Building The Perfect Tennis Player - Part 2 - Best Forehand

by Guest Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:26 am

First topic message reminder :

Here we are folks. The vote is here and get them in for what I think is the more insteresting of the categories.

by ChequeredJersey Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:07 pm

novak143 wrote:
kingraf wrote:It never ceases to amaze me that in the eyes of many, Nadals only weapon seems to be willpower.
can't serve
Can't volley
His initial movement is all wrong
No backhand
Has an ineffective forehand

But boy can he fight!!
Serve: He is undoubtedly the best in holding his serve when facing Break Points. This is because, he does not have a killer first serve, which is a blessing in disguise, as he tries to start the point from a neutral position. That is, he does not make it easy for the returner, nor does he put himself in a advantageous position. In a way he is not worried that his first serve did not go in and has now only one chance left (i.e. 2nd serve). Other players try to ace the first serve, pull it long and while doing 2nd serve end up doing a double fault also, at times (At least Novak falls in this trap, while facing a BP many times).
Volley: Agreed, he is hooked up to base line unless drawn forward by a short ball. But when he does come to the net, he wins the point mostly.
Backhand: It has come a long way from the initial days, when it was a liability. Now, his cross-court BH is a weapon.
Forehand: As others have pointed out, the mere RPM count makes it very difficult for players other than Fed/Novak, to keep it in play. That is why he has such an enviable H2H record against all other players.

Now consider this. If I were not a fan of Nadal or Novak, and am just a neutral fan of the game as such. And if we are watching their classic matches like Rome'09 SF, AO'11 and '12, FO 12' and '13, USO'11 and '13, or even the Montreal'13, whom do you think the neutral fan supports? The one who is attacking the defensive player and going for his shots for 60-70% of the match time. Or the one who is content to return every ball, and wait for the opponent to blink before himself. I know tennis is not about winners and it is all about percentages. This is where Nadal excels. But if you watch a match like Rome09, FO13 or even Cincy13, the loser wins the heart of the neutral fans for the sheer persistence and belief in the attacking play. The irony is that, against Nadal that is the only way to win, and unfortunately other than Novak and Roger not many in modern tennis have the guts/game to beat this spin monster.

Thought his H2H was pretty favourable against them too? Also, from what I've seen on this forum and IRL, I'm not sure your second paragraph is true in Manu respects at all.

by ChequeredJersey Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:09 pm

Also why would we be Rafa fans if his tennis offered nothing to the neutral? People make the assumption that fans think players are good to watch because they are fans. Logically the reverse is true, we are fans because we think they are good to watch. Unless I were Spanish, what other reason would I have to support Rafa?

by Haddie-nuff Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:04 pm

whocares wrote:Haddie-nuff, I didnt say its a new shot but perhaps more a tad precise than before. as for the rest, I can agree but allow me to prefer more agressive forehands from the likes of Gonzo and Soderling.

ps : before I get put in some type of anti nadal faction, I want to stress that I like Nadal both the character and tennis player.

Oh dear I wasn´t suggesting for a minute you were anti nadal. thumbsup

I merely pointed out that Rafa has not had the need to perfect that shot that has been undeniably his for as long as I can remember. I too favour Fernando Gonzalez and if you noticed my comments on the No. 1. thread you regarding forehands you would see he was my second favourite.. I too like Verdasco (on a good day.. which are few and far between these days sadly) but his forehand can be lethal. Dont care for Soderling personally but each to his own

by Haddie-nuff Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:07 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Also why would we be Rafa fans if his tennis offered nothing to the neutral? People make the assumption that fans think players are good to watch because they are fans. Logically the reverse is true, we are fans because we think they are good to watch. Unless I were Spanish, what other reason would I have to support Rafa?

I agree with that observation CJ I am a fan of Rafa´s because I love to watch him play... yes I live in Spain which may appear to make me biased but if Raonic were Spanish I still wouldn´t be a fan.. if any of that makes sense Shocked

by LuvSports! Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:34 pm

In most matches Rafa has less fh winners than his opponent, feds doesn't Wink

by Haddie-nuff Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:34 pm

LuvSports! wrote:In most matches Rafa has less fh winners than his opponent, feds doesn't

Well LS he must have something going for him then if its not his fh... because he keeps winning and Fed doesnt Wink

by LuvSports! Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:36 pm

Yes. His ridiculous defensive skills and insane fitness levels that win him more points than his offence. Wink

by hawkeye Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:42 pm

laverfan wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:LF, not sure what that puts in perspective at all?!
In 2008, Nadal had 82-11 with 8 titles, while in 2013, he is 61-3 with 10 titles, so his FH (using a direct proportionality) is much better now, with changes in his racquet and many other factors.

Ha ha! laverfan. You are mischievous sometimes. Why would you use a match from 2008 were Nadal said about his play that he didn't think he could play worse to demonstrate that his forehand now is better than back then. It would be like me comparing his Wimbledon match this year with his Wimbledon win in 2008 (or his FO demolition of Federer that year...) to demonstrate his superior forehand back then.

by Born Slippy Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:49 pm

I would think its unlikely there are that many matches where Rafa's opponent hits more FH winners. I would need some convincing that was the case.

by ChequeredJersey Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:52 pm

Does best FH only include attacking FHs not defensive ones and rallying ones anyway? That would seem a stupid measure of the quality of a FH

by LuvSports! Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:01 pm

BS well i have seen many matches with rafa and he has hit less fh winners.
But as that would require a lot of research over the years, i doubt either could prove their point (US open rafa hit more than anyone on fh winners but in his 3 matches in beijing he hit less than his opponent each time), unless laverfan does it for us.

Fair point. I just said feds fh is better offensively.

by hawkeye Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Also why would we be Rafa fans if his tennis offered nothing to the neutral? People make the assumption that fans think players are good to watch because they are fans. Logically the reverse is true, we are fans because we think they are good to watch. Unless I were Spanish, what other reason would I have to support Rafa?
I agree with that observation CJ I am a fan of Rafa´s because I love to watch him play... yes I live in Spain which may appear to make me biased but if Raonic were Spanish I still wouldn´t be a fan.. if any of that makes sense

I found it quite funny how many fans in Beijing where waving Spanish flags this morning. I'm not sure that this had anything to do with a large Spanish population living there or indeed could be interpreted as being representative of a display of Chinese love of the Spanish culture as a whole.

novak143. I suppose you could divide tennis fans into "neutral tennis fans" and "Rafa fans". But in what category would you place a neutral tennis fan who was also a Rafa fan. Would you say that the two groups are mutually exclusive? If that's the case would you say that that a neutral tennis fan who said they also liked Rafa was in denial or lying? And that really they weren't neutral at all but just a "Rafa fan". I guess you are a neutral tennis fan?

by hawkeye Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:14 pm

legendkillarV2. In your series of best shots maybe it would be a good idea to conclude with an article on the best tactical player? This article on forehands has shown that many are biased towards the use of high risk hit or miss forehands. They have their place of course but a good forehand is a bit more than that. I would say that a player with a good forehand should be able to demonstrate control, aggression, defense, variation of spin and speed... but also know when to use a particular forehand. Without the right tactics even a great forehand wouldn't get results

by ChequeredJersey Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:19 pm

I am temped to change my vote but I can't...

by LuvSports! Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:21 pm

Sorry are Federer, Djokovic and Murray fans are neutral fans?

by hawkeye Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:25 pm

^ presumably?

by Haddie-nuff Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:59 pm

LuvSports! wrote:Yes. His ridiculous defensive skills and insane fitness levels that win him more points than his offence.

Sorry one thing to say to that LS Bovine Fertilizer Very Happy

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:14 pm

Seems we can't even decide what 'best forehand' means, let alone who has it Smile

by Guest Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:26 pm

How about if you could choose a FH to have, who's would you have?

by LuvSports! Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:35 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
LuvSports! wrote:Yes. His ridiculous defensive skills and insane fitness levels that win him more points than his offence.
Sorry one thing to say to that LS Bovine Fertilizer

Sorry then but if you don;t think Nadal wins more because of his offence then defence, then you're naive. Smile

When will the smileys stop? Wink

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:40 pm

I'd have JMDPs 'cos I'd like to hit the ball flat and hard like that.

If I went for my favourite player, as most people seem to do, I'd have to go for Henman Laugh

by HM Murdock Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:03 pm

I'd like to have Davydenko's forehead. It has a lovely peak to it.

by Guest Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:03 pm

I would want the Soderling FH. I just love his technique and wallop give the ball a good hiding! Laugh

by hawkeye Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:51 pm

LuvSports! wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:
LuvSports! wrote:Yes. His ridiculous defensive skills and insane fitness levels that win him more points than his offence.
Sorry one thing to say to that LS Bovine Fertilizer
Sorry then but if you don;t think Nadal wins more because of his offence then defence, then you're naive. :)When will the smileys stop?

I think Nadal wins by using the right balance between offense and defence... its called tactics. He appears to get the balance right Wink

or

or

..... ..... ..... Very Happy

by Haddie-nuff Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:12 pm

LuvSports! wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:
LuvSports! wrote:Yes. His ridiculous defensive skills and insane fitness levels that win him more points than his offence.
Sorry one thing to say to that LS Bovine Fertilizer
Sorry then but if you don;t think Nadal wins more because of his offence then defence, then you're naive. :)When will the smileys stop?

When you want them to stop if thats your attitude

by Haddie-nuff Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:12 pm

LuvSports! wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:
LuvSports! wrote:Yes. His ridiculous defensive skills and insane fitness levels that win him more points than his offence.
Sorry one thing to say to that LS Bovine Fertilizer
Sorry then but if you don;t think Nadal wins more because of his offence then defence, then you're naive. :)When will the smileys stop?

by LuvSports! Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:25 pm

Ok how about this. I think Rafa's fh is better in defence but Fed's in attack Smile

.
Everybody wins.

by Haddie-nuff Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:42 pm

LuvSports! wrote:Ok how about this. I think Rafa's fh is better in defence but Fed's in attack .
Everybody wins.

O goodie goodie and all done with a Smile

But I still dont agree with you and I know that makes me sooooooooo naive

by hawkeye Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:55 pm

I can remember when Federer was asked what shot he would have of Nadal's he said his forehand. I took that to mean he would exchange his own for it. (Nadal was asked the same question and he said Federer's serve)

But of course that is just their opinion. What do they know....

by CAS Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:57 pm

I think Federers is the most beautiful, but Nadals has been more effective for some time now.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:42 pm

hawkeye wrote:I can remember when Federer was asked what shot he would have of Nadal's he said his forehand. I took that to mean he would exchange his own for it. (Nadal was asked the same question and he said Federer's serve)

But of course that is just their opinion. What do they know....

I thought Fed said none - all of his shots were better than all of Nadal's. Or maybe it was PseudoFed who said that.
Interestingly Fed would seem to think the difference between his own BH vs Rafa's BH is less than the difference between their FHs - which means he doesn't know that much Smile

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:43 pm

CAS wrote:I think Federers is the most beautiful, but Nadals has been more effective for some time now.

Nadal's has also been more effective than Sampras' for some time Wink

by LuvSports! Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:46 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
LuvSports! wrote:Ok how about this. I think Rafa's fh is better in defence but Fed's in attack .
Everybody wins.
O goodie goodie and all done with a
But I still dont agree with you and I know that makes me sooooooooo naive

At least you admit it though Smile

by Haddie-nuff Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:30 pm

LuvSports! wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:
LuvSports! wrote:Ok how about this. I think Rafa's fh is better in defence but Fed's in attack .
Everybody wins.
O goodie goodie and all done with a
But I still dont agree with you and I know that makes me sooooooooo naive
At least you admit it though

Believe me LS when you can reach my age and still be called naive ... its a compliment laughing

by **laverfan** Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:50 am

Born Slippy wrote:I don't agree with Laver's post. It seems to be suggesting that Rafa's forehand is more highly regarded than Fed's purely because he wins more now. That's just not a fair assessment. I would probably personally give Fed's forehand the narrow edge but the fact is that, even at his absolute best, it could cough up errors against the very best. Was it the Rome final in 06 where he sprayed it all over the place on match points?

There are many such instances, v Djokovic at USO, v Safin at AO, v Monfils at Paris. He has been called the Shanker or Federror by many. My point was to show the improvement in the FH.

Born Slippy wrote:The fact is that if I had to choose Rafa or Fed to make a forehand under severe pressure then I would choose Rafa.

If I had to choose, and the choice was a single FH shot, my choice would be different, and not necessarily Federer.

BTW, Monfils has a tremendous FH, as does (did?) Soderling, and this thread is becoming a Fedal FH discussion, less so what the OP intended. Wink

by **laverfan** Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:56 am

novak143 wrote:The irony is that, against Nadal that is the only way to win, and unfortunately other than Novak and Roger not many in modern tennis have the guts/game to beat this spin monster.

Nadal is unique. There are many who have beaten him, not just Djokovic or Federer.

by **laverfan** Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:01 am

hawkeye wrote:I can remember when Federer was asked what shot he would have of Nadal's he said his forehand. I took that to mean he would exchange his own for it. (Nadal was asked the same question and he said Federer's serve)

But of course that is just their opinion. What do they know....

Jim Courier, during on-court interviews. BTW, they responded with wanting each other's FH, not serve and FH, IIRC.

by HM Murdock Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:16 am

I remember the same interview as HE. I don't think it was on-court.

Rafa definitely said he would like Roger's serve. I seem to recall Roger ducked the question somewhat. I don't think he named a shot of Rafa's he would like but generally praised Rafa's game instead.

by CAS Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:28 pm

there was actually two, one where they tell Federer that Rafa said if he could have one shot he would have his forehand, Federer then says "well Rafa has a great forehand as well so I would take his" Then in a different year Courier said Rafa said he would take Rogers serve, so Roger just compliments Rafas all-round game

by **laverfan** Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:22 pm

@CAS... Both of the Courier interviews used to be on UTube, but I cannot find either. :(The FH swap interview is the more recent one, correct?

by CAS Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:18 pm

I can't find it either, I actually think the one where Rafa says he would take Federers serve was the more recent one

by hawkeye Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:34 pm

laverfan wrote:
hawkeye wrote:I can remember when Federer was asked what shot he would have of Nadal's he said his forehand. I took that to mean he would exchange his own for it. (Nadal was asked the same question and he said Federer's serve)

But of course that is just their opinion. What do they know....
Jim Courier, during on-court interviews. BTW, they responded with wanting each other's FH, not serve and FH, IIRC.

It was the same year and both were interviewed by Jim Courier and I am sure Fed said Rafa's forehand and Rafa said Feds serve. I have looked but haven't been able to find it yet. But mean while I did find this and it made me laugh. Especially the bit starting at 1.50 were Federer describes his fitness routine saying "It's all talent and that he just sits on the couch" Ha ha! It made me think of a certain ex 606v2 member...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rh6IO_sZys

I've missed Federer. But hurray he's back in Shanghai.

by **laverfan** Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:07 pm

hawkeye wrote:Especially the bit starting at 1.50 were Federer describes his fitness routine saying "It's all talent and that he just sits on the couch" Ha ha!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rh6IO_sZys

I've missed Federer. But hurray he's back in Shanghai.

The 24-diapers comment is funny. Good to see Federer back. Building The Perfect Tennis Player - Part 2 - Best Forehand - Page 2 3845856932

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