Pacquiao vs. Mayweather: Who’s the Best of the Era?

First topic message reminder :

By Kelsey McCarson
 
Al Bernstein knows more about boxing than me. To be totally fair to him, it’s probably safe to say the recently inducted Hall of Famer has actually forgotten more about boxing at this point in his storied career than I know in total.
 
Bernstein has done it all as a boxing media member, and he’s done it well. He started as a newspaperman in the 1970s. Soon, he was contributing to Boxing Illustrated and RING Magazine. From 1980 to 1998, he was analyst and host of ESPN’s Top Rank Boxing show. In fact, from 1980 to 2003, Bernstein was the primary voice of boxing for ESPN. And, as you well know, since 2003 Bernstein has been lead boxing analyst for Showtime. He’s also the primary face and leader of our sister site, Boxing Channel.

Like I said, he’s done it all.
 
One of his signature shows over at ESPN was the Big Fights Boxing Hour. He wrote and hosted 26 episodes of the program, which chronicled some of the biggest fights in boxing history. Honestly, my first encounter with many of the finer points of boxing history came through watching these shows, where old-time masters like Sugar Ray Robinson and Jack Dempsey came to life again through the magic of film.
 
So when I chatted with Bernstein recently, I couldn’t help but ask him to compare legacies between the two preeminent fighters of this era, Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao. Who is the greatest of this era, as of today? If I’m honest with myself, I was probably hoping Bernstein would validate my opinion on the matter: Mayweather is an all-time great, but Pacquiao is an all-time greater.
 
Look, I’m not saying Pacquiao would’ve beaten Mayweather at welterweight back when the fight should’ve happened around 2009-10. (I’m not not saying it either). But I submit to you, dear reader, that Pacquiao’s wins, both the men he fought and when he fought them, measure slightly better than Mayweather’s grand accomplishment of staying undefeated.
 
Sure, it’s close. But Pacquiao’s three best wins before he moved up to welterweight (Barrera, Morales and Marquez) are better than any one win Mayweather has enjoyed over his entire career. Right?
 
And his losses? Give me the fighter who tests himself over the one that doesn’t. I want to see a fighter go beyond his limits, and when he reaches them and gets knocked to the ground, I want to see if he can get back up again.
 
But what does Bernstein say on the matter? First, I asked him about the fight that never got made. What would a Manny Pacquiao vs. Floyd Mayweather Superfight have looked like back in 2009?
 
“That would’ve been fun,” Bernstein said. “I always thought that version of Manny Pacquiao had a chance to do rather well against Mayweather. I mean, I may have been wrong based on what has transpired since, but I always thought that the fight would have been really interesting during that time period because of the speed and activity of Pacquiao. That was an A level fighter in Manny Pacquiao who had confidence that was skyrocketing and all the rest of it.”
 
So Pacquiao is on the same level as Mayweather at welterweight? Among the greatest of the greats?
 
“Now at those weight divisions, [Pacquiao] is not a Ray Leonard or a Tommy Hearns or a Roberto Duran. Down at featherweight, around those areas, to me he is one of the biggest superstars of all-time along with Barrera, Marquez and Morales. He’s not [quite at that level] at the higher weights, but still terrific.”
 
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/17432-mayweather-vs-pacquiao-whos-best-of-the-era

Pacquiao - Bradley

Danny Flexen, Boxing News: 115-113 Bradley
Cameron Sharpe, Boxing Fancast: 115-115 Draw
Chris Manix, Sports Illustrated: 115-113 Pacquiao
Lem Satterfield, Ring Magazine: 115-113 Pacquiao
Gordon Marino, The Wall Street Journal: 115-113 Pacquiao
Armando Alvarez, Telemundo: 115-113 Pacquiao
Jake Donovan, BoxingScene.com: 115-113 Pacquiao
Terry Dooley, BoxingScene.com: 115-113 Pacquiao
Jordan Capobianco, BoxingNews24.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
Franklin McNeil, Newark Star-Ledger: 116-112 Pacquiao
Brett Okamoto, ESPN: 116-112 Pacquiao
Steve Bunce, BoxNation.com/BBC: 116-112 Pacquiao
Juan Manuel Marquez: 116-112 Pacquiao
Max Kellerman, HBO: 116-112 Pacquiao
Andreas Hale, FightNews.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
Brian Arman Graham, Sports Illustrated: 116-112 Pacquiao
George Willis, The New York Post: 116-112 Pacquiao
Rick Reeno, BoxingScene.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
Robert Morales, Los Angeles Daily News: 116-112 Pacquiao
Ben Thompson, FightHype.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
Tim Smith, New York Daily News: 116-112 Pacquiao
Suge Green, On the Grind Boxing Radio: 116-112 Pacquiao
Steve Zemach, The Queensbury Rules.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
Michael Nelson, TheCruelestSport.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
Tom Gray, SecondsOut.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
Joel Sebastionelli, LIITR Box Radio: 116-112 Pacquiao
CheckHook.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
BoxingSocialist.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
Ricky Hatton: 116-112 Pacquiao
Amir Khan, Primetime: 116-112 Pacquiao
Wayne McCullough: 116-112 Pacquiao
Ken Hissner, DogHouseBoxing.com: 116-112 Pacquiao
Alexander Belenky, Sport-Express.ru: 116-112 Pacquiao
Rob Day, RingNews24.com: 117-112 Pacquiao
Ryan Burton, BoxingScene.com: 117-112 Pacquiao
Matt Youmans, Las Vegas Review-Journal: 117-111 Pacquiao
Graham Houston, FightWriter.com/FightNews.com/ESPN: 117-111 Pacquiao
Stephen Edwards, BoxingTalk.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Kieran Mulvaney, ESPN: 117-111 Pacquiao
Tim Dahlberg, Associated Press: 117-111 Pacquiao
Ron Borges, Boston Herald: 117-111 Pacquiao
Cliff Rold, BoxingScene.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Chris Robinson, BoxingScene.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Steve Carp, Las Vegas Review-Journal: 117-111 Pacquiao
Ronnie Shields, boxing trainer: 117-111 Pacquiao
David Mayo, The Grand Rapids Press: 117-111 Pacquiao
Robert Little, BlackSportsOnline.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Jorge Hernandez, The Low Blow.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
David Greisman, BoxingScene.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Benny Henderson, DogHouseBoxing.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Ryan Phillips, BleacherReport.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Graham Parker, The Guardian (UK): 117-111 Pacquiao
Ed Graney, Las Vegas Review-Journal: 117-111 Pacquiao
Luis Sandoval, BoxingScene.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Jonathan Sakti, Comcast Sports Net Bay Area: 117-111 Pacquiao
Richie Tomasini, Comcast Sports Net Bay Area: 117-111 Pacquiao
Tim Starks, The Queensbury Rules: 117-111 Pacquiao
Champ Ross, DaTruthBoxing.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Lance Pugmire, Los Angeles Times: 117-111 Pacquiao
Darren Velasco, 8CountNews.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Ryan Maquinana, Comcast Sports Net Bay Area: 117-111 Pacquiao
George Diaz, The Orlando Sentinel: 117-111 Pacquiao
Steve Kim, MaxBoxing.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Doug Fischer, Ring Magazine: 117-111 Pacquiao
FightersRated.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Luke Thomas, MMAFighting.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Scott Christ, BadLeftHook.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Kevin Iole, Yahoo! Sports: 117-111 Pacquiao
Tommy Gunn, BoxingAsylum.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Charles Farrell, No Holds Barred Radio Show: 117-111 Pacquiao
Gareth Davies, London Telegraph: 117-111 Pacquiao
John Perretti, No Holds Barred Radio Show: 117-111 Pacquiao
John Raspanti, DogHouseBoxing.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Ron Lewis, Primetime/BBC: 117-111 Pacquiao
Brent Brookhouse, SBNation.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Jake Emen, ProBoxing-Fans.com: 117-111 Pacquiao
Alexey Sukachev, Sports.ru: 117-111 Pacquiao
Kevin Mitchell, The Guardian (UK): 118-112 Pacquiao
Steve Lillis, BoxNation: 118-111 Pacquiao
Nick Xouris, FightHype.com: 118-111 Pacquiao
Brett Newton, Pound4Pound.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Joseph Herron, FightSaga.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Mark Lyons, 8CountNews.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Danny "Swift" Garcia: 118-110 Pacquiao
Mike Koppinger, Ring Magazine: 118-110 Pacquiao
Gabriel Montoya, MaxBoxing.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Ryan Songalia, Ring Magazine: 118-110 Pacquiao
Robert Ecksel, Boxing.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Pete O'Brien, USA Today: 118-110 Pacquiao
John McCormick, BoxingTalk.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Victor Contreras, The Sacramento Bee: 118-110 Pacquiao
Eric Raskin, HBO/TheSweetScience.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Chuck Giampa, Showtime: 118-110 Pacquiao
John Russell, boxing trainer (Buster Douglas trainer): 118-110 Pacquiao
Rich Marotta, KFI Los Angeles: 118-110 Pacquiao
Jeff Mayweather: 118-110 Pacquiao
Ace Freeman, FightFan.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Kelsey McCarson, TheSweetScience.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Mario Cabrera, The Boxing Republic: 118-110 Pacquiao
Ramon Aranda, 3MoreRounds.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Colin Seymour, Examiner.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Nigel Collins, Espn.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Paddy Cronan, On the Grind Boxing Radio: 118-110 Pacquiao
Denzil Stone, OnTheBreak.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Phil Jay, WorldBoxingNews.net: 118-110 Pacquiao
Geoffrey Ciani, EastSideBoxing.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Michael Rosenthal, Ring Magazine: 118-110 Pacquiao
Eugeny Pilipenko, Vringe.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Vadim Zhuk, Championat.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Ken Pollitt, the13thround.com: 118-110 Pacquiao
Ted Sares, Boxing.com: 119-111 Pacquiao
Allen Barra, The Atlantic: 119-110 Pacquiao
Barry Tompkins, Showtime: 119-110 Pacquiao
Vittorio Tafur, The San Francisco Chronicle: 119-109 Pacquiao
Ray Markarian, TheSweetScience.com: 119-109 Pacquiao
Harold Lederman, HBO: 119-109 Pacquiao
Dan Rafael, ESPN: 119-109 Pacquiao
Max Parker, BoxingWatchers.com: 119-109 Pacquiao
Scott Sawitz, Fox Sports/Inside Fights: 119-109 Pacquiao
Leroy Cleveland, FightSaga.com: 119-109 Pacquiao
Michael Woods, ESPN: 119-109 Pacquiao
Michael Marley, BoxingConfidential.com/Examiner.com: 119-109 Pacquiao
Skip Bayless, ESPN: 119-109 Pacquiao
Among the experts above, 121 scored the bout for Pacquiao, 1 scored the bout a draw, and 1 scored the bout for Bradley.
None of the scores for Pacquiao was offered by Philippine media.
The draw score and the score for Bradley were not provided by American media.

Mayweather is the better of the two though Manny’s fights are more memorable therefore history will favour his highlight over Flloyd’s . It will fall to those who lived through Money’s reign to shout about his superb talent despite being muffled by exciting Best of Pacquiao YouTube clips.

I don’t buy into the ‘Cotto Version of Pacquiao’ troubles Mayweather..Yes the speed, power and work-rate of Pacquiao was brilliant but Cotto was there to be hit (as always) unlike Mayweather. There’s an argument that the intensity displayed by Pacquiao would be Floyd’s undoing, however, many have come to fight Floyd with this tactic in mind, and all have failed. Castillo is normally put forward as an example of how/why Pacqiuao may/would win against Mayweather, personally I disagree with this analysis. At that point in their careers, Castillo was the ‘bigger’/stronger man (not an advantage afforded to Manny). Castilo engaged in robust physicality whereby he employed his strength to apply ‘head on chest’ pressure (and this method of fighting is far removed from what Manny did against Cotto). Pacqiauo used his fast in and out flurries to decimate the non-ellusive Cotto as if he was target practice. However, whenever he’s tried these tactics (his only tactic) against a great counter puncher in Marquez he was found wanting. Rather than overwhelm Floyd with unpredictable flurries, I think it’s more likely Floyd would break Manny’s predictable rhythm by timing the counter. And then, after the rhythm was broken, the counters would become more powerful. I think this would result in one of two things, either, Manny throws less punches after being caught with counters, and in doing so gives up an advantage. Or, more likely, he keeps trying the same thing over and over again, and only gets caught with more counters for his trouble.

Begrudgingly I have to admit FMM is the best of an era

I have just clicked onto this thread and I must say the PURE HATRED coming off the screen is quite disturbing.

I know Floyd rubs people up the wrong way but to question his professional career in any aspect is qutie sad. Yet another Floyd hating thread...

when will it stop???

Hatred? I don't see it?

But Pacquiao’s three best wins before he moved up to welterweight (Barrera, Morales and Marquez) are better than any one win Mayweather has enjoyed over his entire career. Right?

What a statement to make, no justification for it just pure conjecture and HATE

And his losses? Give me the fighter who tests himself over the one that doesn’t. I want to see a fighter go beyond his limits, and when he reaches them and gets knocked to the ground, I want to see if he can get back up again.

Really can't get my head around this BRUTAL ATTACK on Floyd. In one sentence you are saying that Floyd has never tested himself because he has never lost a fight??? This is just crazy. It seems you are forgetting that Floyd is just TOO GOOD.

Really the hate from the screen is almost demonic.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

Really the hate from the screen is almost demonic.

You must have a more sophisticated monitor than me all I am getting is an overwhelming feeling of deja vu.

hazharrison wrote:

Scottrf wrote:I meant the fights they've had, not if they fought.

Really? I think Pacquiao has the better wins.

Maybe, but definitely the worse losses.

Rowley wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

Really the hate from the screen is almost demonic.

You must have a more sophisticated monitor than me all I am getting is an overwhelming feeling of deja vu.

I'm on the phone to my local priest about arranging an excercism on my PC as I type this. As soon as he gets the Vaticans approval we should be good to go.

Can't in all good conscience have Manny anything other than a fair few spots behind Floyd in the all-time great race, I think. But Pacquiao has been a truly, truly great fighter in his own right.

Give or take a year or so, their careers (and world title runs) have spanned roughly the same amount of time and have run alongside each other's, but of all that time Mayweather has almost always been considered the better fighter at any given stage. The exception was that window from 2008, when Mayweather announced that temporary 'retirement', and 2011 / 2012, which was the point at which Manny's performances (Mosley, Marquez III etc) started to level out a bit after he'd previously looked so outstanding against Hatton, Cotto etc two or three years before.

That aside, Floyd's always had the upper hand really, and even during Manny's golden run his position as number one was hardly iron-clad. Rather, it was an on-going tussle between him and Mayweather (sadly the only tussle they ever had).

You could argue that Pacquiao's absolute, mountain top zenith - for argument's sake, starting with Marquez II in early 2008 and ending with Cotto in late 2009 - was a more jaw-dropping run than anything Floyd's done, albeit we could all make our favourite fighter's career look better if we concentrate on just one sequence of fights and airbrush out the ones just before and just after.

Outstanding fight against a modern great and his most fearsome career rival in Marquez (very close, mind you, but easily Manny's best performance in their series and he had a sound claim to getting the win), dazzled against Diaz, upset the odds against an admittedly washed up and out of condition Oscar, annihilated Hatton in a manner that precious few would ever have predicted and then proved that his Welter experiment against Oscar was no fluke by putting in an absolutely wonderful shift against Cotto, in a fight which absolutely nobody would ever have even imagined happening eighteen months beforehand, never mind them thinking that Manny would pull out the victory.

Five fights spread across four weight divisions in such quick time, never staying in the same weight class for more than one fight at a time; Marquez at Super-Feather, up to Lightweight for Diaz, all the way up to Welterweight for De la Hoya, back down to Light-Welter for Hatton and then returning to Welter for Cotto.

Not quite as good as Armstrong, but Pacquiao didn't half do a good impression of him during that period!

But as I said, apart from that period, their nigh-on parallel careers have generally seen Mayweather ranked higher in pound for pound lists since they both gatecrashed them, beating his best opponents with more ease than Pacquiao and showing fewer weaknesses for the most part.

Win / loss stats aren't the be all and end all, of course, but ultimately with Pacquiao you can SEE the weakness in his game, and like it or not the losses to Morales and Marquez (that's me counting Marquez III as a loss as well as IV, admittedly, as I felt and still feel that Manny got a bit of a gift there) came in or around Manny's prime, championship years, whereas Mayweather has yet to fall short at all - largely because unlike Pacquiao, there isn't a clear blueprint to look at when trying to figure out how to beat him, albeit between them Augustus, Castillo, Judah and De la Hoya have combined to cobble together a half-reasonable gameplan, with varying levels of success.

Pacquiao is a great, but to me Mayweather is greater, still.

Who has the unorthodoxy of Augustus, the pressuring of Castillo, the speed and southpaw stance of Judah and the jab of De La Hoya? If such a boxer ever exists then we're all in for a treat.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Who has the unorthodoxy of Augustus, the pressuring of Castillo, the speed and southpaw stance of Judah and the jab of De La Hoya? If such a boxer ever exists then we're all in for a treat.

Pacquiao?

 

He's got the speed and the southpaw stance but none of the rest.

Aye, Mayweather's nothing special and as Hammersmith alludes to, if he ever fights that hybrid fighter who combines a bit of Honeyghan, a bit of Chavez, a bit of Whitaker and a bit of Quartey, he'll lose for sure....

88Chris05 wrote:Aye, Mayweather's nothing special and as Hammersmith alludes to, if he ever fights that hybrid fighter who combines a bit of Honeyghan, a bit of Chavez, a bit of Whitaker and a bit of Quartey, he'll lose for sure....

Pacquiao.

88Chris05 wrote:Aye, Mayweather's nothing special and as Hammersmith alludes to, if he ever fights that hybrid fighter who combines a bit of Honeyghan, a bit of Chavez, a bit of Whitaker and a bit of Quartey, he'll lose for sure....

I'd say we combine Duran, Whitaker, Hearns and Robinson.

I always knew you were D4 really, Scott!

Na, Fight News.

88Chris05 wrote:

Give or take a year or so, their careers (and world title runs) have spanned roughly the same amount of time and have run alongside each other's, but of all that time Mayweather has almost always been considered the better fighter at any given stage.

"Both were ranked on the pound-for-pound list between 2003 and 2013, with Mayweather ranked higher for most of six of these years and Pacquiao ranking higher for most of four, despite Mayweather’s yearlong “retirement.””"



Pacquiao's wins against Barrera and Morales are also quality.

What about, say, 1998 to 2002, Strongback?

Variously Oscar, Mosley, RJJ, Hopkins.

I meant the fact that Mayweather was a pound for pound top tenner in those years, whereas Pacquiao didn't really get to that point until his back to back fights with Barrera and Marquez in 2003-2004. That's what I was getting at originally - they've had careers which have run largely parallel to one another, but for the most part it's been Floyd held in higher regard and performing at the higher level. Hence why his overall career has been better than Pacquiao's in my eyes.

Sorry, I was skim reading. Yeah Mayweather has been higher rated for almost all of their careers, 1998-2002 inclusive.

88Chris05 wrote:What about, say, 1998 to 2002, Strongback?

Pacquiao only first appears in The Rings P4P list in 2003.

Pacquiao is younger than Floyd and also had to fight his way out of the Philippines while Floyd was a top American amateur from a boxing family. Early in his career Floyd was afforded much greater publicity allowing him superior opportunities.

That's true, Strongy - have said the same myself, particularly when defending those early career defeats of Manny's. But I don't think you can put it all solely down to that. Pacquiao did have some very handy wins on his ledger relatively early on in his career (Sasakul, Ledwaba etc) so it's not as if he was a hopeless case before announcing himself as a big star by thrashing Barrera. He just wasn't on Floyd's level, ultimately.

Mitigating factors, for sure, but not enough to completely discard the fact that Mayweather was considered to be a class above Manny for many, many years - and their performances in that span pretty much bear that out.

I would still point to the publicity Floyd had on his doorstep. It's harder to make the P4P list fighting in Asia than it is fighting on HBO in Las Vegas.

I won't argue Floyd was considered top dog for a longer period but I do note Manny was up on Floyd for nigh on 4 years.

Is there an argument for Marquez ahead of Pacman?

 

Strongback wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

Give or take a year or so, their careers (and world title runs) have spanned roughly the same amount of time and have run alongside each other's, but of all that time Mayweather has almost always been considered the better fighter at any given stage.

"Both were ranked on the pound-for-pound list between 2003 and 2013, with Mayweather ranked higher for most of six of these years and Pacquiao ranking higher for most of four, despite Mayweather’s yearlong “retirement.””"



Pacquiao's wins against Barrera and Morales are also quality.

Again, I'd have Mayweather ahead of Pacquiao but not by a lot. I think they belong in the same area -- 6-4 in years at the pinnacle (but with Manny scoring bigger wins in that time) suggests that line of thinking would be sound?

Not sure who i would have as the better man, because as had said before Manny took on the better opponents and beat better men, but Floyd has remained unbeaten and is still looking amazing in his late 30's. I think if both were at their best it would be a toss up as Floyds skills and timing would be offset by Mannys speed, angles and power to make things very even. I think its too simple to say after Floyd avoiding the fight when both were at their best and maybe Manny starts to dip that Floyd was the better man because we just dont know. I think it would have been interesting and if Castillo could beat Floyd (and he did clearly in most peoples eyes) then dont tell me Manny could not, conversely Floyd never loses to Marquez though it would be a lot closer without the weight issues. The fact such an originally tiny fella as Pacquiao has achieved so much at higher weights and fought so many greats gives him a tiny edge in greatness for me but who wins with both at their best i just dont know.

Without the weight issues they would still both weigh within 147lbs on fight night, there's no real weight difference between the three.

Mayweather was clearly ahead of Pacquiao for ten years after which it was disputed between the two.

I have Marquez 3-1 over Manny........

In conclusion Haz doesn't like Floyd and has trawled long and hard to find one semi-respectable source that backs him up.......

Grew up with Bernstein and might add that many in America thought of him as an irritating idiot......especially when he used to scratch his nails on the table and produce an irritating screech during undercard fights........A regular occurrence.

Certainly not as respected as Gil Clancy.......Not that it matters to me...

Not sure Bernstein knows anymore than haz and not sure it matters If he does.......

Futch didn't rate Ali and he knows more than me.........

Duran picked Leonard to beat Hagler and HAZ laughed that off on my Leonard-Hagler thread...

Personally I'd take Duran's opinion as seriously as Bob Mee on the Leonard-Hagler fight..

But no more seriously..

Historians etc only become respectable when they follow the OP's narrative......It seems..

The difference with me Is that Historians have one voice just like the rest of us and often contradict eachother.......

So saying "Bernstein knows more than me".........Really does mean sack all.......

Let's just stop with the d4 practice of selective source processing........

Hardly trawled long and hard -- I googled "boxing" yesterday and it popped up and I couldn't resist (it's a top story for some reason).

If you read it, it's actually McCarson who backs Pacquiao rather than Bernstein (eesh, and you've besmirched him as well).

I said how I feel..

You chuck sources at people...........Fairplay..

Means nothing to me.....But bless you anyway..

Consensus on here shows you're in the minority.........Consensus was important to you on the Hagler-Leonard thread when it agreed with you.......

My guess is on this thread.....It's back to "we are all wallies because Bernstein is an expert.."

and good luck to you If it is.........

I don't really care..

joeyjojo618 wrote:Is there an argument for Marquez ahead of Pacman?

 

Yeah, it's just not a very good one.

Good point Joey, maybe there is. Elaborate a little, let me hear your thoughts.

Mayweather for me pacman has the 1 better win in Barrera the rest are close putting pacmans defeats with it I have him lbehind Floyd!Although pacman has a much more fan friendly style I still love watching Floyd box! Will be interesting once the both retire and how many loses they retire with! But for me pacman became a global superstar by the way he fights and mayweather has become a global superstar through controversy and being utter brilliant! In a sport where the idea is hit and not get hit there can only be 1 winner

This fan friendly argument really depends on the fan, I personally enjoy watching Floyd fight more than any other non british boxer, it's an appreciation of the genius rather than blood and guts. Then again i've never much rated the Gatti/Ward fights because the technical ability on show wasn't that great but i'll happily watch Coralles/Castillo or Morales/Barrera.

Marquez above Pacquiao? Not for me, losing to Marquez and Morales is one thing but losing to John and Norwood is something different, Pacman was also more convincing in victory throughout the majority of his career. Their head to head fights lessen the gap but not quite enough.

Floyd would've beaten Manny at any time and I've maintained that for the last 5 years, but the '09/'10 Manny that iced Hatton & battered Cotto would've given him hell, a lightning fast, uber confident big punching southpaw - that's Floyd's nightmare and it's little wonder he did everything possible to swerve the contest at that time.

Also, anyone that uses the Singsurat or Torrecampo defeats against Manny should just pack up and go home, he was little more than a malnourished boy at the time, learning his trade the hard way in the pro game due to poverty, while Floyd at the same period of his career was still in the protective bubble of the amateur ranks.

Floyd the better, more accomplished fighter, their records are excellent in different ways, I'd give the edge to Floyd. But as I've always said - the fact that they never fought each other is a huge black mark on both of their records, an embarrassment to them
and to the sport.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I said how I feel..

You chuck sources at people...........Fairplay..

Means nothing to me.....But bless you anyway..

Consensus on here shows you're in the minority.........Consensus was important to you on the Hagler-Leonard thread when it agreed with you.......

My guess is on this thread.....It's back to "we are all wallies because Bernstein is an expert.."

and good luck to you If it is.........

I don't really care..

I'm in the minority with what?

mobilemaster8 wrote:Good point Joey, maybe there is. Elaborate a little, let me hear your thoughts.

Sorry mm8, I just posted a stupid comment that was a deliberate attempt to wind up pacman fans, my point being that I think this thread was made simply to try and wind up Floyd fans/beefsters. I can think of no other reason why such a topic would be made, the FMJ-Pacman debate has been done to death on here. Although to be fair to the OP maybe he was not around during the endless D4 Floyd/Pacman "debates".

Given the losses on his record, and the lack of quality opposition compared to Manny, I could make no argument to have Marquez ahead. Despite his (essentially) winning record against Pacman.

they are both good.