Building The Perfect Tennis Player - Part 2 - Best Forehand

by Guest Wed 02 Oct 2013, 10:26 am

Here we are folks. The vote is here and get them in for what I think is the more insteresting of the categories.

by erictheblueuk Wed 02 Oct 2013, 4:45 pm

Do you want to know who the top players think has the best forehand:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYC-SXq9w3k

by kingraf Wed 02 Oct 2013, 5:20 pm

Verdasco to show why hes forehand deserves to be here for a few games before the inevitable occurs

by novak143 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 7:07 am

How can you ignore the most effective forehands of all. Agreed, it may not be the most graceful (Fed takes that honor), but it is really devastating, when Novak is in full flow. His signature cross-court FH that lands in the service box for a winner is the most difficult to execute and he does that consistently.

by HM Murdock Thu 03 Oct 2013, 8:33 am

We have a new Novak fan! I was starting to feel lonely since Socal appears to have gone dark.

by novak143 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 8:55 am

I am a huge, huge fan of Novak. But I could not forgive him for losing US open'13, for many days, since he dictated play against Nadal for a good 60% of that match.

by Haddie-nuff Thu 03 Oct 2013, 9:33 am

kingraf wrote:Verdasco to show why hes forehand deserves to be here for a few games before the inevitable occurs

And he is showing today why he should be up there with the forehanders... Forehando Verdasco is using it to great effect against the No.1. Go it Nando

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 03 Oct 2013, 9:42 am

HM Murdoch wrote:We have a new Novak fan! I was starting to feel lonely since Socal appears to have gone dark.

We need Fed to start winning again, Fed fans will then get excited and then socal will reappear to cast him/them down Smile

Welcome to novak143.

by Guest Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:09 am

Djokovic doesn't belong anywhere near a greatest FH debate.

Federer wins this one easily. I think people are too influenced by the declining Federer FH of recent years (which up till this year was probably still the best On tour).

Peak Federer had the most beautiful and destructive FH ever seen and, yes, it was also insanely consistent. In around 05-06 Fed could play a whole match with just a dozen UE's in total off both wings.

The video posted by Eric asking the players about the best FH was done in 2012/13 asking about that particular point in time. Historically speaking I don't see anyone bettering Federer.

by Guest Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:17 am

In fact only on this forum, where there is now a dearth of posters, could this vote even be close.

I've seen the same debate (the greatest FH of all time, not currently) On many other forums and Federer always runs away with it.

by Born Slippy Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:11 am

I am bemused why Djokovic is being mentioned in this debate. His forehand is decent but its a realtive weakness given his status in the game.

Personally, I would say that Nadal's forehand is the best for current conditions, string tech etc. However, Federer's forehand and Gonzo's would be devastating in any era.

by novak143 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:49 pm

Though I am a Novak fan, I do admit that Fed has probably the best FH of all time. But I do not understand, why Nadal's Forehand is considered superior to Novak's by many people.

In most of the matches between them (the classic Rome'09 SF, AO'11 and '12, FO 12' and '13, USO'11 and '13), you can notice how Novak dominates the rallies by using his FH so effectively. Novak lost more of these matches which is truly a tribute to Nadal's superior mental strength and not due to FH superiority. Agreed, Nadal has more rpm's on the ball. But what about placement, consistency, angles, power. In all this Novak has an upper hand.

The two shots which come to my mind to illustrate the point are:
a. The way Novak mercilessly attacks Nadal's 2nd serve for a winner at will
b. The way a high bouncing ball to Novak's ad court is hit Down the Line for a winner.
It is an irony that their H2H is so lopsided given all these travesties of truth. If only Novak develops half the mental strength that Nadal has, his grand-slam count would have been closer to double digits by now.

by LuvSports! Thu 03 Oct 2013, 1:04 pm

oh goodie some spice from a new novak poster! Very Happy

by Guest Thu 03 Oct 2013, 1:21 pm

Depends on what you want really. Nadals current forehand is up there with the best, Federers had more flare, but Nadals has brutal consistency, even in his heryday, you felt you could make Federer miss on his fh wing if you persevered, Nadals doesnt. Feds is the better hc fh probably though.

Novaks fh sufferes from being the "weaker" wing, good angles, not as intimidating as Fedal somehow though. His bh on the other hand is a GOAT bh contender

by hawkeye Thu 03 Oct 2013, 1:31 pm

novak143 wrote:Though I am a Novak fan, I do admit that Fed has probably the best FH of all time. But I do not understand, why Nadal's Forehand is considered superior to Novak's by many people.

In most of the matches between them (the classic Rome'09 SF, AO'11 and '12, FO 12' and '13, USO'11 and '13), you can notice how Novak dominates the rallies by using his FH so effectively. Novak lost more of these matches which is truly a tribute to Nadal's superior mental strength and not due to FH superiority. Agreed, Nadal has more rpm's on the ball. But what about placement, consistency, angles, power. In all this Novak has an upper hand.

The two shots which come to my mind to illustrate the point are:
a. The way Novak mercilessly attacks Nadal's 2nd serve for a winner at will
b. The way a high bouncing ball to Novak's ad court is hit Down the Line for a winner.
It is an irony that their H2H is so lopsided given all these travesties of truth. If only Novak develops half the mental strength that Nadal has, his grand-slam count would have been closer to double digits by now.

Hi novak143 Very Happy

Nice to see a new face although you do remind me of someone. Is the 143 in your name of some special significance for Novak? Just curious.

by kingraf Thu 03 Oct 2013, 1:34 pm

I vote for Rafa, Id articulate but Ive decided to look like Im working exceptionally hard so I can get a tasy Chrismas bonus... So instead I say to everyone what Disc Jockeys say to callers - I respect your opinion, but your'e wrong!

by novak143 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 1:42 pm

hawkeye wrote:
Hi novak143 Nice to see a new face although you do remind me of someone. Is the 143 in your name of some special significance for Novak? Just curious.

Well, I have been a great admirer of NITB's posts and probably the 143 in my name was influenced by her. I wanted to tell the world that I was the biggest Nole fan after her and hence the choice of the name, Smile

.

I am an avid reader of this forum, but only a passive contributor. With Nitb gone, and socal in hibernation, I took up the responsibility to kindle the enthusiasm of Novak fans on this forum.

Kingraf, Christamas is a long way to go, you can come up with your defence! We are all ears!!

by Guest Thu 03 Oct 2013, 1:53 pm

I was wondering where our Intergalactic Tennis Correspondent had been hiding!

by HM Murdock Thu 03 Oct 2013, 1:56 pm

Our problem, Novak143, is that we can make a good argument that Nole has a better backhand than Rafa and probably a better serve as well.

If we also claim that Novak has a better forehand, the H2H and 13 slams v 6 slams become tricky statistics to explain!

Nevertheless, consider my enthusiasm kindled!

by hawkeye Thu 03 Oct 2013, 2:11 pm

^ I agree Djokovic would probably get votes in the best back hand category and he has a world class BHDTL (my vote would go to Gasquet though Cool

) but few would put him in the best forehand category.

My vote went to Nadal although Federer's forehand would be a close second. Even when Nadal hits an everyday, bread and butter rally shot with his forehand it can cause problems for his opponent because of the crazy spin. Nadal doesn't just have the ability to hit deadly winners with his forehand... all his forehands can be deadly (or at least hurt a bit...)

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 Oct 2013, 4:01 pm

novak143 wrote:Though I am a Novak fan, I do admit that Fed has probably the best FH of all time. But I do not understand, why Nadal's Forehand is considered superior to Novak's by many people.

In most of the matches between them (the classic Rome'09 SF, AO'11 and '12, FO 12' and '13, USO'11 and '13), you can notice how Novak dominates the rallies by using his FH so effectively. Novak lost more of these matches which is truly a tribute to Nadal's superior mental strength and not due to FH superiority. Agreed, Nadal has more rpm's on the ball. But what about placement, consistency, angles, power. In all this Novak has an upper hand.

The two shots which come to my mind to illustrate the point are:
a. The way Novak mercilessly attacks Nadal's 2nd serve for a winner at will
b. The way a high bouncing ball to Novak's ad court is hit Down the Line for a winner.
It is an irony that their H2H is so lopsided given all these travesties of truth. If only Novak develops half the mental strength that Nadal has, his grand-slam count would have been closer to double digits by now.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 Oct 2013, 4:02 pm

Hello novak143, thanks for brightening up a tedious teaching session

by Born Slippy Thu 03 Oct 2013, 4:45 pm

Novak's forehand may be more aggressive than Rafa's when they play although he is also more likely to mis-fire. However, it is also the case that Novak's outstanding backhand and great movement blunts Rafa's forehand to some degree. For the majority of the rest of the tour who don't possess those gifts, Rafa's forehand appears far more difficult to cope with than Novak's. I agree with HE - even a relatively standard rallying shot is loaded with so much spin it is a nightmare to control.

by LuvSports! Thu 03 Oct 2013, 4:50 pm

For me Rafa's fh can be ineffective, more so than feds but feds fh sprays more errors.

by hawkeye Thu 03 Oct 2013, 5:14 pm

^ Ha ha! Luvsports that's very funny. The two candidates for GOAT have ineffective and error prone forehands. That should give us all some hope Very Happy

by kingraf Thu 03 Oct 2013, 5:15 pm

It never ceases to amaze me that in the eyes of many, Nadals only weapon seems to be willpower.
can't serve
Can't volley
His initial movement is all wrong
No backhand
Has an ineffective forehand

But boy can he fight!!

by hawkeye Thu 03 Oct 2013, 5:22 pm

^ Nah! The only reason behind the talentless Nadal's wins is the cheating conniving way he arranges his water bottles...

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 Oct 2013, 5:36 pm

kingraf wrote:It never ceases to amaze me that in the eyes of many, Nadals only weapon seems to be willpower.
can't serve
Can't volley
His initial movement is all wrong
No backhand
Has an ineffective forehand

But boy can he fight!!

Yeah, in order for that to be true, everyone else on tour would have to be mentally utterly pathetic. I also like the differing stereotypes of "he's all about the spin" "defence" "power tennis" "movement" "fitness".

by Johnyjeep Thu 03 Oct 2013, 7:43 pm

The only problem with Nadal having a better forehand than Federer is that, assuming Nadal has the better backhand, and I think we'll say he has, you have to wonder why Nadal hasn't dominated more than he has....comparable to Fed.

Was/Is Fed's serve enough to dominate over the entire tour more than Nadal's? Is Nadal's serve that bad? I think the points made on the main thread on this were very accurate. Memory fades. Nadal's star is still shining bright.

by Born Slippy Thu 03 Oct 2013, 7:51 pm

I would say Fed's serve is significantly better than Rafa's has been for large parts of his career. I would also suggest that there is not much difference in their backhands. - Rafa's is probably more steady but its never been a real killer shot.

by kingraf Thu 03 Oct 2013, 8:03 pm

Well, the truth is that if you drew up a "ghost race" -I.e looking at each player at roughly the same age - They are basically equal, aren't they? Of course Fed has more weeks at #1, but otherwise - at 27
Slams - 13 each
YE #1 - Fed four times, Rafa - pretty likely to be 3

Rafa has 0 WTF's, and Roger already had four, But Rafa has 25 Masters, to Rogers 14, If I'm not mistaken, at the time. Rafa already "broke" 60 (titles), a mark Roger reached at roughly the same age. I think you would find they are pretty equal - Which reflects in their rating here.

by LuvSports! Thu 03 Oct 2013, 8:15 pm

Rafa won his first slam aged just 19, feds a relative late bloomer back then at 21 almost 22.

by kingraf Thu 03 Oct 2013, 8:19 pm

That, of course, isn't Rafa's fault. In any event, it took Roger 43 Slams to get 13, while it took Rafa a whole 36, which equates to about two years worth of Slams. Swings and roundabouts.

by kingraf Thu 03 Oct 2013, 8:30 pm

Essentially, LS - while Federer may indeed have Been a relative late bloomer, that's not something that held him back, like an injury, or eligibility issues. No one stopped him from winning a Slam earlier - he just couldn't. Whether that was to mental issues, or technical (theres a reason players attacked Federers backhand when he started) is irrelevant. You don't get bonus points for winning slams in a condensed period of time.

Might as well crown Djokovic better than Becker because he only won his at 20 vs Beckers 17.

by **laverfan** Thu 03 Oct 2013, 8:53 pm

Perhaps this should help put things in perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INUnajp6e8c

by LuvSports! Thu 03 Oct 2013, 9:02 pm

It wasn't an attempt to give feds extra kudos, i was merely saying the facts. Nothing more, nothing less.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 Oct 2013, 9:21 pm

LF, not sure what that puts in perspective at all?!

by CAS Thu 03 Oct 2013, 9:51 pm

would be interesting if Nadal wins best forehand, because what other area could Federer have in this perfect player? The guy considered the best ever doesn't have an attribute that fits in?

half volley?
slice?
backhand smash?

are they included?

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 Oct 2013, 9:51 pm

What are the categories anyway?

by Born Slippy Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:20 pm

CAS wrote:would be interesting if Nadal wins best forehand, because what other area could Federer have in this perfect player? The guy considered the best ever doesn't have an attribute that fits in?

half volley?
slice?
backhand smash?

are they included?

The point is though that Fed is arguably top 5 in serve and forehand - probably the two most important categories for a great player. Only Sampras can match that. I personally would pick Gonzo for forehand but he wouldn't be top 100 alltime in any other category - hence a career without a slam. In contrast, Fed would probably be top 25 in more or less every tennis attribute - volleying possibly being the exception.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:28 pm

Slice will be included surely? It's pretty key

by **laverfan** Fri 04 Oct 2013, 1:10 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:LF, not sure what that puts in perspective at all?!

In 2008, Nadal had 82-11 with 8 titles, while in 2013, he is 61-3 with 10 titles, so his FH (using a direct proportionality) is much better now, with changes in his racquet and many other factors.

In contrast, Federer and Sampras, hardly made any changes to their original racquets. As JJ points out, lot of history is forgotten and memories dim, so the deficiencies past are ignored for current form.

Nadal's winning streak seems to have been equated with the 'best' FH, which may not be the case.

Gonzo was almost unplayable with his FH in his heyday. To a large extent Sampras and Federer were the same way. Federer, probably a bit better than Sampras. Federer has always lived in the 'shadow' of the GCOAT, as has Nadal under the GGOAT/GHOAT.

EricTheBlue's video, and Danny's comments are worth considering in the long-term career of a player, not just the current winning streak.

by Haddie-nuff Fri 04 Oct 2013, 9:07 am

Watching Nadal playing Fognini today when Rafa put a banana forehand shot down the line that landed just inside the corner the commentator said that shot of Rafa´s is considered to be the best in tennis today
I have to agree

by erictheblueuk Fri 04 Oct 2013, 10:03 am

laverfan wrote:Perhaps this should help put things in perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INUnajp6e8c

Both these players have come a long way since that match also neither player were at their best in this match for very different reasons.

by whocares Fri 04 Oct 2013, 10:10 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:Watching Nadal playing Fognini today when Rafa put a banana forehand shot down the line that landed just inside the corner the commentator said that shot of Rafa´s is considered to be the best in tennis today
I have to agree

during his last injury break, Nadal worked on the precison of his shots (since he couldnt move a lot he had to hit specific targets during training). that's why his forehand is better now, the more precise probably, quite effective surely but being better is also a matter of taste I guess.

by Born Slippy Fri 04 Oct 2013, 10:46 am

I don't agree with Laver's post. It seems to be suggesting that Rafa's forehand is more highly regarded than Fed's purely because he wins more now. That's just not a fair assessment. I would probably personally give Fed's forehand the narrow edge but the fact is that, even at his absolute best, it could cough up errors against the very best. Was it the Rome final in 06 where he sprayed it all over the place on match points? The fact is that if I had to choose Rafa or Fed to make a forehand under severe pressure then I would choose Rafa.

by ChequeredJersey Fri 04 Oct 2013, 10:48 am

Is that his forehand you're assessing or his mental strength though?

by Haddie-nuff Fri 04 Oct 2013, 10:50 am

whocares wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:Watching Nadal playing Fognini today when Rafa put a banana forehand shot down the line that landed just inside the corner the commentator said that shot of Rafa´s is considered to be the best in tennis today
I have to agree
during his last injury break, Nadal worked on the precison of his shots (since he couldnt move a lot he had to hit specific targets during training). that's why his forehand is better now, the more precise probably, quite effective surely but being better is also a matter of taste I guess.

It had nothing to do with his injury break he has always been able to produce that banana shot which is and has been his trademark.. no one else can produce it. His forehand, in my opinion, running or otherwise, cross court or down the line is awesome and many of the top players agree

by novak143 Fri 04 Oct 2013, 11:00 am

kingraf wrote:It never ceases to amaze me that in the eyes of many, Nadals only weapon seems to be willpower.
can't serve
Can't volley
His initial movement is all wrong
No backhand
Has an ineffective forehand

But boy can he fight!!

Serve: He is undoubtedly the best in holding his serve when facing Break Points. This is because, he does not have a killer first serve, which is a blessing in disguise, as he tries to start the point from a neutral position. That is, he does not make it easy for the returner, nor does he put himself in a advantageous position. In a way he is not worried that his first serve did not go in and has now only one chance left (i.e. 2nd serve). Other players try to ace the first serve, pull it long and while doing 2nd serve end up doing a double fault also, at times (At least Novak falls in this trap, while facing a BP many times).
Volley: Agreed, he is hooked up to base line unless drawn forward by a short ball. But when he does come to the net, he wins the point mostly.
Backhand: It has come a long way from the initial days, when it was a liability. Now, his cross-court BH is a weapon.
Forehand: As others have pointed out, the mere RPM count makes it very difficult for players other than Fed/Novak, to keep it in play. That is why he has such an enviable H2H record against all other players.

Now consider this. If I were not a fan of Nadal or Novak, and am just a neutral fan of the game as such. And if we are watching their classic matches like Rome'09 SF, AO'11 and '12, FO 12' and '13, USO'11 and '13, or even the Montreal'13, whom do you think the neutral fan supports? The one who is attacking the defensive player and going for his shots for 60-70% of the match time. Or the one who is content to return every ball, and wait for the opponent to blink before himself. I know tennis is not about winners and it is all about percentages. This is where Nadal excels. But if you watch a match like Rome09, FO13 or even Cincy13, the loser wins the heart of the neutral fans for the sheer persistence and belief in the attacking play. The irony is that, against Nadal that is the only way to win, and unfortunately other than Novak and Roger not many in modern tennis have the guts/game to beat this spin monster.

by whocares Fri 04 Oct 2013, 11:06 am

Haddie-nuff, I didnt say its a new shot but perhaps more a tad precise than before. as for the rest, I can agree but allow me to prefer more agressive forehands from the likes of Gonzo and Soderling.

ps : before I get put in some type of anti nadal faction, I want to stress that I like Nadal both the character and tennis player.

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