If the Heinekin Cup ends should the English/French club players be ineligable for International rugby?

First topic message reminder :

Here's the deal. French and English clubs have a new television deal, with lots of cash. It allows them to separate from the existing tournament when it ends early next year. However, multinational rugby tournaments are governed by the IRB and the nations involved are less than supportive of the clubs moves. If the English/French clubs thumb their collective noses at the IRB one option is to remove the rights of players, playing for those clubs, to be involved in 6 nations and world cup.

Never said it was open to only Spain and Italy. It was a riposte to saying that the money of the CL has led to England having a mediocre football team. If that was true 2 of the most successful leagues in the CL are Spain and Italy and their teams have won major honours and been in the hunt at recent tournaments.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never said it was open to only Spain and Italy. It was a riposte to saying that the money of the CL has led to England having a mediocre football team. If that was true 2 of the most successful leagues in the CL are Spain and Italy and their teams have won major honours and been in the hunt at recent tournaments.

The Champions League (soccer/football/whatever) is an awful analogy. Shame on whoever made it and shame on you for 'riposting'.

Fair enough. Thought it was apt myself. A club European competition which is seemingly putting money ahead the good of the game yet countries like Spain are going from strength to strength for both club and country. Like you said Wales aren't really bothered about domestic rugby so it doesn't affect you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. Thought it was apt myself. A club European competition which is seemingly putting money ahead the good of the game yet countries like Spain are going from strength to strength for both club and country. Like you said Wales aren't really bothered about domestic rugby so it doesn't affect you.

Ar 'regional' level it won't. At test level, as more of our players will be earning good money, playing tough rugby in French and English teams, we will go from strength to strength, while England's resources are diluted.

But that's not the point. Hanging Scottish, Irish, Italian and Welsh teams out to dry over money is just bad form. More akin to 'footie' than our great game of rugby.

Without a shadow of a doubt if the clubs form a competition without their unions agreement they they should be removed from union. Including any players contracted to them (probably fairer to say new contracts).

However the PRL have already said that if the RFU don't give approval then they'll just not have anything so I can't see it happening.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are Spain and Italy in the lucrative Champions League where they can afford to buy the best players? How are those countries doing lately? Maybe in football it has more to do with grassroots training rather than money.

Actually I was more thinking about the way the clubs have lost their identity, become brands packed with players with no connection to the place, and big money dominates everything. European rugby could go the same way. I wasn't really trying to make the point about international sides, although the influence of the Premiership on the England team certainly isn't benign and a similar effect can be observed in rugby in France right now.

The short answer is NO the players as individuals have little or no say the money men behind
the scenes will decide.It sticks out like a sore thumb certain Clubs/Blazers etc are trying it on
the worst scenario.Will be a lot of fragmented tournaments all claiming to be the best what
is more important how will it help/hinder the National sides.The Top14 is as stated by me
many times overheavy with non qualified overseas players.It may allow those sides to win trophies and earn there owners big bucks.BUT is it helping the National side,France until last
Saturday were the most successful team in World Rugby in terms of games won.BUT barely
over 50% in win /losses.England`s is roughly there equivalent.
National sides are by tradition built around there strongest sides in the case of France that
is becoming harder to define.France have always been very unpredictable BUT there was a
time when they were the best in the NH most of the time[before mass imports of foreignplayers].Even the French leaders of the game realise it now,Club or Country?
the average supporter.Who has a season ticket goes to all the matches etc his Club
comes first,to armchair supporters like myself its Country. A matter of perception probably
some sort of compromise will be reached hopefully one that is not disruptive.

I don't really understand what i just voted for but anyway- NO THE WC should not be moved from England. OBVIOUSLY

mystiroakey wrote:I don't really understand what i just voted for but anyway- NO THE WC should not be moved from England. OBVIOUSLY

It all depends on what happens with the whole issue. For example, IF the RCC is blocked by the IRB and the PRL teams continue with it, then would the clubs still be willing to allow the RFU to use their pitches during the RWC?

Not sure i understand what that has got to do with the RWC which england has won. The RFU wants the RWC and of course will allow the IRB to utilize our grounds,

why would we need any other grounds other than wembley, twickenham, the olympic stadium, the millennium anyway

BTW i will admit to not having a scooby doo about what you lot are talking about. But if our clubs don't allow them to used in the RWC for whatever this reason is. There are plenty of other options to hold games

Ok just read up on it.

I 100% understand the english and french view on this.

If the HC at present isnt fair on the two biggest leagues in europe and favours the lesser rubbish then they 100% have to right to break away.

The IRB should not get involved- It literally has nothing to do with them

mystiroakey wrote:Not sure i understand what that has got to do with the RWC which england has won. The RFU wants the RWC and of course will allow the IRB to utilize our grounds,

why would we need any other grounds other than wembley, twickenham, the olympic stadium, the millennium anyway

Cough, cough whose stadia.

I don't think the RWC should be pulled from England, like you say they won the right to host it and they should host it regardless of whether their clubs end up in an unsanctioned competiton or not.

The RWC is going to be played in a number of other stadia too, presumably to ensure that it is played around the country, and also to ensure the pitches are in good nick. The schedule has been released ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22381109 ), so people looking to travel to the RWC from futher abroad may well be looking at where they will be based, and what matches they want to attend etc. So if there was a club/country poop-storm over the RCC (and unsanctioned entry or being blocked) then this could lead to games that were meant to be played in say Kingsholm, for example, having to be located elsewhere. Now I know that is not too much of a pain, you could just move them to the MillStad etc. But it is something that IMO could well happen if the whole RCC thing does turn out to be a real poop-storm.

Scarlet why would the clubs basically cut their nose to spite their faces . The RFU clearly want a better deal in the HC along with the clubs.. Aren't the RFU and the clubs acting together?

Even if the IRB somehow blocks the english and french clubs creating a breakaway tourney, the clubs in england aren't going to go against the RFU surely!!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Not sure i understand what that has got to do with the RWC which england has won. The RFU wants the RWC and of course will allow the IRB to utilize our grounds,

why would we need any other grounds other than wembley, twickenham, the olympic stadium, the millennium anyway

Cough, cough whose stadia.
...

Its the stadium of whoever will pay for it

does anything think a break away is going to happen anyway-. Its surely just posturing for the english and french clubs to get a better deal and stop automatic qualification for lesser clubs..

I'd say usher in a new roster of pro outfits in England and France under the control of the RFU and FFR. No more independent club BS as we have observed that only leads to rows and power struggles with the clubs forever on the lookout to maximise their gains at the expense of others. That is unless you somehow find that attitude appealing and would rather rugby became a replica to football in its format and culture.

Enter the union-sponsored sides together with the Rabo sides and the IRB can sanction it as the legitimate Euro tournament. This will surely tempt a wave of players in from the PRL/LNR sides, who by this point will have no choice but to form their own sport, offer concessions or fade into the mist. The mass-banning of players from the Franglos and the instability that would cause to the sport will thus be avoided.

lostinwales wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Not sure i understand what that has got to do with the RWC which england has won. The RFU wants the RWC and of course will allow the IRB to utilize our grounds,

why would we need any other grounds other than wembley, twickenham, the olympic stadium, the millennium anyway

Cough, cough whose stadia.
...

Its the stadium of whoever will pay for it

So the MS is now an English Stadium, even though it is based in Cardiff?

mystiroakey wrote:Scarlet why would the clubs basically cut their nose to spite their faces . The RFU clearly want a better deal in the HC along with the clubs.. Aren't the RFU and the clubs acting together?

Even if the IRB somehow blocks the english and french clubs creating a breakaway tourney, the clubs in england aren't going to go against the RFU surely!!

I was just looking at worst case scenarios, as lets be honest that is the point of the HEC/RCC threads, whipping up a mass hysteria.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:So the MS is now an English Stadium, even though it is based in Cardiff?

Like most Stadia, the MS is willing to prostitute itself to anyone willing to pay the asking price.

Of course I gues sthat makes Lewis and Pickering pimps

ok i shouldn't have put 'our' grounds should I. Blimey . Everyone understands that the millenium is welsh , but it isn't a club ground and wouldn't have blocked the RFU using it in this 'worst case scenario'

mystiroakey wrote:ok i shouldn't have put 'our' grounds should I. Blimey . Everyone understands that the millenium is welsh , but it isn't a club ground and wouldn't have blocked the RFU using it in this 'worst case scenario'

my commnt saying "cough, cough our" was tongue in cheek boss I know what you meant.


LT - can we get roge the dodge banged up for pimping?

Aye,


anyway. Look there will be no break away, but surely its time for the HC to become higher quality..

Leagues should be ranked like the CL is and the better leagues should have more spots etc, free spots to scotland isnt fair or helping the quality is it?

If the Heineken Cup ends should the English/French club players be ineligable for International rugby?
Of course they are eligible. And will be.

Let the english and french go play between themselves, how about kicking them out of the 6N, replace them. The stadia will still be full without them and we still have the AI's for the SH games. In fact some NH vs SH competition may be started without the 'whinging 2'. When have france and england ever agreed? Only when $$$$$$$ are concerned, they hardly light up the rugby world at present and are full of players from other nations anyway, without them they would be average at best.

Ouch.....

someones narky!

mystiroakey wrote:Ouch.....

someones narky!

Not so much narky as bored to death with elitism and $$$$ trying to dictate rugby. The approach both England and France took in this 'takeover' was bullyboy tactics. What was wrong with inviting other countries around a table to discuss as a first stage? It they do not get agreement on this the European Cup will be what exactly? Oh yeah French teams vs English teams hmmmmm good step forward that will be:whistle: 

stop being so stupid.

its just fairness. if you want to have a pop at a team that has issues with money and whinge and whine and want to take more out of the overall pot then look in to the all blacks..

The money the english and french leagues make is theres, this is about certain teams qualifying through easier channels..

mystiroakey wrote:stop being so stupid.

its just fairness. if you want to have a pop at a team that has issues with money and whinge and whine and want to take more out of the overall pot then look in to the all blacks..

The money the english and french leagues make is theres, this is about certain teams qualifying through easier channels..

No you stop being stupid, stupid.

Why would I want to look at the All Blacks.

Anyway if the bloody English were so good they would win the HC regardless of who else qualifies and that's the argument. Play against each other and don't bother anyone else, rugby will not grind to a stand still in the NH.

Nonsense

mystiroakey wrote:Nonsense

Give me evidence of what you regard as nonsense. The NH missing you or the NH becoming a poorer source of rugby? Doubt that its 3 years since you beat Wales

No your nonsense is nonsense

 

So you don't think your posts are nonsense then?

You truly believe there would be no affect on the other nations leagues if the english and french left?

Are you on a different planet? Have you found a wormhole to communicate with the rest of us?

mystiroakey wrote:So you don't think your posts are nonsense then?

You truly believe there would be no affect on the other nations leagues if the english and french left?

Are you on a different planet? Have you found a wormhole to communicate with the rest of us?

Tell me how captain intelligent

mystiroakey wrote:So you don't think your posts are nonsense then?

You truly believe there would be no affect on the other nations leagues if the english and french left?

Are you on a different planet? Have you found a wormhole to communicate with the rest of us?

Tell me how captain intelligent

you need me to tell you that without european tv money the scottish,welsh and irish leagues would struggle??

mystiroakey wrote:you need me to tell you that without european tv money the scottish,welsh and irish leagues would struggle??

So you telling me that some company would pay for a Frenglish comp minus every other European country....your'e having a laugh ain't ya:yahoo: 

That deal is all ready on the table- sky have offered them bundles..

Any more questions?

its actually BT sport by the way not sky..

off you go then. All the money in the world won't make you a better international team. Possibly the Welsh Irish and Scottish will boycott you internationally with a bit of luck.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10326374/Anglo-French-breakaway-from-Heineken-Cup-takes-huge-step-closer-as-plans-for-Rugby-Champions-Cup-announced.html


ok there is a link.

As you can see the problem is purely qualification which favours the celt sides.

The anglo and french leagues have a deal on the table(bt sport) and will be inviting any team from the other leagues that wants to compete to compete!!

The deal is from BT which is a good thing if it goes ahead. Anything that can help get rid of the Sky monopoly from these shores is a good thing

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I would still give them nothing. Id rather have no tournament than be the one to sign off on the death of NH rugby.

That's pretty much sums up the level of 'discussion' the Pro12 has been willing to engage in so far.

You can discuss the issues as much as you want which is what all parties have been doing but that doesnt mean you have to give in to ridiculous proposals. The balance is already tipped in favour of the English and French clubs. No reason why they should be given an inch more.

The balance is tipped in favour of the English and French!!
Paying them less than half as much per team is an example of things being tipped very much in their favour.
The Franglos having to qualify shows how much things are tipped in their favour.

rainbow-warrior wrote:Let the english and french go play between themselves, how about kicking them out of the 6N, replace them.  The stadia will still be full without them and we still have the AI's for the SH games.  In fact some NH vs SH competition may be started without the 'whinging 2'.  When have france and england ever agreed?  Only when $$$$$$$ are concerned, they hardly light up the rugby world at present and are full of players from other nations anyway, without them they would be average at best.

Who are all the foreigners in the French team?

If you want a team full of foreigners look at Wales many of whom were born in England.

Exiledinborders wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Let the english and french go play between themselves, how about kicking them out of the 6N, replace them.  The stadia will still be full without them and we still have the AI's for the SH games.  In fact some NH vs SH competition may be started without the 'whinging 2'.  When have france and england ever agreed?  Only when $$$$$$$ are concerned, they hardly light up the rugby world at present and are full of players from other nations anyway, without them they would be average at best.

Who are all the foreigners in the French team?

If you want a team full of foreigners look at Wales many of whom were born in England.

You ain't worth arguing with if you think there ain't any foreigners in the French teams. As for international teams as I believe you allude to, been done before pal, all have Welsh parents apart from Cuthbert. George North lives outside Llangefni on Ynys Mon and visits my sisters pub often, Welsh speaker and proud.

Now you should be wondering where the Scottish players are, foreign or not bwhahahaha

I am not sure if people are looking at the future of rugby by wanting to keep the HC as it is. The new euro cup being proposed is based on fair qualification and will allow other european teams into the event as well! It will expand the game..

People that want to allways give celt teams a free pass clearly do not want any expansion whatsoever. Face it lads live in the past and keep rugby a closed shop or move forward - qualify on MERIT

The RFU will eventually back the PRL; why?

1 - they need a competitive England team and the EPS deal is up for renewal soon
2 - All their money is generated from England internationals, without these they would go broke quickly
3 - The PRL clubs do not make money from the HC, dropping it for a couple of seasons would suit England as their players would be fresher, less injuries etc in 2015
4 - The RFU is totally incapable of running a competition like the AP (incapable of tying their shoelaces most of the time), yet one is needed.
5 - they would secretly love to get one back on the other home unions for what they perceive as past slights

The French are another matter, their union is effectively divorced from the clubs and the two do their own thing. The Union did the dirty on he clubs regarding European Rugby CEO and that will not be forgotten.

I do not agree that the French do not care about the HC, look at Toulons efforts to win it.

Again it comes down to money, if the clubs take the long view they can starve the Union of cash, only one possible winner their, I suspect that for all their bluster the Union will cave in and back the clubs, if not this year, next

Exiledinborders wrote: The balance is tipped in favour of the English and French!!
Paying them less than half as much per team is an example of things being tipped very much in their favour.
The Franglos having to qualify shows how much things are tipped in their favour.

Yes the English and French get more money from the HC than the other competing nations
The less than 1/2 the money argument is factually incorrect as far as the Irish are concerned (who are the one who regualarly get better HC results than the English). The Union put much of the money into the wider game - it does not all go to the Provinces

The Welsh and Irish do have to qualify - anyway that is not the issue 8 places with 1 guaranteed from each of the 4 nations would be acceptable

so you agree it needs to change then Geoff??