://nzh.tw/11125531

Could well be that we have the best 3 10s in the business looking at the poor efforts of other sides. Steyn is consistently limited, oz dont even know who theres is and none in the NH are consistent enough to discuss seriously other than sexton who stands out like a sore thumb up there for the same reason- lack of competition. Hes amongst the 3 somewhere.

Interestingly all 3 have strengths in attacking the line dc and cruden more susceptible to injury. Barrett is the worst of the 3 defensively- in fact hes well short of international level in that dept but he does have the gift for finding the gap in the same way dc does- coasts through so to speak.

point is we have 3 test level 10's 2 years out from the cup, 2 at a young age. We also have others coming through. Same thing is happening in other positions and it showed against the boks where as players were being knocked out of the match others not only contributed but performed as well as if not better than those they replaced- barrett and piatau the prime examples.

Ive watched this match 4 times now and the AB intensity has not been as high as this probably since that semi against oz in 2011. The forcing of the boks into errors happened all through the match that they just couldnt put anything together. DPs presence wasnt going to sway this match to a different result. NZ didnt get as many points on the board as they should have in his absence but all over the park they were in the bok faces, in numbers. Standout performances by both back 3's who outperformed the boks in both, not letting them gain any real yardage, the best bok effort DP's try.

In short the boks didnt match the AB intensity and DPs absence has possibly glossed over that fact. It wont have been missed on the ABs who know exactly what to do in Ellis park- up the intensity and force mistakes- again. And more recently, the ABs seem to play better away than at home in this tournament.

Since Dan Carter has been injured more or less all season one can hardly call it on current
form.DC`s goalkicking has been pretty consistent had several posters or crossbars hits
which means he`s there or there about.Face it if he`s fit he starts every time but there
are at least 4 others who can do a job now.Incidentally know its only one match but
Sam Cane impressed think Luatua`s bulk at 6 might have got him the start Saturday.
With the Boks match in 3 weeks time Crudon back training with the Squad and McCaw
back possibly.Last match will be a humdinger especially if the AB`s can pick up at
least a bonus point.Boks will be out prove a point is it at altitude or sealevel?

I think the Boks will be out for "revenge". I can't see it bring a great game. It'll all come down to whether the ref has the bottle to call it after the last shambles.

SA may take their eye of the ball and lose to the Aussies. That'd throw it to NZ. Which im predicting at this point.

Lose to the ozzies- at home? Doubt it very much. We have to pick up the pieces in Arg as well and it will make the last match near impossible if we lose to Argie before it.

Ellis park Alan- as tough as it gets.

I called the last one right...

Taylorman wrote:Could well be that we have the best 3 10s in the business looking at the poor efforts of other sides. Steyn is consistently limited, oz dont even know who theres is and none in the NH are consistent enough to discuss seriously other than sexton who stands out like a sore thumb up there for the same reason- lack of competition. Hes amongst the 3 somewhere.

Errrmmm...have you not heard of Freddy Michalak?

Or this beast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EunMEouRXLc ??


The highlights of that 60-0 game against Ireland are scary to watch. Tore them apart. As someone who has never experienced Kiwi rugby first hand, how can you do that? Honestly, it's scary. To be able to perpetually maintain your position as best team in the world, but not stagnate, and still put out a second string side that could beat nearly every other team in the world on a consistent basis. Truly scary.

Ireland possibly have the next best two- Madigan in the waiting-but its more of a case of recent 10's being so inconsistent that the others stand out:
-Cooper
-Steyne
-Priestland
-Michelak
-Farrell

all brilliant at one time in their career, average to terrible the next. The skill and experience levels of 10's these days require very high standards just to play average matches, let alone good ones.

I think it's brave, and wrong, to say that Beauden Barrett is a better 10 than Morne Steyn. You many not rate Steyn, but he's still one of the best in his position in the world, and has proven that with consistency on the international stage. He's gone through dips in form, and may be slightly limited compared to other, flatter 10s, but he's still effective, and can bring the midfield into the game. I think I've even see him make a few breaks...

Quade Cooper has all the talent but none of the consistency. Berrick Barnes is a decent 10, a solid distributor given a good enough platform. Sexton is probably the perfect marriage of their abilities, and probably just ahead of Steyn, though he hasn't quite delivered his Leinster performances to the green shirt.

Michalak has been crud internationally for years. Skrela looked a good 10 for a while, but has faded, and Beauxis is one of the best kicking 10s in the world, but neither of them are really big players at 10. I don't think Scotland, Wales or England can claim to have a fly half rubbing shoulders with the top 5. James Hook should have been by now, but has been wasted. Flood is pragmatic and a decent running 10, but always suffered due to Wilkinson's shadow. Priestland and Biggar seem similar in standard. Farrell looks far more suited to 12 than 10.

Outside of that, Tusi Pisi had a great World Cup, but I haven't really tracked his progress since, and the Sanchez lad for Argentina has shown talent, but still too early in his career.

Without ranking them, Cruden's probably marked himself down as one of the best 10s at Test level, but Barrett surely needs regular game time for another international season before he's judged by the same parameters? Until then, I'd still say Steyn, Barnes etc. are more proven, and therefore better, Test 10s than Barrett; only game time will get him up there with the rest.

You wouldnt find a kiwi (or many) that would go into a test today with Steyn over Barrett. His recent efforts against NZ- including last weeks have been abysmal. Barrett gets mentioned for potential admittedly but hes not yet put a foot wrong in the test chances he's got so far. His defence hasnt been shown up at test level yet (In sxv it has) but it will unless he improves.

Steyn seems to be mentally vulnerable to the pressure of playing NZ in NZ. I said it before the game and backed it with stats, nobody was interested.