Dragons V Leinster

First topic message reminder :

Well......

Dragons lose 1 player (Faletau) to the Wales Squad. (ok 2 then Coombs also)

Leinster lose EIGHTEEN. (Count 'em) If the Dragons can't win this one at home..........

Hard to make too much of a stab at a team but here goes.

O'Connell
Dundon
Bent
Roux
Denton
Ryan
Jennings
Ruddock

Cooney
Gopperth
Tuqiri
Goodman
Macken
Fitzgerald
Kirchner

Tracy
Dooley
Furlong
Marshall
Gilsenan
Mcgrath
Reid
Fanning

Lots of Academy players and a couple of NIQs returning from injury (Hopefully)

stevetynant wrote:Back to the game. From a neutral perspective I would be worried if i was a leinster supporter about the lack of ambition and adventure the side is displaying under O'connor. I know there were a lot of kids out there tonight and you were away from home but it doesn't look like the leinster of recent seasons is going to return any time soon.  

Some Leinster supporters agree with that and are anxous about it.  Some say Leinster were beginning to lose focus last season anyway - defence falling apart.  Some say it's obvious that standards would slip when a side loses three totemic figures in one go Schmidt/Sexton/Nacewa.  Some say Leinster Irish Internationals might be a tad distracted given the hole they have to dig themselves out of at INternational level with a new coach on board and some heavy hitting sides to encounter over the next few weeks... and some think O'Connor is adding his style slowly, by numbers and that he's doing what first was needed at Leinster - hoisting up defensive awareness again.

It could be any or all or even more than all those reasons.  But yeah, whatever it is - a few of us would be very concerned.  O'Connor may indeed be doing things his way and solidifying a few things before attacking the League in a more aggressively attacking way (not sure I'm believeing that).  And he may just be the wrong guy for Leinster.  Jury is out for a few weeks more.  But the players themselves have something to answer for too - that typical Leinster drive and emotional involvement seems lost for now.

Dragons play some wonderful sweet offloading and smart rugby.  I admired how much their brains were connected to their more creative exploits.

This season could be seen as one of redevelopment what with players leaving new people on board etc but Leinster still have a great all round squad with back up players that some teams/regions would die for and last night proved that.

They will still be there come the business end of the Rabo and the HC/Amlin of that I have no doubt as for us Dragons well I get tired of saying we need to sort out our front row and until we get that right we won't do much in any competition.

Notch wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I don't care what the Irish guys say about barracking the ref. I don't go in for that, but you guys lost your high horse on things like that when you booed Parks etc. The big thing is, you're all sat in front of your tv and you can't see things we can in a stand. There's nothing I dislike more than those who act so we are such exemplary supporters, as it's a lie. From the terrace, Fitzgibbon only seemed interested in pinging one side at the breakdown and the scrums he didn't have a clue. How can you ping the Dragons for allegedly walking a scrum, then on ours and the same thing happens?

I don't blame the ref though, nor do I buy into the BS about poor Leinster with their players missing. It goes to show what the difference between money to sign players and a culture set up from within your whole squad.

Great kick that. Noisy crowd apparently trying to put him off.

I was at that game- I've never been more ashamed to be an Ireland supporter. Ever since then, I've not bothered as much with trying to get tickets for international matches because to sit and be surrounded by 'rugby fans' who think that is appropriate behavior is not enjoyable. It's shameful to be part of a crowd that can't offer any positive support, just negatives. The kind of crowd you get at Irish test matches now...

There's a certain way you should act at rugby games, and thats not it. Now if I can point it out when it's my own team I'm not going to be restrained about pointing it out about other places.

It's funny how people perceive crowds, atmosphere, etc. Not necessarily you in particular Notch, but people in general on these boards and elsewhere. There's a lot given out about the Welsh (and there's a lot to be given out about in fairness), the Irish have been shown to demonstrate some of the same behaviour themselves, and the Scottish whinge about the ref just as much, if not more, than the welsh on these boards. Yet, throw the French into the mix and they seem to escape all criticism! It's all 'cauldron atmosphere', 'bonhomie', 'Gallic passion' and 'French culture'. Yet they're the ones throwing things on the pitch and chanting all sorts and giving the ref and their own players abuse. Go figure!

OK I personally don't like booing but I don't think its as bad as people on here go on about. Very few 'top class' players are actually put off by it and some even thrive on it.

Farrell said he hates the silence and I remember having the utter pleasure of talking to Jinks some years back (have talked to him often since) and he said he loved it as it meant that whatever side he was playing for at the time was doing something right and that it had riled the home side.

Jinks and many like him just block it out.

Someone did point out years ago that people perceive that the crowd trying to put the kicker off is wrong, but trying to put a wing/fullback off catching a high ball is ok?

For me I don't care if crowds boo the kicker, thats part of modern rugby, but I am proud that the provinces and (for the most part) international team are silent and that some old School tradition survives.

I don't feel too bad about other supporters with different traditions to boo the kicker, it's unpleasant but... it is annoying when the ref is on the receiving end especially when he hasn't done anything wrong.

At test matches now, thats gonna happen. It's gonna happen everywhere in the test arena.

I don't personally have a problem with Fitzgibbon, though I have noticed that he's received criticism in his last few games. Coincedence orrrr....

The Saint wrote:I don't personally have a problem with Fitzgibbon, though I have noticed that he's received criticism in his last few games. Coincedence orrrr....

But he had a good game last night. Thats the thing. Every penalty he gave, you have to say they were all fair calls.

Here looks like yer man Kirchener isn't a bad signing...

Them South Africans just love it here Rods. Ireland gets the best out of em.

Did anyone think Kirchner might be a poor signing? Yep he looked out of his depth versus the All Blacks, but there's hardly anyone of that calibre in Europe... I think he'll be a very successful player with Leinster but perhaps not the cult icon that Nacewa was. Where does ZK fit in when both Kearney's are back?

I think ZK is better than Kearney but Kearney will remain first choice. The problem with signing ZK is he was replacing Nacewa and thats not easy to do.

Which Kearney?  

From a Leinster perspective....

1) Outstanding lineout stats and variations.
2) Scrum again looked ok considering we were down to third choice TH and LH.
3) Backrow depth looks good, Ruddock and Jennings in particular looked well.
4) The backline are looking blunt, not inventive enough to go round/by defenses and not aggressive/strong enough to go through them.
5) Fitzgerald is looking good at 13 in last two matches and Kirchner looked well again.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:From a Leinster perspective....

1) Outstanding lineout stats and variations.
2) Scrum again looked ok considering we were down to third choice TH and LH.
3) Backrow depth looks good, Ruddock and Jennings in particular looked well.
4) The backline are looking blunt, not inventive enough to go round/by defenses and not aggressive/strong enough to go through them.
5) Fitzgerald is looking good at 13 in last two matches and Kirchner looked well again.

From a Dragons perspective:

Well we still above the Blues  

The Saint wrote:Which Kearney?  

Rob. I think Dave Kearney is underrated and Rob is overrated.

profitius wrote: I think Dave Kearney is underrated and Rob is overrated.

+1 ... twice

Few seasons back R Kearney was up there with the best around but after few injuries he's not got back to that level IMO.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Few seasons back R Kearney was up there with the best around but after few injuries he's not got back to that level IMO.

sadly I would have to agree. but I would add the word yet to that sentence.

On Kirchner. There were loads of people sayink he was a sh1t signing, and guys like Biltong saying how happy they were to get shut of him. I always thought he was a good signing. I hope he can cover all the outside back positions at rabonlevel, and don't see why not. He showed he was prepared to get stuck in in an away game in Wales that would not be seen as a glamour tie.

He is not Isa but ffs who is?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Few seasons back R Kearney was up there with the best around but after few injuries he's not got back to that level IMO.

sadly I would have to agree. but I would add the word yet to that sentence.


He [Kirchner] is not Isa.

and the highlighted word above?

Well for a start Isa didn't play intl rugby. that in itself was huge. The fact that he was a total ball of sex as a player in any position and totally commeite and professional was just a bonus

Commited. Stupid phone.

Rob had a poor year. But remember he was erc player of the year the season before. He was class. Hopefully he'll get that form back. And hopefully Fitzy can get back to his best too. We haven't seen him fully fit for a season in a long time.

I agree that Dave Kearney is underrated. Very well rounded player. He's got no real weaknesses really.

Happy with that result considering the team we put out but what on earth was Cooney doing box kicking from the maul at the end of the match.If ever there was a time for just giving your 12 crash ball and recycling then that was it.Crazy play and then a poor missed tackle from Macken handed the Dragons a chance to win.Hopefully Cooney will learn from it.

Overall we're only 4 point s off the top of the table and we've got some of the toughest fixtures out of the way but there is huge scope for improvement in our attacking play.We seem to have abandoned the wraparound which was a great tool for getting outside the kind of rush defense that the Dragons employed and our passing is not up to the standard it should be,hopefully the team will start working on those things in the next few months.

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote: I think Dave Kearney is underrated and Rob is overrated.

+1 ... twice

Agreed.

To be honest I think Rob is looking like one of the backs with the least form.

Darcy- IMO is playing really well
BOD- not played really
Macken- has looked good at times and is definitely much improved
Fitzgerald- has looked hungry, error free, is winning gainlines both in defense and attack
McFadden- is arguably the form back
Tiquiri- not sure whether to count him or not tbh
D. Kearney- has looked pretty good in all situations
Kirchner- still early days but is a tough nut and is very good at what he does
R.Kearney- countering has been poor, error prone, kick/catch game hasn't been as prevelant

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote: I think Dave Kearney is underrated and Rob is overrated.

+1 ... twice

Rob is turning into a 2 season wonder, a bit like Gordon D'arcy. World class in 2008/9 and 2011/12 and hovering between injured, average and mediocre the rest of the time. He should never have went on the Lions tour and spent the summer getting fit.

Dave is underrated but still has to prove he can cut it at the top level - this is a make or break season for him but he seems a more rounded player than Rob...

bedfordwelsh wrote:I get tired of saying we need to sort out our front row and until we get that right we won't do much in any competition.

Yep. We really could have done with winning this one, because our next three Pro12 fixtures are pretty tough, even with international players missing: Glasgow away, Munster at home and Connacht away. And then we have the Blues at home on Boxing Day, and we don't want to be on a losing streak going into that one if we can help it. (Although it would be the ideal match to end a losing streak, if it came to that.)

Also, I read the match report in the Western Fail on Saturday (it's a kind of masochism). Andy Howell says that we needed a try at the death to win it and that we were camped on their line, but he doesn't mention that we thought we'd scored only for it to be ruled out because the tap wasn't taken from the right place. That's a pretty big thing to leave out of a match report, seeing at the whole point of a match report is to tell people who didn't see the game what happened.

On the disallowed try: Jonny Evans moved to where the ref was to take the tap. Isn't that what scrum halves should do if they're going to take a quick penalty? Fair enough if Evans didn't take the tap from the right place, but was that because Fitzgibbon wasn't standing in the right place? Genuine question.

I'd say the point might be Luckless that refs usually move to the place where the tap should be taken from to assist in defining that place visually.  But I doubt the rules say that where the ref stands is the spot where the tap can be taken from.

I think we all know that Dragons reacted so quickly (with their tap attempt - and obviously the right thing to do with a tap is to rush it and catch the oppostition off guard) - so I think Fitzgibbon just wasn't given time to be in the right spot.

The moral being - Zippy Dragons...slow down a little

Hmm. Slow tap penalties? There's a blast from the past!

Well at least they avoid a whistle..

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I get tired of saying we need to sort out our front row and until we get that right we won't do much in any competition.

Yep. We really could have done with winning this one, because our next three Pro12 fixtures are pretty tough, even with international players missing: Glasgow away, Munster at home and Connacht away. And then we have the Blues at home on Boxing Day, and we don't want to be on a losing streak going into that one if we can help it. (Although it would be the ideal match to end a losing streak, if it came to that.)

Yeah that's not an easy run of games, I really thought that with Kingsleys connections to Russia we might have got some hairy a***d dog of a prop in by now cos that's what we need.

Chaparro's decent enough at tight head - I don't know why we didn't start with him on Friday. But even then, he's not a monster.

I think both Jones' are the right men for us and there is no doubt we have started better than last even if some of the results not come our way but there does seem to be some strange substitutions or at strange times maybe.

For e.g it seems very pre-determined that Rees will come off around the 50 minute mark but he's the one that sets the tempo.

I didn't think Richie had a great game. His quick thinking set up Wardle's try, but aside from that I thought he wasn't really on song. Jonny Evans made one great break in the second half and I still think he's a great prospect - but he's going to be hampered by not getting the game time.

I agree that we've got the right coaches in place for where we are now. There's much better team spirit compared to last season (as well as some great results) and that has to be largely down to the Joneses.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote: I think Dave Kearney is underrated and Rob is overrated.

+1 ... twice

Agreed.

To be honest I think Rob is looking like one of the backs with the least form.

Darcy- IMO is playing really well
BOD- not played really
Macken- has looked good at times and is definitely much improved
Fitzgerald- has looked hungry, error free, is winning gainlines both in defense and attack
McFadden- is arguably the form back
Tiquiri- not sure whether to count him or not tbh
D. Kearney- has looked pretty good in all situations
Kirchner- still early days but is a tough nut and is very good at what he does
R.Kearney- countering has been poor, error prone, kick/catch game hasn't been as prevelant

I think all of the Leinster kick/chase has been poor this season with the exception of Boss' box kicks (a good few of which Rob has collected this season) and I thought Cooney & Kirchner combined well in kick chase during this game.

Lote is clearly still hampered by the hamstring, he started well for us but was set back twice and I think is still nursing that injury.

Darcy is playing really well.  He is taking the ball on himself more and making ground.  But because of that the loop pass and the option plays are drying up (cos Darcy is taking those plays into contact).

Macken started very well but I think has been a best 'quiet' and at worst 'poor' for his showings in the last 3 games.

Fitz has looked really good.  But I think he still thinks he is the winger in every attacking play.  He is trying to strike when he gets possession where he might need to be a bit more of a linkman.  This has turned some of our play lateral.


I think our second row displays have been very solid this year so far considering no 'enforcer' (Hines replacement) and Cullen has been out.  I've not felt us struggle there too much and we have been up against strong tight five units so far. Dundon looks like he can step up well and is good to see with Strauss out.  LH is looking good with McGrath and Healy and TH is looking promising with Ross and Moore (also potential of Furlong). And we have the world of options in the backrow.

Just feel like this season we have just got our old 'away' side showing up every week. The team to grit out an away win like Joe had but he also had the flair side to blow away teams when we would be at home.  I think we have lost the 'flair' side.

Also on Kirchner.  I wouldn't compare him to Nacewa of last couple of seasons.  He is definitely ahead of the Isa which started off in Leinster so hopefully if we get the flair going again, we can develop him to the next Isa

I didn't think Kirchner did much in the game, other than for the try, which was more down to a mismatch in defence than to anything else (as I recall it).

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I didn't think Kirchner did much in the game, other than for the try, which was more down to a mismatch in defence than to anything else (as I recall it).

You're right.  He didn't do much.  But at least by the middle of the game, he started to do something.  Which is always a bonus when you buy in a player to help you out

Seriously though, you're right - he has a lot of proving to do yet before he goes down as a good signing or a dud.

Think Prydie will be pretty disappointed to have been palmed off by Kirchner for that try.

Clearly the coaches weren't very impressed with Richie, as they don't normally change the halfbacks unless something forces their hand. I haven't been noticing a pattern of planned subs, bar the front row changes that always occur.

The dregs fans chanting 'cheat' was probably the highlight of the game.

or lowlight?

Just on the subject of booing and whatnot. I was speaking to a lad at work who’s from Limerick. He's into soccer and has no interest in rugby at all. He was telling me he was having a few pints in a boozer in the city when somebody in the bar started to shush him and tell him to be quiet. He thought there was a funeral party after arriving in the bar. But no, he was directed toward the big screen where Ronan O'Gara was lining up a kick..

..................same as happens during a penalty shot at goal then...silence.

These football lads, soooooooooo uppity

gcBlues wrote:The dregs fans chanting 'cheat' was probably the highlight of the game.

or lowlight?

See you on Boxing Day!

Submachine wrote:Just on the subject of booing and whatnot. I was speaking to a lad at work who’s from Limerick. He's into soccer and has no interest in rugby at all. He was telling me he was having a few pints in a boozer in the city when somebody in the bar started to shush him and tell him to be quiet. He thought there was a funeral party after arriving in the bar. But no, he was directed toward the big screen where Ronan O'Gara was lining up a kick..

Ha, would well believe it. Stories like this its no wonder we are sometimes the target of Paddy Irishman jokes. What a dumbass!!

Risca Rev wrote:Think Prydie will be pretty disappointed to have been palmed off by Kirchner for that try.

Clearly the coaches weren't very impressed with Richie, as they don't normally change the halfbacks unless something forces their hand. I haven't been noticing a pattern of planned subs, bar the front row changes that always occur.

Rev,

They have pulled Richie off before when he has been going well, they even questioned Kingsley the day after on Scrum V about it and he coyly said Lyn makes those decisions.

GcBlues,

Whilst I wasn't one of the ones chanting cheat nor do I agree with it I was right in that corner of the ground and in real time there seemed no reason not to disallow what would have been a match winning try so at the time I can see the frustration.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

gcBlues wrote:The dregs fans chanting 'cheat' was probably the highlight of the game.

or lowlight?

See you on Boxing Day!

I saw the fixture list, it's a double header this year apparently. Boxing day and new years is blues/dragons, i assume this is because of the 'judgement day' later in the year.

bedfordwelsh wrote:GcBlues,

Whilst I wasn't one of the ones chanting cheat nor do I agree with it I was right in that corner of the ground and in real time there seemed no reason not to disallow what would have been a match winning try so at the time I can see the frustration.

And i agree with the frustration, booing him or calling him a sh*t ref is fair but to chant 'cheat' is a bit too far imo.

Oh and silence for the kickers, no idea when this 'unwritten rule' came in to the game but i don't care for it. I don't get involved in the jeering/chanting at a kicker but if someone wants to that's up to them, i'm not gonna tell them how to spend a day out at the rugby.

To be honest I don't like the booing kickers etc but it doesn't overly bother me and like calling the ref whatever I guess like the players they get use to blocking it out.

I've heard Irish fans do it on numerous occassions when things don't go their way despite their 'outrage' at it.

Its all part of the pantomime -hows it different to cheering on your team or the Hakka ?

Equally not everyone was quiet back in the day.  There are plenty of yester-year matches that you can watch back and hear the boo's and shouts during kicks at goal. From all nations.

Ireland v Wales, Lansdowne Road, 1976. The booing of Allan Martin as he lines up a penalty for Wales is so bad that Nigel Starmer-Smith mentions the 'unsporting jeers.'