Sebastien Vettel - Time to give credit where it's due

First topic message reminder :

I came across this earlier and figured a lot of you on here could learn from this.

Has any driver in history been so heavily criticised as Sebastian Vettel simply for doing his job so brilliantly?

His performances during the past four seasons have been nothing short of stunning. At the age of 26 and with only six and a half years in Formula 1 under his belt, he is already a quadruple world champion and ranked among the greats in terms of wins (behind only Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna). He's also the third most successful qualifier. But those numbers tell only part of the story.
Vettel's crime is the heinous one of having the best car under him and exploiting it ruthlessly. To put it another way, he is doing exactly what every racing driver who ever starts out on the road to grand prix racing aims to achieve.

Without question, the Red Bull has been the car of choice on the balance of this season, just as it was in 2011, even though it was not until after the August break that the team hit truly dominant form. But in both 2010 and 2012 he had to fight hard to recover from a long way down in the points, seizing the championship with strong late-season performances. Easy? Hardly.

Take Brazil last year. Vettel played a big part in putting himself into the position where he spun on the first lap after contact with Bruno Senna and was then collected. But his comeback drive, in a hobbled car, leaning on a machine that he had every reason to expect was on the brink of failure in those early recovery laps, was the stuff of legend.

The ongoing debate about whether the driver or the car is the most important part of the competitive equation is a fatuous one. Motorsport has always been about the combination of the two.

A driver cannot change the laws of physics to make a mediocre car into a winner - all they can do is extract the maximum from it. The greats do that with a regularity beyond the 'average' grand prix driver (who is still, by any measure, hugely able).

Likewise, given how competitive modern F1 is, a merely decent driver in the best car will usually struggle to win the title, and given how tight the competition is these days, will likely fail in F1.

What must not be underestimated is the contribution a great driver makes to the best car. Watch Vettel in slower corners and you will see quite how brilliantly proactive he can be.

Senna is lauded for the way he blipped the throttle to keep the turbo spooled up ready for the moment the power was fed in. In a similar way, Vettel is able to provoke the rear of the car to perfection, summoning the exhaust-blowing effect to create downforce when he needs it without ever getting the car too out of shape. This is a fine art and one that is beyond even as good a driver as Mark Webber.

To be able to do this, first you must have a car under you that responds to such a technique; but it's just one example of how Vettel ensures that a car is able to lap at the extremes of its performance envelope.

Once mindlessly criticised for not being able to overtake, his recent campaigns have been littered with key manoeuvres, particularly early in the race or after his first pitstop, that have made his path to victory so much easier. Often over the past four years, key overtaking moves have allowed him to boss the race rather than play catch-up.

This aspect of his game has become critical given Red Bull's philosophy of setting the car up for peak lap-time rather than straightline speed. Some of these passes are genuine do-or-die moments where the driver has to make the difference between winning or finishing second or third.

Vettel also has a tremendous work ethic. Like all the best elite sportspeople, he leaves no stone unturned and does not buy into the idea that he can simply drive around problems.

Generally, he learns from his mistakes. In China last year, he switched to an earlier version of the Red Bull's rear end because he did not like the handling characteristics of the new one.

That weekend, Adrian Newey focused far more on Webber's car and Vettel struggled. He realised that he simply had to adapt. So he did.
But let's face it, the critics are less interested in what Vettel has done than what he hasn't done. After his initial success, he has not found himself struggling in a less competitive car, as Fernando Alonso is currently doing and Michael Schumacher did in his early days with Ferrari. Why? Because he's still enjoying his early success.

Over the coming years, there is certain to be a point where Vettel is in a car that's less competitive than his current one. The characteristics he has shown during the past four seasons will stand him in good stead when that happens. But it's unfair to criticise a driver who is still relatively early in his career for not having gone through this phase.

It is true he's not gone up against a true superstar team-mate. While he has ticked the box of greatness by making an extremely good team-mate in Webber look pretty ordinary, we've not seen him up against a fellow world champion.

Such a partnership would be mouth-watering and every F1 fan would love to see it. But make no mistake, such pairings are rare. Next year's Alonso / Kimi Raikkonen alliance at Ferrari is only the sixth time two drivers with world titles to their name have been team-mates.

Related to this criticism is the fact that he's the lead driver at Red Bull. Certainly, he is. And on performance. Winning in F1 is so difficult that you can rest assured, were Webber better than Vettel, he would become the focal point. Likewise if Daniel Ricciardo jumps in the car next year and is consistently faster, Red Bull is not going to compromise its own results to make Vettel look better.

But many of these challenges are to come for Vettel. His chief crime appears to be that people are rushing to judgement based not only on what he hasn't done, but what he has not had the opportunity to do. Look at the detail, the way he has capitalised on having the best car (but not by any means a car with as big an advantage as many of the greats enjoyed at times), and you see a master at work.

It's perfectly acceptable to reserve judgement on his greatness until he moves through a wider range of circumstances, and his status will constantly be re-evaluated and examined as his career goes on. But to suggest he is somehow unworthy of his recent success is nonsensical.

It has been a great privilege to have covered Vettel's (first?) Four world championships as a journalist for AUTOSPORT. The way he conducts himself off-track, his virtuosity on it and his ability to nail it when it really matters leave no doubt that he is a true great, and when he faces other challenges in his career, he will no doubt conquer them.

What is a shame is that people are so quick to deride achievement. Vettel has become a force of nature. As relentless as Alonso and as brilliant a qualifier as Senna. In decades to come, people will envy those of us who had the chance to watch him at work just as today those of us who are too young to have watched Jackie Stewart or Jim Clark in their pomp do.

Then, of course, there is the elephant in the room - Vettel's character. Frankly, the way he is perceived in the wider world is an extraordinary distortion of reality. He has always been unfailingly polite, humble and courteous in his dealings with AUTOSPORT, and is loved within his team. This is a driver who combines brilliance on-track with affability off it. Yet the way he is portrayed in some quarters is nothing short of slanderous.

Yes, he made a spectacular misjudgement when he rode roughshod over team orders and passed Webber to win in Malaysia this year. That reflected badly on him and is a negative as far as a character reference goes, but that one incident has been used as validation for every other claim about his conduct and behaviour, no matter how spurious.

After all, he has never deliberately driven into championship rivals to his own advantage as several others around him near the top of the world championships list did. He's also avoided engaging in the kind of mind games and tricks designed to gain the upper hand within a team favoured by some other drivers.

There is no doubt Vettel is a great; you can see it in the way he works, the way he handles the car, the way he interacts with the team. Yes, there has been the odd mistake, but that's the case for every driver , particularly given how close the competition is today.
Where he figures in that pantheon can only be decided once his career is done and dusted. Certainly, next year, with its new regulations, will be a fresh challenge entirely and the chance to see how he adapts to a new style of driving and perhaps even an uncompetitive car.
But make no mistake, he is among the greats already. The question still to be answered is where exactly he figures.

Remind me how keen Ferrari and Alonso were on Hamilton last year.

Yet they're doing all they can to get Vettel?

alonsofan30 wrote:

SteveG wrote:

alonsofan30 wrote:I laugh at how insanely overrated Lewis Hamilton is in this thread.   Vettel isnt better than Hamilton?!?!  Dont make me laugh.  Hamilton struggles to even stay ahead of second rate drivers like Button and Rosberg in the same car.  Vettel would roast him even if both were in a Red Bull, the times crashmilton even finished the races that is.   I doubt there is anyone in F1 who seriously would argue for Hamilton as being better than Vettel at this point.

The only one I could see being competitive with Vettel in the same car on a consistent basis would be Alonso.  Kim would have some great races but be inconsistent as always.

As for Red Bull not picking up one of Alonso or Kimi, we see the problems Alonso has created with a competitive teammate on occasions past, and who knows if Kimi even wants to go there.  

Typical BS from an Alonso fan. 2007 was a long time ago when your man got butt whacked by a rookie - get over it.

Hahaha, they ended up with the same number of points.   Some butt kicking.   That was also with it being clear the team was heavily favoring their golden bay Hamilton, and treating Alonso like an ingrate (sorry this is not just word of mouth, as McLaren brass were being caught on camera celebrating his crashes and mistakes in the second half of the season).    Hamilton in a similar hostile environment would probably not even keep up with a 44 year old Schmacher.    As it turns out though for Hamilton that turned out to be his peak, only in 2008 was he even close to the same level of driver, and as a driver he has only gone downhill since;  while Alonso has regularly beat him since in generally speaking slower cars, and actually contended and nearly won Championships in 3rd or 4th best cars, which Hamilton cant do in what is generally the 2nd best car.   Alonso is the only one today serious people will even argue that might be better than Vettel.   Hamilton, only a British homer would ever dare suggest is any better than the 4th or 5th best driver today, and that might be generous.

BTW if I would be bitter to someone it would be Vettel who is the champion who has denied Alonso numerous championships.   Unlike Hamilton who has denied Alonso nothing in his career thus far.   However despite not being a Vettel fan, I respect him as a champion and Hamilton homers need to get over their delusions he is a superior driver to Vettel which is laughable to even suggest as he struggles to even stay ahead of Button and Rosberg types as teammates.    I could take your approach and be a sore loser towards Vettel and cry Alonso would have easily won the Championships atleast in 2010 and 2012 if he were in a Red Bull (almost certainly true, and note I have been a lurker here for a long time and have read many of your posts so I know what you are all about), but I dont go there.

Imagine Vettel or Alonso being treated as the team #1 with Jenson Button as their teammate, and finishing a single season more than 40 points behind BUTTON.   Imagine Vettel or Alonso being teammates of Button for 3 years, and collecting less total points in those 3 years combined than Button managed.   Not in a million years would that happen.   Imagine Vettel or Alonso in the same car having less wins in a season than Nico Rosberg in their first year as teammates.   Again would never happen to those two giants of F1, only to a driver not of their stature like Hamilton.   Hamilton in 4 years combined with Button and Rosberg as teammates has only collected 10 more points and won 1 more race.    So we can conclude since his 2007/2008 peak, Hamilton has been about a Button/Rosberg level driver the last 5 years.   If Vettel were down with Hamilton as a driver he would be struggling with Weber the same way Hamilton struggles to stay above Button and Rosberg, but here we see the giant difference.

Lastly I laugh how the Vettel haters in this thread trumpet how he could never win a Championship in Renault like Alonso did.  Well that might be true, but it sure as hell is true of Hamilton as well.   Hamilton not in a million years could have done what Alonso did, win a championship, let alone back to back in Renaults.   So if that is supposed proof Alonso is better than Vettel for the Vettel haters, it is proof that Alonso >>>>>>> Hamilton as well.

Wow - unfortunately got no reply to that - fell into a coma after about the 5th sentence.

As soon as it said `hamilton wouldn't even be able to keep up with a 44 year old schumacher`, i knew there was no point replying either. Rosberg beat schumacher & Hamilton is comfortably beating rosberg in qualifying n race points this season.

Vettel is a very good driver no doubt and is a worthy world champ. But I am not convinced he is worthy of being held up among the greats despite four championships, which I feel flatters him a bit.

The bottom line is his car has simply been too fast for the rest to compete let alone challenge.
In 2011 Alonso came within a whisker of winning the title, and if he had done the Vettel would have looked very bad considering the advantage he had in the car and allot of mistakes he made... the rest of the time The Redbull car as simply been too fast.

Next year if Ferrari or another team manage to sort a fast car out that can challenge the RedBulls I predict Vettel will not win the championship.

He is a good driver and has done what has been needed, But if Alonso or Hamilton was in that car they would have done even better IMO.

tunes666 wrote:

He is a good driver and has done what has been needed, But if Alonso or Hamilton was in that car they would have done even better IMO.

I agree with much of what you say but the last line - well no one could have done better as Vettel has done the maximum - four world titles and that is all Alonso and Hamilton could have managed at best as well.

He's a great driver in a great car. A great driver in a good car or a good driver in a grey car couldn't do what he has

tunes666 wrote:Vettel is a very good driver no doubt and is a worthy world champ. But I am not convinced he is worthy of being held up among the greats despite four championships, which I feel flatters him a bit.

The bottom line is his car has simply been too fast for the rest to compete let alone challenge.
In 2011 Alonso came within a whisker of winning the title, and if he had done the Vettel would have looked very bad considering the advantage he had in the car and allot of mistakes he made... the rest of the time The Redbull car as simply been too fast.

Next year if Ferrari or another team manage to sort a fast car out that can challenge the RedBulls I predict Vettel will not win the championship.

He is a good driver and has done what has been needed, But if Alonso or Hamilton was in that car they would have done even better IMO.

I always thought that Senna guy was overrated. I mean, he never won a title in a bad car.

I predict when Vettel wins the title next year you'll put it down to his car being best (and poor Daniel Riccardo better get used to being called complete garbage).

Nobody wins world titles in bad cars. Senna proved his worth winning in a Lotus and good finishes in a Toleman-Hart. True he had the fastest car on the grid in his title wins but he also had fiercely competitive Alain Prost as team-mate for some of that time and other teams that were much more competitive to his McLaren than teams are just now to Red Bull.

tunes666 wrote:Vettel is a very good driver no doubt and is a worthy world champ. But I am not convinced he is worthy of being held up among the greats despite four championships, which I feel flatters him a bit.

The bottom line is his car has simply been too fast for the rest to compete let alone challenge.

In 2011 Alonso came within a whisker of winning the title, and if he had done the Vettel would have looked very bad considering the advantage he had in the car and allot of mistakes he made... the rest of the time The Redbull car as simply been too fast.

Next year if Ferrari or another team manage to sort a fast car out that can challenge the RedBulls I predict Vettel will not win the championship.

He is a good driver and has done what has been needed, But if Alonso or Hamilton was in that car they would have done even better IMO.

Thats more or less what I've been saying. Vettel's (and Red Bull's) wins have simply been too easy. Yes they have had occasional blips with technical problems or poor race strategies, but by and large they have cruised to victory for the last 4 seasons.

Thats why I said it felt weird to not see 4 consecutive titles as a monumental achievement.

I think I might have to look up Alain Prost's title wins and see how easy or difficult they were for him, just by way of comparison.

How did Vettel cruise in 2010 or 2012

2010 - mechanical issues stopped a domination
2011 - domination
2012 - not a domination, McLaren/Hamilton should of won title but he was seriously let down, hence why he left.
2013 - Average start but after summer break when Newey delivered the upgrade package - total domination.

Out of the four years, Vettel had three years of domination, however one of those years he suffered horrible mechanical issues & had to show real class in toughening it out & still claiming the title. The car still was good enough to win the title, which says everything about how good that car was when reliable & once again how poor it's rivals have been.

SteveG wrote:Wow - unfortunately got no reply to that - fell into a coma after about the 5th sentence.

Translation- you are as badly in over your head against me as your beloved Hamilton would be if granted your dream and driving against Alonso in a Ferrari or Vettel in a Red Bull, so just subtly escape before embarassing yourself further. Good idea.  

John wrote:As soon as it said `hamilton wouldn't even be able to keep up with a 44 year old schumacher`, i knew there was no point replying either. Rosberg beat schumacher & Hamilton is comfortably beating rosberg in qualifying n race points this season.

I said in a similarily hostile environment Hamilton probably wouldnt even be beating a 44 year old Schumacher. Dont take my words out of context to suit your agenda.

Hamilton is less than one race of points ahead of Rosberg (aka for all you know he could easily end the year behind him at this point, probably wont, but could happen) and had 0 wins at the halfway point of the season to 2 for Rosberg (and even today still has less for the season) so no he hasnt been that easily outdoing Rosberg either.

And 1 of Rosbergs wins came after Hamiltons tyre exploded and Vettels engine failed if were being fair.

Hamilton has beaten Rosberg fairly soundly though the familiarity factor isn't a big one these days I feel

For alonsofan's benefit can we change this topic title to Lewis Hamilton - Time To Give Credit Where It's Due.

On second thoughts....

alonsofan30 wrote:

SteveG wrote:Wow - unfortunately got no reply to that - fell into a coma after about the 5th sentence.

Translation- you are as badly in over your head against me as your beloved Hamilton would be if granted your dream and driving against Alonso in a Ferrari or Vettel in a Red Bull, so just subtly escape before embarassing yourself further.   Good idea.   

Don't flatter yourself - just can''t be arsed to read pure drivel.

GSC wrote:How did Vettel cruise in 2010 or 2012

Okay, probably over-generalising there, as they did suffer reliability issues and the stats say 2010 and 2012 were close seasons, points-wise.

What I was getting at, was that when everything was working well, RB and Vettel were still untouchable. Still good enough, that despite their problems, they still won the titles those years.

When you're on top you're unbeatable, when you're not you stay in contention. Is what champions do.