Manu Tuilagi out for weeks - possibly months

After picking up a chest injury against Newcastle says Richard Cockerill.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24227986

Bad news for the Tigers but potentially great for Lancaster and England to test new partnerships (as it's still only 2013).

Not great at all. He needs as much gametime as possible to hone his huge talent.

massive loss for club and country. Time for George Lowe to step up....

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:After picking up a chest injury against Newcastle says Richard Cockerill.

More news as it comes in.

Bad news for the Tigers but potentially great for Lancaster and England to test new partnerships (as it's still only 2013).

But there isnt anyone else like Manu. The best English center in my life time so far has I think been Will Greenwood, but I fully expect Manu to take his place in time. It won't happen if he's constantly injured.

FECCCKKK.

yappysnap wrote:Not great at all. He needs as much gametime as possible to hone his huge talent.

massive loss for club and country. Time for George Lowe to step up....

I have to disagree, yapp. The offensive area of England's game plan still needs a drains-up.

Look at how well England seconds performed against Argentina seconds in the summer.

There's loads of room for improvement in this Albion's new Golden Generation.

I'd expect Manu to be back but alternative game plans need to be explored.

What must not happen is to p!ss this opportunity up the wall like the footballers did with their Beckham Golden Generation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24227986

It's Trinder time.

Together with the loss of Barritt it does look like Lancaster will have to try a different approach involving a bit more guile.

12 Twelvetrees
13 Tomkins / Lowe?

Joseph hasnt done much, Tridner likewise...Lowe for me is a key player in the quins lineup...and could be a valuable option for England.

And Tomkins is playing in a winning side...offers strength and a great offloading game that could be a blessing for Ashton, Yarde and Foden to play off...

Although Ashton has been getting great press for his form and improving defence, I still can't see Ford snr unleashing his true potential. Andy wants to treat his players like the French Education Department want to know what page of each book the kids will be on any given day.

Andy won't free talent even if it's abundant.

Ashton has been getting great press for his improving defense ? Where ?

He's been his usual ineffective self from the last two games I watched

Injuries are sometimes blessings in disguise as it allows coaches to test out other options but its a huge loss initially.

Who are the likely candidates at this early time in the season?

With Barritt out too (and Eastmond I guess - I havnt heard much in the last few days) I would have thought the most likely center combo would be 36/ Tomkins or 36/ Joseph

Other center options in the Saxons - Lowe Daly and Allen

36 and JJ...something from Bath I guess ?

When is Toby Flood going to be back?

Played last Saturday against Falcons

Eastmond shouldn't be out too long.

12. Eastmond
13. Twelvetrees

munkian wrote:Ashton has been getting great press for his improving defense ? Where ?

He's been his usual ineffective self from the last two games I watched

You didn't see the Bath game then? He had an excellent all-round game (especially 1st half).

I've not seen his other games.

Gutted that Tuilagi is out. While it's a good opportunity to try out another option I just feel better with him in the side.

If Ashton knuckles down and discover his early England form then he will figure many times again and still has plenty more to offer England.

It's bad news, but to be honest, I've been really disappointed by how little Manu seems to have developed his game. His passing, kicking, awareness, positioning...how much have we seen it improved? Yes he can run over people like few others can, but at international level? Not really, certainly not against bigger centres.

Trinder, defensively, could get found out. But as an attacking threat he could be excellent. If it forces us to not simple ask Tuilagi to bash it up it may be a blessing in disguise.

GeordieFalcon wrote:12 Twelvetrees
13 Tomkins / Lowe?

Joseph hasnt done much, Tridner likewise...Lowe for me is a key player in the quins lineup...and could be a valuable option for England.

And Tomkins is playing in a winning side...offers strength and a great offloading game that could be a blessing for Ashton, Yarde and Foden to play off...

Have to say, Lowe and Tomkins don't offer much for me. Both middling players. Trinder is defensively more of a problem, but a far better attacker. Tomkins offloading game I think is perhaps the most overrated aspect of any players game I know. I just don't see it. What do the stats say for him, what am i missing? I'd also rather have JJ above both of those two.

Has JJ found any form at Bath yet? Cause he look Frak awful most of last season

IIRC in his last few England outings Manu seemed to be mainly an extra ruck clearer and ball carrier in close. We have no one who can do that and honestly we don't want our 13 doing that primarily anyway!

Options are:
Joseph - Potentially next in line after the SA tour and he's in the EPS but actually terrible for his club last season and I don't think he's played well for Bath yet...

Tomkins - Very physical and should front up well, but question marks over pace, positioning and skills. He is in a winning team at the moment though and knows Farrel.

Lowe - Solid defender and solid attacker, can distribute well and plays for one of the most expansive clubs. Not in his best form at the moment and not in the EPS.

Trinder - Mercurial attacker, potentially flimsy defender, injury prone and not the biggest. But he's been in very good form for Glos and is probably the "form" player at 13. Again not in the EPS.

Any news on Mathew Tait's fitness? He's surely an outside bet if he gets some games.

He's secured as a FB now isn't he?

I don't think any of the 13s touted are in good enough form to warrant selection. Twelvetrees at 13 is a viable option and he has played there before and is in good form. It would also allow us to deploy Eastmond at 12 (if fit) and give is an extremely creative centre partnership to counter balance the conservative Farrell who will certainly play 10. That could be great and allows an interchangeable midfield all of whom can kick, pass and carry (albeit to different degrees). A shoot out between the two centres who would be the long term 12.

Tait is unlikely to play 13 for Tigers and is currently recovering from his summer knee surgery. Should be back in a couple of weeks (I think).

Rugby Fan wrote:Any news on Mathew Tait's fitness? He's surely an outside bet if he gets some games.

I understand that he is back into full contact training. Not sure how they will look at phasing him back into the team however. As he will be playing FB, he will not be an option for England at 13.

If you do go Farrell Eastmond 36 you have Farrell's tackling too. Interesting combo.

Manu - it drives me crazy seeing him going into rucks all the time. He is only going to do damage if he is given the ball and a little space. That doesnt happen there but might nearby.

Unfortunately I think he has also either been carrying one injury or another, or not quite top form for quite a while now, but anyone who can do what he did vs NZ is a very special player.

What' the big worry about?
England have 12 teams to choose from,they play in the toughest league in the word they have to many world class centres to choose from.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:What' the big worry about?
England have 12 teams to choose from,they play in the toughest league in the word they have to many world class centres to choose from.

That is the issue! Too much choice and too much talent!  

If we lacked talented options this debate would be substantially shorter.

Trinder was 3rd in Gloucester's tackle count v Saints with 5, hardly flimsy. Massively improved in defence and seemingly even better in attack.

I think it would be a surprise if they went outside of the EPS/Saxons for a replacement center while there is plenty of choice within it.

lostinwales wrote:I think it would be a surprise if they went outside of the EPS/Saxons for a replacement center while there is plenty of choice within it.

Not impossible, but yes very unlikely.

I'd expect Bomber to do what Johnno used to do - watch the form of players in the run up and then promote the best candidate into the EPS just before training camp. That could include promoting someone to the Saxons and then the full EPS.

Does anyone know how far Daly is from returning to fitness as looked a quality option last season and if he's back soon could still stake a claim with some good form, witht eh added bonus he's already in the Saxons squad. If not Trinder could be the next best, not quite got the defence that Lowe offers but in attack can be very destructive with his pace.

I think 12trees should really be given the 12 shirt even though with manu out he could easily slot into 13, I just think we have found our answers to the 12 shirt and need to give him week in and out rugby at 12. At 13 Daly is a great great shout this kid is pure class, however time is running out to prove form and fitness, chances are we will see Twelvetrees, Joseph with Eastmond on the bench.

Poorfour wrote:I'd expect Bomber to do what Johnno used to do - watch the form of players in the run up and then promote the best candidate into the EPS just before training camp. That could include promoting someone to the Saxons and then the full EPS.

Didn't MJ just used to pick his old mates ?

Yes he did, munk. Ashton and Manu were old playing colleagues from 2003. His real old mates (save Jonny) however cost him his job - notably HRH Mike who should have been sent home and probably Moods who abrogated his responsibility as team skipper in not controlling his team-mates.

England have certainly not measurably improved under Lancaster apart from the AB win.

munkian wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'd expect Bomber to do what Johnno used to do - watch the form of players in the run up and then promote the best candidate into the EPS just before training camp. That could include promoting someone to the Saxons and then the full EPS.

Didn't MJ just used to pick his old mates ?

Johnno gave 29 players their england debut - rather a lot:

Armitage D, Armitage S, Ashton, Attwood, Banahan, Botha, Cole, Corbisiero, Crane, Doran-Jones, Erinle, Flutey, Foden, Fourie, Hape, Hartley, Kennedy, Lawes, May, Monye, Mullan, Robshaw, Sharples, Simpson, Tuilagi, Vesty, Wilson, Wood, Youngs B

LondonTiger wrote:

munkian wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'd expect Bomber to do what Johnno used to do - watch the form of players in the run up and then promote the best candidate into the EPS just before training camp. That could include promoting someone to the Saxons and then the full EPS.

Didn't MJ just used to pick his old mates ?

Johnno gave 29 players their england debut - rather a lot:

Armitage D, Armitage S, Ashton, Attwood, Banahan, Botha, Cole, Corbisiero, Crane, Doran-Jones, Erinle, Flutey, Foden, Fourie, Hape, Hartley, Kennedy, Lawes, May, Monye, Mullan, Robshaw, Sharples, Simpson, Tuilagi, Vesty, Wilson, Wood, Youngs B

Sadly, when the chips were down he trusted his old team mates rather than picking on form. Shame, because some of those who were underutilised have gone on to show real potential. And, erm, have a great record against the French.

His old mates being Thompson, Moody and Tindall? Moody and Thompson were quality and should have been there the only one of his mates who wasn't up to the job was Tinds. Johnno upgraded large parts of the team during his tenure despite the media demanding he perform nothing short of miracles and bring back 2003.

I'm a huge fan of Moody, but he was well past his best in RWC 2011. I think, had Johnno gone with form and picked Wood more consistently, it might have been enough to make a difference.

According to the post-mortem review, Wood and Robshaw were the standout players in the pre-tournament training camp and many of the squad were astonished that he hardly used one and didn't even take the other.

I'll agree with you on Tinds and Thompson, though. And that Johnno did a lot of good - but I think his confidence was shaken by the loss in Ireland and he let the team as a whole - and his selections - slip back to conservatism and away from the great gameplan they were developing.

Poorfour wrote: And that Johnno did a lot of good - but I think his confidence was shaken by the loss in Ireland and he let the team as a whole - and his selections - slip back to conservatism and away from the great gameplan they were developing.

Agreed.

I'd argue that Moody still had plenty of life in him but his fitness was not 100% given his injury issues at the time.

Agree completely that the Irish game knocked his confidence ahead of the RWC and the selection of Wilkinson over Flood personified that conservatism.

Moody was epic on that Australia tour when he came back from injury and lead us to the win after the close loss. He was still playing well in the AI's but after that you could literally see time and all the injuries slowing him down. Johnno over played him and relied on him too much even though as Poorfour mentions Robshaw and Wood are repeatedly cited as being the two out standing players in Englands pre RWC training camp.

Thompson as well was very good off the bench but still had horrible times at the lineout for someone of his experience and made idiotic decisions. As an old head he wasn't reliable enough but after Hartley we literally had no one.

Tins was another who made a great positive impact when he first came back in to the side but after that the injuries and speed of the game made him less and less effective. Not to mention the alcohol...

Looking through that list though the real shockers are Botha, Fourie, Erinle, Hape and Vesty. At lest Lancaster hasn't chosen any average journeymen like that lot (although Barritt might be one).

The PM after the defeat to Ireland highlighted a lack of experience/leadership. MJ over-reacted in that regard. Mike Tindall then really let Johnson down. I have no issue with members of the team going to that bar - after all the Irish team had also done so - but Tindall lied to MJ about how late he was out etc.

We had a real lack of a decent midfield - Flutey was introduced by MJ and did well enough to be capped by the Lions, but he was then injured after that. I have previously produced a list of all the players to have appeared at centre for England since Will Greenwood retired. It is a really long list, and depressing in the lack of quality. The centres chosen Hape, Banahan, Tindall & Manu (who made his debut v Wales in the warmup win) were certainly not full of guile....but.....there really was not much else available at the time.

yappysnap wrote:
Looking through that list though the real shockers are Botha, Fourie, Erinle, Hape and Vesty. At lest Lancaster hasn't chosen any average journeymen like that lot (although Barritt might be one).

Mouritz Botha:

1 cap under MJ as a replacement in a WC warmup match.
9 caps under SL (7 starts)