Should Britain really be asking for CSKA Moscow to be banned ??

First topic message reminder :

I notice that people are asking for the referee in the City game to be banned and CSKA to be thrown out of Europe.......I'm a City fan and I find it amusing the double standard............

All I hear Is that "we" still have a racism problem int he UK at football grounds..........In the last year or two we've seen John Terry the England captain found guilty on a racism charge......

We've seen anti-sematic behaviour at West Ham.............

As soon as another Country does something naughty well that's it!! Ban them..........

I love Britain....... but It's always everybody elses fault..

My opinion let him without sin cast the first stone.......

Remember the World championships when the 400 relay team cheated "Let's hope they don't notice"....Gabby Yorath..

Get your house in order before you moan about anybody else..........The persecution complex don't wash.

compelling and rich wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Type in "Yaya Toure Racism" on youtube, second video down - there's the evidence you require.

Firstly that is proof you never even watched the game and you just found that video now to try and back your point up.

secondly I already posted that video and there are no monkey chants, it is just football fans clapping their hands like what happens at every game in every country.

Correct, I didn't watch the game in question. Then, I never said I did. I heard about the racism by reading about it on the internet, and then SSN showed a clip of it - which is what I just linked you to.

And come now, you can clearly hear some monkey noises on that video.

oops sorry I thought tophat posted that comment which is why I said about not watching it.

I don't see any monkey noises I just see fans clapping and making noise like at every game. The sound of the video is not clear but a major reason why I don't think it is monkey chants is because no one is doing any monkey actions with their body which is what happenes whenever people make monkey chants.

you wouldn't see monkey noises, no your right. perhaps that's your problem. perhaps if you listened for them you might have better luck

        

compelling and rich wrote:i watched the game in question but the thing is with this football malarkey they normally concentrate on that round ball being kicked around that big green thing. i tried looking in the crowd but pretty restricted because those pesky camera men were more interested in football would you believe?!

but since then SSN have shown few videos where you can distinctively hear monkey noises, and uefa have punished them for it. whats left to argue here?!

Like I said if monkey noises were proven (and more proof then just an unclear youtube video) then by all means punish. But from what I have seen and HEARD cannot be proven beyond all reasonable doubt as monkey noises. UEFA may have access to more cameras/ microphones when they had their case but the youtbube video posted is not clear at all. Toure said it was monkey noises like oooh ooh ooh and CSKA said it was booing which sounds like boo boo boo, there are no monkey actions with the body which would be used as evidence to confirm it was monkey chants and not booing.

i think the big thing in uefa will have been what the ref and linesman heard, yaya said he could hear them so i presume the ref did. a lot will have gone on what the people in the ground heard, and according to uefa they have enough evidence to punish cska

C_S (chris_dior) you've been proven wrong beyond any reasonable, as a lawyer I'm sure you love my turn of phrase.

compelling and rich wrote:i think the big thing in uefa will have been what the ref and linesman heard, yaya said he could hear them so i presume the ref did. a lot will have gone on what the people in the ground heard, and according to uefa they have enough evidence to punish cska

UEFA have access to far more evidence than a few posters on here who branded people as guilty based on the allegation of 1 person.

Would be interesting to hear UEFA's evidence etc and their verdict, as far as I have read they have not disclosed what the racist actions were, whether it was booing toure or monkey chanting etc.

Regarding the punichment, UEFA have to follow the procedure of partial closure for a first offence etc. The punishment for CSKA actually punishes MAN city, who toure plays for because cska are facing Munich for their next home game and cska will have less fans supporting them against munich. MAn city are battling munich for group winners.

I've branded CSKA "guilty" because UEFA carried out an investigation, and deemed them to be so. That's all I need.

Duty281 wrote:I've branded CSKA "guilty" because UEFA carried out an investigation, and deemed them to be so. That's all I need.

By that very same token we must brand John Terry as 'not guilty' because a court of law said so.

We can label cska as guilty now because they have been proven to be guilty by UEFA, I was talking about before the verdict was given tophat was sayng they are guilty etc and this is noot how a democracy works. No one is guilty until they have had a fair trial in a court of law where evidence can be examined and the prosecutiona and defence have the opportunity to state their case.

don't think its that punishing for city, they still have to go to bayern away and get a result if there going to top the group and having seen the the leg at city i highly doubt they can

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I've branded CSKA "guilty" because UEFA carried out an investigation, and deemed them to be so. That's all I need.

By that very same token we must brand John Terry as 'not guilty' because a court of law said so.

We can label cska as guilty now because they have been proven to be guilty by UEFA, I was talking about before the verdict was given tophat was sayng they are guilty etc and this is noot how a democracy works. No one is guilty until they have had a fair trial in a court of law where evidence can be examined and the prosecutiona and defence have the opportunity to state their case.

Well I don't think John Terry is guilty either - he's not a racist, but that's another thread entirely!

compelling and rich wrote:don't think its that punishing for city, they still have to go to bayern away and get a result if there going to top the group and having seen the the leg at city i highly doubt they can

Personally I think city will finish 2nd, however the punishment against cska is doing city no favours at all because it makes munich's trip to cska a lot easier as cska will have less fans in the stadium supporting their team.

I don't think Bayern struggle to beat CSKA regardless of how many fans are there so it wont really effect City at all, they need to concentrate on their game in Munich.

Ridiculous punishment.

Closing one section of the ground. What is that even gonna achieve? Do they really think the racists will be like "oh can't go, closed down our section"!!

This is just beyond ridiculous from UEFA. Awful punishment

Olly wrote:Ridiculous punishment.

Closing one section of the ground. What is that even gonna achieve? Do they really think the racists will be like "oh can't go, closed down our section"!!

This is just beyond ridiculous from UEFA. Awful punishment

What punishment do you propose?

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Olly wrote:Ridiculous punishment.

Closing one section of the ground. What is that even gonna achieve? Do they really think the racists will be like "oh can't go, closed down our section"!!

This is just beyond ridiculous from UEFA. Awful punishment

What punishment do you propose?

Any money the club gets from the Champions League via sponsorship, prize money etc should be withheld and they should be forced to play European games behind closed doors for at least a season.

A heavy fine and being forced to playing behind closed doors and beyond that having to play at a neutral ground.

Olly wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Olly wrote:Ridiculous punishment.

Closing one section of the ground. What is that even gonna achieve? Do they really think the racists will be like "oh can't go, closed down our section"!!

This is just beyond ridiculous from UEFA. Awful punishment

What punishment do you propose?

Any money the club gets from the Champions League via sponsorship, prize money etc should be withheld and they should be forced to play European games behind closed doors for at least a season.

I personally don't think any punishment against the club will stop racism in football. Individuals are racist more than they are football fans. playing games behind closed doors will not eradicate racism in football it will just stop the platform that racists can use to spout their hate. Problem is if that if you close the platform at cska for 1 or 2 games or even a season as soon as that platform opens again the racists will be back. If you close the platform permanently by banning cska indefinately and allow for eg zenit to take their place in europe then the racists from zenit will have a platform. These fans are ultra racists and they would risk their clubs progression in Europe in order to be racist.

If you ban a club from Europe due to a minority of fans being racist then you are also punishing the majority who probably detest racism.

You need to punish the individuals and not the club if you want to eradicate racism. Very easy to use cctv in the stadium and seating numbers to identify who was racist, UEFA can then order the club to ban that member from attending games and also the police can get involved and punish the racist.

You have to factor in the players here Dior, if you're Yaya Toure i'm damn sure you'd rather play in an empty stadium with no chance of racist chanting than having to put up with it waiting for retrospective action.

Sky Sports are reporting that CSKA will have one section of their stadium closed for their next match. Yes, folks.... it's slap on the wrist time again.

The fact that action is being taken at all suggests there is a case to answer, and therefore stronger action should be taken. Closing one section doesn't really send out any message and won't stop the racists from doing what they do. They'll just move to a different section for that one game.

The referee has been exonerated for the way he handled the incident. City had been unhappy that he hadn't insisted on an announcement being made during the game, or the players taken off.

UEFA's anti-racist policy must surely be seen as little more than a joke in Eastern Europe.

I see it like this

The Heysel ban made English football deal with the problem of hooliganism. UEFA need to do the same with this issue or it continues.

Something along those lines needs to happen.

Olly wrote:I see it like this

The Heysel ban made English football deal with the problem of hooliganism. UEFA need to do the same with this issue or it continues.

Something along those lines needs to happen.

Exactly Olly.

If CSKA were thrown out of European competition next season as their punishment, it would force them to come down hard on the racist element of their fans.

One closed section for one game has probably been met with a shrug of the shoulders. No change.

Duty281 wrote:

Olly wrote:I see it like this

The Heysel ban made English football deal with the problem of hooliganism. UEFA need to do the same with this issue or it continues.

Something along those lines needs to happen.

Exactly Olly.

If CSKA were thrown out of European competition next season as their punishment, it would force them to come down hard on the racist element of their fans.

One closed section for one game has probably been met with a shrug of the shoulders. No change.

Why doesn't UEFA just order CSKA to identify the racist fans using cctv and seat number and membership details etc and ban them? Clubs in the UK ban fans all the time for racist/bad behaviour using cctv etc at games.

We want racist fans to have no access to games so the best way to do that is to ban those racist fans directly.

You do that and then at the next game a few more pop up so you're never really solving the problem long term.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You do that and then at the next game a few more pop up so you're never really solving the problem long term.

that is the key issue here, long term. How do we solve racism in the long run in certain countries?

Ban them and let them know you're taking the issue seriously, banning individuals is of course a must be it doesn't solve the bigger problem only the isolated issue.

Zero tolerance. Heavy punishments.

Punish the club heavily. Million pound fines. Exclusion from European competitions. Closed door games. Points deductions.

You'll be surprised then at how quickly clubs like CSKA will want to the tackle the problem of racism at their club.

Of course it always will be difficult for Russian clubs, what with their government's questionable stance on a lot of things.

How did clubs like Millwall sort out their hooligan/racist fans who used to run riot?

Champagne_Socialist wrote:How did clubs like Millwall sort out their hooligan/racist fans who used to run riot?

They haven't, well, not entirely.

What was done was only partly due to Millwall FC, who had long since given up the ghost on controlling their fans by the late 1980s.  Then the government passed legislation which enabled the police to take a much more proactive role in dealing with known offenders.  Prison sentences, banning orders and forcing known hooligans to attend at police stations at kick off times on match days, on risk of arrest, prosecution and possible imprisonment if they didn't, had a heck of a sobering effect on many who hadn't yet been caught.   They saw which way the wind was blowing and realised this wasn't just the big laugh they had hitherto treated it as and a lot of the more serious violence withered on the vine.   It still occurs sporadically (as at last season's FA Cup semi final) and of course, there is still 'opportunist' violence.  I pity the poor sod who gets caught in the wrong place at the wrong time by these nasty so-and-so's when there isn't a police presence nearby.

Not only these measures are in place, but the police set up an counter hooligan unit and used undercover operatives to infiltrate gangs and gather intelligence.   Mobile phone traffic is monitored so that police can be forewarned of inter-gang arrangements to meet up for a fight.  CCTV has been a very effective tool in combatting hooliganism. Millwall FC co-operated with the police and with good co-ordination between the two, a lot of people got their collars felt, and the violence was greatly reduced.

All sorts of methods have been used to suppress violence, and still some get through the net.... some outbreaks still occur.  Eradicating hooliganism entirely, with a club like Millwall, is an impossible task, but it can be reduced and offenders prosecuted.  I suppose that is the best we can hope for.

But all this occurred with government action and a police service motivated to dealing with the issues.  Neither of these things exists in Russia.  The government doesn't give a damn... indeed, the attitude of the Russian government towards race and other issues such as homophobia  (which even the generally enlightened British haven't even begun to get a handle on yet) almost encourages the situations that we see all too often at Russian stadia.  

The Russian police certainly don't give a toss about racism.  They're little more than hooligans themselves.  If there is an outbreak of fighting in their stadiums, they just pile in with the riot batons and tear gas.  They're happy to steam in, give somebody a kicking and leave it at that.  

So, there you have it.  On the one hand, Britain has been able to do something, because there is the political will backing up an organised and effective police organisation.  On the other, hand, a don't give a damn attitude at government level with a police service right out of the dark ages.

Nothing is going to happen in Russian football unless UEFA gets a grip.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Olly wrote:I see it like this

The Heysel ban made English football deal with the problem of hooliganism. UEFA need to do the same with this issue or it continues.

Something along those lines needs to happen.

Exactly Olly.

If CSKA were thrown out of European competition next season as their punishment, it would force them to come down hard on the racist element of their fans.

One closed section for one game has probably been met with a shrug of the shoulders. No change.

Why doesn't UEFA just order CSKA to identify the racist fans using cctv and seat number and membership details etc and ban them? Clubs in the UK ban fans all the time for racist/bad behaviour using cctv etc at games.

We want racist fans to have no access to games so the best way to do that is to ban those racist fans directly.

Where's the stick to accompany the carrot?

What your proposal (always) fails to address is motivation. It's obvious from CSKA's response that they don't think there's anything wrong with what their fans do and have no interest in doing anything about it. Therefore they won't - which is why they need something to motivate them to do. Punishment, particularly in a form that damages revenues, is a very powerful motivated. Simply telling kids to play nicely has never got anyone anywhere.

You said you studied law, so think of it like the creation of time of essence in a contract. A threat without punishment is meaningless, unless a time constraint/parameter in a contract comes with an 'or else', it is meaningless.

Don't the rules state that this is the first punishment? If it happens again its behind closed doors entirely in their next game? I think the rules state it starts with the one section and then moves on if there are further instances. I actually think that's reasonable.

russians at it again last night, flares, kicking off and swastikas in the crowd. gays and blacks wont be welcome at the world cup. what a wonderful decision by fifa to give them the tournament.

does anybody believe the BS about wanting to move the cup around that fifa feed and not think its simply who's willing to give the biggest brown envelopes

qatar and russia both terrible choices yet both bit of money backing them. imagine the up roar if half the things happening in russia happened over here

biggest brown envelopes, not even a question. Qatar confirmed it.

CS really has out done himself on this thread. It's like that time he referenced an article about an old man who admitted to being a drunkard as proof that white people don't have a future in South Africa. Now video evidence is irrelevant because that only proves a person wasn't at the game.

Puts things in sharp focus. Has Russia actually fixed the issue of transportation for 2018? Russia is a huge place, just seems a logistical nightmare. Gets worse if you have to start creating alternative routes so Asian/African fans avoid attacks. Just hope this doesn't end up with FIFA having South Africa as the stand-by for all future world cups, like the ICC do - cant stand being second choice.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Don't the rules state that this is the first punishment? If it happens again its behind closed doors entirely in their next game? I think the rules state it starts with the one section and then moves on if there are further instances. I actually think that's reasonable.

Yeh the punishments are set it is reasonable in some circumstances and not in others, depends on the nature of the crime but all crimes seem to have the same punishment.

compelling and rich wrote:russians at it again last night, flares, kicking off and swastikas in the crowd. gays and blacks wont be welcome at the world cup. what a wonderful decision by fifa to give them the tournament.

does anybody believe the BS about wanting to move the cup around that fifa feed and not think its simply who's willing to give the biggest brown envelopes

qatar and russia both terrible choices yet both bit of money backing them. imagine the up roar if half the things happening in russia happened over here

I hope that at least some major footballing nations boycott the 2018 and 2022 World Cups.

Duty281 wrote:

compelling and rich wrote:russians at it again last night, flares, kicking off and swastikas in the crowd. gays and blacks wont be welcome at the world cup. what a wonderful decision by fifa to give them the tournament.

does anybody believe the BS about wanting to move the cup around that fifa feed and not think its simply who's willing to give the biggest brown envelopes

qatar and russia both terrible choices yet both bit of money backing them. imagine the up roar if half the things happening in russia happened over here

I hope that at least some major footballing nations boycott the 2018 and 2022 World Cups.

i hope the teams all attend but the fans stay at home.

Why?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Why?

If England boycott the tournament then the fans of England are punished and some other team will just take the place of England. If England compete but the fans boycott then the fans still get to see England play on TV and FIFA are punished as they will lose money as there will be less fans buying tickets, buying merchandise and less sponsorship money etc.

FIFA only care about making money, they are a business conning people that they are putting football first when they are putting their wallets first. Punish FIFA by reducing their income.

All it means is more Russians buying tickets and fans of other countries, the tickets would be sold one way or another. Earlier on you said that punishing CSKA was also punishing City, so a fan boycott would surely have an adverse effect on the England team using your logic.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:All it means is more Russians buying tickets and fans of other countries, the tickets would be sold one way or another. Earlier on you said that punishing CSKA was also punishing City, so a fan boycott would surely have an adverse effect on the England team using your logic.

The tickets would not all be sold, plenty of WC games where the stadiums have been half empty.

What would have a more adverse effect on Englands chances at the WC, a fan boycott or a team boycott?

Can you provide me any evidence of half empty stadiums in any world cup game this century?

A fan boycott, you earlier stated that CSKA Moscow having less fans would provide Bayern Munich with a better chance of winning. Therefore the England team would surely have a lesser chance of winning with fewer fans supporting them?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Can you provide me any evidence of half empty stadiums in any world cup game this century?

A fan boycott, you earlier stated that CSKA Moscow having less fans would provide Bayern Munich with a better chance of winning. Therefore the England team would surely have a lesser chance of winning with fewer fans supporting them?

Once again what would damage the england teams chances of winning most, the team boycotting the tournament or the fans boycotting?

Also if you want to debate with me do it for a reason other than just because you want to debate with me, it becomes tiresome having you follow me on these boards just seeking a response.

I've asked two questions in response to your proposal and you seem unable to answer them, you can't answer a question with another question.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I've asked two questions in response to your proposal and you seem unable to answer them, you can't answer a question with another question.

You are just looking for an argument you are not looking for anything else. Go argue with catchweight on the boxing forum and let him call you an old grandad again.

I'm asking a genuine question which you are clearly unable to answer, got yourself into a tangled web and can't get out of it. You seem to see things that aren't there.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm asking a genuine question which you are clearly unable to answer, got yourself into a tangled web and can't get out of it. You seem to see things that aren't there.

You are asking me to explain why the penalty imposed on cska for racially abusing a man city player which will indirectly punish the complaining party (man city) is different from English fans voluntarily boycotting the WC in Russia or Qatar in a protest against corruption.

I'm asking you why the effect will different.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm asking you why the effect will different.

You are just looking for an opportunity to argue with me.

One is indirectly imposed as a consequence of complaining against being wronged, the other is self-imposed as a stance against corruption.

Both may create the effect of having less fans but you are comparing apples and pears because my complaint against cska's punishment was that the victim or the complaining party (man city) are also being punished (indirectly) as a consequence of being wronged.



We could also debate about whether there would be less ENgland fans at the WC if English England fans boycotted. A large percentage of tickets are given to business/corporate fans and a large percentage are given to the locals so it would depend largely on who the locals support as to whether England would have any support. One can only presume that if England are given 25% for eg of tickets but return those tickets due to the boycott that those tickets would go to locals and not the fans of the opposing team, and thus the team the locals support would be the 'home team' in essence. But all of this is not something I have the time of day to debate about, all very hypothetical.

In short deciphering all that gobbledygook, english fans boycotting would effect the england team using your logic so would have no real benefit to it.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:In short deciphering all that gobbledygook, english fans boycotting would effect the england team using your logic so would have no real benefit to it.

Just proved my point you are looking for an argument. You tried to compare my previous post to another post and failed miserably as both posts are arguing against different things. One is arguing against the victim being punished whilst the other is arguing for the fans to take action and 'strike' to tackle corruption.

Which would have the same effect on Man City and England, you seem unable to debate anything without bleating on about any poster wanting an argument. Would be far easier if you just answered the questions that are posed instead of reverting to type.