Let's get a neutral view from the southern hemisphere then....

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:19 pm

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/9189341/De-Barra-NZ-rugby-not-safe-from-Euro-revolt

by **LondonTiger** Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:23 pm

That was about as neutral as General Franco

by madmaccas Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:28 pm

It's spot on. This whole thing has been a sham from the start.

First it was qualifying money (we want more), then they changed their argument to it being a meritocracy (strangely no salary cap for the French though!), finally they've revealed their true hand - it's about the clubs taking control of the game from the unions. Back to the age old club vs country.

I would rather the game returned to amateur status in the Scotland/Wales/Ireland than see it go down this path of football style club supremacy.

by Standulstermen Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:32 pm

Always liked the kiwis Hug

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:48 pm

Frankly I am amazed that the PRL have managed to pull the wool over the eyes of normally decent and fair English Rugby fans.

OK the Kiwis have a bit of a chip on their shoulders about their former collonial masters, not unlike us Irish used to. (ok still do but to a much lesser extent)

But they fear for their own game on the basis of this power grab from the club.

by Poorfour Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:53 pm

I think you might be confusing "neutral" with "staggeringly ill-informed" there. For instance, the article claims that the PRL and LNR have turned down the opportunity to negotiate a solution - when that's what they asked for repeatedly over the last 3 years - and strongly suggests that the Pro 12 have offered a "6 teams to qualify" approach, which I've never seen mentioned anywhere else as having been offered.

Always check your sources' credibility, as your history teachers should have taught you, or you run the risk of undermining your own.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:55 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Frankly I am amazed that the PRL have managed to pull the wool over the eyes of normally decent and fair English Rugby fans.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:00 pm

To be honest it read like a fair few posts that I have seen on here over the past week or so. That said I agree with some of it, especially about how the 'issues' with the ERC have changed a few times over the course of the arguement. However it was not exactly a neutral peice, as it was quite keen on pointing out that it could impact the SH nations.

Just think of it from a NZ point of view. First off there will be more money in the Jeff/T14 to poach almost All Blacks (lads who are just hoping for an injury to someone else so they can get their chance, Fotuali'i or Nacawa for example) or just internationally retired All Blacks, which would possibly have a knock on effect for passing on skills and strength in depth. But also it seems they are frightened that it could end up with the Saffers breaking away from Superrugby to join up with the Franglos, which would then lead to more players considering the north a better enviroment, with top players etc.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:02 pm

Poorfour wrote:I think you might be confusing "neutral" with "staggeringly ill-informed" there. For instance, the article claims that the PRL and LNR have turned down the opportunity to negotiate a solution - when that's what they asked for repeatedly over the last 3 years - and strongly suggests that the Pro 12 have offered a "6 teams to qualify" approach, which I've never seen mentioned anywhere else as having been offered.

Always check your sources' credibility, as your history teachers should have taught you, or you run the risk of undermining your own.

That's exactly the point. The prl have shot their gobs off in the meija for the last 18 months "saying" that the unions wouldn't negiotiate. While the unions said feck all, prefering to negiotiate outside of the meija.

Have you a "non prl" source that can confirm? Thought not.

There is of course blame on all sides. I just know who I would trust to have "the good of the game" at heart.

by madmaccas Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:04 pm

Poorfour wrote:I think you might be confusing "neutral" with "staggeringly ill-informed" there. For instance, the article claims that the PRL and LNR have turned down the opportunity to negotiate a solution - when that's what they asked for repeatedly over the last 3 years - and strongly suggests that the Pro 12 have offered a "6 teams to qualify" approach, which I've never seen mentioned anywhere else as having been offered.

Always check your sources' credibility, as your history teachers should have taught you, or you run the risk of undermining your own.

We don't know the inner workings of those negotiations, only what we've heard from the 2/6 different sides. However, the moment PRL signed the deal with BT Sport they knew there would be no further realistic negotiations about rescuing the Heineken Cup, how could there be, they had signed a deal with Sky that involved PRL reps! They would be in breach of contract if they continued with ERC and Sky - which shows that it was done intentionally and the past year has been spent preparing the ground for this coup over the unions.

The more time goes goes on the clearer it becomes that this has all be meticulously planned by the PRL, negotiations were never an option, they wanted to run the game and this drawn out charade has allowed them to do just that.

by maestegmafia Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:22 pm

The biggest irony is that the lack of promotion relegation and automatic selection have been targeted by the LNR and more so PRL as main reasons for change, where as if they do try and start their Franglo concept they will likely ring fence that league as the PRL and LNR do not represent all the teams in those nations.

They will also struggle to encourage other Europeans to join their concept when their teams, Regional/Provincial and so forth are heavily governed or even part of their national unions and not fully privately owned businesses.

by Portnoy's Complaint Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:30 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Always liked the kiwis

Except like so many loose-lipped journos, they gabble on before their pens start scribbling and their brains and edjercashun are engaged.

Fancy that a Munster that a Munster fan from the photo archive being attached to an article referring to Conquistadors. All looks like a Spanish Inquisition to me.

Shane Debarra (he'd better look at his ancestry) wrote:In place of taking a measured approach and looking for a negotiated path forward, they've decided to throw their toys out of the pram from the off.

Maybe they've calculated the relative values of the toys and the pram.

All points to what a threat a Franglo/$affer alliance would be.

Still, Please don't blame me for the pro game to be gravitating towards the money.

by maestegmafia Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:43 pm

The article reflects the fears of everyone in the rugby world and our amazement at those who are conditioning their opinions to align with what is possible as being an inevitable and wonderful thing.

by Cyril Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:45 pm

maestegmafia wrote:The article reflects the fears of everyone in the rugby world and our amazement at those who are conditioning their opinions to align with what is possible as being an inevitable and wonderful thing.

That sounds like something that used to come out of AWOP's dodgy translation filter. You just need to add 'combinator' for the full effect.

by **Notch** Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:00 pm

Spot on from the Kiwis. Philip Browne on record as saying qualification and distribution of money can be negotiated- its the issue of control and the broader issue of clubs vs unions that is the sticking point.

http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2013/0919/20440708-french-and-english-rugby-clubs-threaten-future-of-european-competition/

Do I agree with Jen and As that the wool has been pulled over the English fans eyes? Yes. Most of you are arguing about red herrings like qualification etc. That debate has been framed by the PRL, but it's not the real debate. We can do a deal on those things. The point is they want control of the game. They've abandoned the ERC, they realistically abandoned it as soon as they signed the deal with BT Sport. Which they refuse to share the details of.

Let's not be naive enough to pretend this schism is due to qualification or meritocracy. It's a coup.

by nathan Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:09 pm

neutral my ass

by Poorfour Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:56 pm

...and what we Brits tend to call the Indian Mutiny, the Indians now refer to as the 1st War of Independence.

Seems to me pretty naive to believe that all four Pro12 nations, and the ERC, have been willing to negotiate all this time but have never taken the trouble to correct the PRL or LNR when they've publicly said otherwise. It's either very principled or very poor PR.

It's also not inconsistent that the PRL and LNR have wanted several changes from the outset but that not all of them have been reported all the time. This has been about governance since Lux was elected, if not before.

You can call it a coup if you like, but in that case I shall call it a glorious revolution to overthrow a corrupt and oppressive regime. Either view has about the same level of basis in fact. Or we could be grown up about it and call it a commercial negotiation.

I like to think that the PRL and LNR are not so stupid as to set up a tournament in which only they have control; there's been nothing to suggest that's what they're doing - they've only said it should be a club-governed competition, which doesn't rule out all clubs having a say. Not to do so would just invite this whole thing to start all over again in a couple of years' time when the Pro12 teams get fed up of being in the position that the PRL and LNR teams are in now.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:01 am

Poorfour wrote:...and what we Brits tend to call the Indian Mutiny, the Indians now refer to as the 1st War of Independence.

Jaysis. you are doing yourself no favours with that one.

by butterfingers Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:13 am

Sadly I am one English fan who has seen this coming for years.

The PRL chooses it's battles, it sets it's own boundaries, and executes with 1 simple thing in mind - The success of the PRL.

It has at no point considered how this will effect the RFU, and why should it, it has battled with the RFU and has the RFU's number! The RFU has near lost control of the game in England, as the FFR has lost control in France.

France are 2/3 years ahead of England at present, we will see English clubs get richer and stronger and the national team deteriorate into wooden spoon contenders!

I don't understand other English fans who wish this coup to happen, unless they care little for the national game!

by ScarletSpiderman Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:15 am

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Poorfour wrote:...and what we Brits tend to call the Indian Mutiny, the Indians now refer to as the 1st War of Independence.
Jaysis. you are doing yourself no favours with that one.

+1 to that.

by **profitius** Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:20 am

To be fair it wasn't a neutral point of view. The Kiwis could be effected too by this.

by MrsP Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:25 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Frankly I am amazed that the PRL have managed to pull the wool over the eyes of normally decent and fair English Rugby fans.

by butterfingers Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:26 am

profitius wrote:To be fair it wasn't a neutral point of view. The Kiwis could be effected too by this.

I can't imagine any governing body not being worried by this, if this coup works we will see copy cats around the globe, generally looking to earn the big bucks for themselves.

This is why I don't understand support for this type of deal, it hasn't been handled in any way but hostile from the start, which was probably the day Mcshister took the job.

The RFU and sport of rugby in England is nothing but a vessel in which to make money, if it is rinsed to it's max and left for dead then the forces behind this will just move onto the next employer willing to throw the money at them!

by ScarletSpiderman Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:32 am

butterfingers wrote:
profitius wrote:To be fair it wasn't a neutral point of view. The Kiwis could be effected too by this.
I can't imagine any governing body not being worried by this, if this coup works we will see copy cats around the globe, generally looking to earn the big bucks for themselves.

This is why I don't understand support for this type of deal, it hasn't been handled in any way but hostile from the start, which was probably the day Mcshister took the job.

The RFU and sport of rugby in England is nothing but a vessel in which to make money, if it is rinsed to it's max and left for dead then the forces behind this will just move onto the next employer willing to throw the money at them!

I am not too sure we would see copy-cat actions. The Rabo sides are ran by unions (or owned by unions etc), and I believe that the Superrugby sides are all union owned/ran franchises so who would be left to do a copy-cat action?

by whocares Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:32 am

The problem lies with those pesky old Conquistadors, the English and the French.

neutral ?

by nathan Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:36 am

butterfingers wrote:Sadly I am one English fan who has seen this coming for years.

The PRL chooses it's battles, it sets it's own boundaries, and executes with 1 simple thing in mind - The success of the PRL.

It has at no point considered how this will effect the RFU, and why should it, it has battled with the RFU and has the RFU's number! The RFU has near lost control of the game in England, as the FFR has lost control in France.

France are 2/3 years ahead of England at present, we will see English clubs get richer and stronger and the national team deteriorate into wooden spoon contenders!

I don't understand other English fans who wish this coup to happen, unless they care little for the national game!

So what are you trying to saying, all the other organisations are set up for the benifit of others?

Of course they are not, just as the PRL will look after there own interests so will the others. This is what gets me in this whole debate, some fans seem to think there unions are all about the "good of the game".

I will tell you now, Love sacks!!

Each and everyone has only there own interests at the top of their priorities. All parties are stake holders in this compeitions and there all at fault for not coming to an agreement. Theyv'e had plenty of time to sort it.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:37 am

In fairness the guy who wrote it is a corksucker.......eh.....sorry. person from Cork Smile

I threw it up because while it may not be so neutral, it highlights the fact that the rugby world needs to be afraid.....very afraid.

by butterfingers Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:38 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
butterfingers wrote:
profitius wrote:To be fair it wasn't a neutral point of view. The Kiwis could be effected too by this.
I can't imagine any governing body not being worried by this, if this coup works we will see copy cats around the globe, generally looking to earn the big bucks for themselves.

This is why I don't understand support for this type of deal, it hasn't been handled in any way but hostile from the start, which was probably the day Mcshister took the job.

The RFU and sport of rugby in England is nothing but a vessel in which to make money, if it is rinsed to it's max and left for dead then the forces behind this will just move onto the next employer willing to throw the money at them!
I am not too sure we would see copy-cat actions. The Rabo sides are ran by unions (or owned by unions etc), and I believe that the Superrugby sides are all union owned/ran franchises so who would be left to do a copy-cat action?

I thought the Welsh sides were owned privately? And the debate of selling Franchises down south has been going on for years hasn't it?

There are always ways, this time 2 years ago we wouldn't have been talking about the PRL signing an agreement with another media stream that didn't exist, and an agreement to which they didn't have rights.

by nathan Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:39 am

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:In fairness the guy who wrote it is a corksucker.......eh.....sorry. person from Cork

I threw it up because while it may not be so neutral, it highlights the fact that the rugby world needs to be afraid.....very afraid.

Looking at your thread title

picard

by butterfingers Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:43 am

nathan wrote:
butterfingers wrote:Sadly I am one English fan who has seen this coming for years.

The PRL chooses it's battles, it sets it's own boundaries, and executes with 1 simple thing in mind - The success of the PRL.

It has at no point considered how this will effect the RFU, and why should it, it has battled with the RFU and has the RFU's number! The RFU has near lost control of the game in England, as the FFR has lost control in France.

France are 2/3 years ahead of England at present, we will see English clubs get richer and stronger and the national team deteriorate into wooden spoon contenders!

I don't understand other English fans who wish this coup to happen, unless they care little for the national game!
So what are you trying to saying, all the other organisations are set up for the benifit of others?

Of course they are not, just as the PRL will look after there own interests so will the others. This is what gets me in this whole debate, some fans seem to think there unions are all about the "good of the game".

I will tell you now, Love sacks!!

Each and everyone has only there own interests at the top of their priorities. All parties are stake holders in this compeitions and there all at fault for not coming to an agreement. Theyv'e had plenty of time to sort it.

Theres looking after your own organisation, and then theres lining your pockets with the proceeds of the detriment to the game, and fanbase! That isn't looking after yourself, thats selling the game out, for personal gain!

I as a Glos and England fan will have my club experience, and international experience effected so the PRL can own outright a tournament they can control and dictate! I will no longer enjoy traveling to Wales, Ireland and Scotland to follow my club, nations that are so rich in culture, and add to the game just as much as England or France, just so the PRL can line their pockets.

I AS AN ENGLISH PREMIERSHIP AND INTERNATIONAL FAN AM BEING HELD TO RANSOM JUST AS MUCH AS ANY CELT OR ITALIAN!

by ScarletSpiderman Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:44 am

Nathan - I think you are misunderstanding what people are trying to get at. Nobody does anything in with world without wanting something from it. However I would say that of the two, a union would be more likely to look after the game in the whole nation than a group of top teams would be. Therefore the Unions, whilst not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts or without gaining for themselves, are more likely to be interested in keeping grass route village and community teams going that the PRL would. Which is more 'for the good of the game' than the PRL who more or less say public we want money for our clubs and hump anyone else.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:45 am

There is fault on all sides.

The prl and the Lnr are not for "the good of the game" BY DEFINITION though.

They are ONLY interested in club rugby in England and France respectively.

That is fine. that is their function. But their actions will have a major impact on thegame in the whole world.

I know the erc are a bit of a cosy cartel, and that they are not buisnessmen at the level of some of the prl people. I would love to see the prl go out and negiotate deals on behalf of the erc that would bring in more money.

I just don't want them to have total control. and if there can't be co operation and someone HAS to have control. I would rather that was the erc, or some replacement body that is run by unions as well as clubs.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:46 am

nathan wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:In fairness the guy who wrote it is a corksucker.......eh.....sorry. person from Cork

I threw it up because while it may not be so neutral, it highlights the fact that the rugby world needs to be afraid.....very afraid.
Looking at your thread title

Should I have added a smiley? picard

by **Notch** Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:54 am

nathan wrote:So what are you trying to saying, all the other organisations are set up for the benifit of others?

Of course they are not, just as the PRL will look after there own interests so will the others. This is what gets me in this whole debate, some fans seem to think there unions are all about the "good of the game".

The point is that the PRL are concerned with the good of the professional club game, the Unions are concerned with every level from grassroots, school, age-grade rugby right through to the professional game at Pro12/HC level and the international game.

It's a very delicate ecosystem and we have to make sure any new settlement doesn't adversely affect the other levels of the game. The PRL/LNR are not concerned about that by definition. It's not that the Unions are designed to benefit others, they are set-up to benefit everyone who plays rugby in their country from amateur to international.

by Poorfour Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:06 am

Notch wrote:
nathan wrote:So what are you trying to saying, all the other organisations are set up for the benifit of others?

Of course they are not, just as the PRL will look after there own interests so will the others. This is what gets me in this whole debate, some fans seem to think there unions are all about the "good of the game".
The point is that the PRL are concerned with the good of the professional club game, the Unions are concerned with every level from grassroots, school, age-grade rugby right through to the professional game at Pro12/HC level and the international game.

It's a very delicate ecosystem and we have to make sure any new settlement doesn't adversely affect the other levels of the game. The PRL/LNR are not concerned about that by definition. It's not that the Unions are designed to benefit others, they are set-up to benefit everyone who plays rugby in their country from amateur to international.

I've heard this argument a lot, and after due consideration I've concluded that it's utter nonsense. A competition like the HEC has no direct effect on any level of rugby other than the level of the teams that play in it and International level (because the same pool of players are involved at both levels). Indirectly, money from the tournament may benefit grassroots and other levels.

But that's not a good enough reason to say that the one group of stakeholders who are most affected by the tournament - the teams who play in it and bear most of the cost of being in it - should have a limited say in its running. The IRB already provides a safeguard against any club tournament having a negative impact on the game by requiring the unions or IRB to approve it. The relevant unions can refuse to sanction a tournament that would impose excessive game time on players and could demand that a proportion of the revenue be funneled back into grass roots games. The unions can impose constraints for the good of the game, but within those constraints there's no reason why the clubs should not have the primary say in how the tournament runs.

If you are saying that those powers are not enough, then that effectively means the clubs already have enough power to dictate terms to the unions. Which is a whole other problem and, given the concerns you've already outlined, the game is already doomed.

by tigerleghorn Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:03 am

whocares wrote:
The problem lies with those pesky old Conquistadors, the English and the French.
neutral ?

The Journo Shane de Barra isn't a Kiwi and also writes for The Scotsman......neutral?

by Cyril Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:22 am

Ah, he's Irish Laugh

by HammerofThunor Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:31 am

I'm pretty sure I've read that the IRFU give the Provinces something like €20M per year from the international rugby pot. This is on top of all the monies generated by the provinces, including competition fees and TV, etc.

If this is true, any suggestion that the money raised by the ERC funds grass roots is bull Poopie. It does, however, draw interest that helps the grass roots.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:20 am

Cyril wrote:Ah, he's Irish

You're only getting that one now? Check out the big brain on Cyril

by hawalsh Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:57 am

butterfingers wrote:
nathan wrote:
butterfingers wrote:Sadly I am one English fan who has seen this coming for years.

The PRL chooses it's battles, it sets it's own boundaries, and executes with 1 simple thing in mind - The success of the PRL.

It has at no point considered how this will effect the RFU, and why should it, it has battled with the RFU and has the RFU's number! The RFU has near lost control of the game in England, as the FFR has lost control in France.

France are 2/3 years ahead of England at present, we will see English clubs get richer and stronger and the national team deteriorate into wooden spoon contenders!

I don't understand other English fans who wish this coup to happen, unless they care little for the national game!
So what are you trying to saying, all the other organisations are set up for the benifit of others?

Of course they are not, just as the PRL will look after there own interests so will the others. This is what gets me in this whole debate, some fans seem to think there unions are all about the "good of the game".

I will tell you now, Love sacks!!

Each and everyone has only there own interests at the top of their priorities. All parties are stake holders in this compeitions and there all at fault for not coming to an agreement. Theyv'e had plenty of time to sort it.
Theres looking after your own organisation, and then theres lining your pockets with the proceeds of the detriment to the game, and fanbase! That isn't looking after yourself, thats selling the game out, for personal gain!

I as a Glos and England fan will have my club experience, and international experience effected so the PRL can own outright a tournament they can control and dictate! I will no longer enjoy traveling to Wales, Ireland and Scotland to follow my club, nations that are so rich in culture, and add to the game just as much as England or France, just so the PRL can line their pockets.

I AS AN ENGLISH PREMIERSHIP AND INTERNATIONAL FAN AM BEING HELD TO RANSOM JUST AS MUCH AS ANY CELT OR ITALIAN!

Still waiting to see that first post on a Gloucester (or England for that matter) thread bl...utterfingers!

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