Sebastien Vettel - Time to give credit where it's due

I came across this earlier and figured a lot of you on here could learn from this.

Has any driver in history been so heavily criticised as Sebastian Vettel simply for doing his job so brilliantly?

His performances during the past four seasons have been nothing short of stunning. At the age of 26 and with only six and a half years in Formula 1 under his belt, he is already a quadruple world champion and ranked among the greats in terms of wins (behind only Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna). He's also the third most successful qualifier. But those numbers tell only part of the story.
Vettel's crime is the heinous one of having the best car under him and exploiting it ruthlessly. To put it another way, he is doing exactly what every racing driver who ever starts out on the road to grand prix racing aims to achieve.

Without question, the Red Bull has been the car of choice on the balance of this season, just as it was in 2011, even though it was not until after the August break that the team hit truly dominant form. But in both 2010 and 2012 he had to fight hard to recover from a long way down in the points, seizing the championship with strong late-season performances. Easy? Hardly.

Take Brazil last year. Vettel played a big part in putting himself into the position where he spun on the first lap after contact with Bruno Senna and was then collected. But his comeback drive, in a hobbled car, leaning on a machine that he had every reason to expect was on the brink of failure in those early recovery laps, was the stuff of legend.

The ongoing debate about whether the driver or the car is the most important part of the competitive equation is a fatuous one. Motorsport has always been about the combination of the two.

A driver cannot change the laws of physics to make a mediocre car into a winner - all they can do is extract the maximum from it. The greats do that with a regularity beyond the 'average' grand prix driver (who is still, by any measure, hugely able).

Likewise, given how competitive modern F1 is, a merely decent driver in the best car will usually struggle to win the title, and given how tight the competition is these days, will likely fail in F1.

What must not be underestimated is the contribution a great driver makes to the best car. Watch Vettel in slower corners and you will see quite how brilliantly proactive he can be.

Senna is lauded for the way he blipped the throttle to keep the turbo spooled up ready for the moment the power was fed in. In a similar way, Vettel is able to provoke the rear of the car to perfection, summoning the exhaust-blowing effect to create downforce when he needs it without ever getting the car too out of shape. This is a fine art and one that is beyond even as good a driver as Mark Webber.

To be able to do this, first you must have a car under you that responds to such a technique; but it's just one example of how Vettel ensures that a car is able to lap at the extremes of its performance envelope.

Once mindlessly criticised for not being able to overtake, his recent campaigns have been littered with key manoeuvres, particularly early in the race or after his first pitstop, that have made his path to victory so much easier. Often over the past four years, key overtaking moves have allowed him to boss the race rather than play catch-up.

This aspect of his game has become critical given Red Bull's philosophy of setting the car up for peak lap-time rather than straightline speed. Some of these passes are genuine do-or-die moments where the driver has to make the difference between winning or finishing second or third.

Vettel also has a tremendous work ethic. Like all the best elite sportspeople, he leaves no stone unturned and does not buy into the idea that he can simply drive around problems.

Generally, he learns from his mistakes. In China last year, he switched to an earlier version of the Red Bull's rear end because he did not like the handling characteristics of the new one.

That weekend, Adrian Newey focused far more on Webber's car and Vettel struggled. He realised that he simply had to adapt. So he did.
But let's face it, the critics are less interested in what Vettel has done than what he hasn't done. After his initial success, he has not found himself struggling in a less competitive car, as Fernando Alonso is currently doing and Michael Schumacher did in his early days with Ferrari. Why? Because he's still enjoying his early success.

Over the coming years, there is certain to be a point where Vettel is in a car that's less competitive than his current one. The characteristics he has shown during the past four seasons will stand him in good stead when that happens. But it's unfair to criticise a driver who is still relatively early in his career for not having gone through this phase.

It is true he's not gone up against a true superstar team-mate. While he has ticked the box of greatness by making an extremely good team-mate in Webber look pretty ordinary, we've not seen him up against a fellow world champion.

Such a partnership would be mouth-watering and every F1 fan would love to see it. But make no mistake, such pairings are rare. Next year's Alonso / Kimi Raikkonen alliance at Ferrari is only the sixth time two drivers with world titles to their name have been team-mates.

Related to this criticism is the fact that he's the lead driver at Red Bull. Certainly, he is. And on performance. Winning in F1 is so difficult that you can rest assured, were Webber better than Vettel, he would become the focal point. Likewise if Daniel Ricciardo jumps in the car next year and is consistently faster, Red Bull is not going to compromise its own results to make Vettel look better.

But many of these challenges are to come for Vettel. His chief crime appears to be that people are rushing to judgement based not only on what he hasn't done, but what he has not had the opportunity to do. Look at the detail, the way he has capitalised on having the best car (but not by any means a car with as big an advantage as many of the greats enjoyed at times), and you see a master at work.

It's perfectly acceptable to reserve judgement on his greatness until he moves through a wider range of circumstances, and his status will constantly be re-evaluated and examined as his career goes on. But to suggest he is somehow unworthy of his recent success is nonsensical.

It has been a great privilege to have covered Vettel's (first?) Four world championships as a journalist for AUTOSPORT. The way he conducts himself off-track, his virtuosity on it and his ability to nail it when it really matters leave no doubt that he is a true great, and when he faces other challenges in his career, he will no doubt conquer them.

What is a shame is that people are so quick to deride achievement. Vettel has become a force of nature. As relentless as Alonso and as brilliant a qualifier as Senna. In decades to come, people will envy those of us who had the chance to watch him at work just as today those of us who are too young to have watched Jackie Stewart or Jim Clark in their pomp do.

Then, of course, there is the elephant in the room - Vettel's character. Frankly, the way he is perceived in the wider world is an extraordinary distortion of reality. He has always been unfailingly polite, humble and courteous in his dealings with AUTOSPORT, and is loved within his team. This is a driver who combines brilliance on-track with affability off it. Yet the way he is portrayed in some quarters is nothing short of slanderous.

Yes, he made a spectacular misjudgement when he rode roughshod over team orders and passed Webber to win in Malaysia this year. That reflected badly on him and is a negative as far as a character reference goes, but that one incident has been used as validation for every other claim about his conduct and behaviour, no matter how spurious.

After all, he has never deliberately driven into championship rivals to his own advantage as several others around him near the top of the world championships list did. He's also avoided engaging in the kind of mind games and tricks designed to gain the upper hand within a team favoured by some other drivers.

There is no doubt Vettel is a great; you can see it in the way he works, the way he handles the car, the way he interacts with the team. Yes, there has been the odd mistake, but that's the case for every driver , particularly given how close the competition is today.
Where he figures in that pantheon can only be decided once his career is done and dusted. Certainly, next year, with its new regulations, will be a fresh challenge entirely and the chance to see how he adapts to a new style of driving and perhaps even an uncompetitive car.
But make no mistake, he is among the greats already. The question still to be answered is where exactly he figures.

Very good article, it's pretty much how I see it.

I'd draw out one aspect for special attention: the character assassination of a guy whose crime it seems is to share nationality with Schumacher. The easy nickname of baby Scumi requires a similar character, and many - including some on here - persist in that in defiance of the facts. The guy is humble (his gesture to the car yesterday wasn't exactly arrogant was it?) and even his most heinous offence (not driving into an opponent like Prost, Senna or Schumacher but passing against orders) was something he'd earlier accepted from his teammate at Silverstone. I've never heard his critics credit him with maturity and fairness over that race, it's as if they can't face up to his attitude them because it utterly destroys their preferred image.

On his driving, he was good enough to be Champion in 2010 and he's improved every year. Vettel 2013 is incomparable to his 2010 self and I think he's going to get even better.

I have not read anyone not give him credit. I have read that the package between red bull and vetell is far superior to any other package in f1. The guy is clearly a very talented driver. But is he that superior to others around today such as Hamilton Alonso and Kimi, I am not sure and no one days because you cannot compare apple's and oranges. Same as you cannot compare seb to any previous driver. He has more titles then senna does that make him better? No one knows. Senza drove in a different type of car and all the old drivers something even more different.

All you can say is Sebs talent and the machinery he has makes him the dominant force over the last 4 years and no one should say it isn't deserved.

Still can't seem to take to him as a person though. But thats a personal thing and nothing to do with his driving.

Have said this many times and will say it again - nobody is arguing that Vettel isn't the best at what he does - but IMO he needs to either show what he can do/develop in different cars - a bit like Alex Ferguson rebuilding ManU numerous times - or he becomes embroiled in some fierce career defining rivalries. The former is a bit dificult at the moment simply because no driver is ever going to leave a winning car BUT there is nothing stopping the latter. It's down to the other teams to do the business but it's also why I can't be dealing with listening to Horners spounting - if his man was so good then why knock back ALL of the other top 3 drivers in the sport who have vied for a seat on the other side of the garage? The reason for this is obvious, the more the records tumble the more reputation there is to lose - the doubters suspect its the car - a defeat by an Alonso or a Hamilton and then they know it always was the car so in a way it's understandable. In the end its for Vettel to decide - he could be up there but I for one need to see more. And I know I'm not the only one.

SteveG wrote:Have said this many times and will say it again - nobody is arguing that Vettel isn't the best at what he does - but IMO he needs to either show what he can do/develop in different cars - a bit like Alex Ferguson rebuilding ManU numerous times - or he becomes embroiled in some fierce career defining rivalries. The former is a bit dificult at the moment simply because no driver is ever going to leave a winning car BUT there is nothing stopping the latter. It's down to the other teams to do the business but it's also why I can't be dealing with listening to Horners spounting - if his man was so good then why knock back ALL of the other top 3 drivers in the sport who have vied for a seat on the other side of the garage? The reason for this is obvious, the more the records tumble the more reputation there is to lose - the doubters suspect its the car - a defeat by an Alonso or a Hamilton and then they know it always was the car so in a way it's understandable. In the end its for Vettel to decide - he could be up there but I for one need to see more. And I know I'm not the only one.

Exactly the point I have made on a number of occasions.  

Agree. Vettel lovers will just state that having a Hamilton or Alonso at RB is not how you succeed in F1 nowadays. Also how much impact did Vettel have in the choice of Ricciardo, I don't think there's evidence to suggest Vettel didnt want a top driver alongside him, more like RB were protecting their prized asset from having his reputation blown to pieces or cracks to appear. Perfectly understandable.

Vettel's driven brilliantly over the years & congrats to him. Perfect combination really of a car built to his needs n style & a majorly inferior teammate. Is he streets ahead or better than Alonso or Hamilton, not in my or the vast majority of the paddock's opinion. It's a case of a good driver, maturing & improving over time & having the perfect luck & timing of joining RB at the start of a dominating era & taking full advantage of it.

"Sebastien Vettel - Time to give credit where it's due "

Certainly - That Adrian Newey bloke is a blinking genius at designing and building fantastic racing cars  

More seriously, clearly Vettel has done a great job over the last 4 seasons in maximising the potential of the car, and has been better (plus more 'lucky' in terms of mechanical failures) than Webber (who should have won the title in 2010). I doubt that anyone else would have done a better job in qualifying the RB at the front and then driving off into the distance during the race, which are surely two of the main requirements to be a great championship driver - Sennaesque (or perhaps Mansell-esque) brilliance may be good for picking up wins against the odds, but winning multiple titles is to a large extent about consistency as well as brilliance.

I still have my doubts that as an overall racer Seb is any better than Hamilton or Alonso, but he is certainly making the most of the opportunities that his current employer is providing.

SteveG wrote:Have said this many times and will say it again - nobody is arguing that Vettel isn't the best at what he does - but IMO he needs to either show what he can do/develop in different cars - a bit like Alex Ferguson rebuilding ManU numerous times - or he becomes embroiled in some fierce career defining rivalries. The former is a bit dificult at the moment simply because no driver is ever going to leave a winning car BUT there is nothing stopping the latter. It's down to the other teams to do the business but it's also why I can't be dealing with listening to Horners spounting - if his man was so good then why knock back ALL of the other top 3 drivers in the sport who have vied for a seat on the other side of the garage? The reason for this is obvious, the more the records tumble the more reputation there is to lose - the doubters suspect its the car - a defeat by an Alonso or a Hamilton and then they know it always was the car so in a way it's understandable. In the end its for Vettel to decide - he could be up there but I for one need to see more. And I know I'm not the only one.

See, this is where reason leaves the room.

You have no reason whatsoever to conclude that the reason they don't take on Hamilton or Alonso is to protect Vettel. It's far more likely that they have a winning formula of recruiting / promoting from within which guarantees them drivers who they know inside out, whose attitude to the team is solid, and who they know will maintain the continuity. Riccardo has proven his ability and attitude in the feeder team and guess what they do? Fill that place from the next step down too. It's continuity and development, the hallmark of the most successful organisations.

Exactly why would you bring the sulking pain that is Alonso into this very happy ship, then have to put up with all his whining when things don't go his way? Even Hamilton, for whom I have only admiration for his driving and lately his behaviour, isn't necessary to the teams success and could only be a risk to the smooth running of the team.

Some people don't understand how to build a successful organisation and I'm not surprised to see this particular comment picked up for applause.

Jesus - thats one long article. Don't have time to read it right now but wanted to give my 2 cents anyway.

Call me bitter or deranged or whatever, but I simply cannot give a huge amount of credit to Vettel, knowing how much better his cars have been than the rest of the competition.

Had McLaren or Ferrari had cars that good for the last 4 seasons, there is every possibility we would be looking at Alonso as a 6-time world champion, or Lewis Hamilton equalling Prost's achievements.

Its one of the reasons I don't view Schumacher's 7 titles with the same amount of awe as some people might.


Vettel is undoubtedly one of the best drivers currently around, but he is also undoubtedly the beneficiary of:

1. Having the best car on the grid by some margin

2. Having the team completely geared around him

3. A superior tactical team who plan his races meticulously


About the best thing I can say about Vettel is that he knows how to drive to a strategy and make it work (although its probably just as well he's got his engineer to tell him to calm down and take it easy).

Yes, he's without doubt an excellent driver, as evidenced by the way he's left Mark Webber in his wake season after season. He has the best car, but also gets the maximum out of it, but given that winning has been so easy for him, more often than not, I simply cannot view his 4 consecutive title wins as a magnificent achievement...which feels a bit weird because under most cirumstances it would be a herculean effort.

And thats me being objective and leaving my dislike of the man to one side.

bogbrush wrote:

SteveG wrote:Have said this many times and will say it again - nobody is arguing that Vettel isn't the best at what he does - but IMO he needs to either show what he can do/develop in different cars - a bit like Alex Ferguson rebuilding ManU numerous times - or he becomes embroiled in some fierce career defining rivalries. The former is a bit dificult at the moment simply because no driver is ever going to leave a winning car BUT there is nothing stopping the latter. It's down to the other teams to do the business but it's also why I can't be dealing with listening to Horners spounting - if his man was so good then why knock back ALL of the other top 3 drivers in the sport who have vied for a seat on the other side of the garage? The reason for this is obvious, the more the records tumble the more reputation there is to lose - the doubters suspect its the car - a defeat by an Alonso or a Hamilton and then they know it always was the car so in a way it's understandable. In the end its for Vettel to decide - he could be up there but I for one need to see more. And I know I'm not the only one.

See, this is where reason leaves the room.

You have no reason whatsoever to conclude that the reason they don't take on Hamilton or Alonso is to protect Vettel. It's far more likely that they have a winning formula of recruiting / promoting from within which guarantees them drivers who they know inside out, whose attitude to the team is solid, and who they know will maintain the continuity. Riccardo has proven his ability and attitude in the feeder team and guess what they do? Fill that place from the next step down too. It's continuity and development, the hallmark of the most successful organisations.

Exactly why would you bring the sulking pain that is Alonso into this very happy ship, then have to put up with all his whining when things don't go his way? Even Hamilton, for whom I have only admiration for his driving and lately his behaviour, isn't necessary to the teams success and could only be a risk to the smooth running of the team.

Some people don't understand how to build a successful organisation and I'm not surprised to see this particular comment picked up for applause.

Whether RB do or don't protect Vettel is irrelevant to me. But what would be relevant is his reaction - was it "phew that was close" or was it "damn I was looking forward to kicking ass". My underlying point is his 4 titles may be enough for some but for many the simplicity of it all (for want of a better word) means he still needs to show more.

But you don't know the answer, do you? Or are you going to make that up, like RB's reason for rejecting Alonso / Hamilton?

dyrewolfe wrote:Call me bitter or deranged or whatever......

Oh, all right then.

dyrewolfe wrote:"..................
And thats me being objective and leaving my dislike of the man to one side.

I so much want to see you get all subjective and show your feelings.

bogbrush wrote:But you don't know the answer, do you? Or are you going to make that up, like RB's reason for rejecting Alonso / Hamilton?

Never said I did - just that it would be relevant in MY assessment of him. Not being funny pal but there is just no debating Vettel with you for even when people acknowledge his achievments u're still on to them like a rat up a f***ing drain pipe. Are you his dad or something? FFS.

SteveG wrote:

bogbrush wrote:But you don't know the answer, do you? Or are you going to make that up, like RB's reason for rejecting Alonso / Hamilton?

Never said I did - just that it would be relevant in MY assessment of him. Not being funny pal but there is just no debating Vettel with you for even when people acknowledge his achievments u're still on to them like a rat up a f***ing drain pipe. Are you his dad or something? FFS.

I just like logic and consistency and can't help but point out subjectivity masquerading as fact.

If you make a point based on a fact which you don't know, and then agree you don't, it kind of makes it a bit odd that you made the point. You went off onto an idea based on an 'obvious' reason RB had to deny Alonso / Hamilton joining RB which you then agreed had zero basis in fact. Then you decided that was irrelevant but Vettels reaction was what mattered, except of course you have no idea what his reaction was.

At which point it kind of looks like your argument just ate itself.

What the f*ck are you banging on about.

SteveG wrote:What the f*ck are you banging on about.

 

Well, I recounted your argument.

So I guess it was a pretty meaningless post that made no sense in the end.

lol. Jog on.

Bless you.

Bogbrush - As a Vettel worshiper, do you want the RB10 to be dominant or a mid to high placed positioned car in 2014, whereby we can judge Vettel in a better light & by where he actually has to race wheel to wheel & endure 'actual' tyre issues like the rest of his rivals. It would give us a clearer picture of his true ability.

I never used to be a fan of Vettel and I do watch races wishing someone will challenge him but he is beginning to make me think he is more talented then I originally thought. It takes something special to dominate a sport like he has even with the best car! Only Schumacher has done it before I think. Damon Hill had the best in the newey designed Williams but struggled to the championship- the same with villneuve. Hakkinen only became champion when Mclaren came good with newey but he didn't dominate like Vettel has. As far as teaming up with a quality team mate, Alonso won his championships with inferior teammates in the number two car as did Hamilton. I don't think top drivers have ever really wanted to be teamed up with one another. Personality wise I think Vettel is okay- he seems intelligent, he has a good sense of humour and interviews well. The only bad thing he is doing is making the sport predictable- we all know for now he is going to get the win.

John wrote:Bogbrush - As a Vettel worshiper, do you want the RB10 to be dominant or a mid to high placed positioned car in 2014, whereby we can judge Vettel in a better light & by where he actually has to race wheel to wheel & endure 'actual' tyre issues like the rest of his rivals. It would give us a clearer picture of his true ability.

Wrong premise, silly dig, but what I'dlike to see is;

* nobody struggling with these pathetic tyre issues.
* overtaking to mean something.
* exciting competition and mixed up results.

I have no interest in whether Vettel proves something or nothing, it doesn't really matter to me. I suppose I'd be sad to see him win against the odds because it'd see an end to the stupid carping. On the other hand, no it wouldn't. If he wins next year it'll be because of the car / designer / weak partner / luck / rules / carbon footprint, that's obvious.

bogbrush wrote:

John wrote:Bogbrush - As a Vettel worshiper, do you want the RB10 to be dominant or a mid to high placed positioned car in 2014, whereby we can judge Vettel in a better light & by where he actually has to race wheel to wheel & endure 'actual' tyre issues like the rest of his rivals. It would give us a clearer picture of his true ability.

Wrong premise, silly dig, but what I'dlike to see is;

* nobody struggling with these pathetic tyre issues.
* overtaking to mean something.
* exciting competition and mixed up results.

I have no interest in whether Vettel proves something or nothing, it doesn't really matter to me. I suppose I'd be sad to see him win against the odds because it'd see an end to the stupid carping. On the other hand, no it wouldn't. If he wins next year it'll be because of the car / designer / weak partner / luck / rules / carbon footprint, that's obvious.

Don't worry ud be able to say the same if anyone but Alonso/Raikkonen win it, I suspect if Hamilton won the title next year these would be written off.

I give Vettel credit on winning four world titles but is it something Alonso or Hamilton would have done given the same car and designer over the same time period - I say we would now be hailing them. Titles mean status but doesn't guarantee legend status. Look at Sir Stirling Moss - knighted and regarded as an all-time great but never won one world title. Is Schumacher twice as good as Senna because he won twice as many titles - of course not. Does Hamilton's world title hold more significance than Button's? Well yes as Button had a Red Bullesque dominant car in Brawn whilst Hamilton had to graft for the title in a car that wasn't even quickest on the grid.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I give Vettel credit on winning four world titles but is it something Alonso or Hamilton would have done given the same car and designer over the same time period - I say we would now be hailing them. Titles mean status but doesn't guarantee legend status. Look at Sir Stirling Moss - knighted and regarded as an all-time great but never won one world title. Is Schumacher twice as good as Senna because he won twice as many titles - of course not. Does Hamilton's world title hold more significance than Button's? Well yes as Button had a Red Bullesque dominant car in Brawn whilst Hamilton had to graft for the title in a car that wasn't even quickest on the grid.

He only won it as he had a non competitive teammate in Kovalainen. If he had Alonso/Raikkonen as teammate it would stand better for me.

The point is Fernando, it stands up better than Button's who had a dominant season in the Brawn which had a Red Bullesque season.

Why isn't Schumacher twice as good as a Senna? Ayrton chased the best car, Michael turned his into it. So who gets most kudos there?

Who really knows how good Stirling Moss is? So he was knighted? Big deal.

Next we'll be hearing about recollections of Jim Clark.  

CaledonianCraig wrote:The point is Fernando, it stands up better than Button's who had a dominant season in the Brawn which had a Red Bullesque season.

My point is why is Vettel's title disparaged for having a weak teammate yet Hamilton won under the same circumstances. Also Jenson's season was he won 6 of the 7 first races then only got on the podium twice in the remaining 10 races I wouldn't exactly call that dominant.

Fernando wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:The point is Fernando, it stands up better than Button's who had a dominant season in the Brawn which had a Red Bullesque season.

My point is why is Vettel's title disparaged for having a weak teammate yet Hamilton won under the same circumstances. Also Jenson's season was he won 6 of the 7 first races then only got on the podium twice in the remaining 10 races I wouldn't exactly call that dominant.

Because the rule here is to start with the answer, then develop the facts.

Because Hamilton wasn't in a dominant car that was fastest on the grid like the Red Bull is. I mean this year Webber has been unlucky with car issues yet it is still not out of the question he could finish second in the title race that is how dominant Red Bull have been. Hamilton's McLaren was not even to win the manufacturer's championship that year but he managed to manufacture himself a world title. Okay Button was dominant for half a season but the Brawn was certainly the car to beat that year and clinched the world manufacturers title.

Also id like to point this out

Hamilton - 5 Wins - 5 podiums
Button - 6 Wins - 2 podiums

If anything Hamilton's championship was more dominant. The Mclaren was a equal best car with the Ferrari that season only didn't win the constructors due to Kovalainen being average . Personally if Piquet Jr hadn't thrown the race at Singapore i think we'd be here with Hamilton on 0 titles now.

2008 and we saw:-

Ferrari 8 Race Wins V McLaren 6 Race Wins

Ferrari 8 Pole Positions V McLaren 8 Pole Positions

Ferrari 13 Race Fastest Laps V McLaren 3 Race Fastest Laps

Plus Ferrari won the manufacturer's title so tells me Ferrari was the quicker car. Even if you wanted to argue the McLaren had the edge there is no way the McLaren was a dominant force that season compared to its closest rivals.

CaledonianCraig wrote:2008 and we saw:-

Ferrari 8 Race Wins V McLaren 6 Race Wins

Ferrari 8 Pole Positions V McLaren 8 Pole Positions

Ferrari 13 Race Fastest Laps V McLaren 3 Race Fastest Laps

Plus Ferrari won the manufacturer's title so tells me Ferrari was the quicker car. Even if you wanted to argue the McLaren had the edge there is no way the McLaren was a dominant force that season compared to its closest rivals.

Tbh i wouldn't take notice of the fastest laps due to refuelling they was definitely closely matched over the season.

Well even if they were closely matched neither was ever a dominant force which is my point. Brawn were dominant in the first half of the season when Button won the title which shows if you get the right car and conditions a title is winnable.

bogbrush wrote:
* nobody struggling with these pathetic tyre issues.
* overtaking to mean something.
* exciting competition and mixed up results.

I think you will get point 3 but not the first two. Regulation change will mix the show up to a point for the first half of the season, before the financial clout, development n workforce of the big teams begins to take effect. Tyre issues will remain, I just can't see Pirelli changing their mindset, they've been told to produce a certain type of tyre & they will continue to do that job. Overtaking will remain completely unskilled, predictable & unchallenged I'm afraid. DRS makes a mockery of overtaking as you saw with Vettel in India. Throw in fuel conservation n engine conservation from the beginning of races, I fear even more dire viewing for us the fans. I actually think Bogbrush, Vettel has shown extremely good skill in controlling his pace & conserving the car, points which Helmut Marko pointed out post India, which should be important for next year. I'm worried, as a Hamilton fan, that F1 is heading in a direction completely alien to Lewis & his skill set & speed. Hopefully, I'm proved wrong.

Probably so.

The vilification of Pirelli is so unfair in my opinion. They have done exactly what they were asked to.

Fernando wrote:Also id like to point this out

Hamilton - 5 Wins - 5 podiums
Button - 6 Wins - 2 podiums
If anything Hamilton's championship was more dominant. The Mclaren was a equal best car with the Ferrari that season only didn't win the constructors due to Kovalainen being average.

What that reflects is just what an advantage having a dominant car actually gives. Button was unbeatable in the first half of the season but once Brawn were caught then back came Mr average who clung on to the title by his fingertips.

Personally if Piquet Jr hadn't thrown the race at Singapore i think we'd be here with Hamilton on 0 titles now.

Spa. Reikhonen. Place given back. Penalty. Massa promoted. Injustice. Its all ifs and buts.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well even if they were closely matched neither was ever a dominant force which is my point. Brawn were dominant in the first half of the season when Button won the title which shows if you get the right car and conditions a title is winnable.

Spot on. Hamiltons battle with Massa ebbed and flowed with very equally matched cars. Three of Vettels four titles have come with a dominant car for large parts of a season which is more than enough as so aptly demonstrated by Button.

I laugh at how insanely overrated Lewis Hamilton is in this thread.   Vettel isnt better than Hamilton?!?!  Dont make me laugh.  Hamilton struggles to even stay ahead of second rate drivers like Button and Rosberg in the same car.  Vettel would roast him even if both were in a Red Bull, the times crashmilton even finished the races that is. I doubt there is anyone in F1 who seriously would argue for Hamilton as being better than Vettel at this point.

The only one I could see being competitive with Vettel in the same car on a consistent basis would be Alonso.  Kim would have some great races but be inconsistent as always.

As for Red Bull not picking up one of Alonso or Kimi, we see the problems Alonso has created with a competitive teammate on occasions past, and who knows if Kimi even wants to go there.

Fernando wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:The point is Fernando, it stands up better than Button's who had a dominant season in the Brawn which had a Red Bullesque season.

My point is why is Vettel's title disparaged for having a weak teammate yet Hamilton won under the same circumstances. Also Jenson's season was he won 6 of the 7 first races then only got on the podium twice in the remaining 10 races I wouldn't exactly call that dominant.

Schumacher, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Button all won their F1 drivers titles with a relatively weak teammate. So indeed it is hypocritical for anyone to single out anyone individual in that sense. The best teammate any of those had in their title years was probably Barichello, and still hardly hardly a first class driver. I cant even remember the last one to win a F1 drivers title with an almost equally strong teammate. Villeneuve and Hill were evenly matched the year Hill won, but neither one is that great. The years Hakkinen won with Coulthard as a teammate might be closest in recent memory I guess.

alonsofan30 wrote:

Fernando wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:The point is Fernando, it stands up better than Button's who had a dominant season in the Brawn which had a Red Bullesque season.

My point is why is Vettel's title disparaged for having a weak teammate yet Hamilton won under the same circumstances. Also Jenson's season was he won 6 of the 7 first races then only got on the podium twice in the remaining 10 races I wouldn't exactly call that dominant.

Schumacher, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Button all won their F1 drivers titles with a relatively weak teammate.    So indeed it is hypocritical for anyone to single out anyone individual in that sense.   The best teammate any of those had in their title years was probably Barichello, and still hardly hardly a first class driver.   I cant even remember the last one to win a F1 drivers title with an almost equally strong teammate.   Villeneuve and Hill were evenly matched the year Hill won, but neither one is that great.   The years Hakkinen won with Coulthard as a teammate might be closest in recent memory I guess.

That much is very true. But how many of those drivers with a weak team-mate were also in a vastly superior car to the rest of the grid? That is the point here. If you have by far the best car and a weak/or not the very best team-mate you will have a one horse race for the drivers title as has been the case this year.

alonsofan30 wrote:I laugh at how insanely overrated Lewis Hamilton is in this thread.   Vettel isnt better than Hamilton?!?!  Dont make me laugh.  Hamilton struggles to even stay ahead of second rate drivers like Button and Rosberg in the same car.  Vettel would roast him even if both were in a Red Bull, the times crashmilton even finished the races that is.   I doubt there is anyone in F1 who seriously would argue for Hamilton as being better than Vettel at this point.

The only one I could see being competitive with Vettel in the same car on a consistent basis would be Alonso.  Kim would have some great races but be inconsistent as always.

As for Red Bull not picking up one of Alonso or Kimi, we see the problems Alonso has created with a competitive teammate on occasions past, and who knows if Kimi even wants to go there.  

Typical BS from an Alonso fan. 2007 was a long time ago when your man got butt whacked by a rookie - get over it.

SteveG wrote:

alonsofan30 wrote:I laugh at how insanely overrated Lewis Hamilton is in this thread.   Vettel isnt better than Hamilton?!?!  Dont make me laugh.  Hamilton struggles to even stay ahead of second rate drivers like Button and Rosberg in the same car.  Vettel would roast him even if both were in a Red Bull, the times crashmilton even finished the races that is.   I doubt there is anyone in F1 who seriously would argue for Hamilton as being better than Vettel at this point.

The only one I could see being competitive with Vettel in the same car on a consistent basis would be Alonso.  Kim would have some great races but be inconsistent as always.

As for Red Bull not picking up one of Alonso or Kimi, we see the problems Alonso has created with a competitive teammate on occasions past, and who knows if Kimi even wants to go there.  

Typical BS from an Alonso fan. 2007 was a long time ago when your man got butt whacked by a rookie - get over it.

Typical Hamilton Fanboy response there SteveG, Im interested to see how you call 109pts each a butt whacking considering they were both in their 1st year at Mclaren. He might of had experience on his side but as most seemed to say at the beginning of this season it takes time to learn the car and how they would like it etc.

I discussed team make-up of drivers on another thread but can't remember which.

Anyway suffice to say that the usual make-up of top teams is a lead driver and rear gunner set-up so can fully understand why Red Bull have gone for the driver line-up they have for next year - if it ain't broke don't fix it. McLaren tried two top driver mix with Alonso and Hamilton and the clash of egos and personalities was evident and proved counter-productive. McLaren had the same with Lauda and Hunt and Prost and Senna - very volatile team line-ups. Ferrari have always favoured a lead driver/rear gunner line-up as have most top teams throughout F1. Further down the field and midfield teams will look to maximise points hauls in a bid to compete with the big teams by opting for two equal standing drivers but lately we have seen a new trend with teams on a low budget opting for drivers who can bring sponsorship/funding to the team so perhaps weakening their driver line-up talent-wise.

Fernando wrote:

SteveG wrote:

alonsofan30 wrote:I laugh at how insanely overrated Lewis Hamilton is in this thread.   Vettel isnt better than Hamilton?!?!  Dont make me laugh.  Hamilton struggles to even stay ahead of second rate drivers like Button and Rosberg in the same car.  Vettel would roast him even if both were in a Red Bull, the times crashmilton even finished the races that is.   I doubt there is anyone in F1 who seriously would argue for Hamilton as being better than Vettel at this point.

The only one I could see being competitive with Vettel in the same car on a consistent basis would be Alonso.  Kim would have some great races but be inconsistent as always.

As for Red Bull not picking up one of Alonso or Kimi, we see the problems Alonso has created with a competitive teammate on occasions past, and who knows if Kimi even wants to go there.  

Typical BS from an Alonso fan. 2007 was a long time ago when your man got butt whacked by a rookie - get over it.

Typical Hamilton Fanboy response there SteveG, Im interested to see how you call 109pts each a butt whacking considering they were both in their 1st year at Mclaren. He might of had experience on his side but as most seemed to say at the beginning of this season it takes time to learn the car and how they would like it etc.

It was a fanboy response to fanboy goading.

Only an idiot would put two contenders together at a harmonious team. People forget the teams priority is to win the Constructors title, with the drivers adding extra fizz to the champagne.

This is professional sport, not the F1 version of Championship Manager.

bogbrush wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:Call me bitter or deranged or whatever......

Oh, all right then.

Just me and several thousand others then, given the number of races Vettel got booed at.

bogbrush wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:"..................
And thats me being objective and leaving my dislike of the man to one side.

I so much want to see you get all subjective and show your feelings.

Oh, all right then. I think Sebastian Vettel is a two-faced, finger-waving, team order-ignoring git, who like his mentor isn't averse to running people off the track. I wouldn't mind so much but he's not even a very good liar, as evidenced by his clumsy attempts to explain his ignoring of said team orders.

But still, I do try to be objective...

SteveG wrote:

Fernando wrote:

SteveG wrote:

alonsofan30 wrote:I laugh at how insanely overrated Lewis Hamilton is in this thread.   Vettel isnt better than Hamilton?!?!  Dont make me laugh.  Hamilton struggles to even stay ahead of second rate drivers like Button and Rosberg in the same car.  Vettel would roast him even if both were in a Red Bull, the times crashmilton even finished the races that is.   I doubt there is anyone in F1 who seriously would argue for Hamilton as being better than Vettel at this point.

The only one I could see being competitive with Vettel in the same car on a consistent basis would be Alonso.  Kim would have some great races but be inconsistent as always.

As for Red Bull not picking up one of Alonso or Kimi, we see the problems Alonso has created with a competitive teammate on occasions past, and who knows if Kimi even wants to go there.  

Typical BS from an Alonso fan. 2007 was a long time ago when your man got butt whacked by a rookie - get over it.

Typical Hamilton Fanboy response there SteveG, Im interested to see how you call 109pts each a butt whacking considering they were both in their 1st year at Mclaren. He might of had experience on his side but as most seemed to say at the beginning of this season it takes time to learn the car and how they would like it etc.

It was a fanboy response to fanboy goading.

Hamilton struggles to stay ahead of Button/Rosberg? Firstly he's beating Nico in qualifying comfortably n a full 25 pts ahead in standings, in a car nico knew & understood. Hamilton beat Button one year easily n then suffered horrifying reliability, pit issues n off field issues, which all played into JB`s hands. As far as qualifying goes, Lewis is unmatched. For me, if the McLaren had 100% reliability, then Button would of needed binoculars to see Hamilton during their time together.

Vettel to roast Hamilton? Please. Let's at least have the opportunity to see them n equal machinery until you make such comments which are clearly unfounded. We can only go on Vettel being beaten by Lewis in F3 & by Di Resta the following year. Let's wait until Vettel leaves the safety net or cocoon of RB, before comparing him with drivers of arguably more talent but have been succumbed to inferior machinery.

As for Alonso, to me, it looks like he's actually mentally n physically drained with F1 & the continual failure at landing another title. His championship battles n coming off second best, on more than one occasion, takes its toll in the end. I mean being beaten consistently by Massa in qualifying is just embarrassing, given Massa`s downfall.

As for the driver line ups & teams preferring a clear no.1 & no.2 - that has been debated to death. Everyone knows its the smart, most efficient way of trying to win a title. RB have understood that unlike its rivals. The only reason Ferrari are going for kimi/Alonso is because they ate desperate for success. At times of desperation, you go against the ideal of a no.1 & no.2

dyrewolfe wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:Call me bitter or deranged or whatever......

Oh, all right then.

Just me and several thousand others then, given the number of races Vettel got booed at.

There is never comfort to be found in the wisdom of the mob.

dyrewolfe wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:"..................
And thats me being objective and leaving my dislike of the man to one side.

I so much want to see you get all subjective and show your feelings.

Oh, all right then. I think Sebastian Vettel is a two-faced, finger-waving, team order-ignoring git, who like his mentor isn't averse to running people off the track. I wouldn't mind so much but he's not even a very good liar, as evidenced by his clumsy attempts to explain his ignoring of said team orders.
But still, I do try to be objective...

It's a struggle, I can see. My only advice is to seek guidance in facts.

Best of luck.

SteveG wrote:

alonsofan30 wrote:I laugh at how insanely overrated Lewis Hamilton is in this thread.   Vettel isnt better than Hamilton?!?!  Dont make me laugh.  Hamilton struggles to even stay ahead of second rate drivers like Button and Rosberg in the same car.  Vettel would roast him even if both were in a Red Bull, the times crashmilton even finished the races that is.   I doubt there is anyone in F1 who seriously would argue for Hamilton as being better than Vettel at this point.

The only one I could see being competitive with Vettel in the same car on a consistent basis would be Alonso.  Kim would have some great races but be inconsistent as always.

As for Red Bull not picking up one of Alonso or Kimi, we see the problems Alonso has created with a competitive teammate on occasions past, and who knows if Kimi even wants to go there.  

Typical BS from an Alonso fan. 2007 was a long time ago when your man got butt whacked by a rookie - get over it.

Hahaha, they ended up with the same number of points.   Some butt kicking.   That was also with it being clear the team was heavily favoring their golden bay Hamilton, and treating Alonso like an ingrate (sorry this is not just word of mouth, as McLaren brass were being caught on camera celebrating his crashes and mistakes in the second half of the season).    Hamilton in a similar hostile environment would probably not even keep up with a 44 year old Schmacher.    As it turns out though for Hamilton that turned out to be his peak, only in 2008 was he even close to the same level of driver, and as a driver he has only gone downhill since;  while Alonso has regularly beat him since in generally speaking slower cars, and actually contended and nearly won Championships in 3rd or 4th best cars, which Hamilton cant do in what is generally the 2nd best car.   Alonso is the only one today serious people will even argue that might be better than Vettel.   Hamilton, only a British homer would ever dare suggest is any better than the 4th or 5th best driver today, and that might be generous.

BTW if I would be bitter to someone it would be Vettel who is the champion who has denied Alonso numerous championships.   Unlike Hamilton who has denied Alonso nothing in his career thus far.   However despite not being a Vettel fan, I respect him as a champion and Hamilton homers need to get over their delusions he is a superior driver to Vettel which is laughable to even suggest as he struggles to even stay ahead of Button and Rosberg types as teammates.    I could take your approach and be a sore loser towards Vettel and cry Alonso would have easily won the Championships atleast in 2010 and 2012 if he were in a Red Bull (almost certainly true, and note I have been a lurker here for a long time and have read many of your posts so I know what you are all about), but I dont go there.

Imagine Vettel or Alonso being treated as the team #1 with Jenson Button as their teammate, and finishing a single season more than 40 points behind BUTTON.   Imagine Vettel or Alonso being teammates of Button for 3 years, and collecting less total points in those 3 years combined than Button managed.   Not in a million years would that happen.   Imagine Vettel or Alonso in the same car having less wins in a season than Nico Rosberg in their first year as teammates.   Again would never happen to those two giants of F1, only to a driver not of their stature like Hamilton. Hamilton in 4 years combined with Button and Rosberg as teammates has only collected 10 more points and won 1 more race. So we can conclude since his 2007/2008 peak, Hamilton has been about a Button/Rosberg level driver the last 5 years. If Vettel were down with Hamilton as a driver he would be struggling with Weber the same way Hamilton struggles to stay above Button and Rosberg, but here we see the giant difference.

Lastly I laugh how the Vettel haters in this thread trumpet how he could never win a Championship in Renault like Alonso did.  Well that might be true, but it sure as hell is true of Hamilton as well.   Hamilton not in a million years could have done what Alonso did, win a championship, let alone back to back in Renaults.   So if that is supposed proof Alonso is better than Vettel for the Vettel haters, it is proof that Alonso >>>>>>> Hamilton as well.