New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

I have heard it is:

6 French
6 English
7 Pro12 (1 guaranteed from each country, 3 on league position)
1 play-off (7th English and 7th French team)

Trying to find out is correct as we speak

maestegmafia wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The RFU have shown a lot of common sense. I would be surprised not to see English teams in the ERC next season. It will be interesting to see the If the RFU eventually break the PRLs back over this...?

I notice the PRL are encouraging their clubs to renege on previously agreed release deals with Welsh players at their clubs.

Aye, I read that elsewhere. PRL attempting to bully WRU into agreeing this supposed new cup. And these guys think we can trust them with European control? I think not

Or. more accurately, PRL supporting the IRB in their International Window strategy, which was collectively imposed upon the clubs by the Unions.

Supporting it or abusing it for their own ends? From my understanding of it, the WRU had asked the RFU for player release from one of their clubs (Bath?), and that this was agreed by RFU until PRL blocked it citing exactly as you suppose above.

They abuse it for there own ends. The PRL constantly use it to prevent welsh players from playing international rugby. England are the only country who do this.

If the PRL force Saints to go back on the contract Saints made with North allowing him to play in all internationals I hope he takes them to court.

Nah, PRL support the IRB, the abusing comes from WRU;

Haven't the unions conceded entirely on the money demands? And compromised on qualification? So almost everything the PRL said they wanted is there on the table for them? But they refuse to accept it? What do they want? For the clubs to control the European rugby competition?

Given their secret TV deals, threats of financial oblivion to their European "partners", aggressive media statements and surprise announcements before any meetings, unwillingness to negotiate or compromise, willingness to destroy the HC and have everyone lose European competition if they don't get their way etc. etc....

Why on earth would anyone want these guys to be in control of European rugby?? And how do they expect anyone to trust them with all this carry on?

And then there's also the fact that the Welsh regions have allied themselves to the PRL to make it even messier. Where do the WRU stand? Could this end up with the regions joining the English league and neither playing in the European Cup?

Personally I'd really like it if Mr. McCafferty went back to banking or wherever he came from. This is just ridiculous now.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The RFU have shown a lot of common sense. I would be surprised not to see English teams in the ERC next season. It will be interesting to see the If the RFU eventually break the PRLs back over this...?

I notice the PRL are encouraging their clubs to renege on previously agreed release deals with Welsh players at their clubs.

Aye, I read that elsewhere. PRL attempting to bully WRU into agreeing this supposed new cup. And these guys think we can trust them with European control? I think not

Or. more accurately, PRL supporting the IRB in their International Window strategy, which was collectively imposed upon the clubs by the Unions.

Supporting it or abusing it for their own ends? From my understanding of it, the WRU had asked the RFU for player release from one of their clubs (Bath?), and that this was agreed by RFU until PRL blocked it citing exactly as you suppose above.

They abuse it for there own ends. The PRL constantly use it to prevent welsh players from playing international rugby. England are the only country who do this.

If the PRL force Saints to go back on the contract Saints made with North allowing him to play in all internationals I hope he takes them to court.

Nah, PRL support the IRB, the abusing comes from WRU;

How on earth do you figure that out?

The PRL are doing everything they can against the IRBs wishes to try and scupper European rugby for their financial gain at the expense of other nations well being and futures.

Using an IRB window that is there to protect the internationals from the poorest nations like Samoa, Tonga and Fiji to bargain money from the RFU, whilst holding welsh players hostage with it is not by any means whatsoever supporting the IRB. The PRL stand for pretty much everything against what the IRB do.

within ERC it's back to same old SKY. still not sure how the 1/3 money per league works with SKY in the box seat as that would mean a reduction in absolute terms for everyone apart from the French and English.

PRL want the BT deal hence why they cant do the deal within ERC.

And the french clubs HATE the people within ERC. Just Camou who appears to be having a secret love tryst with JP Lux.  

quinsforever wrote:within ERC it's back to same old SKY. still not sure how the 1/3 money per league works with SKY in the box seat as that would mean a reduction in absolute terms for everyone apart from the French and English.

PRL want the BT deal hence why they cant do the deal within ERC.

And the french clubs HATE the people within ERC.  Just Camou who appears to be having a secret love tryst with JP Lux.  

Not sure about the 33% split if the PRL plan goes belly up. The Unions agreed to a third split with the proviso that no Rabo Union would receive less than they currently do. That actually seems like a very smart move now.

thats what i thought munchkin. but the only way that worked was with the BT money. SKY's money cant get 1/3 each and rabo as they are. that requires a 56% increase in overall revenue.

i bet this thursday meeting is for camou to try to explain the consequences of not getting a deal done for the celtic unions so he can get their support. because i seriously dont think its a done deal, especially as the celtic unions can all see that camou is at war with his own clubs.

"Not sure about the 33% split if the PRL plan goes belly up. The Unions agreed to a third split with the proviso that no Rabo Union would receive less than they currently do. That actually seems like a very smart move now."

how can the 33% split work without the PRL?

the agreement is dead, a new one is needed and if the PRL do get involved there will be loads of money so no dramas

quinsforever wrote:thats what i thought munchkin. but the only way that worked was with the BT money. SKY's money cant get 1/3 each and rabo as they are. that requires a 56% increase in overall revenue.

i bet this thursday meeting is for camou to try to explain the consequences of not getting a deal done for the celtic unions so he can get their support. because i seriously dont think its a done deal, especially as the celtic unions can all see that camou is at war with his own clubs.

I agree, and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered. They will not accept less money. I think there is ways around this though. SKY will have the 33% that would have went to PRL to play with.

I don't know what the Thursday meeting is about, but from what I have read I would think it's probably decision time for clubs within LNR. Camou hardly needs to appeal to the caring side of LNR, and he is not in that kind of mood.
Yep, Camou is at war with the clubs. Nice to see at least someone with the courage to take the clubs on.

" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

mystiroakey wrote:"Not sure about the 33% split if the PRL plan goes belly up. The Unions agreed to a third split with the proviso that no Rabo Union would receive less than they currently do. That actually seems like a very smart move now."

how can the 33% split work without the PRL?

the agreement is dead, a new one is needed and if the PRL do get involved there will be loads of money so no dramas

SKY, and the Unions will have to work on the sums, but how is the agreement dead? It isn't set in stone, mystir. It is a proposal that the Unions agree on.
So many dead things  

ERC is DEAD! Long live the RCC  

the sky deal was set in stone dude- the contract was signed based on the ERC continuing as it has before.

if one league opts out- that deal/contract is dead. and a new one needs negotiating.

and obviously the celt nations will probally go for something like a 60/40 split revenue, but sky will only pay a significant amount less to show a tounry without the the english participating

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

who knows indeed. at the end of the day this is all about money (with the exception of camou for whom its about power). so the celtic unions are going to be very very keen to understand what sky will pay if the prl clubs do choose not to participate.

on that fairly undramatic note i'm off to bed.

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

increase it without the english

you are joking right?

I doubt they will pay half- obviously everyone would hope for 2/3's of the revenue

But I would bet my house that BT wouldnt get involved in this comp- no one will auction against sky for it.- It would be to political for BT- its major market is england.

mystiroakey wrote:the sky deal was set in stone dude- the contract was signed based on the ERC continuing as it has before.

if one league opts out- that deal/contract is dead. and a new one needs negotiating.

and obviously the celt nations will probally go for something like a 60/40 split revenue, but sky will only pay a significant  amount less to show a tounry without the the english participating

As I have already stated; SKY, and the Unions will just have to work it out. If it's a new deal to be forged then maybe ERC can expect more considering the BT offer. Seems likely  

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:the sky deal was set in stone dude- the contract was signed based on the ERC continuing as it has before.

if one league opts out- that deal/contract is dead. and a new one needs negotiating.

and obviously the celt nations will probally go for something like a 60/40 split revenue, but sky will only pay a significant  amount less to show a tounry without the the english participating

As I have already stated; SKY, and the Unions will just have to work it out. If it's a new deal to be forged then maybe ERC can expect more considering the BT offer. Seems likely  

About as likely as Ireland beating NZ next week mate..

mystiroakey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

increase it without the english

you are joking right?

I doubt they will pay half- obviously everyone would hope for 2/3's of the revenue

But I would bet my house that BT wouldnt get involved in this comp- no one will auction against sky for it.- It would be to political for BT- its major market is england.

Goodnight, mystir. Try not to have nightmares  

Are you trying to wish nightmares on me or something dude!!

Its just a debate.

mystiroakey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:the sky deal was set in stone dude- the contract was signed based on the ERC continuing as it has before.

if one league opts out- that deal/contract is dead. and a new one needs negotiating.

and obviously the celt nations will probally go for something like a 60/40 split revenue, but sky will only pay a significant  amount less to show a tounry without the the english participating

As I have already stated; SKY, and the Unions will just have to work it out. If it's a new deal to be forged then maybe ERC can expect more considering the BT offer. Seems likely  

About as likely as Ireland beating NZ next week mate..

Or them being beaten last week  

Try and leave the anger out, mystir. No point to it. Again... goodnight

anger- from me.

Nah dont be silly.

Night

I am watching the walking dead though!!

mystiroakey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

increase it without the english

you are joking right?

I doubt they will pay half- obviously everyone would hope for 2/3's of the revenue

But I would bet my house that BT wouldnt get involved in this comp- no one will auction against sky for it.- It would be to political for BT- its major market is england.

According to the PRL, they formally informed Sky that they would not be participating in the ERC tournament prior to Sky signing the agreement with the ERC, so whatever was agreed should stand.

Sky have bought the broadcasting rights to the UK, not just England. I presume you are aware that Edinburgh v Munster made the Top 10 most viewed prog. on Sky (SS2) recently, while Toulouse v Sarries didn't. Rather surprising as well as the EvM game was at lunchtime on a Sunday. Both Munster & Leinster made Top 10 UK ratings in the recent rounds of the HCup. After Harlequins, Leinster & Munster are the most watched games in the UK, beating Tigers & Saracens.

Its doubtful that Sky would act the maggot anyway considering the circumstances - they will also want to broadcast in the the SH countries where the Heineken Cup is very popular.

You paint a very flowery picture of the world of cut throat business mate.

But the reality is below

HC - AP clubs < HC as is

you can substitute AP in the above formula with the french, the rabbo, or just the irish if you want. The formula is still fact

mystiroakey wrote:You paint a very flowery picture of the world of cut throat business mate.

But the reality is below

HC - AP clubs < HC as is

you can substitute AP in the above formula with the french, the rabbo, or just the irish if you want. The formula is still fact.

Nothing flowery about that picture. Sky has a rugby schedule to fill, and they want the rights of the Heineken Cup matches to sell to other markets around the world.

I wouldn't underestimate Sky's ability to put a positive spin on the missing English teams - after all, they had everyone believing at one stage that the Aviva Premiership was the best league in the world. Notice since they have stopped broadcasting it, it would seem that the Top 14 is the 'best' league in the world. Once Sky gets their hands on the Pro 12, it will become the best league in the world too.








[/quote]

Sky dont have to increase their offer in fact they can decrease it if the English do not participate.

My guess is it would go down by something like a 3rd but the shortfall between that and not having to pay the English 24% will be more than made up by the sponsorship of the Pro12.

Bottom line is Pro12 and T14 will not lose out, overall, financially.
In fact both will probably be better off given the pending French TV deal and the Sky sponsorship of the Pro12

Not costing Sky a fortune and it gives them a real opportunity to get one over BT

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:yet another meeting between unions without either rfu, prl or lnr represented. well that's going to accomplish a lot isnt it. sounds like the meeting that ERC arranged 14 months ago where they tried to drive a wedge between LNR and PRL by not inviting PRL.

the ball is in the court of the LNR now. i think they will stonewall him. there is no way Camou is going to be able to dissolve the french league. there will be employment issues, legal issues, political issues (i cant imagine the 200k who watch games live weekly and 2-3m who watch on tv every week are going to be particularly amused).

this is not over by a long shot. and i bet you the people pooping themselves right now are the celtic unions.

quins, that's just making things up now. Legally binding contracts are there for a reason.

December 14 is close

this executive power that camou is threatening to wield dates back to a 1905 authorisation of FFR. It could be changed by president hollande in about 10 seconds.

what does that have to do with legally binding contracts, things which are usually used in transactions? ie in the professional sphere?

maybe i'm missing the point.

Ha, ha - I wouldn't go counting on that, quins, the man is about as decisive as a dead dodo

maestegmafia wrote:

quinsforever wrote:okay. but these are independent professional clubs, so i dont see how a new administrator can force them all to join the ERC? is it then more to do with the authority to negotiate TV rights as is hinted at?

Without FFR backing the LNR have no bargaining power. French law deems so.

An often forgotten point.

If the FFR play hard ball the clubs will fall in line - more money from a French TV deal, a competiton structure that meets their demands - too much to lose. As we know 4 clubs have already broken ranks and if the rumours are true more are wavering

Looking at the attendees at Thursday's meeting it seems to me the Unions will move towards a European competition without England giving them an ultimatum to accept or reject.

mystiroakey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

increase it without the english

you are joking right?

I doubt they will pay half- obviously everyone would hope for 2/3's of the revenue

But I would bet my house that BT wouldnt get involved in this comp- no one will auction against sky for it.- It would be to political for BT- its major market is england.

Hmm, an interesting (English) view of the world there, strokey Are you by any chance related to any of the early empire cartographers?

Unions to meet in Dublin to draw up plans for Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup
Competitions will not include English clubs

FFR president Pierre Camou is resolute in his determination that the Heineken Cup will continue under the auspices of the ERC.

Gerry Thornley

Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 01:00

In another significant development regarding the ongoing impasses over the future of European club rugby, representatives from the French, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian unions will meet in Dublin on Thursday in an attempt to break the current logjam, and to that end will begin drawing up plans for a Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup without the English clubs.

This followed a meeting between representatives of the French Federation (FFR) and Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) in Marcoussis last week to continue discussions regarding a new accord for player release, television rights and so forth. The FFR President Pierre Camou apparently began the meeting by warning the LNR that no new accord will be agreed until such time as the clubs cease talking about joining the Rugby Champions Cup – the breakaway tournament proposed by Premiership Rugby (PRL) – and resolve the future of European competitions. With that, Camou walked out of the room to leave Serge Blanco to chair the meeting.

Having offered the French clubs €2 million apiece for participating in next season’s Heineken Cup, it is understood that Camou has also given the French clubs until early December to return to the ERC fold or else he will begin exploring other means of entering French teams through central contracting with the FFR.

Under French government law, the French clubs cannot join a cross-border competition without the approval of the FFR and IRB, and Camou’s stance has been consistent from the word go.

Founding Unions
When representatives of the six respective founding Unions and Federations of the Heineken Cup conceded to the demands of the English and French clubs at ERC mediation talks on October 24th in Dublin regarding a 20-team tournament format, meritocratic qualification and funding for the Heineken Cup, it was widely if wrongly perceived as a climbdown.

However, the compromises on all of the above came with a hardening of resolve amongst the Unions and Federations that there would be no climbdown on governance of the game and specifically a pan-European tournament. In this they have been backed by the IRB President Bernard Lapasset.

According to yesterday’s Midi Olimpique, the French clubs are now less unified than when the proposed Rugby Champions Cup was first officially announced in September.

It also suggested that several Top 14 presidents have been looking for more information on the FFR’s position re Europe, and are ready to change tack with a view to competing in a European Cup organised by ERC. It also noted LNR has yet to host its proposed press conference in early November outlining plans for the Champions Cup, and that the LNR has been backed into a corner.

Nor do Camou’s actions constitute mere grandstanding. Camou is resolute in his determination that the Heineken Cup will continue under the auspices of the ERC. Furthermore, his insistence that the French remain on board the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup is not purely out of loyalty to the ERC, but a steadfast belief that the Unions and Federations, along with the IRB, maintain governance of the game rather than a new breed of club owner in England and France. Camou, the respective Unions and the ERC board are adamant they will adhere to the Sky TV deal.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/unions-to-meet-in-dublin-to-draw-up-plans-for-heineken-cup-and-amlin-challenge-cup-1.1599260

Beat me to it Sin é - looks like the end game is in sight

One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

Agree that the end game is in sight. I'm not sure it's the result that PRL wanted, but actually it works pretty well for me. I've said since early on that in my view the best thing for English rugby is no European Cup (or at least the Premiership teams, nothing wrong with the B&I cup for those in the Championship) - and that appears to be what is going to happen.

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

increase it without the english

you are joking right?

I doubt they will pay half- obviously everyone would hope for 2/3's of the revenue

But I would bet my house that BT wouldnt get involved in this comp- no one will auction against sky for it.- It would be to political for BT- its major market is england.

According to the PRL, they formally informed Sky that they would not be participating in the ERC tournament prior to Sky signing the agreement with the ERC, so whatever was agreed should stand.

Sky have bought the broadcasting rights to the UK, not just England. I presume you are aware that Edinburgh v Munster made the Top 10 most viewed prog. on Sky (SS2) recently, while Toulouse v Sarries didn't. Rather surprising as well as the EvM game was at lunchtime on a Sunday. Both Munster & Leinster made Top 10 UK ratings in the recent rounds of the HCup. After Harlequins, Leinster & Munster are the most watched games in the UK, beating Tigers & Saracens.

Its doubtful that Sky would act the maggot anyway considering the circumstances - they will also want to broadcast in the the SH countries where the Heineken Cup is very popular.

So are you going to publish any viewing figures or statistics to support your comment? Or do we just have to take what you say as gospel?

Bear in mind that Edinburgh vs Munster got an attendance of 7,000 compared to Saracens vs Toulouse getting an attendance of 61,000.

Just a tiny difference. You might say oh that doesn't matter. Well commercially a basically empty Murrayfield doesn't give as impressive a perception as a 2/3 full Wembley.

geoff998rugby wrote:One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

Really? Don't believe you're that shocked, it's absolutely par for the course!

Big wrote:Agree that the end game is in sight.  I'm not sure it's the result that PRL wanted, but actually it works pretty well for me.  I've said since early on that in my view the best thing for English rugby is no European Cup (or at least the Premiership teams, nothing wrong with the B&I cup for those in the Championship) - and that appears to be what is going to happen.

I can't imagine it's what the RFU or Lancaster would want tho, particularly in the year before RWC? England need their best players playing at the highest level of club rugby possible - and that's European surely?

Stripped down to just rugby. First no indicates their top 10 order on Sky Sports 2.

http://www.barb.co.uk/viewing/weekly-top-10?

w/e 13 Oct 2013
1 HARLEQUINS V SCARLETS (SAT 1534) - 242k
3 EXETER V CARDIFF (SUN 1232) -190k
4 OSPREYS V LEINSTER (SAT 1743) - 157k
5 TOULON V GLASGOW (SUN 1448) - 137k
9 EDINBURGH V MUNSTER (SAT 1300) - 90K

w/e 20 Oct 2013
1 CLERMONT V HARLEQUINS/#HEINEK (SUN 1450) - 187k
2 LEINSTER V CASTRES/#HEINEKEN (SAT 1535) - 171k
3 CARDIFF V TOULON/#HEINEKEN CU (SAT 1300) - 152k
4 NORTHAMPTON V OSPREYS/#HEINEK (SUN 1230) - 146k
5 MUNSTER V GLOUCESTER/#HEINEKE (SAT 1751) - 133k

I don't think Sky will care too much as to how many bums fill seats in Wembley. Just means less viewers for them.

The teams that make Top 10 viewing both weekends are:
The top draws are Harlequins, Leinster, Ospreys, Toulon, Munster.

Surprising that only two British teams would make the Top 10 in a UK combined market (Quins & Ospeys) and two Irish and 1 French team makes it.

I presume Camou's anti-English stance would have won him quite a few followers on these forums.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Big wrote:Agree that the end game is in sight.  I'm not sure it's the result that PRL wanted, but actually it works pretty well for me.  I've said since early on that in my view the best thing for English rugby is no European Cup (or at least the Premiership teams, nothing wrong with the B&I cup for those in the Championship) - and that appears to be what is going to happen.

I can't imagine it's what the RFU or Lancaster would want tho, particularly in the year before RWC?  England need their best players playing at the highest level of club rugby possible - and that's European surely?

Playing Cup rugby is completely different to playing league as well.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

Really? Don't believe you're that shocked, it's absolutely par for the course!

Actually I am shocked to the extent of it
On this matter we might as well be reading Pravada and Investia.
It has been that biased

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Big wrote:Agree that the end game is in sight.  I'm not sure it's the result that PRL wanted, but actually it works pretty well for me.  I've said since early on that in my view the best thing for English rugby is no European Cup (or at least the Premiership teams, nothing wrong with the B&I cup for those in the Championship) - and that appears to be what is going to happen.

I can't imagine it's what the RFU or Lancaster would want tho, particularly in the year before RWC?  England need their best players playing at the highest level of club rugby possible - and that's European surely?

As I've put it elsewhere...

Am I the only one not bothered by the prospect of no European rugby? In fact I'd go a bit further and say not only not bothered, but actually quite looking forward to no European rugby.

I've had a great time going to a number of the European games, the Munster fans in particular were a fantastic bunch.

However, that said I don't think there's room in the season for everything that is going on and something needs to give. You can't have your top players playing 10+ international matches, 22+ league games and 6+ European games - there are anything from 38 to 45 matches depending on how well the team does and how many internationals there are. Our players are stretched too thinly as it is, and in my view dropping the 6 to 9 European matches is a welcome move.

Our senior male player base is about 165,000 broadly comparable to the approximately 180,000 in France, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy combined. If our teams focus fully on the league there is no reason that it cannot be at least as competitive as the Euro compeition without our teams. So I don't think we'll lose out on quality of rugby.

If the players aren't being over-played they may well get fewer injuries - which means we get to see first choice squads more often, and the individuals concerned will probably have longer careers and a less intimate relationship with the physios and docs.

As a big bonus there would be no need for continued clashes between league games and internationals.

Opportunities for player development could be more formalised. LV could be expanded to have a much more sensible qualification process. Still kept as a development tournament, but running through the entirety of the international window giving more game time for fringe players to step up and impress. Of course they will need to step in when injuries and form demand it, but at least it gives them game time that they are well preapared for as well as a run of games to bed in. May well bring in more financially than carrying on in ERC as well...

So for me, I really don't care if there's no European tournament next year. Long term it could really help to improve our domestic game, and in doing so be the best outcome for us. There are still the pre-season friendlies for trips away and meeting with fans from neighbouring countries.

In response to your saying is it what Lancaster etc want. Well, does it really benefit? With my Tigers hat on we get a few more tough games in the European Cup against Ulster and maybe Montpellier (if they haven't lost interest), but because of the league running through the international window we lose what should be really tough matches against the likes of Quins, Gloucester and Exeter. I don't see a huge gain myself. I expect the players would benefit from a bit more rest as well.

beshocked wrote:I presume Camou's anti-English stance would have won him quite a few followers on these forums.

Not really being anti-English, but its hardly surprising that he would have acquired a few admirers for taking on what we regard as the PRL bully boys who did their best to destroy a great competition.

Thank you for the link Sin e. Very useful to proving you wrong!  


http://www.barb.co.uk/viewing/weekly-top-10?


Sky Sports 1
w/e 20 Oct 2013
000's
1 LIVE FORD SUPER SUNDAY (SUN 1530) 1,389
2 FORD SATURDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL-LIVE (SAT 1701) 752
3 FL72 LIVE-LEEDS V BIRMINGHAM (SUN 1300) 544
4 FL72 LIVE - BLACKPOOL V WIGAN (SAT 1200) 300
5 GILLETTE SOCCER SATURDAY 09-10 (SAT 1500) 274
6 LIVE WCQ:SCOTLAND V CROATIA (TUE 1930) 251
7 GOALS ON SUNDAY (SUN 1100) 193
8 LIVE RUGBY- SARACENS V TOULOUSE/#HEINEKE (FRI 1900 174
9 REAL BETIS V ELCHE-LIVE/#REAL BETIS V EL (SUN 1830 148
10 SNF - GAME OF THE DAY (SAT 2000) 126


As you can see Saracens got 174k which is greater than all teams bar Clermont-Quins on Sky Sports 2.




Sky Sports 2
w/e 20 Oct 2013
000's
1 LIVE RUGBY-CLERMONT V HARLEQUINS/#HEINEK (SUN 1450 187
2 LIVE RUGBY-LEINSTER V CASTRES/#HEINEKEN (SAT 1535) 171
3 LIVE RUGBY-CARDIFF V TOULON/#HEINEKEN CU (SAT 1300 152
4 LIVE RUGBY-NORTHAMPTON V OSPREYS/#HEINEK (SUN 1230 146
5 LIVE RUGBY-MUNSTER V GLOUCESTER/#HEINEKE (SAT 1751 133
6 LIVE NFL-CINCINNATI DETROIT/#NFL WEEK 7 (SUN 1731 94
7 LIVE NFL-HOUSTON KANSAS/#NFL WEEK 7 - H (SUN 2121 70
8 TIGHT LINES/#TIGHT LINES # 20 (FRI 1901) 50
9 SPEEDWAY-BRITISH FINAL (MON 1930) 44
10 WWE AFTERBURN (SUN 0830) 39
Sky Sports 3

geoff998rugby wrote:One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

I was surprised that RFU allowed BBC such bias in favour of PRL at first, but then when I got to thinking that RFU were completely behind PRL in this it made sense, although still disappointing journalism from BBC as it's not exactly fact based, or objective.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

increase it without the english

you are joking right?

I doubt they will pay half- obviously everyone would hope for 2/3's of the revenue

But I would bet my house that BT wouldnt get involved in this comp- no one will auction against sky for it.- It would be to political for BT- its major market is england.

Hmm, an interesting (English) view of the world there, strokey  Are you by any chance related to any of the early empire cartographers?

NO but what i have is a brain and understand business(unlike some!!) As mentioned after- take out the french, take out the rabbo, it doesnt matter- this tournement is worse off AND WORTH LESS!!!!!

Stop the xenaphobic nonsense

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:You paint a very flowery picture of the world of cut throat business mate.

But the reality is below

HC - AP clubs < HC as is

you can substitute AP in the above formula with the french, the rabbo, or just the irish if you want. The formula is still fact.

Nothing flowery about that picture. Sky has a rugby schedule to fill, and they want the rights of the Heineken Cup matches to sell to other markets around the world.

I wouldn't underestimate Sky's ability to put a positive spin on the missing English teams - after all, they had everyone believing at one stage that the Aviva Premiership was the best league in the world. Notice since they have stopped broadcasting it, it would seem that the Top 14 is the 'best' league in the world. Once Sky gets their hands on the Pro 12, it will become the best league in the world too.

[/quote]
You clearly misunderstand how and why things are worth what they are.. But ok live in your flowery meadow.

Look mate it doesnt matter what swky tell its viewers after. Its about a bargaining position and want from the off. the ERC is selling them LESS!!!!!

If the English clubs have no HC or RCC next season how much money will McCafferty and the PRL lost the English game?

mystiroakey wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

increase it without the english

you are joking right?

I doubt they will pay half- obviously everyone would hope for 2/3's of the revenue

But I would bet my house that BT wouldnt get involved in this comp- no one will auction against sky for it.- It would be to political for BT- its major market is england.

Hmm, an interesting (English) view of the world there, strokey  Are you by any chance related to any of the early empire cartographers?

NO but what i have is a brain and understand business(unlike some!!) As mentioned after- take out the french, take out the rabbo, it doesnt matter- this tournement is worse off AND WORTH LESS!!!!!

Stop the xenaphobic nonsense

I don't think anyone is disputing that the HEC would be worth less without one of PRL, LNR or Rabo, mystir, but that being worth less does not have to mean less money for the remaining participants. I would say that SKY would be very unlikely to offer less to Rabo or LNR.

If the AP doesnt play in the HC it wont get HC money.

On it goes...on it goes.

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

increase it without the english

you are joking right?

I doubt they will pay half- obviously everyone would hope for 2/3's of the revenue

But I would bet my house that BT wouldnt get involved in this comp- no one will auction against sky for it.- It would be to political for BT- its major market is england.

Hmm, an interesting (English) view of the world there, strokey  Are you by any chance related to any of the early empire cartographers?

NO but what i have is a brain and understand business(unlike some!!) As mentioned after- take out the french, take out the rabbo, it doesnt matter- this tournement is worse off AND WORTH LESS!!!!!

Stop the xenaphobic nonsense

I don't think anyone is disputing that the HEC would be worth less without one of PRL, LNR or Rabo, mystir, but that being worth less does not have to mean less money for the remaining participants. I would say that SKY would be very unlikely to offer less to Rabo or LNR.

This brings up quite a major point though doesnt it.

Say SKY play fair and say ok this tourny is worth less- but we will agree to pay you what you(ERC) would have paid the two leagues anyway(66.6% of the orignal amount)

You all do understand that this 3rd split was based on BT coming in(much more money_

If the Rabbo only get a 3rd split of sky's original offer they are well down!!- because they used to get over a half!!)