Featherweights Semi Final

First topic message reminder :

The draw randomly picked by our resident boxing admin Windy is as follows

Quarter Finals:

Vicente Saldivar bt. Kid Chocolate UD15

Jim Driscoll bt Abb Attell UD15


Salvador Sanchez bt Sandy Saddler UD15

Will Pep bt Alexis Arguello UD15


Semi Finals:

Jim Driscoll bt Vicente Saldivar SD15

Willie Pep bt Salvador Sanchez MD15

Final:

Wille Pep bt Driscoll UD15

Winner:

Willie Pep

As you can see the pre tournament favourites are all in the lower half of the draw which gives an outsider the chance of progressing to the final to battle it out to see whom the good people of 606v2 have as the greatest featherweight of all time. Many surprises in the voting itself with only two votes going to any pre 1990 boxer with Morales and Pacquiao getting a vote each with Marco Antonio Barrera failing to get even one. Not many surprises as Sanchez, Pep and Saddler received a vote from each and every poster who voted. Most surprisingly of all was to see the stylisitic southpaw Vicente Saldivar comfortably coming in 4th with many more illustrious names trailing in his wake especially Johnny Dundee a two weight world champion of the 1920's who got a single vote to his name.

To kick things off 4th Saldivar faces off against 7th seed Kid Chocolate, remember to include a breakdown of how you see the fight going with a definitive answer at the end whether it be KO, decision (unanimous, split, majority or draw) or even possibly disqualification.

I'll let the votes run until 6 o'clock then it's on to the semi finals

Sorry I've been missing out on this excellent Featherweight thread a bit too much, Ghosty. Haven't read the other predictions that have gone before for this particular match up, but I'm going to go with Pep to decision Arguello over fifteen rounds.

From the outset, Arguello appears to have the very same tools which Saddler used to upset Will 'O the Wisp. Tall, rangy, a ramrod jab and he hit harder than all but a handful of 126 lb fighters. However, I think it's fair to say that Arguello's best work, unlike Pep, came at weights higher than Featherweight. Also, Saddler imposed his physical gifts brilliantly at Featherweight - Arguello was less inclined too. Arguello liked to box and look for openings at range, and given that he was not the absolute machine at Featherweight which he turned out to be at 130 lb and later 135 lb, I don't see any way that he can beat Pep from the outside. Pep struggled horrendously with Saddler because he could rough an opponent up on the inside and physically over-power then; while Arguello was far from hopeless at this, it was hardly his forté, either.

Pep proves just a little too rounded and tricky for Arguello at 126 lb, I reckon. Will 'O the Wisp by something in the region of 145-140, for me.

I'll go for Alexis Arguello. Huge physical advantages over Pep.

Stoppage win around the 13th.

Arguello was an excellent featherweight but was arguably better at lightweight. I think Pep would win this by a wide UD just to quick and elusive for Arguello. Pep was truely awesome at being elusive but could be roughed up at times. I don't think a featherweight Arguello has the tools to do it though.

Pep UD

149-140
149-140
149-140

A rather predictable UD for Pep

146-139*3

On to the semi finals guys, it's Vicente Saldivar up against Jim Driscoll

Gorgeous semi-final match up here Ghosty, and as ever a hard one to call.

Saldivar is, as I'm sure a few know by now, one of my favourite fighters of all time, but at the same time Driscoll, although I've only seen a small amount of him on film, may just have had the right qualities to undo the Mexican.

It's a fascinating contrast of styles; the relentless pressure and body hooking of Saldivar against the (seemingly) always back-foot style of Driscoll, who relied on pure boxing skills rather than imposing his physical gifts. 'Peerless' Jim wouldn't have much of an idea on how to handle a genuinely world class southpaw, mind you, so he's going to have to adapt during the fight, putting him at a disadvantage to start with. Add to that Saldivar's incredible work rate (again, it's doubtful that Driscoll faced anything approaching that) and fabulous stamina, and it's going to be hard for the Brit to box on the back foot all night without getting drawn in to a brawl at least once.

But on the other hand, if anyone could do it, Driscoll could. We're all well-versed on his exploits against Attell, where he basically won via a shutout, as well as the dubious 'draw' decision against Moran where many still feel he was hard done by. Moreover, anyone who can return from a six year retirement, when pushing forty, already suffering with consumption (which would eventually kill him of course) and can still outbox a quality world champion such as Charles Le Doux before being felled by an out-of-the-blue body punch in the sixteenth round clearly has some phenomenal ring smarts. It was the only time he was ever knocked out, incredibly enough.

However, as I alluded to earlier, I simply think that Saldivar is just a little too unlike anything else Driscoll ever faced. I can't see a stoppage either way, but I'd back Saldivar to edge a razor-thin decision, possibly a split one, to advance to the final.

Saldivar 143-142 for me.

I agree with a great deal of Chris' analysis but, as one of ( I believe, ) only two who voted against Saldivar last time out, I'm happy enough to be in a likely minority of one in voting against him again.

I freely concede that my judgement may be a little coloured here, since I have been fascinated by Driscoll for more years than I care to remember and it was with schoolboyesque joy and excitement that I watched him, for the very first time, a couple of years ago. Notwithstanding this fascination and associate bias, I do believe that there is stone cold reason to take all of Chris' analysis and still reverse the decision, finding Driscoll getting home by the narrowest of margins.

What swings it for me is that Jim wasn't merely a wonderful technician, but he was also hard as nails. Serving his apprenticeship in the hard school of the boxing booths he would have learned to cope with much bigger men than he and scrap it out when the rough leather started flying. This, of course, was his undoing against Freddie Welsh, but it would serve him well against a man like Saldivar.

A hard night for each, ebbing and flowing, with Driscoll's wonderful smarts and toughness just about edging things and seeing him take it by a wafer thin decision.

Saldivar will be experiencing something like deja vu here. After three titanic struggles against a Welsh boxer with a left jab like a rapier and a massive heart, here comes another one. Unlike Howard Winstone, however, whose right hand lacked any power at all because of his work accident, Driscoll has more than just the single fabulous weapon in his armoury.

Driscoll has to face the same problems as Winstone did, of course. Saldivar's huge strength, his hurtful variety of punches, his endless stamina and his southpaw stance demand that the Welshman is at his very best. Driscoll gives me a slightly more solid impression than Winstone, who always looked like he was getting run over in the championship rounds of his fights with Saldivar. This solidity and basic strength serves Jim well in withstanding Saldivar's assaults slightly better and gaining him a majority decision - 144-142 twice and 143-143.

Agree with the consensus that this will be an incredibly close fight which will ultimately be won in the middle rounds, have to assume that Driscoll would lose the first 3/4 before he adapts to the pressure of a southpaw fighter. Once he does he takes control of the fight from distance, picking Saldivar off while on the back foot but at the same time the constant pressure will start to test his stamina as the championship rounds approach but having built up a considerable lead sneaks over the line with the closet of decisions 143-142, 144-141*2

This one will run until tomorrow at 6pm

Wales' own Jim Driscoll is through to the final with the tightest of split decisions

Driscoll 143-142
Saldivar 143-142
Driscoll 144-141

Which means it's to the second semi final between Salvador Sanchez and Willie Pep

I missed the first semi final!

Get your prediction in now and i'll amend?

I would have went for Driscoll by a close MD.

144-144
145-144
145-143

Thank god for that, the result stays the same haha

Pep-Sanchez. The fight between two of the greatest three 126 lb men in history produces a stinker for the ages. Sadly, their styles clash horribly. Pep is wary of Sanchez's strength and counter-punching ability and is happy to flit around the outside scoring occasionally with light flurries. Sanchez implores Pep to get involved, marches forward but is often tied up on the inside. Frustration breaks out, both are warned and deducted points for various infractions of the rules. Scoring the contest is a nightmare - clean and effective work is almost non-existent; Sanchez only rarely gets a lead that he can counter.

Finally, and to everyone's relief, it's over. The wildly fluctuating scorecards show how hard this has been to score. One judge cards it 147-139 for Pep; a second has it 145-144 for Sanchez. The deciding vote, 146-143, gives Pep a passage to the final. Sanchez is furious, protests that there wouldn't have been a fight without him and demands a rematch. No-one else is remotely interested.

As much as I like Sanchez, I have to opt for Pep in this one. I don't feel that Sanchez was good enough on the front foot to win a decision against Pep and certainly wouldn't do enough to stop him in my opinion.

Pep UD 11-4

My my, captain, it must, indeed, be a grey day where you are. I don't recall your ever having been so pessimistic.

Sadly, I do follow your reasoning, though I hadn't considered the potential for such a bore fest until I read your analysis. I would probably have fallen foul of that dreadful cliché ' chess match ' or something equally inadequate and nondescript to summarize what I think would happen.

It matters not, anyway. I believe that Pep holds the significant advantages here and is wily enough and tough enough to sneak home over the long haul.

Actually, windy, I've rarely felt as cheerful. Oddly enough, I was thinking about this fight when I woke up, which slightly surprised my wife, and I just had this vision of grizzled old newsmen booing both fighters! From that, I constructed a rather pessimistic narrative that I enjoyed even more as I wrote it.

I'm obviously just a contented misanthrope.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Actually, windy, I've rarely felt as cheerful. Oddly enough, I was thinking about this fight when I woke up, which slightly surprised my wife, and I just had this vision of grizzled old newsmen booing both fighters! From that, I constructed a rather pessimistic narrative that I enjoyed even more as I wrote it.

I'm obviously just a contented misanthrope.

An admirably graphic account, captain, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Why, I can even hear the clacking of typewriters and smell the cigar smoke as we speak.

Pep is just a bit too good for Sanchez overall, doesn't come close to hurting him but lands enough scoring punches while Sanchez lands very rarely to get the judges nod overall, Sanchez's more aggressive approach would be enough to persuade one judge.

Pep by SD

I agree that the ingredients here don't make for a great fight - though I don't think it'd be quite as dour as the captain seems to think!

I think it's a given that, with Sanchez's genuine power, Pep will be circling on the outside as much as he can, coming in with his low style now and then to score a few light punches before retreating again. I think it's inevitable that Sanchez catches up with Pep at some stage, mind you; however, I don't think that Sanchez has that phenomenal brute strength to bully Pep on the inside the way Saddler did. I think Pep would muffle most of Sanchez's work on the inside and, while the Mexican is the aggressor for the most part, the cleaner work comes from Will 'O the Wisp.

Pep by a fairly close, but not at all controversial decision. Something like 144-141 on the cards.

Will let this run until 6 o'clock tomorrow then it's onto the final

I'd go for Sanchez. The judges would side with him because he would be the aggressor. Pep had nothing to hurt him and Sanchez would also be careful for to leave himself open to counters when attacking.

10-5 to Sanchez.

azania wrote:I'd go for Sanchez. The judges would side with him because he would be the aggressor. Pep had nothing to hurt him and Sanchez would also be careful for to leave himself open to counters when attacking.

10-5 to Sanchez.

Az the same old Pep bashing. Hang your head in shame mate.

Pep to win an awful fight for me. Sanchez wasn't capable of rouging Pep up the way Saddler could. Pep would just stay outside cautious of Sanchez's punching ower and slip in and out peppering Sanchez with quick sharp combos. Sanchez would get some joy at stages of the fight but not enough to get the decision.

Pep to win a decent UD 146-141 on all three cards with no calls for a rematch.

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:I'd go for Sanchez. The judges would side with him because he would be the aggressor. Pep had nothing to hurt him and Sanchez would also be careful for to leave himself open to counters when attacking.

10-5 to Sanchez.

Az the same old Pep bashing. Hang your head in shame mate.

Ha. When you get 2 counter punchers foghting, the one who is the more aggressive normally wins. Plus SS could take liberties with Pep's lack of power.

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:I'd go for Sanchez. The judges would side with him because he would be the aggressor. Pep had nothing to hurt him and Sanchez would also be careful for to leave himself open to counters when attacking.

10-5 to Sanchez.

Az the same old Pep bashing. Hang your head in shame mate.

Ha. When you get 2 counter punchers foghting, the one who is the more aggressive normally wins. Plus SS could take liberties with Pep's lack of power.

I don't see him being able to do a Saddler on Pep and really rough him up close. Personally I think Pep would just box and move slipping most of Sanchez's shots and peppering him with quick combos. Really dull one this would be.

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:I'd go for Sanchez. The judges would side with him because he would be the aggressor. Pep had nothing to hurt him and Sanchez would also be careful for to leave himself open to counters when attacking.

10-5 to Sanchez.

Az the same old Pep bashing. Hang your head in shame mate.

Ha. When you get 2 counter punchers foghting, the one who is the more aggressive normally wins. Plus SS could take liberties with Pep's lack of power.

I don't see him being able to do a Saddler on Pep and really rough him up close. Personally I think Pep would just box and move slipping most of Sanchez's shots and peppering him with quick combos. Really dull one this would be.

I dont see it anything like a saddler/pep type fight. I see it as a very cautious fight with SS being the more aggressive and hence the winner.

Pep on points for me. I'm not sure if we saw the best of Sanchez or not due to his premature death but on the version I saw then I think Pep can outmanouver him and pinch a points decision.

The winner is Willie Pep by majority decision

144-141
143-142
143-143

The final is between Jim Driscoll and Willie Pep, the winner will be announced friday at 6

I don't see this being a classic.

Driscoll loved fighting on the back foot and Pep was no aggressor. Pep would probably draw Driscoll on to the front foot by slipping and moving while peppering him with shots. Think it would come down to who is the quickest and who is the best at slipping punches and getting their own off.

Pep is the best of all time at this imo so he wins a close dull UD.

I think Pep might just have been all wrong for Driscoll. I am slightly biased though Pep is my favourite ever fighter.

Pep UD
147-142
147-143
147-143

One for the purists, the final. Now when some reporters use that kind of expression, they mean "likely to be dull", but it needn't be the case here. I certainly don't see the same horrible clash of styles that you would get in the case of Pep-Sanchez.

Two highly educated jabs, excellent mobility and great ring smarts; no great power to speak of, it's true, but plenty to satisfy those who love the noble art in excelsis. The result seems fairly cut and dry to me. However great Driscoll is in his field (and he is), Pep is slightly greater. I can see Willie building a massive lead, then taking his foot off the gas in the middle to late rounds and having to win the last couple just to make absolutely sure of the decision.

Pep UD by scores of around 145-140.

I can't see past Pep, either. Driscoll, if even half of what we read about him is true, ( and the tiny clip of film we have would seem to confirm it, ) was a wonderful boxer, and a tough man to boot. The problem is that Pep was also these things, and then a tiny bit more.

Not a walk in the park, but ultimately a clear enough win for Pep, in my opinion, and this despite the fact that I would dearly love to make the case for Driscoll.

Can't see anything other than a clear decision for Pep in this one, did everything Driscol did but better and a lot more on top, Jim has his moments but ultimately hasn't got the power to make it count.

Willie Pep is our winner

It was probably always going to be the ' percentage ' result, Ghosty, though I can never really make up my mind between Pep and Saddler atop the feather division.

Windy I always fall more into the Pep camp although their isn't much between them. Personally I think Saddler just had the beating of Pep but I don't think he had the skills that Pep possessed. Which is why I would place Pep above him in ATG status.

Saddler was an awesome and absolutely brutal fighter with real power, Pep was just so skillful and naturally gifted but lacked Saddlers physical power. He would always have struggled with Saddler even if they had fought another four times imo.

prettyboykev wrote:Windy I always fall more into the Pep camp although their isn't much between them. Personally I think Saddler just had the beating of Pep but I don't think he had the skills that Pep possessed. Which is why I would place Pep above him in ATG status.

Saddler was an awesome and absolutely brutal fighter with real power, Pep was just so skillful and naturally gifted but lacked Saddlers physical power. He would always have struggled with Saddler even if they had fought another four times imo.

You would be in the majority there, kev. I just find it hard to dismiss Saddler's superiority over the series between them. Gun to my head and forced to choose, I'd give the nod to Pep, but I'd much rather see them even, overall.

HumanWindmill wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:Windy I always fall more into the Pep camp although their isn't much between them. Personally I think Saddler just had the beating of Pep but I don't think he had the skills that Pep possessed. Which is why I would place Pep above him in ATG status.

Saddler was an awesome and absolutely brutal fighter with real power, Pep was just so skillful and naturally gifted but lacked Saddlers physical power. He would always have struggled with Saddler even if they had fought another four times imo.

You would be in the majority there, kev. I just find it hard to dismiss Saddler's superiority over the series between them. Gun to my head and forced to choose, I'd give the nod to Pep, but I'd much rather see them even, overall.

I'm guilty of favouring Pep due to his style I'm a big fan of the defencive masters which Pep was. I have a lot of respect for Saddler though because I can't think of another featherweight in the history of the division who could have did to Pep what Saddler did.

Has to be Pep for me and although par for the course at the time Saddler wouldn't get away with half of what he did in later eras and despite winning 3 out of 4 was outboxed the majority of the time but as they say a wins a win. Pep overall for me.