'Bite the hands off Aviva Premiership clubs if they offer Anglo Welsh league,' Michael Owen

'Bite the hands off Aviva Premiership clubs if they offer Anglo Welsh league,' Michael Owen

Wales' 2005 Grand Slam winning captain Michael Owen has urged the Welsh regions to accept the offer of an Anglo Welsh league if it comes their way


Former Wales captain Michael Owen has urged the regions to bite the hands off the English clubs if they are offered a place in a new Anglo-Welsh league.

Nigel Wray – the chairman of Saracens, who Owen used to play for – wants to see the four Welsh regions join the English Premiership.

Wray says he believes that would create a “fantastic tournament” and that he would be “greatly surprised” if the Welsh didn’t jump at the chance.

Owen agrees it would be a superb competition and too good an opportunity for the regions to turn down.

“Joining the English league would be an unbelievable proposition for the Welsh teams,” said the former Grand Slam skipper. “It’s such a strong competition. The league is so well marketed and so well run.

“England have got such a depth of talent in terms of player numbers, which means there are a lot of strong teams.

“The Premiership has evolved and got stronger and stronger over a number of years. If the Welsh regions are offered a place in it by the English, they would have to bite their hand off.

“You would get more people in Wales watching rugby again. People could go to the games in England.

“To go up to Edinburgh or Glasgow or over to Munster and Leinster is really difficult.

“Realistically, people are not going to go over there, so you are only going to be watching rugby every other week.

“Years ago, a Newport or a Pontypridd fan would have gone to watch rugby every week, home and away.

“That has been lost a little bit with the regions because you obviously can’t follow your team as much. To be in the English league would be absolutely amazing for Wales, in terms of playing standard, commercially, absolutely everything.”


However, in order to leave the Pro12, any of the participating Unions would have to serve three years notice because of existing contractual commitments, which would present significant problems in terms of getting into bed with the English.

Acknowledging the potential obstacles, Owen said: “Obviously there are contracts in place that could make it difficult to get out of the Pro12.

“But if the offer did come along, the regions would have to take it if they were able to. You can’t ignore that, can you?

“It’s a great competition and it makes more sense logistically.

“Maybe there does need to be a quick fix, because Welsh regional rugby is struggling financially from everything we are told and finding it hard to compete salary-wise.

“I am sure the regions would jump at it.

“It would just be an amazing competition to be part of. It would work really well. In principle you have to say it would be a good thing.”

The comments from Wray serve as the latest twist in the ongoing debate over the future shape of European rugby.

With the Heineken Cup set to end after this season amid plans by the English and French clubs to set up their own breakaway event, there have been grave fears over the future of the Welsh regions.

They currently receive £4.11m a year from European Cup rugby and the loss of that revenue could be crippling. It could even bring into question the ability to sustain four professional sides.

“This is an unbelievable, tumultuous time,” said Owen. “It’s a critical moment for professional rugby in Wales.”

Giving an insight into Wray, former Saracens No.8 Owen said: “Nigel is a very genuine fellow and he would only say things if he really believed them.

“He wants Saracens to play in the best possible, most vibrant competition.”

Speaking over the weekend, Wray said: “I’ve thought for a long time, and this is a personal opinion, that we should have the four Welsh teams in the Aviva Premiership.

“That would make it a fantastic tournament. The customer is king and he wants to see big games.

“I can’t speak for the Welsh, but I’d be greatly surprised if they wouldn’t jump at the chance of playing the English clubs more often.”

Wray has also urged the Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues and Dragons to join the English and French clubs in breaking away from Heineken Cup organisers ERC and forming a new European tournament.

“My message to the Welsh teams is simple: ‘Join the competition.’ “At the end of the day, you have to have guts,” he added. “They would be a hell of a lot better off than they are now.”

Well said Mike, but stick to football son  

On a serious note he is bang on the money, take it if it comes your way.

There's no way we can just leave the Rabbo (or whoever sponsors it next season)

They could get rid of the LV though and put somethign more meaningful in

I was reading about this in the Rugby Paper. It seems that quite a few people think this may happen.

Big trouble for the Irish, Scots and Italians if it does.

Except that would still be played during International release periods.

Nigel Wray was trolling the rugby world and Michael Owen has eaten the bait.

I don't see how it legally can anytime soon.

I'm not even sure who runs the 'Rabbo' - who aren;t sponsoring it next season. I'd like a more familar company sponsoring it, onloy the Irish know who they are  

LondonTiger wrote:Except that would still be played during International release periods.

Nigel Wray was trolling the rugby world and Michael Owen has eaten the bait.

He comes across as a bit easily led up the garden path alright. I think the Welsh would be taking a massive risk joining the English premiership. With the number of players they have going to France they could lose a region to relegation in the first few seasons and lose another a few seasons after that. Not to mention the fact that they'd be leaving their Celtic cousins and the Italians very much in the lurch.

He would have to be seperate competition rather than Wales pulling out of the Celtic league alltogethr.

i think the welsh regions should do whatever offers them the biggest profit, if joining the english will increase seasonal profits, imo they should jump at the opportunity for more money

Forget about the Irish, us English fans knew dropping BOD was the right thing to do for the Lions the same way we know dropping the Irish, Scots and Italians is the right thing to do for the Welsh rugby at club level.

Dave - Can't see how the regions could play in 2 seperate leagues and if it was a cup format it would just be like the LV.

international197 - The English have a long history of the divide and conquer tactic.  As a Celt you should really be a bit more wise to it - they wave a wad of cash at you, you leave the Rabo, the other Celtic nations sink and who knows what would happen to the regions in a league with relegation and much better funded English clubs.

Welsh Regions cannot do this without the WRU agrreing I would have thought.

You'd have to disband the regions. Never going to happen

Should point out that my above post is hypothetical.

 Dave ? Who is this Dave you speak of ?

And yes, this is all part of the war. Nigel Wray probably actually wants some sort of European Super League, with massive incomes, no salary caps and &*%£ to anyone too small to be considered part of it.

There are a lot of vested interests involved, a lot of egos and a lot of self interest. And i reckon the PRL would hang smaller english clubs to dry. Mind Welsh Regian=s would drop their Rabo compatriots like a shot, and would probably sacrifice Dragons if they coudl get richer.

wOAH...WOAH...Lets not get crazy  

artful-dodger - i reckon the four welsh regions join the aviva make it 16 teams if more money for welsh regions. wales has 'insurance' league in principality premiership if bad things happen but only one relegated team each season and welsh regions unlikely to be relegated from aviva against the likes of newcastle, sale, warriors, irish and so on english championship strong competition anyway maybe more money in english championship than rabodirect?

international197 wrote:artful-dodger - i reckon the four welsh regions join the aviva make it 16 teams if more money for welsh regions. wales has 'insurance' league in principality premiership if bad things happen but only one relegated team each season and welsh regions unlikely to be relegated from aviva against the likes of newcastle, sale, warriors, irish and so on english championship strong competition anyway maybe more money in english championship than rabodirect?

 

This is what I do not get.

If one team is relegated - how do you decide who is promoted. English Championship champions, Principality Champions?

If such a league was formed, I doubt tyhere would be any relegation or promotion.

munkian wrote:People could go to the games in England.

“To go up to Edinburgh or Glasgow or over to Munster and Leinster is really difficult.

“Realistically, people are not going to go over there, so you are only going to be watching rugby every other week

Hmmm...so if people aren't willing to travel to Edinburgh or Dublin (let alone games on their doorsteps), travelling to London and Newcastle is somehow going to boost attendance figures?

What is Michael Owen speaking as? Merely a pundit or an ex player, or does he represent a body or Saracens? He also came out and said Henson should move to number 8 a few years ago, so I'd take his opinion very lightly.

Also, Wray's comments do not hide the blatant superiority certain English clubs clearly have. "Come on, join with us in a league, you'll be better off, and drop out of the HC, with your support we can almost make sure we cripple it, and therefore we get to call the shots. But then you'll be with us in a league. So it's win-win. Except the English hold most of the power. Which is only right..."

Logistics aside, which means legally not a lot can happen until 2015/2016, this is the prime opportunity to disband the Rabo, create an elite European league, possibly three tiered with Romanian/Georigian representation, which is played consecutively, not disrupted by LV games, and with a universal salary cap.

LondonTiger wrote:This is what I do not get.

If one team is relegated - how do you decide who is promoted. English Championship champions, Principality Champions?

If such a league was formed, I doubt tyhere would be any relegation or promotion.

just english championship?
like football
welsh premier league (bala town fc prestatyn town fc etc no promotion to english premier league)
english premier league (swansea fc cardiff fc manchester united fc liverpool fc etc relegation to english championship)
english championship (cardiff fc last season reading qpr etc promotion to english premier league)

however only if *more money* for welsh regions/welsh rugby in general

Option One
It would be great for Welsh rugby if it happened, pretty sure having English sides visiting the regions would increase the gates and revitalise Welsh rugby, it would bring in more money and in a few seasons with good fortune Welsh clubs would certainly challenge and maybe even dominate the upper levels of the league.
I'd love to see the great powerhouses of Welsh rugby back at the top table, with PRL money to enable them to hold on their best players and develop new ones. Imagine a league table with Scarlets Blues and Ospreys sitting pretty at the top end above the Tigers, Quins and Saints.
And just think of the impact on the Welsh international side of their top players getting more contact with the English internationals - Wales could be big in Japan....

Be careful what you wish for Mr. Wray

LondonTiger wrote:This is what I do not get.

If one team is relegated - how do you decide who is promoted. English Championship champions, Principality Champions?

If such a league was formed, I doubt tyhere would be any relegation or promotion.

London Welsh gave way to Newcastle
(ok ok, that does not help)

Irish Londoner wrote:Option One
It would be great for Welsh rugby if it happened, pretty sure having English sides visiting the regions would increase the gates and revitalise Welsh rugby, it would bring in more money and in a few seasons with good fortune Welsh clubs would certainly challenge and maybe even dominate the upper levels of the league.
I'd love to see the great powerhouses of Welsh rugby back at the top table, with PRL money to enable them to hold on their best players and develop new ones. Imagine a league table with Scarlets Blues and Ospreys sitting pretty at the top end above the Tigers, Quins and Saints.
And just think of the impact on the Welsh international side of their top players getting more contact with the English internationals - Wales could be big in Japan....

Be careful what you wish for Mr. Wray

I had to check the calendar just to make sure it wasn't the start of April.  

Not a hope of the Welsh teams joining the AP. Anyone who thinks its back on should really use their grey matter and consider the timing of it.


Its only in the news now to try and divide the Pro 12 teams. Pure and simple. PRL is an organisation that is looking after all the English teams. There would be war if Welsh teams joined the AP.

Option Two
It's a complete disaster for Welsh rugby, the fans who don't come to watch English sides in the HEC certainly don't come out for Sale/LI/Falcons and only sporadically for the big guns. The additional funding is quickly swllowed in wage increases needed to stop players moving to English clubs and in a few seasons the Welsh clubs are rooted to the bottom half of the table.
The PRL are getting agitated complaints from the Championship clubs and RFU that promotion and relegation has come to a halt as the bottom side is Welsh and can't be relegated to the Championship, the best Welsh players are jumping ship to the wealthier and more successful English teams and it's business as usual for the Jeff top 4. Eventually the PRL concede to the pressure and ask a Welsh team to step out to fend off a court case from the Championship clubs.
The Welsh internationals are knackered from playing constant rugby and their English counterparts regularly thump them in the 6Ns through familiarity with their playing style.

You got what you wished for Mr. Wray.........

profitius wrote:

Its only in the news now to try and divide the Pro 12 teams. Pure and simple. PRL is an organisation that is looking after all the English teams. There would be war if Welsh teams joined the AP.

Summed up perfectly.  Unfortunately some Welsh fans can only see the illusionary money sign being waved in front of them and are being caught hook line and sinker by the oldest English trick in the book.

PS

Michael Owen is a gullible fool.

Perfidious Albion.

This has absolutely NO chance of happening, as somebody else said 3 years would have to evolve before it can happen, would the PRL then ensure that any Welsh players could not play outside of IRB windows, Michael Owen never was the brightest, don't forget he was only Welsh captain because Alfie was injured. Nigel Wray as somebody else says is using the divide and conquer rule.
Something might happen on the Franglo Competition, the majority on the Os forum want us to join up, I know for a fact the money the WRU receive from the ERC is not divided by 4, a lot of this money is dished out to a lot of the junior clubs, that is part of the reason why there is so much acrimony between those 2 organisations.

Artful_Dodger wrote:PS

Michael Owen is employed by Saracens.

Corrected for you.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

profitius wrote:

Its only in the news now to try and divide the Pro 12 teams. Pure and simple. PRL is an organisation that is looking after all the English teams. There would be war if Welsh teams joined the AP.

Summed up perfectly.  Unfortunately some Welsh fans can only see the illusionary money sign being waved in front of them and are being caught hook line and sinker by the oldest English trick in the book.

Of course everyone else is being good, decent and honest?


Sorry but No. they are all a bunch of self-serving egotists, whether they are based in London, Cardiff or Dublin.

LondonTiger wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

profitius wrote:

Its only in the news now to try and divide the Pro 12 teams. Pure and simple. PRL is an organisation that is looking after all the English teams. There would be war if Welsh teams joined the AP.

Summed up perfectly.  Unfortunately some Welsh fans can only see the illusionary money sign being waved in front of them and are being caught hook line and sinker by the oldest English trick in the book.

Of course everyone else is being good, decent and honest?


Sorry but No. they are all a bunch of self-serving egotists, whether they are based in London, Cardiff or Dublin.

That may well be LT, I'm simply pointing out that in this case the English rugby establishment are playing divide and conquer with the Celts and unfortunately some people can't see that because all they can see is this money the PRL, or Wray or whoever else is talking about. Michael Owen is so stupid that he can't see the likes of Wray are using him as a pawn.

It's a strong presumption that all 4 welsh sides get straight into the Jeff.  I would have thought at best Osprey and Scarlets get in and Cardiff and Newport get the championship.

The PRL have gone straight where anyone with any sense would have expected, to the welsh.  The Scots will get screwed on any new deal.  The Italians are being laughed at and completely disrespected.  The IRFU have great chips in their corner of recent HC winners in Leinster and Munster and recent finalists in Ulster.  Plus on a principle basis the IRFU are keeping the argument in place that it is a competition for the 6 nations to organise and not 3 leagues to haggle over.

How does the 4th AI occur if such a change is made? That would cripple the WRU pocket, which would be great news for PRL.  I'm sure there would be plenty of other little clauses that they could put into place to try and consolidate control/power at PRL instead of RFU or WRU offices.

LondonTiger wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

profitius wrote:

Its only in the news now to try and divide the Pro 12 teams. Pure and simple. PRL is an organisation that is looking after all the English teams. There would be war if Welsh teams joined the AP.

Summed up perfectly.  Unfortunately some Welsh fans can only see the illusionary money sign being waved in front of them and are being caught hook line and sinker by the oldest English trick in the book.

Of course everyone else is being good, decent and honest?


Sorry but No. they are all a bunch of self-serving egotists, whether they are based in London, Cardiff or Dublin.

Big difference between the PRL making false promises and the other PRO12 countries who have agreed to stick together.


Theres also a lot of talk about Leinster considering their options. Leinster are completely owned by the IRFU and so the IRFU will decide their fate. All this talk was once again an attempt to try and divide the Celtic and Italian unions.

Irish Londoner wrote:Option One
in a few seasons with good fortune Welsh clubs would certainly challenge and maybe even dominate the upper levels of the league.

No way. The Blues and Scarlets are probably on a par with Exeter, but all the regions, excluding the Ospreys, simply do not have packs that are big or strong enough to compete in such an attritional league. Nor do they have the depth. It's a hypothetical, however if you entered the regions into the Premiership and took the Blues and Dragons out of the HC, Blues to the Amlin, I think three regions would be in or around the relegation place(s?). You'd back the Ospreys to finish in the top 4, and possibly win it, but they're getting weaker by they year. Look at their side with the Welsh backline and Holah/Collins etc. a few years ago, and to fielding scrum halves on the wing last season, it's been a steep decline. They couldn't even keep hold of Kahn Fotouali'i, and he's gone to a side that in reality isn't vastly better, but the gap between the two teams is only going to grow- there's simply no money in the Welsh regions.

Even if the regions removed the self-imposed salary cap so they could compete with the Premiership's extra million or however much it is, they'd be competing at the bottom of the table in monetary terms. And if they're in the same league as English clubs, is there any incentive for Welsh internationals to stay with their regions when they can earn more money in England with less jeopardy of not playing for Wales? For all the novelty factor for the fans, and the idea of cross border rivalries on a weekly basis, this would be terrible for the Welsh regions. At least if they stick with Ireland, Scotland, and Italy, they have power in numbers, rather than becoming the lapdog of the English. Also, purely hypothetically, which sounds better, a Welsh-English league, or a Welsh-Irish-Italian-Scottish league? Surely the latter.

The way I see it the Welsh Regions have to decide whether they're going to stand on their own two feet and be healthy businesses as well as clubs, survive on handouts from the WRU or forever be in the shadow of the Irish super clubs that like everyone to think they are the good guys when really they operate on much bigger budgets etc....

Owen talks a lot of sense, why people can't see it is beyond me.

Scrumpy wrote:The way I see it the Welsh Regions have to decide whether they're going to stand on their own two feet and be healthy businesses as well as clubs, survive on handouts from the WRU or forever be in the shadow of the Irish super clubs that like everyone to think they are the good guys when really they operate on much bigger budgets etc....

Owen talks a lot of sense, why people can't see it is beyond me.

Indeed, you are the sole sane voice while all else is crazed o0

Are Wray's plans going awry........on the face of it, 'come and join us, you know you want to' but underneath wonder whether it's 'discussions with French not going quite to plan, quick let's throw a line to Leinster, nope, let's go to the Welsh'.

Is it a case of smoke and mirror to try and destabilise the pro12 solidarity OR squeaky bum time and the need to try and get another option going at all costs OR just a chance anagram?

I remember reading and interview with Jinks the last time an Anglo-Welsh league was being touted (Pre Regions)

The WRU wanted 6 clubs (Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli, Neath and Pontypridd) in the league but the English only wanted 4 (Swansea, Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli) with Neath and Ponty going into the 2nd division.

Ponty at the time were in the pomp and Jinks basically said that the WRU should have taken the offer because he firmly believed that Ponty would only spend one season in 2nd division then get promoted.

As history shows the WRU stuck to their guns and it all fell through and we are were we are today.

Oh, I get it. It's one if those irregular verbs:

I am right
You are intellectually dishonest and have no regard for the facts
He is a liar or speaking sense depending on whether he is on my side
We are banding together for the good of rugby
You are unscrupulous millionaire sugar daddies who care about nothing but profit
They will never allow a breakaway tournament

What is the proposal?

If the Welsh regions join the AP that makes 16 teams in the league - 30 games per season, so is Wray proposing relegation the the Championship and qualification for the Frangelsh Skol cup (and associated 6-9 games)? Going to need big well financed squads to compete in all those games... wonder which competition the Welsh regions would be most likely to qualify for?

Currently the Franglos are complaining about the quality and diversity in the Amlin so what better than to pad out the secondary competition with some Welsh cannon fodder, rather than trawl the bottom of the French and English second tiers.

Of course if the French throw their lot in with the Celts at the last minute, then it is prudent of Wray to have a ready made plan B with the Welsh going the other way and so not leave the PRL teams out in the cold. We can all look forward to the PRL propaganda machine to be wheeling out a few more interviews and opinions in the coming weeks.

profitius wrote:

Its only in the news now to try and divide the Pro 12 teams. Pure and simple. PRL is an organisation that is looking after all the English teams. There would be war if Welsh teams joined the AP.

This.

Rabo unions must stay unified, 4>2.

There is no proposal. Wray said in his personal opinion an Anglo-Welsh league would be good. That's it. Meaningless

bedfordwelsh wrote:I remember reading and interview with Jinks the last time an Anglo-Welsh league was being touted (Pre Regions)

The WRU wanted 6 clubs (Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli, Neath and Pontypridd) in the league but the English only wanted 4 (Swansea, Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli) with Neath and Ponty going into the 2nd division.

Ponty at the time were in the pomp and Jinks basically said that the WRU should have taken the offer because he firmly believed that Ponty would only spend one season in 2nd division then get promoted.

As history shows the WRU stuck to their guns and it all fell through and we are were we are today.

bw - from previous posts I reckon you remember the old merit table prior to the national leagues being introduced in 1987.

The cross border games were keenly anticipated, and well attended. But the game has moved on in all countries, and Wales now has the regions as their top level; so a lot of the old rivalries just aren't there anymore.

However, I reckon such a league would be a massive boost for Welsh rugby in terms of attendance at games. Not to mention potentially improving the national team.

It's a pipe dream at the moment though.

Talking to a mate at the weekend, we felt the WRU would be the union most likely to join the proposed Franglo breakaway.

Sorry if that upsets anyone, but it was two reasonable blokes just discussing stuff. We also agreed that Macafferty is a self serving **** and that ERC needs to grow a pair.

 

Hound of Harrow wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I remember reading and interview with Jinks the last time an Anglo-Welsh league was being touted (Pre Regions)

The WRU wanted 6 clubs (Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli, Neath and Pontypridd) in the league but the English only wanted 4 (Swansea, Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli) with Neath and Ponty going into the 2nd division.

Ponty at the time were in the pomp and Jinks basically said that the WRU should have taken the offer because he firmly believed that Ponty would only spend one season in 2nd division then get promoted.

As history shows the WRU stuck to their guns and it all fell through and we are were we are today.

bw - from previous posts I reckon you remember the old merit table prior to the national leagues being introduced in 1987.

The cross border games were keenly anticipated, and well attended. But the game has moved on in all countries, and Wales now has the regions as their top level; so a lot of the old rivalries just aren't there anymore.

However, I reckon such a league would be a massive boost for Welsh rugby in terms of attendance at games. Not to mention potentially improving the national team.

It's a pipe dream at the moment though.

Talking to a mate at the weekend, we felt the WRU would be the union most likely to join the proposed Franglo breakaway.

Sorry if that upsets anyone, but it was two reasonable blokes just discussing stuff. We also agreed that Macafferty is a self serving **** and that ERC needs to grow a pair.

Hound,

By suggesting I remember the old merit table you are of course 'politely' saying I am an old bugger  which unfortunately I have to agree with and yes I do remember them.

The cross border games were hugely anticipated and nearly always drew big crowds. You are right that with the inception of Regions and even most of the Prem sides now being more cosmopolitan shall we say, a lot of old rivalries are gone now but some games have taken on their own new rivalries. The Tigers v O's for example has become quite a big one due to them seeing to be drawn together a lot in the HC.

HammerofThunor wrote:There is no proposal. Wray said in his personal opinion an Anglo-Welsh league would be good. That's it. Meaningless

This is what I'm not getting. This is being presented as some Machiavellian plot by the devious English to divide and conquer. It's just one man's opinion, he does not represent the whole of English rugby! Most people I know would rather the Welsh stuck to the RABO.

The PRL is not looking after all the English teams. It looks after e teams in e premiership (and the odd one that might get in). If the Welsh joined they would join the board however I imagine it would require the WRU to give the PRL the same rights the RFU do. So they would probably have 4 out of 17 votes.

VinceWLB wrote:

profitius wrote:

Its only in the news now to try and divide the Pro 12 teams. Pure and simple. PRL is an organisation that is looking after all the English teams. There would be war if Welsh teams joined the AP.

This.

Rabo unions must stay unified, 4>2.

Certainly makes the bullying easier (tongue in cheek, but only slightly)